Why Kucinich supporters would never support Dean in a primary.

[genius]

This is why the Kucinich supporters will not support Dean in any of the states.

1.Kucinich supporters are very loyal to Kucinich.

2.Dean is the furthest from Kucinich on most issues. Dennis opposes the Death Penalty. On MTP, Dean indicated he supports it because he was sorry a man, whose conviction was overturned and who was never re-tried, was not executed. All the other candidates are closer to Dennis on the death penalty though no one else is calling for an abolition.

3.Dennis wants to cancel NAFTA. Dean said he would keep NAFTA. Edwards campaigned against NAFTA, making him the closest to Dennis on this issue. While Dennis has the highest labor rating (98%), Edwards has the second highest rating. Kerry has the third highest.

4. Dennis led the opposition to the war. Dean LIED and said he was the only candidate against the war. In fact, Dean was the most pro-war of all the candidates, supporting Biden-Lugar, a much more radical resolution than the one passed. Clark and Sharpton were the only ones, outside of Dennis, who did not support some kind of war resolution.

5. Dennis led the opposition to the occupation, which is killing soldiers on a daily basis. He helped convince Kerry and Edwards to vote against the $87 billion for the occupation. Dean said he would give the $87 billion to Bush in the CNN debate. Dean is talking about staying in Iraq for years. Imagine all the lost health care funds and education funds to pay for Dean's long Iraq occupation.

6. Kucinich's health care plan will fund health care. Dean's health care plan will fund the insurance companies. Edwards has a history of fighting insurance companies.

7. Kucinich wants to cut weapons programs that don't work and cut duplication (as where the military misplaces a fleet of helicopters and buys a new one) and Dean opposes these cuts. These cuts would fund health care and college for everyone in America. Dean's priorities would support this waste.

8. Kucinich is a strong supporter of the right to a fair trial. Edwards agrees with Dennis on this issue. Dean cut public defender funds, including funds to the disabled, in Vermont and spoke about the need to get rid of technicalities that get in the way of convictions.

8. The news media has tried to keep Dennis down and Dean has been playing into this by trying to pretend Dennis doesn't exist. Other candidates, such as Edwards, have been much more supportive of Kucinich and his supporters. Many Kucinich supporters have been badly treated by the Dean supporters. One of the kids who is working on the Kucinich campaign was roughed up by a Dean supporter. Her family and the people who witnessed it are not about to support Dean.

9. Kucinich's supporters are working as hard as possible to get him as many delegates as possible in the convention so that he can win on the second, third or fourth ballot. The supporters of other candidates seem more interested in the general election outcome rather than in pushing one person.

[EXE619K]

1. Did you conduct a poll recently for each states?

Do you know something that most of us...do not?

Maybe, your speculation should start out by saying "Perhaps...."

genius?

[tinanator]

8. those are just the facts not opinion

maybe not always apparent once you make a choice, but the health care beneficiaries of single payer plans are not the people but the insurance company that administers them.

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. yeah whatever...

we need Dean supporters supporting Howard Dean.

sounds pretty dumb right,

i have heard a million times
Dean supporters supporting Kerry b/c they think that _other_ people think he's more likely to win against bush.



go with your gut, go with the passion, go with Dean!

[Larkspur]

3. The ones I met in Worcester, MA are supporting Dean

and were pissed at DK for asking his Iowa people to support Edwards.

I've never been a DK fan. His oppositon to women's right to choose was too long for me to believe his sudden change of heart. He also strikes me as a leftwing ideoluge. I preferred Paul Wellstone, who was an idealist but was a reasonable person. It was Wellstone who said that progressives have done a terrible job of developing strategy to gain power to implement their agenda. Kucinich reminds me of that kind of progressive Wellstone was talking about. Kucinich strikes me as a whiner but doesn't have the ability to develop strategy to help get other progressives in power.

[iowapeacechief]

6. Then the ones you met in Worcester didn't understand...

...what was happening in Iowa! Or you don't.

[Larkspur]

11. When 2004 is done, Kucinich will not be remembered for much

Dean at least shook up the political world and the Democratic Party with our fundraising prowess, a power that still exists and a power that forced pro-IWR Kerry to co-opt Dean's, not Kucinich's, language.

