My problem with Kerry (maybe it is personal)

[dsc]

When I was in high school, I had a friend named Greg. He was on the football team and I helped him with his work to keep him eligible. When he was around just me he was a great person. He treated me with kindness and respect. I know he also was the reason that most jocks went from beating the crap out of me to just calling me the occasional name. But he never publicly stood up for me. He never told the name callers that they were wrong and that I was a good person.

In college I had a friend named Mark. He grew up with somewhat intolerant parents. Shortly after I told him I was gay I went with him to his parent's house. His parents were discussing something to do with AIDS. I can't remember exactly what they said but it wasn't nice. He floored me by calling his parents out and saying they should be ashamed of themselves.

The first friend reminds me a lot of John Kerry, the second Howard Dean. Kerry says the right things and has many correct votes. He also comes from a state that is very pro gay. He simply hasn't touted that record in less friendly places. He treats us with kindness and respect and good votes but when he gets around the cool kids in Iowa and NH he doesn't stick up for us. Dean also treats us with kindness and respect but he stood up for us to the name callers of his state and several others.

The fact is I like the person who demands the treatment Mark gave me much better than the person who accepted the treatment Greg gave me. I didn't have much pride then I do now. People like Mark played a roll in that.

I will vote for Kerry if I end up having to, but I won't feel the pride I would voting for Dean. Maybe that is my problem.

[displacedtexan]

1. Who are the cool kids in Iowa and NH?

?

[caledesi]

2. Wow dsc! That is a great analogy of the 2 candidates. I am

a Dean supporter, but at this point I am realistic and might have to vote for Kerry. He doesn't impress me that much, but ABB.

[Armstead]

3. Good analogy

"Maybe that is my problem." -- No, it's Kerry's problem.

It's not just his problem on the gay marriage issue. It's his problem on the war. It's his problem on healthcare. It's his problem on free trade.

He's a good guy, but he always wants it both ways. Put a nice face on bad things, and avoid the core problem.

[lancdem]

4. Hey, as long as you vote to send Bush packing in November

That's all I care about. There's no rule that says you have to like Kerry. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

[Hoosier Democrat]

5. Great Post!!!

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comparison and we can extend it to other issues.

One of my biggest issues in picking my candidate was the war. Dean took the principled but controversial stand of opposing this fiasco from the get-go (along with DK and Sharpton). Kerry caved in to "Peer Pressure" and voted for the IWR (as did Edwards and Gephardt).

I need a candidate who is willing to take a tough stand and say "This is what I believe because its RIGHT, not because its popular.

[cheezus]

6. that's the reason Kerry will win and Dean won't

and that sucks

[CWebster]

7. Wow

a heartfelt sentiment and I understood exactly what you were conveying through your own personal experience.

[ModerateMiddle]

8. I don't understand this

I am gay too, and I know for a fact that John Kerry has been standing up publicly for our rights since he became a senator.

"With a 100% rating from the Human Rights Campaign since 1995, John Kerry is a powerful voice in the ongoing fight for civil rights for gay and lesbian Americans." (from the Kerry website)

also:

"One of John Kerry’s first acts as a U.S. Senator, in 1985, was to introduce a bill prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. He supports passage of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and has adopted a nondiscrimination policy for his Congressional offices based on sexual orientation and gender identity."

(also from the JK website)

[CWebster]

9. But now that he has to pander to a wider audience

He is willing to sell you out for personal advantage rather than take a strong moral stand.

[ModerateMiddle]

14. a strong moral stand

like those of Kucinich? Do you see how much power that is giving to the gay community?

[CWebster]

17. Well, I am sure it does and would

if Dennis was taken seriously by our party. He is easy to marginalize. Dean is more difficult to dismiss; Kerry never takes a really significant risk, so he meets less resistance only because he offers less resistance to whatever accomodation he can make in the moment, i.e. Dean threatened to address the I\P conflict, Kerry represents the status quo.

[dsc]

10. Yes in Massachusetts

but I have listened to many of his stump speeches and he never mentions that record. He never mentions us. It is easy to compile that record in Massachusetts, which for much of his time in the Senate had 2 gay US House members, but it is much harder to defend and brag on that record in Iowa and New Hampshire. Dean has the record and the record of defending it. Kerry only has the record.

