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LUHiWY Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:21 AM
Original message
Ethanol a scam?

http://pesn.com/2005/04/12/6900080_Acetone_and_Ester/Ethanol_Mandates_Subsidies.doc



Ethanol Mandates & Subsidies


If you believe ethanol advocates, ethanol is the savior of our rural economy and environment and is a vanguard in the war on terror. However, a hard look at the facts shows that the purported benefits of ethanol are an illusion. It’s not cost-effective, requires massive subsidies, has negligible environmental and economic impacts, and doesn’t enhance energy security. When it all comes down to it, ethanol amounts to nothing more than “subsidized food burning” as Cornell University’s David Pimentel puts it.

The Taxpayers League of Minnesota strongly OPPOSES ethanol mandates and subsidies on the following grounds:

Not Cost-Effective. Ethanol is not cost-effective and requires large government subsidies and mandates. A gallon of ethanol costs $2.24 to produce compared to 63 cents per gallon for gasoline. $1.4 billion in government subsidies and mandates are needed to fill this gap.1

Uses More Energy Than It Generates. Research by Cornell University scientist David Pimentel shows that 29 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is contained in ethanol. For each gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 22,000 BTU (British Thermal Units).2

Negligible Environmental Impacts. Ethanol has a host of negative environmental impacts that wipe out any positive impacts. Studies by the California Air Resources Board show that blending ethanol with gasoline increases nitrogen oxide (NOx) and other smog-forming emissions.3

Voids Car Warranties. New car warranties won’t cover engine problems that result from using fuel blended with more than 10% ethanol.

Lowers Gas Mileage. Ethanol-blended gasoline decreases gas mileage by 3 to 5 percent at 10 percent ethanol blend and 6 to 10 percent less with a 20 percent ethanol blend – increasing costs to consumers.

Hurts Livestock & Poultry Farmers. A study by the GAO4 concluded that higher corn prices generated by ethanol hurts livestock and poultry producers because the cost of feed stock increases (70% of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the U.S.). The National Center for Policy Analysis estimates that ethanol production adds $1 billion annually to the cost of beef production.5

Increases Food Prices. By increasing the cost of feed stock for livestock and poultry producers, ethanol production increases the price to consumers for meat, milk and eggs.

Doesn’t Create Net New Jobs. The employment effects of ethanol are a wash because, as shown by economist Ralph Brown6, ethanol production lowers gas tax receipts – reducing jobs in highway construction and maintenance and in sectors adversely affected by higher corn prices. Ethanol doesn’t create net new employment, it simply shifts employment from one sector to another.

Won’t Improve Energy Security. The notion that more ethanol use will promote energy independence and security is a fantasy. Ethanol can never realistically become a large enough share of our energy to make a difference. Even if we increased ethanol production by 1000 percent it would only account for one percent of total energy consumption in the U.S. according to University of South Dakota agricultural economist Ralph Brown. If all cars in the U.S. were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, corn production would cover 97 percent of U.S. land area.7 In addition, reducing our oil imports will not reduce our vulnerability to oil price swings because oil prices are set in the world market, not domestically.

