Kucinich Supporters backing Dean?

[frustrated_lefty]

"One trend that could work in Dean's favor in Wisconsin: A flurry of e-mails and newspaper editorials this week among Dennis Kucinich's supporters, who are urging others to rally behind Dean as the party's more viable leftist."

Any truth to this?

Badgers vs. Wolverines

Quote is from the last two paragraphs on the page.

[Terwilliger]

1. I think any Kucinich supporter that says Dean is a "viable leftist"

is smoking some Dean Scream Jim Beam

[XanaDUer]

2. LOL!

That's good.

[IrateCitizen]

3. Yeah. What Terwilliger said. (nt)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. What you both said. nt

[vision]

24. I am a DK supporter

I like Dean second to Kucinich.

Is he a liberal like Dennis? No but at least he has been fighting the Republicans and thier enablers in the Democratic party for the past three years.

I would rather have somebody with passion and that can scream and laugh than somebody who has to weigh the political ramifacations of every act.

[Terwilliger]

29. Well, I have nothing particularly against Dean...

but he's no leftist...that's all I'm sayin'

[blondeatlast]

63. HAH! Left as my RIGHT piggy-toe, Dean is.

[progressivebydesign]

4. It's a good fit.

I've been surprised to see people thinking that DK supporters should go to Edwards or Kerry. I'd think Dean or Clark would be a better fit idealogically.

[revcarol]

9. DK is unique.

Individuals will decide what to do, but as far as a movement toward Dean, FERGIT IT!!

Sounds almost like how Republican operatives work...convince people that their best choice is not their best choice.

[mmonk]

14. DK supporters should stay

as long as DK stays.

[mmonk]

10. correct

also, I read in the Raleigh N&O that Lieberman contributors may be contributing to Edwards now. That's not the direction DK supporters should go ideologically. Definitely Dean or Clark.

[no name no slogan]

13. Not really for most of us.

The only thing Dean had in common with Kucinich was opposition to the IWR (and it can be argued that even Dean wasn't THAT opposed to it-- he did support Biden-Lugar, after all).

But, now that we're occupying Iraq, Dean and Kucinich have very different positions. Dean wants to keep US troops in Iraq, while DK advocates replacing the US occupying army with UN peace keepers. Dean advocates continued US influence in Iraq's affairs, while DK advocates that the US should relinquish control to the Iraqi people.

Economically, Dean and DK couldn't be further apart. Dean is a fiscal conservative while DK is clearly an economic liberal/populist.
On the economy, DK has much more in common with Edwards than he does with Dean.

Also, a lot of DK supporters come from the peace activist community, who are generally quite aprehensive of ex-generals. Especially one like Clark, who has spoken at the School of the Americas, has not spoken out against depleted uranium (DU) weapons, and may have done some questionable things in the Balkans (like bombing civilian targets).

[Desertrose]

20. there IS no substitute for Dennis Kucinich....

I keep thinking take a piece of Dean and a piece of Edwards...maybe a touch of Clark ( altho I'm not sure what touch) and put em together on the issues and you still don't get the quality and class of Dennis Kucinich .

Lets face it...he's one of a kind and the best we got...I just can't make a second choice when we already have the best and the best shot to beat booshwa!

Dennis:yourock:

Peace
DR

[mmonk]

21. I would vote

for DK if reversed but I may be more practical. Ex generals have been pretty good presidents by the way. Being for peace for the sake of peace doesn't gaurantee peace. It has to be guarded.

[no name no slogan]

23. Respectfully, I disagree

ex-Generals make lousy presidents. Look at Eisenhower. He didn't do anything for the country, other than preside over a fairly moderate-growing peacetime economy.

Grant, OTOH, was a complete disaster. He was a drunk and incompetant. He was nearly removed from office for his incompetancy, IIRC.

IMHO, generals and ex-military commanders are at a disadvantage when the move to government. A military commander is used to having her/his orders carried out immediately, and exactly as they are commanded. Government is nothing like this. There are compromises made by everybody at all levels, and things rarely turn out exactly as the President requests them to be.

We had this problem in MN with Jesse Ventura. He was uncompromising, stubborn, and had a horrible attitute when working with the legislature. Consequently, nothing got done after his one-year "honeymoon" wore off, and now the state's in serious disarray.