[ModerateMiddle]

12. I believe you're being blinded

Howard Dean was forced to sign that legislation supporting Civil Unions. No one forced Kerry to continually stand for the rights of gays. Remember one of the lines Kerry used in a forum, quoting a gay man:

"They gave me a medal for killing a man, and a dishonorable discharge for loving a man."

Kerry was also one of only 14 Senators who voted against the DOMA.

If we make this election about gay *Marriage*, we'll lose. If we make the issue about *equal rights*, we'll win the argument.

Politics is the art of compromise.

[dsc]

16. It is baldly false to say Dean was forced to sign that law

I have posted it over a dozen times and you well know it. I won't provide the link again but go to google and type in Vermont Constitution, go to the first link you get, and then to the article on amending the constitution. It is a lengthy but easy process. Three state courts have given substantialy similar opinions (Alaska, Hawaii and Vermont) but only Vermont has civil unions.

The forum at which Kerry quoted that man was the HRC forum, which feeds into my point.

[Eloriel]

28. Not only that, he signed it when his own approval ratings were

at about 35%, not all that long before the election (with a 3rd party candidate running against him!) -- and he went all around the state standing up for the bill, educating people about gay rights, etc., etc. HE DID WHAT WAS RIGHT WITHOUT REGARD OR CONSIDERATION FOR THE POTENTIAL POLITICAL COSTS. He even had to wear bullet-proof vests through this whole period.

Boy, that sentence I put in bold, you'd be hard pressed to apply it to John Forbes Kerry.

[blm]

15. Not true. I HEARD him stick up for gay rights in SC where few politicians

would speak openly about the discrimination against gays.

What has happened, dsc? You used to be so much fairer in your respect for Kerry's longtime efforts for gays.

Is supporting Dean more important than the truth and fairness in regard to Kerry's record?

[Eloriel]

35. is supporting kerry more important than truth and fairness

in politics? In representing others' words, actions, positions? In engaging in dirty politics and dirty tricks to take down the frontrunner -- steal his message, his words, then tell people he's not electable (which is itself a lie)?

It works both ways, blm, and ...

well, you know how I feel. I see more misrepresentations about Dean's record than I ever have about Kerry's. In fact, Kerry's actual record -- the truth about it, not distortions or fabrications -- is a disaster. It would help if he didn't always have to have it both ways and had a much clearer record of where he stood (aside from all Dean's ideas, of course).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

40. Are misleading questions the only hope for the Dean campaign?

lol :hi:

[blm]

45. Dean was a centrist who moved left in 2003. Kerry had 35 years on the left

Who had to coopt whose policies and positions to appeal to the left?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

77. ...and Kerry moved to the right in 2000.

I know which direction I want to go.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

18. BTW if I had voted on length of record

that prize goes to Lieberman, who sponser the bill you are so proud of Kerry sponsering in the late 1970's in the CT Senate.

[blm]

22. Well, dispute the FACTS of the post, please, dsc.

Subject: I STRONGLY DISAGREE. Kerry stood up for you LONG before anyone else did in the well of the Senate back in 85.

He did so again by advocating for gays to serve openly in the military.

He called DOMA "gay bashing in the Senate"...a very unpopular thing to say.

Dean was able to sign that civil unions bill in 2000 BECAUSE of the longtime efforts of those like Kerry who kept pushing for fairer treatment of gays when it was VERY UNPOPULAR to do so.

Gay rights did NOT start with the latecomer Howard Dean.

[dsc]

23. I believe I did

kerry didn't start gay rights either, as I pointed out Lieberman was there first. Kerry didn't get much done here, let's face it. Also Kerry is from a very gay friendly state. For all of Dean's life in politics, at least as a state wide office holder, he has been in our corner at least to the extent that Kerry was.

[blm]

24. Dean as gov. BACKED Kerry when he was advocating for gays in the military?

Governors and Dem activists usually do weigh in on causes they are concerned about. (Like when Dean offered support on pushing Yucca Mt)

So...does the Dean camp have a copy of Dean's letter of support on that?