And the list goes on and on. The more you read about ethanol, the more you can agree with the statement by the president of the Agribusiness Council, Nicholas Hollis, that “Ethanol is the largest scam in our nation’s history.”8
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goddess40 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. I avoid it as my car isn't designed to run on it
I'm afraid it will destroy my engine - when they design cars, like Brazil, then I'll use it.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I wouldn't be overly concerned about that aspect.
A 90/10 gasoline/ethanol mix doesn't lower the octane rating -- that's the resistance to pre-detonation or "pinging" caused by lower quality fuel. However, ethanol does contain fewer calories of energy than gasoline, which accounts for the reduction in fuel economy you'll experience with 90/10.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Isn't it that ethanol can be hard on gaskets, washers, etc whose
useable lives are diminished by exposure to alcohol? Or is this just urban legend?
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. There's no rubber insiide the engine. Alcohol may degrade
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 09:10 AM by leveymg
rubber fuel lines or components in fuel pumps, etc. somewhat more quickly than gasoline. But, any difference will take years to show up -- probably longer than you'll keep the car. These are normal replacement parts, anyway, which need to be checked or replaced eventually on any older vehicle.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. You know the old saying, "Seems too good to be true, probably isn't"
On top of eveything else. ethanol production is strongly supported by the coal industry, as many of the new plants going up to distill the stuff are powered by "clean coal." This, of course, cancels out most of the net gain in terms of reduced hydrocarbon production.
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Sorwen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. The Taxpayers League of Minnesota
That's where you lost me. They're a right-wing organization that doesn't want to pay taxes for anything. I would not believe anything that came from them. Ethanol may get overhyped, but a lot of those points against it have been disputed.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Let's focus on the message, not the messenger here.
Most of this is consistent with other sources. There is dispute over the issues of net gain in termes of energy independence and hydrocarbon emissions. No disputing the loss of MPG, however, because of simple chemistry -- ethanol contains about 40 percent less energy per volume than regular, unleaded gasoline. That means an accompanying rise is the cost of motor fuel.
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Sorwen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. It's not all consistent with other sources.
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 08:55 AM by Sorwen
The MPG loss is, of course, an undisputable fact, but most of the other points are based on research which does not consistently give the same results. It's easy to quote two studies which support your view while ignoring the others, and the fact that it's from the taxpayers league should make you very skeptical. I don't have the time to dispute all the points. The Pimentel study has been widely disproven. The argument about voiding the warranty is pointless because most ethanol is sold as a 10% blend, and E85 is made for cars designed to run on it. Ethanol does get overhyped because it can only replace a certain percentage of gasoline, but the numbers here in the last point seem a little misleading if not wrong - we don't have to produce ethanol from just corn, and they should be calculating how much gasoline is replaced, not how much total energy is supplied by ethanol.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Yes, the Pimentel findings are in dispute,
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 09:05 AM by leveymg
and I acknowledge that there is controversy over the issues of net gains in energy savings and emissions, and the magnitude. Ehtanol's certainly no panacea, and may be far less cost effective than investments made in other energy saving/production technologies. More than anything else, it seems to be another boondoggle for the motor fuels refiners and distributors and agribusiness.
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Sorwen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Here are some more numbers regarding energy security
These are based on my own calculations and not Ralph Brown's. I think it's possible to roughly triple ethanol production to 15 billion gallons if we start producing it from cellulose, and we could also divert some corn from exports without disrupting the feed market too much. 15 billion gallons of ethanol is equivalent to about 10.7 billion gallons of gasoline after accounting for the lower energy content. 10.7 billion gallons of gasoline requires about 550 million barrels of crude oil to produce. This is equal to about 15% of U.S. crude oil imports. That's not going to solve our energy problems, but it's not insignificant.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Have you done cost calculations?
I'd be interested in hearing what you think will be the cost-benefits compared to status quo -- macro and consumer -- and compared to investments in other technologies. What do you calculate would be the impact on food costs?
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Sorwen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. my opinion
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 10:58 AM by Sorwen
Studies have shown that prices of corn and corn substitutes increase due to increased ethanol production. That has some effect on the livestock industry. However, byproducts from ethanol production can be fed to livestock, and substitutes for corn such as wheat could be fed to livestock. Wheat prices would increase, but studies have shown the increase to be not too substantial. The livestock industry is not suffering right now. At some point, if too much corn was diverted from feeding, then there could be some negative impacts on the livestock industy, but increased use of corn for ethanol can also come from increased yields and decreased exports.

I would expect that the effect on consumer food prices would be minimal. Continued advances in technologies and yields have been increasing U.S. agricultural productivity, which has led to continued decreases in real prices of farm commodities. If the price of food increases, it's not because wheat or corn costs an extra 10 cents per bushel. Food prices are more likely to increase due to rising fuel costs. Vegetable oil prices could decrease because corn oil is a byproduct from ethanol production when using the wet-mill process.