Kucinich will eventually fade into obscurity.

[iowapeacechief]

16. Which Dean language is that?

I guess I missed it.

Dennis is the one getting co-opted, which is just fine.

[tinanator]

72. money money money money

bow before the Lord God of power politics.

[youngred]

42. Fade to obscurity?

I'll see Dennis Kucinich in the WH before I'll see Howard Dean there.

Bank on it

[Cheesehead]

63. Kucinich will still be in the House

Dean will be back in practice in Vermont.

[Kanary]

4. Your second #8 for me, about the supporters.

That did it for me months ago.

No need to flame, Dean supporters. It will only support that contention.

Kanary

[Trajan]

5. Not a very inclusive policy ...

Do "Kucinich supporters" wish to have their OWN party ?? ..

Nevermind: .. dont answer that: .. I tend to disbelieve such broad representations ...

[genius]

7. Kucinich supporters will support the nominee in the GE. We're voting for

Kucinich in the primary and no phoney emails from the Dean campaign can change that fact.

[twilight]

13. no emails from anyone will change that ...

Yep, we ARE a devout crew aren't we? That is because ...

Because we did not authorize the invasion of Iraq.
We did not authorize the invasion of Iran.
We did not authorize the invasion of North Korea.
We did not authorize the bombing of civilians in Afghanistan.
We did not authorize permanent detainees in Guantanamo Bay.
We did not authorize the withdrawal from the Geneva Convention.
We did not authorize military tribunals suspending due process and habeas corpus.
We did not authorize assassination squads.
We did not authorize the resurrection of COINTELPRO.
We did not authorize the repeal of the Bill of Rights.
We did not authorize the revocation of the Constitution.
We did not authorize national identity cards.
We did not authorize the eye of Big Brother to peer from cameras throughout our cities.
We did not authorize an eye for an eye.
Nor did we ask that the blood of innocent people, who perished on September 11, be avenged with the blood of innocent villagers in Afghanistan.
We did not authorize the administration to wage war anytime, anywhere, anyhow it pleases.
We did not authorize war without end.
We did not authorize a permanent war economy.





:dem: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Raya]

70. What about emails from the Edwards camp

[Terwilliger]

9. forget about it

8. The news media has tried to keep Dennis down and Dean has been playing into this by trying to pretend Dennis doesn't exist.Other candidates, such as Edwards, have been much more supportive of Kucinich and his supporters. Many Kucinich supporters have been badly treated by the Dean supporters. One of the kids who is working on the Kucinich campaign was roughed up by a Dean supporter. Her family and the people who witnessed it are not about to support Dean.

Just remember...Dennis and his supporters are cuddly...Dean, he or his supporters right or wrong, had to be put down. Dennis was never a factor.

The rest of this...I just don't know. Frankly, there is no one like Dennis in the race other than Dennis. Dean may not be someone to root for, but neither are Kerry, Edwards, or Clark.

[genius]

12. DEan was on four magazine covers. The media's his best friend

THis could be because in the 2/2/03 edition of of the Washington Post Karl Rove expressed support for Dean.

[Terwilliger]

18. Yes, and they like Nader too

I don't give Repukes the satisfaction of believing that I think in those kinds of sophomoric terms.

The media harps on whatever's popular, which (like it or not) Dean was much more popular than Dennis.

Dean has not been a media darling. And, as you might have been able to tell...all that media didn't do him any good. I don't think he'll win Wisconsin either.

[JNelson6563]

10. Immaculate? haha I don't think so.

I've never seen supporters of another candidate so quickly align themselves with other campaigns as I have with Kucinich supporters.

I got the biggest kick out of when they joined forces here with the Clark people. The Clark supporter told me they were doing a forum together becasue they had so much in common. This was especially laughable back when it happened because the only firm common ground there was was that Dean was beating them both.

I do not share your view of the highly prinicipled Kucinich supporter that you do due to experience. They seem to come more cheaply every day, truth be known.

Julie

[tinanator]

15. oh wow

those are some nicely placed comments.

[Desertrose]

25. don't know who you are talking about

I don't know too many Kucinich supporters who have aligned themselves with other candidates here on this board...easy to say...where's your list??

