What We've Lost according to a reserve soldier who fought in Iraq.

[Pirate Smile]

From Andrew Sullivan's blog:

What We've Lost

15 Sep 2006 04:38 pm

A reserve soldier who fought in Iraq writes:

I was deployed in my reserve unit (USMCR) as part of operation Desert Storm and Desert Shield. Marine infantry, and we were on the front lines, supposedly to guard a gunship base, but really, though, the gunships guarded us.

Not too much later, it was time to take prisoners. One of the platoons went north, and when they came back, there were stories about how Iraqi soldiers lined the roads, trying to surrender. I spent a week guarding Iraqi men in a makeshift prison camp, a way-station really, and more than I could count. They didn't look like they were starving or dehydrated. Apparently, once the ground war began, they just pitched their weapons and headed south at first opportunity. The more I've thought about it, the more I realize that they knew bone deep that they'd get fair treatment. We gave them MREs (with the pork entree's removed) but almost immediately some Special Forces guys arrived and set up a real chow line for them. We gave each man a blanket, (I kept an extra as a souvie) and I think I saw a Special Forces doc giving some of them a once over.

Once, only once, one of them got all irritated and tried to get in one of the Corporal's faces, loud. (I was a lance-corporal). He wouldn't back down, so the Corporal gave him an adjustment, a rifle butt-stroke to his gut, not hard, but he went down. The Corporal sent me for the medic. The guy was ok, and now calm (or at least understanding the situation), and hand-signed that he was out of smokes and really, really needed one... Not a bad guy, just stressed-dumb and needing a smoke. None of the others prisoners in the camp even registered it.

We went north to mop up not long after that. I saw the Iraqi weapons: rocket launchers a little smaller than semi-trailers, hidden in buildings, AKs in piles, big Soviet mortars and anti-tank mines, everywhere but unarmed. They had food too. Pasteurized milk to drink, but most gone bad by then. Some of the mortar rounds were still in crates. They had long trenches that were hard to see in the dunes, bunkers with maps, fire-plans laid out, and blankets, all placed with decent vantage for command and control. They even had wire laid for land-line communications. The point is, they could have fought. Not won, no they couldn't have won, but they could have fought. Instead, they chose to surrender.

Looking back, I think that one of the main drivers in these men's heads was that they knew, absolutely, that they'd get fair treatment from us, the Americans. We were the good guys. The Iraqis on the line knew they had an out, they had hope, so they could just walk away. (A few did piss themselves when someone told them we were Marines. Go figure.) Still, they knew Americans would be fair, and we were.

Thinking hard on what I now know of history, psychology, and the meanness of politics, that reputation for fairness was damn near unique in world history. Can you tell me of any major military power that had it? Ever? France? No. Think Algeria. The UK? Sorry, Northern Ireland, the Boxer Rebellion in China... China or Russia. I don't think so. But America had it. If those men had even put up token resistance, some of us would not have come back. But they didn't even bother, and surrendered at least in part because of our reputation. Our two hundred year old reputation for being fair and humane and decent. All the way back to George Washington, and from President George H.W. Bush all the way down to a lance-corporal jarhead at the front.

Its gone now, even from me. I can't get past that image of the Iraqi, in the hood with the wires and I'm not what you'd call a sensitive type. You know the picture. And now we have a total bust-out in the White House, and a bunch of rubber-stamps in the House, trying to make it so that half-drowning people isn't torture. That hypothermia isn't torture. That degradation isn't torture. We don't have that reputation for fairness anymore. Just the opposite, I think. And the next real enemy we face will fight like only the cornered and desperate fight. How many Marines' lives will be lost in the war ahead just because of this asshole who never once risked anything for this country?

This president must never be forgiven for what he has done to the reputation of this country.

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/what_weve_lost.html

:(

[Pharaoh]

1. K&R Good buddy!

the neocons have lost it completely.......

[frankly_fedup2]

37. Sorry to interrupt, but what does K&R mean? I see it a lot on posts.

Hope I haven't made myself look stupid.

[rubberducky]

2. This needs to make it``s way to congress.

k&r

[calimary]

16. Absolutely.

To everybody who still tries to rationalize torture as a "good" thing to keep us safe.