[mmonk]

27. Eisenhower gave us

a most memorable quote and lesson concerning the warning about the military industrial complex. Washington understood the dangers in too much concentrated power in the executive branch. To do no harm to a peacetime economy is quite good as well. Ideological civilians get us in more trouble. They have no common experience in what commitment to a conflict really entails.

[Tinoire]

53. Thanks NNS. That pretty much my view too. n/t

[blondeatlast]

64. You'd be wrong.

[codegreen]

5. Dean supporters should go to Kucinich

if not now, then after Dean drops out.

[WI_DEM]

6. my feeling is that some DK supporters will vote for John Kerry

before they would vote for Howard Dean so to make sure that Kerry defeats Dean in Wisconsin so they will be the only anti-war candidate (other than Sharpton) in the race after Wisconsin--in hopes that Dean's supporters will turn to DK in remaining contests and maybe help him pick up some delegates.

[twilight]

35. you are right!

A member of DK's campaign called me up and we talked about it and yep, Kerry anyday over Dean. "WE" don't like Dean with his arrogance and big mouth. The doctor is OUT in my book and many other DK supporters sorry to let you know.

Now, will Dean supporters vote for Kucinich? :evilgrin:



:dem: :kick:

[revcarol]

45. And Kerry is NOT arrogant?

That Kucinich campaign person should be fired, YESTERDAY!! As long as DK is in the race, any member of his campaign should be for him.

A Kerry undercover operative?

[no name no slogan]

7. I'm in MN, and this is the first I've heard of it

I highly doubt that this is happening on a large scale, if it is happening at all.

For one thing, Dean is not a leftist-- unless you're Dick Cheney or Pat Robertson. Dean and Kucinich don't really have any common positions on the issues. Dean is a solid centrist, while Kucinich is decidedly more liberal.

I know of very few Kucinich supporters in this part of the world who would support Dean at this stage, especially since DK has vowed to stay in the race until the convention.

This story sounds like it's based on anecdotal evidence: an email here, a letter to the editor there, etc.

[truizm]

11. Agreed...

Dean is a centrist and to the right of center in economics.

[Tinoire]

54. or really wishful thinking n/t

[plurality]

8. why would they do that?

If they cared about viability they wouldn't be supporting Kucinich in the first place, and two if Dean drops out, there could an influx of Dean supporters coming over to the Kucinich camp.

I don't buy it, it reminds me of all the outraged 'Kuciitizens' that were posting on the blog after Iowa that ended up being Dean supporters.

[napi21]

16. I'm a Dean supporter and I would never consider voting for DK.

His ideas are much like Al Sharpton...good, but require too radical a change for most Americans to accept all at one time.

Remember Dean saying his health care plan wasn't the way he would have designed it from scratch, but he wants a plan that can pass. I feel the same thing applies to DK & AS.

[Nadienne]

82. I wonder how many people

just plain don't know the details about Universal Single-Payer Health Care...

If you think it's good for you, don't you think there are others who would agree? Maybe they just don't know the details. Maybe their information comes with spin. Somehow, the truth has to get to them. And they they will be more accepting of it, more receptive to this change, if they were told the truth.

BTW, labels like "radical" don't do progress any favors.

[eyesroll]

15. I don't know...

The Kucinich organization in Milwaukee is one of the most dedicated groups I've ever seen. They've built a lot, with very few resources or name recognition. I can't imagine they'd say, now, "well, we've built this great grassroots organization and we really like our guy and we've been really committed to him until this very second so we're going to ditch it all for the sake of a candidate some of us like marginally better than the others and some of us see as not-quite-as-bad-as-Bush-but-still-bad."

I'm a Dean supporter (who knows he's not leftist) who can't see it...

[MuseRider]

17. I can't imagine.

I will say that some of us do not want to see Dean out of this yet. DK is going to the convention but still needs all of our votes.

I do not like Dean however he is very vocal against Bush* and we still need that.

[BurtWorm]

18. That journalism smells kind of fishy.

It makes it sound as though DK supporters are simply deciding to switch to Dean, because their guy's down and out and they prefer someone "left" who has a chance to actually win. What I could believe is that they believe a Dean win in WI could keep the race going long enough for Kucinich to continue acquiring delegates and be a force at the convention. That would be smart strategy for them. It's very difficult to herd cats or Democrats of any kind though, least of all ones who are partisans' partisans.

