Uh-oh, Randi said Rove's grandpa helped built Birkenau concentration

[thereismore]

camp. Is this the reference to the Nazi "Roverer" guy, allegedly Rove's grandfather? This could be a very hot potato. Is there any proof that Rove's grandfather was a Nazi (other than a wild guess)?

[MADem]

1. I think it is bullshit. Rove's name is NOT actually ROVE

ROVE was the gay stepfather. The biological father is shrouded in mystery. We know that Rove met him, but we don't know if he is still alive.

[panader0]

2. Real father- Porky Pig

[MADem]

5. He got daddy's looks, then, but not his personality!

:rofl:

[calimary]

4. Well then it sounds like we have a winner EITHER way.

Gay or Nazi sympathizer? Ye takes yer choice!

I say we throw whatever there is at him. Remember the guidance of LBJ - one of the shrewdest politicians ever. Level WHATEVER charges at your opponent. Doesn't matter if they're outlandish. The point is to MAKE THE OPPONENT DENY IT. FORCE HIM/HER TO DENY IT. Once they feel they have to comment no it, the frame is set, nailed together, sanded, and varnished. The point is to MAKE THEM DENY IT. Once they do, they're working from YOUR frame. It immediately puts them on defense. And the original charge WILL stick in the back of the mind, no matter what they do.

Actually, if you can get the rumor or whatever out far enough, you win even if the opponent doesn't want to take the bait. I'll bet there are still people in South Carolina and environs who suspect, deep down, that John McCain really did father a black child out of wedlock, even though it was a rumor campaign and totally unfounded. He never really went after it to nip it in the bud, or to comment on it at all. And having said nothing about it, it therefore was allowed to stand, and to sink in. Same thing with what the swifties did to John Kerry. He was (ill-)advised to "rise above it" and not dignify those charges with any comment. Well, that's what he did. And so everything the swifties threw at him was allowed to stand, and to sink in. By the time he finally woke up and realized it might be a fatal blow, it was too late. The impression had already sunk in with a lot of gullible people. His campaign never recovered from it.

Who gives a fuck if it's not necessarily true, or if it's not the biological father, or whothehell it is in rove's background? WHO GIVES A FUCK? It's FAR more important to get it OUT THERE where it either 1) has to be responded to, or 2) is avoided, and therefore allowed to sink in and take hold.

EITHER WAY it's a winner.

Fight 'em like they fight us. Dirty. It's unfortunate that campaigning has had to come to this. But if it WINS, WHAT DO WE CARE, REALLY????? If it puts the enemy at a disadvantage, WHAT DO WE CARE, REALLY??? If it makes them play defense, if it forces them to react and to deny, WHAT DO WE CARE, REALLY???

[thereismore]

8. I would like a press person ask on camera: "Is it true that WGB's

grandfather and/or Rove's grandfather were Nazi sympathizers?"

It's just a question, right? Innocent, deadly question.

[calimary]

14. You can file it in the "I'm just SAYING..." file.

Please understand: The Dark Siders WILL NOT HESITATE to throw ANYTHING against our guys that they think might stick. Even if it only sticks with a single listener or viewer. They'll try ANYTHING. They're not above ANYTHING. Look, I don't like that anymore than you do. I think it's dirty pool. But if that's how the game is played, then that's how it's played, and we would be fools not to note the rules of the game, IF we want to play it to WIN. If we don't want to play those rules, we'll have to redefine and reframe the game. And you don't get into any position to do that UNTIL AND UNLESS YOU WIN, and then YOU are the one setting the tone, the terms, and the agenda. We're not there yet. FIRST, we have to WIN.

[MADem]

10. Well, here's the thing. The gay stepfather was adored by Rove

The only thing that is workable in that aspect is that he waited until his beloved parent, that he thought was his biological father as he was growing up, was DEAD before he orchestrated the "Bush Gay Bashing Fest" that became such a feature of the GOP campaigns.

The salient point is HYPOCRISY. But we knew that about him already.

The other odd thing is that he also orchestrated the "GWB Reaches Out to Fundies Fest" and Rove is said to be AGNOSTIC. Hyprocisy, again. But what else is new?

An old political story notes that LBJ once called an opponent a pigfucker--not generally, but specifically. His campaign manager pointed out to Lydon that he KNEW that wasn't true, so why, then, did LBJ make the charge? Lydon's response? "Ah jus' wanted ta make the sumbitch DENY it!" http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/2002-04-03/news/smith.html

I dunno, I don't mind fighting dirty, but I don't like going after dead parents, especiallly ones without nefarious agendas while they lived. It's too GOP for me. By all accounts, his stepdad raised him right, so there's no percentage in going after the dead dad for any reason. The guy was not closeted, he was OUT. The mother, it is said, committed suicide after he left. Supposedly, she 'blamed' herself for 'turning' him gay, or whatever. Nowadays, they'd give her meds and she'd be fine.

And I don't like basing a charge on lies, so the Nazi thing doesn't float with me, either. The stepdad, from whom Rove got his name, was NORWEIGIAN. The GOP pulled that bullshit way too often with Clinton. I like to think we are better than they are.

There must be some horribly warped genetic code up in there to cause Karl to be the way he is. He just has no soul. But he's done enough shitty things all by himself to find cause to excoriate him.

[calimary]

15. A good post from the "Make them deny it" file.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2055434&mesg_id=2055566


And MADem, you oughta know! It's YOUR post! Well worth revisiting. :thumbsup:

[thereismore]

16. Thanks for the info. I didn't know half of these things. nt

[DemInDistress]

3. then rover needs to sue randi. sounds slanderous to me,..

calling one's grandpa a a nazi sympathizer who constructed death houses for the jews is "fighting words"

sort of like grand poppy prescott bush which happened to be true.. nazis abound in today's whitehouse.

wasn't it on 9/11/90 poppy bush called for "The New World Order"?


Its here..

[thereismore]

6. yep, sounds slanderous to me. It came from Bob Fitrakis, who I respect,

but I am afraid it doesn't wash (the Rove charge). The Prescott Bush charge is much more solid I think.

[DemInDistress]

12. ok...if fitrakis claims rover granddad built death chambers

that's slanderous and rover better deny the claim. suppose he (Bob) said karl was a pedophile and that wasn't true bet karl be sending over or calling randi to retract that statement.


anyway, glad you agree with prescott bush.. the whole family tree of bush's are nazi's damn those bush's to hell.

[leesa]

20. The bank Bush was in charge of financed the construction of Auschwitz

Of course, this was when it was used for ultra-cheap labor barracks in the beginning.

[Catherine Vincent]

7. If she said that, then she's next for the cut in due time. n/t

[thereismore]

9. she did say it. nt

[Sinti]

11. The problem is nobody gives a damn if they are Neo-Nazis themselves

much less whether their fathers or grandfathers were Hitler's investors/bankers, or builders of death camps. If they got a hummer from an intern, that might get everyone's dander up though.

[DavidDvorkin]

13. Irrelevant even if true

The idea that guilt is inherited from one's ancestors is repellent.

[HuffleClaw]

17. true enough. however, THEY use this themselves constantly

'guilt by association' is a commandment of the far right. that said, i'm not sure responding in kind is really the right thing to do.

[leesa]

21. No, it's who they revere that is important. The Bush's were VERY proud

of Prescott and considered him a very worthy, admirable man. They knew where their money came from.

[PresidentWar]

18. Fits. Rove himself looks like the reincarnation of Martin Bormann

[alfredo]

22. You nailed it.

[Ninja Jordan]

19. Waste of time (nm)

eom