A Clark supporter told you what?

puhleese
:eyes:

peace
DR

[JNelson6563]

30. A Clark supporter justified a forum with Kucinich

supporters by telling me that it seemed natural to her becasue the two candidates "have so much in common". This was before any primary or caucus had taken place. I did laugh out loud at that one and noted the only similarity between the men was that they were both behind Dean.

The reality of the situation was it was a Stop Dean effort. It failed on a local level though. Clark still can't get a meet-up to draw more than 6 and Kucinich has none here. I hear the local news interviewed average caucus goers here today about tomorrow's caucus. I heard every person they reached was a Dean supporter.

Since I'll be at the local caucus site tomorrow I guess I'll see first hand who sells out and who doesn't, won't I? Glad you think the "similarity" comment was as absurd as I thought it was. I found it insulting she'd offer it to me as anything remotely resembling "reason".

As for "lists", um, some of us live in the real world and don't keep lists of who supports who in the insignificant world of DU. I've noticed a few avatar changes of late that are damn sad but I know the rules and we don't name names here. I'm hoping you were unaware and didn't realize fulfilling your request would've got my post deleted and a Mod warning in my inbox.

Julie

[Desertrose]

38. oops...pardon me I was out in the *real world* and didn't

even think about my request causing you a warning...nor have I been paying attention to avatar changes either....figured it would have been a damn short list anyhow- either way- no big deal really.

Don't know where you are that your meetups draw no DK suporters. Its hard to get people to come when your candidate gets rather *under reported* LOL

...but there are plenty in my area.....

:shrug:

well time will tell about everything & everyone I guess

Peace
DR

[youngred]

43. so because of what a Clark supporter told you you don't like Kucinch

:eyes:

I guess because some Dean supporters have told me he's the second coming of Jesus he must be!

[Tinoire]

29. You can't possibly believe that? I know very few DK supporters

who would even consider Clark unless they felt they had absolutely no choice. SOA is a non-negotiable issue for most of us and very few believe that a General who bombed civilians and journalists has suddenly become a dove. The lines are too firmly traced.

I also hope you see through all the I was a XX supporter and now I'm for Clark or I am currently an XX supporter but now am really liking Clark posts.

There have been a lot of smoke & mirror games on the internet & we're not falling for any of them. We're committed and we're not going anywhere.

If there's anyone more stubborn than a Dean supporter, it's a Kucinich supporter. You should know that lol! :P

[corporatewhore]

14. i wont support him because hes too conservative but i hope he

continues my friends who support dean support because of the reason i couldnt his policy towards free trade (that is my litmus test)

[dsc]

17. Simply amazing

That is what your posts are. I have never seen so many innaccuracies.

2.Dean is the furthest from Kucinich on most issues. Dennis opposes the Death Penalty. On MTP, Dean indicated he supports it because he was sorry a man, whose conviction was overturned and who was never re-tried, was not executed. All the other candidates are closer to Dennis on the death penalty though no one else is calling for an abolition.


One gigantic innacuracy. First, Dean was stating why not that the person should have been executed but why he had problems with the idea that life meant life. I saw the exchange and know what was said. Sharpton, remember him, also calls for abolition of the death penalty and Edwards, remember him, voted for the death penalty for a variety of federal crimes including murdering mail men. Dean is in favor for the death penalty for three crimes, one is terroris, two is murder of a child, three is murder of cops. Kerry, remember him, is in favor of the first of Dean's exceptions and the only one likely to be a federal crime. Score card, wrong on Dean, wrong on Sharpton, wrong on Edwards, wrong on Kerry and wrong on your quote.

4. Dennis led the opposition to the war. Dean LIED and said he was the only candidate against the war. In fact, Dean was the most pro-war of all the candidates, supporting Biden-Lugar, a much more radical resolution than the one passed. Clark and Sharpton were the only ones, outside of Dennis, who did not support some kind of war resolution.

The IRW had no limits on what Bush could do, no limits on what if any evidence Bush needed to act. Biden Lugar both limited both what Bush could do and had specific requiremnts as to when he could do it. Even the most adamant Kerry defenders don't say what you did, Biden and Lugar don't say what you did, Bush doesn't say what you did. So either everyone is wrong or you are.