[justinpower]

78. I agree Burtworm

DK needs as many candidates to stay in the race as posible. The dispersion of delegates would lead to a brokered convention where we could put forth certain platform points as leverage. I for one hope Dean stays in to the end.

[stickdog]

19. Since when do Kucinich supporters care about viability?

Kucinich is in the race to give the new age, hippy-left true believers a paid off, good boy establishment candidate who will (in the end) heartily support the corporate sanctioned and media endorsed Kerry/Edwards ticket.

It's the exact same thing they're doing with African Americans and Sharpton.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

30. How deliciously ironic. (nt)

[VelmaD]

31. *snort*

That was too damn funny. *smooches*

Like my momma says, "God Almighty himself couldn't find it with both hands and a radio-telescope."

[IrateCitizen]

33. Stickdog: DLC and Kucinich cut from the same cloth

That juicy tidbit from my thread regarding the DLC article equating Kucinich and Rumsfeld on Iraq.

It's one of those things that is so far out in left field all you can do is give a puzzled "huh", without even really laughing at how ridiculous it is.

Yup. Dennis Kucinich sacrificed his political career in Cleveland, stood against the IWR and NAFTA/WTO, stuck up for the "little guy" his entire political career -- only to turn on us all and become a corporatist in the end.

That's quite a grand scheme, and I for one feel duped for having been foolish enough to fall for it. ;-)

[stickdog]

38. Kucinich cut a deal to help DLC favorite Edwards for ZERO delegates.

Kucinich's press secretary is an on-record hardcore supporter of DLC favorite Kerry.

What do you think will happen to Kucinich?

If Kerry/Edwards win the nomination (as per the consistent 2000-2004 DLC plan), what do you think Kucinich's next move will be?

I think he's been paid off with the promise of a convention speech if he just does what he's told from here on in. He can say whatever he wants -- and I really love the things he says -- but he has to do what he's told.

[WilliamPitt]

41. You continue to amuse

with your dearth of knowledge about which you speak. :)

[VelmaD]

44. It's nice to know...

that you (well, actually your detractors) will continue to provide free entertainment around here...even while you're on the road with the campaign. :-)

[stickdog]

48. Why not enlighten me then, Will?

Why the kindergarten stuff instead?

[tinanator]

72. how do you talk to someone like yourself?

Groundless assertions passed off as counterfeit wisdom hardly beg for
detailed analysis. Scoffing is fairly appropriate, and I think its about time that was recognized in the forum rules. Unless, of course, you would like to respect Kucinich and his supporters?

[stickdog]

74. By stepping up to the plate with a decent argument.

It's easy. Lots of people try it around here now and then.

[tinanator]

81. substitute facts for supposition then

if possible.

[Terwilliger]

43. please stick...have one on me

:tinfoilhat:

[blondeatlast]

65. Three little words:

:wtf:

Dean will get my vote if, and only if, he is the nominee. I'm no "new-ager," either (besides, so what?). If you picture a Kucinich supporter, I wouldn't be what you'd picture, but I sure as hell am one--all the way.

[stickdog]

68. I can only go by the meetups I've attended.

I realize that most Kucinich supporters on this board don't fit the mold.

But that's a-whole-nother topic ...

[GumboYaYa]

50. Perhaps you can try to be a little more insulting next time.

[charlie]

37. Man, oh man...

I'm not happy about Dean's troubles, I was glad to see him giving the near-somnolent party a good kick in the ass. But watching some of you guys flailing and lashing out at everyone who had the temerity to back someone other than the One True Candidate is a sorry, sorry sight.

[stickdog]

39. Yes. In contrast, the "Anybody But Dean" movement was admirable.

Destroying Dean over NOTHING WHATSOEVER was just democracy in action.

On the other hand, pointing out the rigged nature of the game makes for a sorry, sorry sight.

[charlie]

46. Kucinich destroyed Dean?

You're out of your tree.

[stickdog]

49. Your strawman is out of his tree.

I didn't say the Kucinich destroyed Dean.

When the corporate media destroyed Dean's candidacy as well as his supporters' dangerous newfound sense of political empowerment, it was roundly cheered around these parts as true democracy in action.

I was merely contrasting that with your negative characterization of my much weaker brand of the same medicine.