K&R - AND bookmarked.

[IndianaGreen]

3. Outstanding!

K&R

It is so sad that everything this Gulf War veteran wrote is true. We have become what we hated in other tyrannies.

[GetTheRightVote]

4. It is the real reason why the GC must remain as it is,

and those who dare step beyond its words must be punished so that the world knows that we do truly hold these "rules of war" dearly to our hearts.

:kick:

[many a good man]

5. "Must never be forgiven"

We have no choice but to turn over Beelzebubba and prosecute him to the full extent of the (international) law. There is no other way to salvage our nation's honor and reputation.

[jwirr]

10. And included in those crimes should be one more thing that

*ss dishonored us with: preemptive war. Until now we have prided ourselves in never striking first. It was a matter of honor.

[AntiFascist]

11. I agree 100%, not only for the sake of justice.....

but for the sake of saving face, it's the least we can do to protect what's left of our reputation.

[Greyhound]

6. "Still, they knew Americans would be fair, and we were."

Thanks for this.

I've said this before but, never in my worst nightmares did I ever imagine that I would look back on the Nixon administration and think "at least he had the country's welfare at heart".

The sadness and the shame are nearly unbearable. :banghead:

[civildisoBDence]

30. If you beat your head against a wall, it'll surely crack.

I feel just like your emoticon.

Three simple facts about torture should end this entire discussion:
1. It doesn't work.
2. It puts our soldiers at risk.
3. It's profoundly immoral.

What more needs to be said?

Newsprism

[bvar22]

7. Proud to K&R

:patriot:

[napi21]

8. I just sent a copy of this to my son in the Navy in Italy.

I spoke to him this afternoon, and he's positive the Dems will regain control of Congress in Nov. He told me Shrub sould be impeached! He's not usually a very political guy, but he's really turned against Shrub and all the Pubs!

He also was in Desert Storm. I figured he''d find a kindred spirit with the marine who posted that blog.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Wow. Just a quiet wow.

K&R

[Doctor_J]

12. Sully the Smirk-loving, war-loving pig posted this?

Even the devoted whores are leaving.

[Vinnie From Indy]

22. I hope Sully is FOREVER tarred with his support of this war!!!!!

I, for one, will always remind people of his shitty rhetoric in support of Bush and this war. It will take many decades for Sully to even approach redemption in my mind.

That being said, I am glad it appears he has fallen off the bandwagon.

[Bozita]

13. Surrender is no longer a viable option for enemy combatants

Good move Dumbya, you fucking dunce!

[necso]

14. Good piece,

well-written; I especially like the "You know the picture." (It can be taken multiple ways.)

One should never underestimate the reckless courage of the desperate, who see fighting-to-the-death as a better option than surrendering to torture, humiliation, deprivation and degradation -- and maybe even a worse death.

And it can be good to have a reputation as a military (and a nation) that treats its prisoners well: providing for their needs; treating them with basic respect; allowing them to retain some dignity; and even providing them a certain amount of comfort (peer-association, smokes, simple recreation, etc).

The founders, some of whom suffered and died on British prison hulks, might even argue that it's a matter of principle -- the sort of principle that they suffered and died for -- the sort of principle that this country was founded on -- the sort of principle that this country has continued to suffer and die for... at least until now.

But what good does it do to argue principles with a neocon? Neocons have no scruples* (that is, their acts demonstrate the complete lack of any barriers to, or limitations on, their behavior, as should be imposed by truly-held guiding-principle -- and recognizing that principle only has life and force when instantiated in behavior); but they're adept at using the appearance and language of principle (or whatever avails) to mask their amoral deeds.

*: The image of sharp little stones in one's shoe is characterizing, imo. Because just as one adjusts to the presence of these stones (for instance, by adjusting one's foot/walking differently), and just as they impose limitations on behavior (it's unlikely that one would be able to run as fast), so the truly-held principle (on both the conscious and other-than-conscious levels; but recognizing that conscious "scruples" are the more easily faked) must guide one's behavior (make this behavior adjust, change, from what it might otherwise be) and impose limitations on it (ie, in actual practice, not just in the form of manipulations, deceptions, pretense and hollow words -- corruptions all, which debase principle).