5. Dennis led the opposition to the occupation, which is killing soldiers on a daily basis. He helped convince Kerry and Edwards to vote against the $87 billion for the occupation. Dean said he would give the $87 billion to Bush in the CNN debate. Dean is talking about staying in Iraq for years. Imagine all the lost health care funds and education funds to pay for Dean's long Iraq occupation.

Here you just plain made up facts. Dean was clear. The only way he would agree to the 87 billion is if Bush paid for it by reducing his tax cut. No other funding source woudl work. There is no way you mistakenly left that out. Either you didn't hear the statement and quoted a person who left the other part out on purpose or you purposely left out the other part. There is no other possibility.

9. Kucinich's supporters are working as hard as possible to get him as many delegates as possible in the convention so that he can win on the second, third or fourth ballot. The supporters of other candidates seem more interested in the general election outcome rather than in pushing one person

Huh? Of all the things we get criticised for this is literally unbeliveable. So now we aren't ardent enough.

[oostevo]

19. Whelp,

I'm a Kucinich supporter who's considering voting for Dean in the primary.

[HFishbine]

20. Why some Kucinich supporters need to study harder

(This was an endnote, that probably should have been a preface to begin with. I'm not trying to convince Kucinich supporters to switch to Dean. This post is for those Kucinich supporters who are trying to decide between Dean and Edwards as a second choice.)

1) On Capital Punishment

In the MTP interview refered to in the original post, Dean explained that, while he used to be against the death penalty under any circumstances, the murder of Polly Klaus and a similar case in Vermont had him reconsider. (1)

He now believes "the death penalty should be available for extreme and heinous crimes, such as terrorism or the killing of police officers or young children. But it must be carried out with scrupulous fairness." (2) (See footnote for further action Dean would take regarding capital punishment.)

This is certainly a little closer to Kucinich's position than Edwards who voted to pass a law that would allow children as young as 14 to face the death penalty (3)

2) On Labor

The original post holds up Edwards as a friend of labor. Yet Edwards twice voted against raising the minimum wage by $1 over three years.(4) He voted to nearly double the number of H-1B visas to allow more foreign workers to enter the country. (5) He also voted to change bankruptcy laws to make it easier for creditors to force debtors into a payment plan. (6)

Dean, on the other hand, supports a myriad of pro-labor positions too numerous to list here. They include card check off for union membership (ask a union person how important that is), signed a bill in Vermont to prohibit permanent replacement of striking workers and would do the same for federal employees, and signed the most sweeping family leave law in the country while governor. (7)

3) On the War

Dean frequently misspoke about being the only candidate to have opposed the war. It was something that made this supporter cringe. However, he was also the only candidate to ever give Kucinich props for his vote against the war on national TV -- on several occasions.

Dean said, time and time again, that he didn't think the evidence at hand supported attacking Iraq. Like Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun, he was among those who never voted for the war.

4) Withdrawing Troops from Iraq

Kucinich and Sharpton are the only candidates who support an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq (within 90 days). None of the candidates however are suggesting we leave a power vacuum. Denise, just like Dean, thinks that the way to get our troops out is to get multi-national forces in and Dean has a very clear and reasonable plan for doing so. (8)

5) Health Care

Only Sharpton and Kucinich favor single-payer health care. The differences between Dean and Edwards are significant. Edwards' proposal would expand health care by mandating that families insure their under-21 children. Those who can afford to purchase coverage through an insurance company will receive tax credits worth roughly $300. Poorer families will be required to pay to enroll their children in CHIPS (a government sponsored child insurance plan). The poorest children, as they are today, will be covered for free. Edwards plan incentivises the purchase of private insurance for children. He offers no solutions for un-insured adults.(9)

Dean's proposal would expand CHIPS, like Edwards, to cover people up to age 25 for middle and low income families. Adults who make up to 185% of the poverty level, would also be able to buy into CHIPS. To provide assistance to those who make more than 185% of the poverty level, Dean would create a health system similar to the one offered to federal employees and he'll offer tax breaks to make it more affordable. (10)

It is Dean's plan that offers the broadest coverage. Edwards' plan is more narrow and it is his that would funnel money (by mandate) to insurance companies.