[charlie]

51. ?

So you're whacking Kucinich for what the media did to Dean? I don't get it.

And schadenfreude over Dean's troubles isn't the prevailing sentiment in the Kucinich camp here, so why the hostility? Again, I don't get it.

[stickdog]

55. I'm whacking Kucinich supporters for supporting his past and (I suspect)

future compromises with the two corporate selected, media approved, establishment candidates.

That's all. I like what DK says in his campaign. But I don't like what he's done in his campaign.

[Terwilliger]

56. I appreciate your analysis, stick

but "whacking" their support of Kucinich and the party is like "whacking" Dean supporters for their support of Dean and the party

I have not supported Kucinich's future possible courses of action, but I support him now and will throughout his campaign.

[stickdog]

61. Here's my gig. When it comes to telling Americans the blunt truth

that the corporate media and the Bush enabling Dems have been hiding from us, only Kucinich, Sharpton and Dean pass the muster. Clark comes close, but Kerry is far too safe, nuanced and politic while Edwards is a "New American Optimist."

Our candidate simply must have the balls to at least ADDRESS the honest, disturbing truth about:

the 2000 "election"
9/11
the Patriot Act
the anthrax attack
the 9/11 "investigation"
black box voting
the hugely irresponsible government growth under Bush
the ridiculous tax giveaways for the rich
Iraq
the regressive nature of FICA

I won't vote for a candidate who plays by the same corporate media and pink tutu Dem rules that enabled Bush to hijack this country.

We need to hear some unvarnished TRUTH from our candidate and we need to hear it NOW. Playing nice in another vain effort to woo people who might be "disturbed" by the disgusting truth may just end democracy as we know it. That's what's at stake here, and it's far more important that this or that vote, this or that issue statement or this or that unobtainable campaign promise.

Therefore, I fail to see how Kucinich or any of his supporters can possibly align themselves with Edwards or Kerry in any way, shape or form.

[charlie]

58. Horsetrading for delegates

Neither Kucinich nor Edwards was expected to do well in Iowa. And being candidates with different constituencies, both would be viable in different regions -- Kucinich doing better in college towns, Edwards in rural areas. A swap deal in that scenario would make it likely that both could get at least some delegates. Dean, on the other hand, was expected to outdistance everyone. He wasn't going to be inviable in many places. A deal with him would've meant that Kucinich would've had to hand over all his voters for no delegates in return. If he did that, Kucinich may as well have not campaigned or run in the Iowa caucuses.

Who's the other corporate selected media approved establishment candidate?

[stickdog]

66. If Kucinich left his supporters to their own devices, Dean would have

had a MUCH better shot at beating (or at least staying right on the heels of) Edwards.

Instead, Kucinich simply GAVE his hardearned support to the the most pro-war, anti-hard truth candidate in the field.

For NOTHING! Not a single Democratic convention delegate and less than 2% of the vote!

So Dennis gets nothing, and we get a fake horse race between the two most boring, most similar and most timid candidates in the entire field when it comes to telling Americans the blunt and ugly truth that they so desperately need to hear.

Thanks, Dennis.

[tinanator]

70. there it is, Naderizing the best candidate in the field

An entirely new industry springs up.

[stickdog]

76. I'm describing what happened. You might defend the strategy, but surely

you can't be ecstatic with the boring, truth deficient, Kerry vs. Edwards corporate media endorsed "horse race" outcome. Can you?

[charlie]

75. You're gonna have to show me

where Kucinich voters not caucusing with Edwards voters would've given Dean a "MUCH better shot." The gap between Dean and Edwards was too wide for me to believe Kucinich made enough of a difference to change Dean's fortunes from within reach of Edwards to a double-digit blowout.

And again, Edwards wasn't expected to do well, Dean was going to own the state, so the vote swap wasn't a foolish idea at the time. And NOOOO, it wasn't done to keep Dean down, for pete's sake. No one had any idea that Dean was going to do as poorly as he did.

[stickdog]

77. No one except the tracking pollsters, that is.

And everybody knows candidates are never up to speed on that kind of thing. Right?

Look, the bottom line is that Kucinich helped knock out Dean and make this a DLC vs. DLC race. It didn't help him one iota, but it sure helped Edwards and it sure hurt Dean.