How about a letter of support when Kerry and a few others stood against DOMA? Did Dean send a letter of support then? Governors who believe strongly about issues usually do.

So...does the Dean camp have a copy of Dean's letter of support on that?

[dsc]

26. when you produce the letter from Kerry backing civil unions

in 2000 then I will look for what Dean may have done. I know more than a few governors did due to national guards having to follow the national policy.

[blm]

30. Sorry, YOU are the one claiming Dean was for these issues along with Kerry

We already KNOW Kerry was in support of them as there is Senate testimony on gays in the military and Kerry's floor speech and vote against DOMA.

It is YOUR claim that is dubious and in question.

[dsc]

32. Kerry never, as in not even once,

mentioned civil unions at the time of DOMA. He rightly decried the idea of using the federal law to bash gays but even then said he was four square against marriage but felt the federal law as it existed was enough protection of marriage. That is not, in any way, shape, or form, an endorsment of civil unions.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. Your mischaracterization of Kerry's views is baffling to me.

Why attack someone who has so consistently stood up for GLBT rights?

[blm]

42. Did Dean bring up civil unions during DOMA?

Or are you being selectively outraged?

Did Dean publicly or privately support those Democrats who were advocating for gays in the military or who stood against DOMA?

These questions should have easy answers.

[Eloriel]

36. Yucca Mt was specifically about Vermont and its nuclear waste

not exactly a good comparison.

[mzmolly]

13. Wow, what a great analogy.

I agree with your assessment.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

19. Too bad you are so wrong about Dean and Kerry

Where did Dean stand on gay rights and civil unions BEFORE the court decision?:

Dean's No Opinion, No Answer is Wrong Answer
by Dean Corren

The interview with Howard Dean {OITM June, 1998} let him off too easily. Not having an opinion on whether lesbians and gays should have equal civil rights, marriage or otherwise, is an opinion - a very low one.

Using the courts as a dodge is unacceptable. The courts have their job to do, executive and legislative elected officials have theirs. Basic political responsibility should require a clear position. Actual leadership would require much, much more.

He puts a chummier face on it, but morally, Howard Dean's position (especially to the degree expressed by his Attorney General's brief which could only be described as homophobic) is no different from his opponents'. While their positions might be summed up as, "We're not sure we like you enough to afford you the same rights and responsibilities as everyone else in our civil society," the Governor's position is "I'm not sure you're worth the price to my re-election campaign."

In the interview the Governor stated, "Since nothing is going to happen on this issue in the legislature until the court speaks there's no particular reason for me to take a public position on it." His attempt to link whether he makes his positions public to the actions of other branches of government is illogical and insulting. Failing any sense of responsibility on his part, the insistence of OITM and its readers' voting power should give him the "particular reason" he needs to decide to make his position public. Would environmental groups accept a refusal to take a position on clearcutting, NARAL a demur from supporting or opposing abortion, or even Wall Street a "no opinion yet" on capital gains taxes?

Clearly, Dean is either still waiting for the polling data to tell him his position, or he's seen it, and knows you wouldn't like it. But on an issue of fundamental civil rights, shouldn't "no position" or "secret position" be just as bad as the wrong position? The Governor is either with the GLBT community or he's against it. So far, he sure isn't with it.

More: http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jul98/deanoped.htm

Where did Dean stand on gay marriage AFTER the court decision?:

“The Legislature will pass a domestic partnership bill and I’m comfortable with that,” Gov. Howard Dean said.

What was more interesting was what he was not comfortable with.

“It makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else,” Dean said of gay marriage. “The 4,000-year-old tradition of heterosexual marriage being an institution is something I think you have to respect. I think there are a lot of people in this state who are uncomfortable about the concept of gay marriage.”

There are thousands more who are not uncomfortable and at least some legislative leaders said they would be willing to consider enacting a marriage statute.

More: http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jan2000/news_scyes.htm

[dsc]

20. blatent distortion

First you didn't label the first piece as what it was, an opinion piece. I think there is a rule about that but I don't know for sure. But, I know, as opposed to opine, that gay groups asked the governors to stay out of those court cases. Which is what Dean did. The AG is a seperate, elected office, in Vermont. Thus the brief was not his but the AG's.