6) Military Spending

Edwards voted to approve Bush's military budget every year he's been in office. (11) Edwards also voted to approve the National Missile Defense System (12) but voted against a bill that would require sanctions against China if they were found to be selling WMD.

Howard Dean pledges to keep our fighting force the most effective in the world, but he is clearly against the development of "battlefield" "bunker busting" or "low yield" nuclear weapons (13)(Edwards? Since he voted for Bush't miliatry bugets, he must favor them).

Dean also would actively seek to make the use of military force obsolete by asserting America's role in the world as a peaceful nation. He would seek to strengthen international alliances and repair damaged relations. He rejects the notion of pre-emptive war (which Edwards embraces to this day) as anything but a last resort and only when absolutely necessary to secure our country. (14)

It is one thing to say that one has an impression that one candidate is more likable than another, or more appealing, but to make a side-by-side comparison that ignores the facts is simply an exercise in ignorance.

We haven't even touched on the issues of civil liberties and GLBT rights, on which there are also marked differences between Dean and Edwards, but any honest look at the facts will clearly show that on principles and policies, Dean is far closer to Kucinich than Edwards.




1) http://www.demog.berkeley.edu/~gabriel/dean2004blog/Dean_MTP_June_22_2003.htm

2) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_capitalpunishment

3) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2264&can_id=CNC68243

4) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2644&can_id=CNC68243

5) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2915&can_id=CNC68243

6) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2658&can_id=CNC68243

7) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_labor

8) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_policy_foreign_iraq_7pointplan

9) http://www.johnedwards2004.com/healthcare-children.asp

10) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_health

11) http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=CNC68243

12) http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2187&can_id=CNC68243

13) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_policy_foreign_issue_nuclearweapons

14) http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/cg/index.html?type=page&pagename=policy_statement_foreign

[MuseRider]

21. Well,

I was very big on Dean from the beginning. Study all you like I find him disingenuous and well, never mind. I have done my homework and I can tell you a Dean candidacy in the GE will sorely try my steadfastness to this party. It matters not what is on paper or what he says, it changes so frequently he made me dizzy. Now, I have nothing but respect for those of you who support him so strongly but this is the reason I cannot.

[HFishbine]

22. I respect that

I do. I too would have a very hard time voting for anyone other than Dean in the GE (with the exception, honestly, of Kucinich), so I know how you feel. Stick with your guy by all means. I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I was only addressing Kucinich peeople, who for what ever reason, might be trying to decide between Dean or Edwards as a second choice.

[MuseRider]

24. Thanks

after writing that I felt a little bad. I hate to get into this but honestly, we have to do it. Every day I learn more and can define these guys better. We can all be on the same side later I guess.

[genius]

33. Double-speak doesn't change the facts. Dean wanted to execute an innocent

man in Vermont. His lack of regard for the right of innocent people to live is frightening. The man in Vermont was never re-tried because they lacked the evidence to prove guilt. He regretted that the man wasn't killed before being released. No other candidate has such an extreme position.

Dean is pro-NAFTA. In one debate, he flat out said he would not cancel NAFTA. That automatically places him behind Edwards. Dean's Vermont record proves he was management's friend- not labor's.

Insurance companies are not the friend of patients and Dean's romance with insurance companies and his plan that would enrich these companies is not a plan that merits our tax dollars. The money should go to health care.

Dean's willingness to say one thing and do another does not speak well for him. His Vermont record is extremely conservative.

On the subject of the war, Dean supported Biden-Lugar. That was much more likely to lead to war than the resolution Kerry and Edwards voted for.

Dean was crystal clear on his support for the $87 billion. Dennis asked Dean if he would give Bush the money and Dean said clearly and without any reservations, "Yes."

[HFishbine]

67. Tell you what

We'll let the candidates' statements and records as sourced in my post stand in contrast to your unsubstantiated opinions and let the people decide.

[waldenx]

23. I support Dean and Kucinich

but this stuff is a waste of time, because neither one of our guys are going to win.

[WilliamPitt]

26. The story was a red herring

Trust me. We ran it down. Whole lotta nuthin'.

[Desertrose]

27. thanks and a tip o' the hat ,Will

pretty much what I figured.....