[charlie]

79. Nope.

Polls right up to the caucuses showed the race tightening, but even Zogby had Dean neck and neck with Kerry and substantially ahead of Edwards. There wasn't much warning that Dean would get trounced.

And again, the final spread between Dean and Edwards was 18 - 32. You're telling me that Kucinich could've made that less than a blowout?

We're not ever going to agree on this, so I'll back out. Nice talking to you.

[stickdog]

84. The last day of tracking polls had Kerry with 29%.

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=785

Dean had 22% and Edwards had 21%.

And the CNN entrance poll (which is supicious in that it showed a historically low percentage of undecided arrivals) :

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/IA/index.html

had Kerry at 35%, Edwards at 26%, Dean at 21% and Kucinich at 4%.

Understanding the 15% caucus rule, how can you possibly suggest that Kucinich's alliance with Edwards was a meaningless factor in the Edwards/Dean battle for second?

[charlie]

89. Ack

Didn't want to get back into this (I had to go take a shower. It's early in the morning over here :))

I see I was wrong about Zogby. The last one I saw was the second to the last one on the chart.

I didn't say that Kucinich was a "meaningless factor", though. I said his deal didn't keep Dean from having a "MUCH better shot" at containing Edwards. Edwards probably benefitted more from the instances where Kerry gave him his voters that exceeded the number for maximum delegates for a group.

[Nadienne]

83. At that time, Dean was the front-runner

and no one thought he would need Kucinich's help.

And I certainly didn't think Kerry would have walked away with the lead.

Mea-friggin-culpa.

[stickdog]

85. No. Kerry was the leader and Dean & Edwards were tied for second.

Is this the Democratic equivalent of "who could have suspected that they'd fly them into buildings?"

[no name no slogan]

87. Two misconceptions

1) You assume that DK supporters would support Dean if DK were not running or not viable. NOT TRUE. Dean's economic policies are the farthest right of any of the other remaining candidates. In fact, most people would clain they're even to the right of Clinton's.

Most Kucinich folk I know are VERY interested in fiscal issues, and tend to be quite liberal as well-- maybe even more than foreign policy issues. Dean's brand of fiscal conservatism DOES NOT appeal to these people, while DK's economic populism (no NAFTA/WTO, full employment economy, universal single-payer healthcare, etc.) does.

So please don't assume that just because Dean spoke out against the IRW that DK supporters automatically support Dean as their second choice. It is very far from the truth.

2) IIRC, Dennis DID get delegates to the national convention from Iowa. Of course we won't know for sure until the Iowa state Democratic convention.

[stickdog]

90. And what of the truth? What about the things that need to be said?

Here's my gig. When it comes to telling Americans the blunt truth that the corporate media and the Bush enabling Dems have been hiding from us, only Kucinich, Sharpton and Dean pass the muster. Clark comes close, but Kerry is far too safe, nuanced and politic while Edwards is a "New American Optimist."

Our candidate simply must have the balls to at least ADDRESS the honest, disturbing truth about:

the 2000 "election"
9/11
the Patriot Act
the anthrax attack
the 9/11 "investigation"
black box voting
the hugely irresponsible government growth under Bush
the ridiculous tax giveaways for the rich
Iraq
the regressive nature of FICA

I won't vote for a candidate who plays by the same corporate media and pink tutu Dem rules that enabled Bush to hijack this country.

We need to hear some unvarnished TRUTH from our candidate and we need to hear it NOW. Playing nice in another vain effort to woo people who might be "disturbed" by the disgusting truth may just end democracy as we know it. That's what's at stake here, and it's far more important that this or that vote, this or that issue statement or this or that unobtainable campaign promise.

This is why the media Wellstoned Dean. And this is why the media continuously lampoons and derided Kucinich. Because we aren't aloud to discuss the truth any more. See, truth makes us "angry" and "unelectable."

Therefore, I fail to see how Kucinich or any of his supporters can possibly align themselves with Edwards or Kerry in any way, shape or form.

[blondeatlast]

67. He destroyed himself; he isn't as liberal as the current delegate leader.

That's why I could never support him, unless he's the Democratic candidate--which he surely won't be.

Thankfully!

[stickdog]

73. How did Dean destroy himself? By getting mercilessly attacked by

the media and the other candidates over nothing?

By having Gep suicidally trash him for two months and then throw his support to Kerry while Kucinich threw his to Edwards?