Second, that same press converence Dean came out strongly for civil unions. Your computer must have editted that.

Finally, your candidate never mentions his gay rights record in literature or appearence that have a straight audience, Dean always mentions his which is my point.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. "OiTM" is printing distortions against Dean? that anti-gay rag! lol

Out in the Mountains is so notorious for gay-bashing, it's shocking that the mods allow me to quote it here. :eyes:

Dean's phony posturing on this issue may have fooled a lot of folks, but when Kerry becomes President, his actions will win those folks over.

[dsc]

31. It was an opinon piece

and for all I know from a political opponent of Dean's, remember there is a leftist opposition in Vermont. That is the rule I think you violated, not labeling opinon.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. The FACTS are that Dean's support of civil unions was reluctant and forced

by the court, and the idea of gay marriage makes him 'uncomfortable'. And no unbiased person could read those OiTM articles and come to any other conclusion, IMHO.

[Duncan Grant]

38. In Dean's first appearances on C-SPAN...

he always discussed this issue (courageously, I might add). Mind you, this was in 2002 in Iowa and New Hampshire. This was very, very early in the campaign - no one, but no one, knew who this guy was.

That's how he got my attention. He's not ducked this issue and speaks openly about his process as Governor - both personally and as a steward of government.

Anyone who considers Dean lukewarm on this issue is incorrect.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. You are talking about 2002. I am talking about 2000 and 1998

Yes, after Dean's hand was forced by the court, he took a position. If you want to consider that courageous, that is your judgement to make.

[Duncan Grant]

41. That he spoke so openly about his personal 'evolution'...

when he began this process, as an unknown candidate, for the presidency speaks volumes. No other candidate took political hits for this position in the earliest stages of the campaign.

Dean got out ahead of this 'story' while other's played the 'wait and see' game. He made the single most significant argument about why g/l/b/t people are Americans, too - deserving of every right and privilege offered in the good ole' U.S. of A.

He took the lead on this when his campaign was just finding its legs. It was a risky political move which could have sunk his early campaign. That risk showed integrity and courage in my book. I understand not everyone sees it that way.

edit: I need a punctuation check more than a spell check! :silly:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. That was after he followed the court, and the legislature.

As I've shown in post 19, Dean was not a leader when first confronted with the issue, he was a follower. Once Dean was placed in a position of either having to sign the bill or come out publicly against gay rights, he chose the right thing. And he deserves credit for not running from that decision.

[dsc]

49. flat out false

I have posted not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, not five times, not six times, not seven times, not eight times, not nine times, not ten times, not eleven times, but at least twelve times that on the day of the decision, four months before the legislature did a god damn thing. I also posted it yesterday in direct response to you.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. Here it is, again:

“The Legislature will pass a domestic partnership bill and I’m comfortable with that,” Gov. Howard Dean said.

What was more interesting was what he was not comfortable with.

“It makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else,” Dean said of gay marriage. “The 4,000-year-old tradition of heterosexual marriage being an institution is something I think you have to respect. I think there are a lot of people in this state who are uncomfortable about the concept of gay marriage.”

There are thousands more who are not uncomfortable and at least some legislative leaders said they would be willing to consider enacting a marriage statute.

More: http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jan2000/news_scyes.htm

That's what Dean said. That he was comfortable following the Legislature's lead on a domestic partnership bill and uncomfortable with gay marriage. If that is your idea of leadership, Dean's the one!

[dsc]

56. note the tense of the verb

You keep claiming that the legislature passed the law and then he advocated it is clear, from your own link, that the opposite is true.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. What is clear is that Dean did not say he supported civil unions.

He said the Legislature would pass the law and he was comfortable with it. That isn't leadership.

[dsc]

59. and of course he had nothing to do with them doing so

despite both of his oppoents in 2000 saying exactly that.

[incapsulated]

21. Is this standing up for you with the "cool kids"?

In the interview the Governor stated, "Since nothing is going to happen on this issue in the legislature until the court speaks there's no particular reason for me to take a public position on it."

C'mon now. He "stood up" when he actually needed the gay vote, not before.

I have a lot of problems with this Kerry coronation, but this dissing of his liberal creds is reaching heights of absurdity.