Peace
DR

[stickdog]

28. So Kucinich supporters like DLC candidates more than Dean?

Here's my gig. When it comes to telling Americans the blunt truth that the corporate media and the Bush enabling Dems have been hiding from us, only Kucinich, Sharpton and Dean pass the muster. Clark comes close, but Kerry is far too safe, nuanced and politic while Edwards is a "New American Optimist."

Our candidate simply must have the balls to at least ADDRESS the honest, disturbing truth about:

the 2000 "election"
9/11
the Patriot Act
the anthrax attack
the 9/11 "investigation"
black box voting
the hugely irresponsible government growth under Bush
the ridiculous tax giveaways for the rich
Iraq
the regressive nature of FICA

I won't vote for a candidate who plays by the same corporate media and pink tutu Dem rules that enabled Bush to hijack this country.

We need to hear some unvarnished TRUTH from our candidate and we need to hear it NOW. Playing nice in another vain effort to woo people who might be "disturbed" by the disgusting truth may just end democracy as we know it. That's what's at stake here, and it's far more important that this or that vote, this or that issue statement or this or that unobtainable campaign promise.

This is why the media Wellstoned Dean. And this is why the media continuously lampoons and derides Kucinich. Because we aren't aloud to discuss the truth any more. See, truth makes us "angry" and "unelectable."

Therefore, I fail to see how Kucinich or any of his supporters can possibly align themselves with Edwards or Kerry in any way, shape or form.

[HFishbine]

31. Um...

Awesome!

[corporatewhore]

32. I could never back kerry after he approved of bushs fast track to FTAA

i risked arrest and bodily injury to protest it in miami

[genius]

34. And all those stances Dean supported

On 9/13, Dean (not Kerry, Edwards, Clark or Kucinich) called for a re-evalution of the importance of our civil liberties. By the way, I'm not voting for the other candidates in the primary either but I'm simply pointing out that they are all more liberal and closer to Kucinich than Dean is. Dennis stand out as the one candidate who supports all the values we claim we believe in.

[stickdog]

35. And Kucinich used to be anti-abortion. And he's for a flag burning

amendment.

Dean misspoke a couple of days after 9/11, before all but the most informed saw the BFEE power grab writing on the wall.

Nobody's perfect. But Dean's blunt, truthful criticisms of Bush for the past year are far closer to Kucinich's than Kerry's or Edwards'/

I mean, how can you support folks who propped up Bush by saying Saddam's capture made us FAR safer and who propped up Ashcroft's attack on the Bill of Rights by saying that people don't need fair trials before they are executed?

Doesn't that stuff override how many inches left somebody stands on an unobtainable policy issue?

[genius]

36. THis is false. Kucinich was never anti-abortion. HIs issue was finances

Should we pay for Suzi's 35th abortion? He came to see it as an issue of freedom and is now fully behind the funding. It shows that reasonable people can convince him of the correctness of their posisiotns. I'd rather have him than someone who's close-minded.

[stickdog]

40. And Dean saw the correctness of opposing the Patriot Act.

Aren't you applying a double standard here?

[genius]

50. Dean wanted to re-evaluate the importance of civil liberites

Dean can play inconsistent all he wants but he was on the wrong side of civil liberties. He's also on the wrong side of the Bill of Rights,in his cutting of funds needed for defendants to get a fair trial and in his opposition to a fair trial (what he calls a technicality in the way to getting a conviction - something he wants eliminated).

[stickdog]

53. Kucinich says, "Don't burn flags. Burn the Bill of Rights instead!"

But that's OK, right?

Must I reiterate that no candidate is perfect?

[MuseRider]

59. "Must I reiterate that no candidate is perfect?"

Very true and we each have to find the one we are most comfortable with. Mine is DK, Dean makes me uncomfortable. Yours is Dean and apparently DK makes you uncomfortable.

[stickdog]

61. Only since he got in bed with Edwards ... (nt)

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

71. baldly false

He voted in favor of all of the following, nearly all of which have nothing to do with finances. Parental consent, partial birth abortion ban, the gag rule (even when the clinic used its own money), prohibiting military personel from getting abortions even if they pay for them, prohibiting prisoners from getting abortions even if they pay for them. Please do research.