And what about the telling Americans the unvarnished truth that the media has been suppressing?

Dean does it. Kucinich does it.

Kerry & Edwards play by the media's rules and confine their criticism to safe topics while avoiding the fundamental lies that have been foisted on by a complicit media (as well as a generally spineless opposition party) since the 2000 coup.

How can you support folks who harshly criticized Dean for saying the capture of Saddam doesn't make us any safer and that people deserve fair trials before they are executed?

[blondeatlast]

80. So the media matter to you. It doesn't to me.

I read the news in the Guardian and form my own opinions.

[HFishbine]

93. Then you missed an important event in this race

Since you didn't see what transpired, you don't know the degree to which the Amerikan media monopolies took Dean down.

[Whitacre D_WI]

22. Well, I'm on the state and the metro Milwaukee DK email lists...

...and I've seen nothing of the sort. Can't imagine the good folks in Madison or Milwaukee would take part in it (they are DIE-HARD Kucitizens -- some of them so much so that they probably will vote Green instead of Dem. in the GE; which is something I would not do).

Of course, I'm also on the Edwards and Dean email lists, and several other political lists, so I may have missed something. Doubt it, though.

[WilliamPitt]

25. First I've heard of it

There have been blizzards of emails among Kucinich supporters urging others to support Kucinich. That I can confirm. :)

[blm]

42. Who would benefit from floating a rumor like this?

#^$@& *^ %$^* * &%$ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blondeatlast]

69. Uh-huh--I thought so, too! Sneaky, and not terribly effective, though.

[corporatewhore]

26. I am no dean fan dont think hes a leftist but i hope that he stays in the

race becuase he has created a very strong grassroots org and i love it that he doesnt care about being percieved as impolite and tells it like it is like when he told wolfie Yes the news is only here to entertain and wolfie had the most priceless expression on his face thaat seemed to say youve got to be kidding me hes callin it out for what it is!Betcha kerry the Electable wouldnever have the gut to do that!

[iowapeacechief]

32. Implausible hearsay...

...at best. Disinformation, more likely.

[twilight]

34. no truth to this

as a member of DK's campaign, I can tell, you, DK has NOT endorsed anyone! If he does, it will be EDWARDS!






:dem: :kick:

[iowapeacechief]

36. It will be Edwards?

Based on what?

Surely you said that part totally on your own.

[Mairead]

40. AOL!

It would be amazing if he dropped out and endorsed anyone at all. Disheartening, too, because there's nobody standing who's worthy of his endorsement, except possibly Sharpton.

(I do really wish people--especially the pro-DK ones!--would get past the mistaken idea that Iowa in any way involved any kind of 'endorsement'. It was nothing more than an attempt to exchange a tactical, apolitical, mutually profitable backscratch. Two people can exchange a backscratch without even wanting to sleep together, much less announce their engagement!)

[tinanator]

47. aint the pro-DK people whose noses got bent

But oh the outrage! Conceivably the arrangement kept the ball in play and did benefit both candidates and campaigns. It may have hurt Dean, didnt help Kerry and showed a practical side and signs of solidarity between the two campaigns. Heartwarming, actually. Thanks for your hard work Dennis, you are taking your place in history alongside the greats. I can only imagine what the Democratic electorate would do if MLK or RFK were still with us...

[blondeatlast]

71. It's a long tradition in Prez elect politics--

I've been a voter since 1977, and always an active campaigner. I wasn't the least bit bothered by it, since I had seen it happen numerous times.

[stickdog]

86. The point isn't that DK traded votes. The point is that he gave them all

away to ensure that one of the few candidates who, like Dennis, tells the unvarnished truth about the Bush Administration dropped into third place. In doing so, he helped the media promote the annointed DLC Kerry vs. DLC Edwards horse race. If Kucinich had actually gotten any delegates out of the deal, I would be able to understand it. But he didn't get a single delegate!

When it comes to telling Americans the blunt truth that the corporate media and the Bush enabling Dems have been hiding from us, only Kucinich, Sharpton and Dean pass the muster. Clark comes close, but Kerry is far too safe, nuanced and politic while Edwards is a "New American Optimist."