Kerry was painted as an unelectable super-liberal for as long as I have been paying attention to politics, and that's over twenty years now. There is a reason for that, and it has nothing to do with this years election spin. If anything, the reason he is not touting his liberal record is because it has been used against him for so long.

[D G]

25. I do not expect to be validated on a personal level by any president.

Or any politician for that matter. I am not saying that your feelings don't matter or aren't valid; just pointing out the difference in our perspectives and expectations. You've given me something to think about.

[dsc]

37. It isn't just personal validation

but a matter of priorities. I admit that I sure don't see federal civil unions legislation coming out of this Congress. But, I do see, with the leadership of a person who really cared, things like ENDA and hate crimes laws happening. That is why this matters to me. If he won't bring these issues up now, why should I think he will bring them up upon winning? I think that is a valid question.

[Duncan Grant]

44. That's a good question, dsc.

My guess is that Kerry will be hammered on this by the GOP as many times as it suits their purposes. I hope the eventual nominee can formulate a clear and precise affirmative argument that dignifies all Americans.

The current position of some of the nominees (or rather candidates) is more of an equivocation -- and that isn't true leadership.

edit: not nominees - rather, candidates

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. I think our reasons we view the world as we do are usually personal

I don't agree with your analogy given that Kerry's votes have had national rather than regional repercussions but it's how you feel.

My analogy and Kerry has spoken to several GLBT groups about this without using my analogy is this:

IF you are going to share salami with a lunchmate...will you feed them a bite at a time or slam the whole log down their throat?

What Kerry DOES bring to the national conversation right now is to attempt to quell the anger by not speaking with angry rhetorical devices (not that I am accusing Dean of doing so). If we can get people to back off the anger and polarization...maybe we can get back to REASONABLE conversation.

[DrFunkenstein]

43. One Of 14 To Vote Against Defense of Marriage?

Not only vote against, but to speak out passionately as well.

He cosponsored and voted for the Employment Non-Discrimination Act of 1996, which would have prohibited job discrimination based on sexual orientation by federal employers, and was narrowly defeated in the U.S. Senate.

Kerry also voted for Senator Barbara Boxer's unsuccessful 1993 amendment to modify President Clinton's Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, which would have striked out language in Don't Ask, Don't Tell that currently permits the dishonorable discharge of gay and lesbian soldiers due solely to sexual orientation.

The Boxer Amendment would have stipulated for the president, as Commander-in-Chief, to be given ultimate decision-making authority when individual cases of misconduct occurred, so that soldiers are judged on behavior and performance, rather than on sexual orientation per se.

The amendment also would have ended "witch hunt" military investigations based on unconfirmed rumors (of homosexuality), investigations which Don't Ask, Don't Tell, despite its title, still allows for.

http://www.votewithavengeance.com/kerry.html

[David Zephyr]

46. Kerry Opposing DOMA Was Bold. Dean Advocating Civil Unions Was Historic.

Thank you, DSC, for honest commentary. I understand where you are coming from. You are one of the most candid posters at the DU and I admire you greatly for it.

If I can chime in here, I'd like to sort of let you know how I feel about some of this:

John Kerry's opposition to and vote against DOMA deserves nothing less than praise from the gay and lesbian community. DOMA was dreamed up by America's Czar of Homophobia, Bill Bennett, just in time for the 1996 election. And none other than politician and President Bill Clinton made it the Law of the Land by signing the Bill...in the middle of the night at the very time he was defending his own heterosexual marriage by having an affair with a White House intern named Monica Lewinsky.

Governor Howard Dean's groundbreaking advocacy for creating the same equal status legal protections for homosexual as for heterosexual couples in Vermont was a milestone that will forever be noted in the struggles for equality for gays and lesbians in the United States. Anyone attempting to diminish his actions or temper the courage behind them reveal more about themselves then they could ever do about the Governor.

Governor Jerry Brown, in one of his very first acts after becoming Governor of California in the 1970's decriminalized homosexuality, also a historic milestone.

Of course, none of this 'political action' would have never happened without the 'direct action' of millions of homosexuals over a very long period of time who sacrificed their careers, livelihood, family relations...and even their very lives. Still, there are few, if any single acts by any American political leaders that stand as nobly as those of Governor Brown and Governor Dean. History will look kindly on these two souls.