[MuseRider]

37. Dean misspoke

How many times are we supposed to buy that particular line?

[stickdog]

39. How many times are we supposed to buy the media induced meme that

saying something years ago -- or saying something without such politic precision that a partial quote can be pulled out of context and manipulated for its "shock value" disqualifies a candidate?

Do you buy the fact that Dean misspoke about Saddam's capture?

About giving Bin Laden a fair trial?

About treating other countries right because one day we won't be the most powerful nation on earth?

About Bush's cover up of 9/11 causing legitimate suspicions?

Because if you believe that telling the truth is a "gaffe", Dennis sure has some doozies!

[MuseRider]

41. "Telling the truth is a gaffe?"

I never said anything of the sort. I will tell you that I stopped listening to anything Dean said many many months ago. I do not like people who misspeak over and over again. I do not like people who will say things to make themselves look good even though they are not true. I fell off the Dean bandwagon long before he was ever a serious candidate because I thought very little of him and his "truths", I never said "gaffes", lies perhaps. So I cannot talk to you about anything Dean has said in the last year because frankly I have not cared for him or anything he has to say.

[stickdog]

44. So you don't pay any attention to him, but you know he's always lying

anyway?

OK, I guess, but that puzzles me a bit.

[Paulie]

45. Well, Dean* is the Only

* = "Except Dennis."

[stickdog]

55. Politicans make themselves out to look as good as they possibly can,

even if they have to use asterisks.

Even Kucinich.

[MuseRider]

47. No, I paid attention to him

and once I found he was saying something different all the time I quit. I do listen to the debates and see things here on DU but I never have cared to check out his ever changing ideas and policies. Maybe I am just not smart enough but I prefer to actually know what my candidate is about without constant research to find out the daily changes. I mean really, I felt like a dolt when I had to change my story all the time when trying to interest people.

[stickdog]

56. What? What did Dean change all the time?

Or is that too distant of a memory?

[MuseRider]

58. Pretty distant.

I recall something about retirement age, I recall trying to pinpoint his IRW stance. Look, I really do not want to go into this again, it was over for me a long time ago with Dean. See my post to you below, #57 I think. I am getting tired of fighting.

[genius]

46. Will the real Howard Dean stand up?

Unlike Kucinich, who liberalized his position on finincing of abortions long before he became a candidate, Dean can't seem to keep his stories straight - such as the Social Security minimum retirement age, where he said one thing and almost instantly claimed he had said something different. I think the problem with Dean is that even he does not know what he stands for and says whatever he thinks the current crowd wants to hear. All Bush would need to do to beat Dean would be to air commericals replaying Dean's inconsistent remarks.

[stickdog]

54. It was all 'gotcha' politics. Dean was being quizzed on something he said

8 years ago!

Haven't you seen how the media treats Kucinich the exact same way?

I think the problem with Dean is that even he does not know what he stands for and says whatever he thinks the current crowd wants to hear.

That can be said about ANY politician. It was said about Clinton, Gore and Bush and will be said about Kerry and Edwards if it hasn't already been said.

All Bush would need to do to beat Dean would be to air commericals replaying Dean's inconsistent remarks.

Yeah, Bush is certainly a paragon of precise consistency!

If you really buy into "gotcha" politics that much, you might not want to watch Kucinich's woeful performance on Hardball.

[MuseRider]

57. Stickdog

this is not personal. I have a huge respect for the Dean supporters who have hung with him through all of this so please do not take this personally. It is not what the media has said it is Dean himself. Dean is the one who says one thing, then changes then changes again. It is not what the media has said or done, we are all attuned to that. Dean as a candidate represents to me all that is wrong and that is for me personally. He is probably a hell of a guy but I do not want him running my country. K? Not personal against any of you who see him differently. I tried to "get it" with him but it failed. I need someone who is more consistent and much more liberal.

[stickdog]

62. I'm not saying you have support Dean over Kucinich.

I'm saying that Dean and Kucinich both tell the cold hard truth about Bush -- the truth that people need to hear, the truth that the media has suppressed since 9/12. In contrast, there are a lot of places that Kerry and Edwards simply won't go. And we desperately need our nominee to tell the whole, awful truth to the American voters.