(It only truly remains a scruple if you don't remove it or displace it out-of-the-way. And those who fake scruples are like those who fake having stones in their shoe: when the moment demands it (or when the moment will allow it, without exposing their deceptions) -- like in the face of a direct, deadly, personal threat (or some temptation they can't resist) -- they'll (usually) run like they don't, no matter how convincing their acting was before.)

[NanceGreggs]

15. It doesn't happen very often to someone like me ...

... who has such a BIG MOUTH. But this post leaves me speechless. There is nothing to add - except, of course, a K & R.

[calimary]

18. No kidding. This says it all.

[file83]

17. Nothing will make a soldier surrender faster than facing an enemy

who is better than you both in the battlefield and in human rights.

[wiley]

19. He appears to have finally gotten it.

Does the Statue of Liberty have to self-immolate to get attention?

How self-evident of a truth is a Democracy capable of ignoring?

[KeepItReal]

20. Take the power & titles away from Bush & Co. and they ain't worth 1 Marine

...or Sailor...or Airman/woman....or Trooper...or Coast Guardsman....or Cadet.

on edit:
And you know what, I think those f*ckers (Bush & Co.) know it...and they are like, "Better you than me...Just don't get captured, OK?"

[vickitulsa]

38. I agree with you 1000 percent! NOT ONE LIFE

should be sacrificed or one drop of blood shed purely to enhance * & Co's bottom lines and add billions to their wealth!

I doubt * or any of his cronies in crime truly believe in a HELL, but if they do, they should be quaking in their (non-combat) boots by now, dreading their judgment day with a cold, knifelike fear....

I believe this corporal's sentiments are indicative of many thousands of our troops' already, with a lot more soon to follow his line of reasoning and turn on the Chimp with justifiable outrage and wrath. Somehow I don't think the criminals squatting in OUR White House are going to like how it feels to be loathed by a high percentage of our military personnel.

I also agree with the poster who said that the only way we can regain our good standing with the world is if we Americans take all the steps necessary to properly and justly "deal with" those who have smeared America's reputation and wrought destruction around the globe with their reprehensible actions.

When populations worldwide see that MOST citizens of this once-great nation want to take it back from the criminals who lied and thieved their way into power, and when they see us risk life and limb to do that instead of allowing our troops to risk their lives and limbs in an evil enterprise involving war profiteering and assistance to fascist regimes elsewhere, THEN AND ONLY THEN will they believe we can still consider ourselves worthy of the good rep we once had.

I honestly believe nothing else will do it.

That still won't solve all the problems or clean up the mess * and the Darksiders have made in other lands or our own, but it will take that to even make a good start.

If we do that, make the stand and do everything we can to throw the warmongering thugs out en masse, then perhaps -- just perhaps -- we could again feel the outpouring of love, compassion, and respect that was shown to America immediately after the attacks of 9/11!

I'd bet that a lot of them would even pitch in to HELP us win back our country! If not militarily, then at least with their verbal support and encouragement.

Those who have never been through something like what we're experiencing now may always wonder what took us so long; but at least they'll see that we ultimately refused to back down from the threats against us coming from our own seats of power. And since a great many of them HAVE been through something similar, they could be expected to understand and forgive us more readily IF we correct the situation here SOON.

This is why I recommend DU to everyone I talk with -- especially online and especially those from other countries, since I figure the more people see of the attitudes expressed here, the more they'll recognize how desperate we are to remove the criminal, warmongering, elitist and wealth-grabbing thugs who now rule us! They can also see here at DU that a great many of us are NOT duped OR enlisted in the criminal cause of *Co as well as witnessing firsthand just how strongly we feel about this issue.

They already know what we're up against. They just need to see that MOST OF US in America are willing to STAND UP AND FIGHT for what's right -- not what is rightWING!

I'm so thankful for this soldier's clear expression of the truth. :patriot: Hope his message is read by many millions....

[harris8]

21. K & R (nt)

[berni_mccoy]

23. We have truly lost a great deal.

[midnight]

24. Yes you are right - we have lost our sense of fairness.

With that it is hard to have our Constitution enacted, our votes counted, or people treated humanely. Under the Republicans we lost our sense of fairness.....