Howard Dean's candidacy for the Presidency was fueled with millions and millions of dollars from grateful gays and lesbians who honored a man who honored had us. There is nothing that any politician or supporter of any politician can ever do to change that appreciation. It's real...and it will last.

Dean's advocacy of Civil Unions was sweet and sour to the Governor's candidacy for the President of the United States. It won him loyal supporters and money, but it also made a great many of the Democratic Party Establishment extremely uncomfortable having a potential titular head of the Party so closely associated with the Civil Union / Gay Marriage issue.

And now, Senator Kerry, has suddenly become heir of the "gay marriage" controversy that Governor Dean had to contend with since he has become the front runner, as Dean once was, and since the Supreme Court in his home state of Massachusetts has put the issue front and center of a growing national debate.

None of us knows how this will affect his candidacy and/or how he will respond to it. I have enjoyed the backhanded compliment that many Kerry supporters have paid, perhaps unknowingly to Dean, when they say that Kerry's position on legal status for gay couples is the "same as Dean's" or "as good as Dean's". In other words, they are saying that Kerry has endorsed Dean's bold stand back in Vermont. Good for them for saying so.

Good as Dean's. Not as groundbreaking and courageous, perhaps, but still, I'd agree...good as Dean's.

[blm]

47. Some difference. Kerry ADVOCATED for gays in several areas.

With the antidiscrimnation bill in 85. By pushing for gays to be allowed to serve openly in the military in 93. By calling DOMA "gay bashing in the Senate" in 96.

Dean did not actively ADVOCATE for civil unions. The legislature and Vermont Supreme Court put them forth.

Dean was ABLE to sign a civil unions bill in 2000 because of those brave legislators like Kerry who advocated for gay issues for those 15 years before, moving the issues for gays ever forward when possible.

Civil unions in 2000 did NOT happen in some vacuum.

[David Zephyr]

51. BLM: Gays Owe It All to John Kerry.

In your hero worship, you are insulting gay people like myself with this nonsense.

My post was respectful to your candidate. It also clearly points out that my rights as a homosexual, something you seem to have become an expert about recently, did "not happen in some vacuum", but happened more because of "direct action" rather than "political action".

You are doing John Kerry a tremendous disservice with your postings by attributing to him a larger role than he is meritous of taking. In fact, I think that he would be embarrassed by what you are posting.

Since you are not homosexual and since you have not walked in my shoes, you might take a deep breath before you post such insulting assertations that the Civl Unions Bill in Vermont was a direct outgrowth of John Kerry's political career.

[blm]

53. No. I didn't say that. But why pretend he didn't move the ball forward?

Every time a public and political figure stepped forward and advocated for gay issues it was one step closer to civil unions. I said "brave legislators like Kerry..."

Why would you find that insulting? And why attack me personally for that view?

[David Zephyr]

61. "Move the Ball Forward"

"Move the Ball Forward: A History of the Struggles of Homosexuals in America" by BLM.

[blm]

78. Why are you misrepresenting my words

and twisting them beyond recognition? If there is something false in what I wrote, then correct me, but if there is not, then it is wrong to pretend there is.

[D G]

54. blm said no such thing

And if only gays and lesbians are qualified to post facts and opinions about the candidates' positions regarding gay marriage, civil unions, etc. - well, someone needs to show me that memo.

[DrFunkenstein]

50. Serious Question: Did Dean Advocate Civil Unions?

The impression I got was that it was put on his lap and he signed it with the doors literally closed to the media. I am not knocking the courage it took to sign it - it certainly cost him votes at election time in Vermont - but I don't recall him actually advocating civil unions. I am being totally upfront that I don't know this for a fact, and I'd love a link that refutes it.

[dsc]

55. The link has been posted many times before

In an interview with Out in the Mountains, the questioner not Howard Dean, makes clear that Dean came out in favor of civil unions, the usual definition of advocacy, on the very day the decision was handed down. That would be not one, not two, not three, but four months before the legislature acted.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. Well then could you please repost it? So we could all read it?