Our candidate simply must have the balls to at least ADDRESS the honest, disturbing truth about:

the 2000 "election"
9/11
the Patriot Act
the anthrax attack
the 9/11 "investigation"
black box voting
the hugely irresponsible government growth under Bush
the ridiculous tax giveaways for the rich
Iraq
the regressive nature of FICA

I won't vote for a candidate who plays by the same corporate media and pink tutu Dem rules that enabled Bush to hijack this country.

We need to hear some unvarnished TRUTH from our candidate and we need to hear it NOW. Playing nice in another vain effort to woo people who might be "disturbed" by the disgusting truth may just end democracy as we know it. That's what's at stake here, and it's far more important that this or that vote, this or that issue statement or this or that unobtainable campaign promise.

Therefore, I fail to see how Kucinich or any of his supporters can possibly align themselves with Edwards or Kerry in any way, shape or form.

But that's just me. I'd love to hear what you think about this.

[iowapeacechief]

91. What do you mean: "gave them all away"???

I don't recognize the Edwards-Kucinich alliance in your message, so I don't think you understand it. What do you think Kucinich "gave away"?

I was in a Kucinich group where our two best choices were 1) join with the Edwards people and send one of our people forward in the process labeled Edwards or 2) count as zero and win nothing.

What was your complaint?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. This DK supporter is not for Dean

and it has nothing to do with being a "secret Kerry operative" or a "DLC mole" or anything like that. (Those of you who have seen my posts on this board over the past three years know that the very idea of my promoting the DLC agenda is about as likely as Indiana Green turning Republican.) I simply don't like the disconnect between Dean's talk and his walk. Kerry is what he looks like: an establishment Dem with lots of experience and knowledge.

If DK drops out before the convention, I will most likely wait and see who the nominee is. I'll vote ABB, but I'll put my energies into supporting local candidates and generalized GOTV activities.

[genius]

57. Never. Most of us consider Dean the enemy.

Dean's lies and campaign tactics mainly focussed on keeping Dennis down. Dean deserves to lose big time.

[stickdog]

88. So now that Dean has no money to spread his "vicious lies" that

Kucinich is not a major candidate, how many delegates has Dennis picked up?

How many delegates do you expect Dennis to pick up before the convention once you have defeated the true enemy and only Dennis' DLC allies stand in his way?

[DrFunkenstein]

59. Did Dean Ever Change That Anti-war Advertisement?

Personally, I'd be surprised that committed progressives would put much effort behind a centrist that supported Biden-Lugar. Especially one that repeatedly marginalized the other anti-war candidates.

My advise to DK people: Go to the progressive Public Citizen website and go back through the years and see how Kerry's record holds up to their standards. (Note: his one blemish is Fast Track, but the Kerry Amendment clears that up).

http://action.citizen.org/pc/officials/congress/?lvl=C&only_votes=1&azip=02101

According to a Jan. 31 Washington Post story, presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry is beholden to the very special interests he says he will dismiss from the White House if elected. The Post based its erroneous conclusion on an analysis of the money Kerry has raised from lobbyists while he was a senator.

But the Post paints an inaccurate picture using an arbitrary statistic.

Not only has Kerry historically refused to take PAC money, but his record shows that he been a leader for more than a decade in full reform of campaign financing, advocating for clean public money not only for presidential but also congressional campaigns.

Kerry was the lead sponsor with the late Sen. Paul Wellstone on a measure that would have authorized clean money in all federal congressional elections and was a leader in pressing for congressional public financing in the 1992 and 1993 campaign finance reform bills. Although those bills passed, they were not enacted.

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1639

[genius]

60. These have to be fakes sent by Dean people, Bewarr tricks from the Dean

campaign. This sort of tactic is sort of thing the Kucinich people keep seeing from the Dean camp.

[blondeatlast]

62. This Kucitizen wouldn't; Dean is about as Left as my right piggy-toe.

[HFishbine]

92. Kucinich Supporters: Dean or Edwards as your second choice?

I'm not trying to convince Kucinich supporters to switch to Dean. This post is for those Kucinich supporters who are trying to decide between Dean and Edwards as a second choice.

1) On Capital Punishment

In an interview with Tim Russert on MTP, Dean explained that, while he used to be against the death penalty under any circumstances, the murder of Polly Klaus and a similar case in Vermont had him reconsider. (1)

He now believes "the death penalty should be available for extreme and heinous crimes, such as terrorism or the killing of police officers or young children. But it must be carried out with scrupulous fairness." (2) (See footnote for further action Dean would take regarding capital punishment.)