That's it. That's my point. If it doesn't move you to support Dean over Kerry & Edwards, then I'd ask you to consider how much closer Dean's fundraising and grassroots support in to DK than it is to rich lobbyist/banker backed Kerry or rich trial lawyer backed Edwards.

I've distributed Kucinich's literature, and I'll support him if he's still in the race and Dean isn't. Personally, I think the closest candidates to Kucinich are Sharpton, Dean and Clark in that order.

Considering that Bush has almost bankrupted the government, I'm willing to give Dean a pass on budget balancing because I think we need it and I think it's a winning position to take against Bush. I'm also willing to give Dean a pass on being tough on crime because he can't be Willie Hortoned. On health care, he's a doctors and he's actually had laudable success in VT. Finally, gun control REALLY hurt Al Gore, so I'm happy Dean's advocates states' rights, and I think anybody who doesn't immediately concedes the South.

But I'm far, far more concerned about the fundamental lack of truth that is being reported in US media than I am about any of these single issues. And when it comes to telling us the truth, when it comes to shouting out that the emperor has no clothes, when it comes to saying all the things I've been saying about Bush for years now but the media has been actively suppressing -- only Kucinich, Sharpton and Dean rate a decent grade.

[janx]

48. Is this post original to DU, or did it come from somewhere else?

It almost has an official quality about it, and I almost recognize it--but I'm not sure that I've read it before.

[genius]

64. The details of the candidates records have been posted and re-posted

It seemed important to discuss this now as Dean supporters are working overtime to try to get votes from Kucinich supporters and it won't work.

[Uzybone]

49. Excellent post

n/t

[mountebank]

51. One reason this Kucinich supporter is rooting for Dean.

I notice all your reasons deal with policy, and so basically fall on the right/left axis of the political spectrum. There is another axis: libertarian v. authoritarian. Basically, on the libertarian side you believe in granting more power to the people. This is a big part of both Dean's and Kucinich's movements. And for me, it is the most important axis. So I have been rooting for Dean and he is my second choice. I would absolutely support him.

[HFishbine]

68. Great observation

That's another important similarity. Thanks for pointing that out.

[progressivebydesign]

52. Then why did they support Edwards in Iowa??

I just don't get it! They willingly helped Edwards take second in Iowa.. so I don't understand why they'd not consider Dean, who is more like DK than anyone else in the race.

[genius]

65. Kucinich is closer to Edwards and Edwards is running an honest campaign

Kucinich and Edwards both oppose the occupation, unlike Dean. Kucinich and Edwards both oppose NAFTA, unlike Dean. Kucinich and Edwards both support the right of defendants to have a fair trial, unlike Dean. This is just a start but there's probably no need to continue.

[HFishbine]

69. Is Edwards closer to Kucinich than Dean?

When confronted with this question, we've seen responses that point out differences between Dean and Kucincih, but that's a red herring. A side by side, issue by issue comparison of Dean AND Edwards to Kucinich shows the truth.

One can engage in a lot of hot air-fuled "He is," "No he isn't" rehtoric, or one can engage in an intellectually honest comparison. To see Dean and Edwards match up side by side on issues important to Kucinich voters, check out post 20.

[vision]

60. I have only donated to Kucinich

but the constant bashing of Dean makes me reconsider. I think I will donate to Dean. He is not perfect, even Dennis isn't but he is the closest. But Dean at least has been fairly constant in attacking Bush.

Dean has been vocal and real while others have not been as forthright IMO. They have tried to polite and dance around the issue.

Well I am tired of dancing. The louts that are in control of the Republican party are bullies and need to be shown up for what they are. I do not want genteel Democrats, I want bloods & guts fighters. I want Hellfire and brimstone brought down on the Republicans. I want anger, I don't want a kinder and gentler version of Bush.

Looking at the other candidates besides Kucinich and Sharpton, Dean is the closest to what I want.

I am told to "get over it" and follow along with the leader. Well I tell you what, I grew up a Democrat in Republican Kansas and I did not follow the leader there and I am not about to follow it now. Until somebody gets enough delegates to control the show I will continue to be vocal and support those who are also.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

73. I'm caucusing today. I was considering Kucinich as my back-up to

Dean.

I guess I'll find another candidate. Thanks for the heads up.