[dsc]

64. Here it is

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=278240&mesg_id=279218

[Feanorcurufinwe]

65. That's from after he signed the bill, following the court and legislature

Here is the actual underlying source link for the threads you link to:

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jun2000/news06_dean%20.htm

Three weeks after signing landmark legislation making Vermont the only state to provide marriage-related benefits to gay and lesbian couples, Gov. Howard Dean was interviewed by Out in the Mountains.
http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jun2000/news06_dean%20.htm

As I've said, when forced into the choice of either signing the bill or actively opposing gay rights, and he deserves credit for that, and for not trying to hide it.

But rather than post an interviewer's characterization of what Dean said immediately after the decision, I've posted what Dean said immediately after the decision:

Elected leaders are trying to figure out their options and all of them, from the governor down, seem to have latched on to the court’s suggestion that domestic partnership might be legal.

“The Legislature will pass a domestic partnership bill and I’m comfortable with that,” Gov. Howard Dean said.

What was more interesting was what he was not comfortable with.

“It makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else,” Dean said of gay marriage. “The 4,000-year-old tradition of heterosexual marriage being an institution is something I think you have to respect. I think there are a lot of people in this state who are uncomfortable about the concept of gay marriage.”
http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jan2000/news_scyes.htm

You are welcome to characterize that as leadership or advocacy if you wish. I would describe it as accepting the inevitable.

[dsc]

67. If you weren't going to bother to read them

then why did you ask for them?

In the very first question of the interview I quoted they wrote you IMMEDIDATELY after the BAKER DECISION supported civil unions. IMMEDIATELY AFTER DOESN'T MEAN FOUR MONTHS WHICH IS WHEN THE LEGISLATURE ACTED. IT TOOK ME 5 MINUTES TO GET THAT LINK YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN THE 15 SECONDS TO READ IT.

Here is that oh so confusing quote that you evidently found impossible to understand.

OITM: Immediately after the Supreme Court’s Baker ruling, you sided with domestic partnership legislation. How did you come to make this decision and what role do you think your position played in the ultimate outcome of the debate?

Now there is no way that you could have honestly read that quote and wrote what you did. Please do not ask for links unless you intend to to read them. I have provided this link upteen times and due to your requests went and searched yet again for it. In return you didn't even read it. That is profoundly disrepectful plain and simple.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

72. I did read it. I don't care what that reporter thought, we have Dean's own

words. We don't need to rely on someone's second hand interpretation:

Elected leaders are trying to figure out their options and all of them, from the governor down, seem to have latched on to the court’s suggestion that domestic partnership might be legal.

“The Legislature will pass a domestic partnership bill and I’m comfortable with that,” Gov. Howard Dean said.

What was more interesting was what he was not comfortable with.

“It makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else,” Dean said of gay marriage. “The 4,000-year-old tradition of heterosexual marriage being an institution is something I think you have to respect. I think there are a lot of people in this state who are uncomfortable about the concept of gay marriage.”
http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jan2000/news_scyes.htm

That's what Dean himself said. It's not what someone else said he meant.

[kerryistheanswer]

60. The problem with your analogy

I don't think Kerry was ever part of the cool kids clique. He was constantly teased as a child for being overly ambitious and serious. If you draw parallels between a football team and senate, i think it's a bit far-fetched.

You seem to forget that Kerry stood up against Nixon when it counted and led the anti-war Veterans march. He didn't have to do it. He didn't have to become a target of so many gung ho patriots.

How about in 1996 - the opposition against the Defense of Marrriage act was quite bold, don' you think so? He was one of 14 senators to oppose it and the only senator who was up for reelection.

Another example of Kerry's ability to tolerate and encourage all to come together - at a speech in New Hampshire, a La Rouche supporter started screaming out. Rather than ignore him, Kerry encouraged the man to speak his mind and told the rest of the crowd to silence their jeers. That is far different than singing the pledge of allegiance and telling your guards to get the guy out of the room.

Kerry will stand with you and all of us.

[dsc]

62. I think you took my analogy a bit too literally

I am not saying Kerry was a cool kid in high school.