This is certainly a little closer to Kucinich's position than Edwards who voted to pass a law that would allow children as young as 14 to face the death penalty (3)

2) On Labor

Edwards twice voted against raising the minimum wage by a mere $1 over three years.(4) He voted to nearly double the number of H-1B visas to allow more foreign workers to enter the country. (5) He also voted to change bankruptcy laws to make it easier for creditors to force debtors into a payment plan. (6)

Dean, on the other hand, supports a myriad of pro-labor positions too numerous to list here. They include card check off for union membership (ask a union person how important that is), signed a bill in Vermont to prohibit permanent replacement of striking workers and would do the same for federal employees, and signed the most sweeping family leave law in the country while governor. (7)

3) On the War

Dean frequently misspoke about being the only candidate to have opposed the war. It was something that made this supporter cringe. However, he was also the only candidate to ever give Kucinich props for his vote against the war on national TV -- on several occasions.

Dean said, time and time again, that he didn't think the evidence at hand supported attacking Iraq. Like Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun, he was among those who never voted for the war.

Edwards voted for the war and is unapologetic. To this day he insists that it was the right thing to do.

4) Withdrawing Troops from Iraq

Kucinich and Sharpton are the only candidates who support an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq (within 90 days). None of the candidates however are suggesting we leave a power vacuum. Denise, just like Dean, thinks that the way to get our troops out is to get multi-national forces in and Dean has a very clear and reasonable plan for doing so. (8)

5) Health Care

Only Sharpton and Kucinich favor single-payer health care. The differences between Dean and Edwards are significant. Edwards' proposal would expand health care by mandating that families insure their under-21 children. Those who can afford to purchase coverage through an insurance company will receive tax credits worth roughly $300. Poorer families will be required to pay to enroll their children in CHIPS (a government sponsored child insurance plan). The poorest children, as they are today, will be covered for free. Edwards plan incentivises the purchase of private insurance for children. He offers no solutions for un-insured adults.(9)

Dean's proposal would also expand CHIPS, but to cover people up to age 25 for middle and low income families. Adults who make up to 185% of the poverty level, would also be able to buy into CHIPS. To provide assistance to those who make more than 185% of the poverty level, Dean would create a health system similar to the one offered to federal employees and he'll offer tax breaks to make it more affordable. (10)

It is Dean's plan that offers the broadest coverage. Edwards' plan is more narrow, offers no solution for uninsured adults and his plan would funnel money (by mandate) to insurance companies.

6) Military Spending

Edwards voted to approve Bush's military budget every year he's been in office. (11) Edwards also voted to approve the National Missile Defense System (12) but voted against a bill that would require sanctions against China if they were found to be selling WMD.

Howard Dean pledges to keep our fighting force the most effective in the world, but he is clearly against the development of "battlefield" "bunker busting" or "low yield" nuclear weapons (13)(Edwards? Since he voted for Bush't miliatry bugets, he must favor them).

Dean also would actively seek to make the use of military force obsolete by asserting America's role in the world as a peaceful nation. He would seek to strengthen international alliances and repair damaged relations. He rejects the notion of pre-emptive war (which Edwards embraces to this day) as anything but a last resort and only when absolutely necessary to secure our country. (14)

We haven't even touched on the issues of civil liberties and GLBT rights, on which there are also marked differences between Dean and Edwards, but any honest look at the facts will clearly show that on principles and policies, Dean is far closer to Kucinich than Edwards.




1) http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~gabriel/dean2004blog/Dean_MTP_June_22_2003.htm

2) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_capitalpunishment

3) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2264&can_id=CNC68243

4) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2644&can_id=CNC68243

5) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2915&can_id=CNC68243

6) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2658&can_id=CNC68243

7) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_labor

8) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_7pointplan

9) http://www.johnedwards2004.com/healthcare-children.asp

10) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_health

11) http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=CNC68243

12) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2187&can_id=CNC68243

13) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_policy_foreign_issue_nuclearweapons

14) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_foreign

[iowapeacechief]

94. Why not Kerry?

None of the others is Dennis or even comes close, but, if you're a Kucinich supporter who needs a second choice, why not John Kerry?