[Straight Shooter]

25. Everyone will pay for the crimes of the bush administration, but not them

I sincerely believe there will not be impeachment, there will not be crimes charged. At best I hope their criminal actions will be completely exposed.

Why do I think they will escape justice? Because to go after these crooks full throttle will drain America of much-needed time and energy which should be directed towards mitigating the damage that these ethically and morally challenged individuals have wrought upon this country and the world.

[vickitulsa]

39. You may be right, SS.

But I hope they pay for what they've done; and I think at the very least that their criminal actions will be exposed, because that much alone is hugely important and significant.

We DO need all the time, energy, and money we can find to repair the damage, but first we've got to stop the bleeding, as at least one DUer with that screen name apparently saw clearly. :)

And if Americans could at least pressure a Dem majority House to BEGIN impeachment proceedings, everyone worldwide will see that many here understand and regret the harm done by * & Co. That alone is critical, IMO.

[zonkers]

26. Kick and Reccomend.

[leesa]

27. Very simply written and easy to understand, even for Republicans.

[opihimoimoi]

28. Kick, a very good thread/post, imho....Bush is so counter productive

its pathetic.

[Greyhound]

29. Read this post it is what we're looking at when we get the country backn/t

:kick:

[Uncle Joe]

31. Semper Fi to the jarhead that wrote this.

:patriot: Thanks for posting Pirate Smile.


Kicked and recommended

:kick:

[karlrschneider]

32. An angle I hadn't really thought about. Makes sense to me.

...

[Downtown Hound]

33. It's been said many times that the Germans at the end

of World War 2 would travel many miles just so that they could surrender to Americans. They knew their cause was lost, and they knew that they could get good treatment from us as opposed to Russia or some of the other countries. Think of how many GI's lives were probably saved because of this fact.

That's all gone now thanks to the dipshit deserter-in-chief.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

34. Yeah, Haditha even more than Abu Ghraib

has shown the Iraqi nationalists and fighters that the US, at least to an extent, has become tough to differentiate from, e.g., the Mongolian hordes at their worst-- surrender, and we'll still you mow you and your family down without a second thought. Just the circumstances of these atrocities, and the extent of their sheer effrontery, far exceed even the depths of My Lai and similar criminal behavior in Vietnam. Hard to imagine how much we've lost with this idiocy.

[fooj]

35. Amen.

What more does anyone need? He is RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

This president must never be forgiven for what he has done to the reputation of this country.

[JohnnyLib2]

36. yessir!

In this veteran-heavy area, near Fort Knox, there are a lot of comments and quiet expressions of disgust about this whole issue. The retirees, the vets from Korea, RVN, the Gulf, know about honor, know about illegal orders, know when "that just ain't right." And they know for sure where the chain of command stops.

Yeah, we've lost a lot. This man has written a wonderful piece.

[vickitulsa]

40. "This man has written a wonderful piece."

And he did so in such an informal style, surely anyone can "take that medicine" as it goes down without running away from the first taste. What he reveals is sickening, yes, but his way of saying it is just what we need right now!

Sounds like he was simply writing to his own family and freely stating in conversational terms what he believed in his deepest soul. We needed this voice on our side!

Or, perhaps better said, we needed this voice to rally behind! :) :patriot:

[Rene]

41. What are we going to each do to ensure HONEST ELECTIONS in a few weeks.

The e-voting is easily hacked in all it's forms....and the "central tabulating" is especially vulnerable. These repugs are not going out easily...I'm sure the programming fixes are in.
We each have to spend an hour at our vote polling/counting place at the end of the night...and verify accurate counting/reporting.
We HAVE to bring vote counting out into the light.

Write and call officials in your TOWN and STATE and demand HONEST voting/counting/reporting.

Ensure people in YOUR town are not dis-enfranchised from voting by any nasty tricks. Volunteer to drive people to the polls who have transportation issues. Ensure polling places are clearly marked and communicated to everyone you know. Report ANY issues to the phone lines that I'm sure will be available. Take pictures/videos/tape recordings of ANYTHING you think is being done wrong.