But I am saying that I while Kerry has shown courage on issues but I don't think gay rights is one. Yes, his DOMA vote took some guts but he was running against the most pro gay Republican on planet earth. Massachusetts is a very pro gay state and it is hard to see how much that vote really hurt him.

Finally in the case of Dean and the LaRouchies it wasn't one it was a bunch of them and he had no real choice but to have them drowned out. Had it been one, he would have done what Kerry did.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. So, where is the link that you said shows Dean advocating civil unions?

Prior to the court decision? You said it has been posted over and over and over, so it should be easy for you to find. Could you repost it please? Thank you.

[dsc]

68. that is not what you asked for

You asked for proof he advocated for civil unions before it was passed. I provided that above. Here is the text again. You can look above for the link.

OITM: Immediately after the Supreme Court’s Baker ruling, you sided with domestic partnership legislation. How did you come to make this decision and what role do you think your position played in the ultimate outcome of the debate?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. You provided a characterization of a quote. I provided the actual quote.

[dsc]

70. No you didn't

You provided a quote from the press conference not the whole thing. And I provided a neutral characterization. It wasn't Dean's. I trust them to have charcterized that whole press conference accurately. And that press conference was not three weeks later.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

71. Here it is again:

Elected leaders are trying to figure out their options and all of them, from the governor down, seem to have latched on to the court’s suggestion that domestic partnership might be legal.

“The Legislature will pass a domestic partnership bill and I’m comfortable with that,” Gov. Howard Dean said.

What was more interesting was what he was not comfortable with.

“It makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else,” Dean said of gay marriage. “The 4,000-year-old tradition of heterosexual marriage being an institution is something I think you have to respect. I think there are a lot of people in this state who are uncomfortable about the concept of gay marriage.”
http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/jan2000/news_scyes.htm

That is what Dean said. It is not someone's description, months later, of what he said.

[dsc]

74. Do you honestly beleive that presss conference

consisted of two answers by Dean and no questions? I don't. This is not an original source and it only prints five lines of the press conference. Show me an orignal source then I'll agree.

[TheDonkey]

66. so that's why JK went against the Dems to vote against DOMA.

He was trying to fit in w/ the other 2 out of 100.

[dsc]

75. It was 11 not 2

and he was running against one of the very few pro gay Republicans in a state with two gay US Congressmen. Yes, it took some courage but not a ton.

[HazMat]

73. My analogy

Dean's the kid who makes a scene and gets himself expelled, while the offenders go on doing what they've always done.

Kerry's the kid who plans and works methodically to get the offenders expelled.

[DebJ]

76. No. Its not personal, it is about personal courage and need to be right

instead of the need to be popular.

In other words, being the best you can be as a human, and a true leader, not a follow the wave and be popular thing, which disgusts me.

I watched the debates from the beginning. Kerry, if he believes the things he is saying now, lacked the b#lls to say them in the beginning of the debates. Once Dean supporters gave their voice to things, THEN suddenly he pirates the message. So I don't believe anything he says. He says what he thinks will get him elected. Will he DO anything about it, or simply continue to excuse his behaviors as 'trusting someone else and they misled me' boo hoo. No one in politics trusts anyone what a bunch of crap.

[blm]

79. Gay activists know that Kerry stood for them LONG before Dean did.

In fact, Dean never advocated for gays on his own ever. Kerry did and has done so since 1985.

To claim that he is following Dean is just absurd.

[dsc]

80. that is flat out false

Dean helped pass and then helped sign a gay civil rights bill in Vermont, He was chair of the Senate when it passed the Senate and gov when it passed the House. He also lobbied for and signed a hate crimes law.

[dsc]

81. kick

facts are stubborn things

[blm]

82. You want to claim Kerry followed Dean?

Show us the letter of support from Dean, then. he sent letters of support on other issues before Congress. Where are his letters of support on gay issues?

Present them. Then I'll believe that Dean was advocating for gays as long as Kerry.

btw...you KNOW Kerry didn't follow Dean's lead on gay issues. Why don't YOU correct posters who spread that misperception?

[dsc]

83. No but you claimed that Dean didn't do anything on his own

that is just plain utterly totally and completely false. BTW I don't think Kerry had one god damned thing to do with Vermont passing those bills.