As far as comparing it to investments in other technologies, I think there are better technologies to invest in than corn ethanol. Corn ethanol gets the money because it's politically popular, and it's easy for politicians to support corn ethanol and say they're doing something about energy and the environment. I don't think it's bad that they're investing in corn ethanol because I think it is a positive, and it's a least a start, but I think if they were really serious they would invest more in other technologies. I think cellulosic ethanol, biodiesel, and other alternative fuels offer much more promise than corn ethanol, and I think the best use of resources would probably be to invest in more fuel efficient vehicles. I'll defend corn ethanol because I think it's a positive, but I think it's just a small part of the solution to our energy and environmental problems.
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Sorwen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Also
The amount of corn fed to livestock and poultry has not decreased as ethanol production has increased. In fact, feed use has been higher than ever over the last 2-3 years. The info from the taxpayer's league says that 70% of corn has been fed to animals. That's predicatably too high. In the 1980s and '90s, a little over 60% of corn was fed. The percentage has decreased a little over the last couple years, but the total amount has stayed the same or increased. Exports have been pretty much constant over the last couple decades. Feed use has been able to stay at the same level despite the rapid growth of the ethanol industry because corn production has increased, and the increase in production has been mostly due to higher yields.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks, Sorwen
That's very helpful, balanced information.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. "16. The real research from legitimate sources consistently shows ethanol"
"16. The real research from legitimate sources consistently shows ethanol has a postive net energy balance. ..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=67105&mesg_id=67638
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LUHiWY Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Cost of food....enviromental damage?
If food costs go up...what have we gained?

More ground water pollution?


"The October issue of Consumers Reports reported on E85, calling, call it "The Ethanol Myth". They tested a 2007 Chevy Tahoe using E85 versus standard gasoline and the results were to say the least disappointing.

The Tahoe achieved 27 percent lower gas mileage using the E85.

The E85 mileage results were as follows; city 7 mpg, highway 15 mpg, 150 mile trip 13mpg and overall 10 mpg.

The gasoline results; city 9mpg; highway 21mpg , 150 mile trip 18 mpg and 14 mpg overall.

A good reason for this drop in mileage, E85 has a BTU rating of 75, 670 versus 115,400 per gallon of gas a 34 percent lower energy output than gasoline.

The Chevy Tahoe had slightly better acceleration figures on the E85, one tenth of a second better times from 0-30, 45 to 65 mph and quarter mile runs.

The emissions on the Tahoe were the same in the Carbon Monoxide and Hydrocarbons 1ppm and 0 ppm respectively. The Nitrogen Oxide Levels dropped from 9 ppm on gas to 1ppm on E85.

According to Consumer Reports there is no financial incentive for the consumer to buy one of the new FFVs- Fuel Flexible Vehicles. It has been reported that the makes of gasoline have reached a deal with the makers of E85 to price it so that it provides no financial advantage over gas.

If you are interested in this article pickup a copy of the October issue of Consumer Reports or go to your local library and review the article."


So if you use E85 at the same price of gas...you really pay around 27% more to go the same distance.

You pay more for food?

Farmers and the distillers win...you lose?


Might be less farm subsidy payments?


Potential mpg gain from using small amounts of acetone (does not work well with 5-10% ethonal?):

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Acetone_as_a_Fuel_Additive


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Parisle Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. Pretty Much All Correct,....
---- It is conceiveable that the process of making ethanol could be made somewhat more efficient, but that is not the solution to the problem. America is just going to have to recognize that electricity is all we're going to have for residential use some day,... hydro-electric, wind and solar generation being the chief sources. It is much less a matter of somehow equalling our current level of energy consumption with another fuel, than it is of a massive re-thinking and reorientation of how we USE energy. Heating houses with fossil fuels, for example, will be the first thing to go, and passive technologies will have to replace it. The times are changing.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The $300 bil we spent in Iraq could have
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 08:45 AM by leveymg
paid for the installation of passive solar water heat and either wind or solar panel electric generation on half the houses in America.

Instead, it went to Halliburton, Lockheed, and CACI.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Don't forget nuclear power
Though it is not without issues, it is currently attractive due to its lack of carbon emissions.

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's about the only thing that's attractive about it.
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Parisle Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. "Not without issues?"
---- That is a mighty reserved way of describing 100 million tons of highly radioactive garbage which nobody wants sitting around in their state, and which poses security risks on top of its environmental hazards. Besides, uranium will run out some day, too.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. All power sources are transient...remember whale oil?
Nuclear has significant advantages for now. Waste is clearly an issue, but its a trade vs carbon polutants. We can not meet anywhere near the current energy demand, espcially in urban areas with solar/wind/thermal alone. All sources have a place in the mix as does technolgy research for the future.

Do you have a figure for your assertion that nuclear powerplant waste at 100 millions tons or will be in the near future?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Don't try to argue with anti-nuclear nuts.
You'll only hurt you head from banging it on the wall.
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4bucksagallon Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
20. Anybody here heard of wood gas?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas

Seems that during WW2 it was in wide use in Europe.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. Petroleum is the largest scam in our nation's history. n/t
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. I believe the figures are much better if sugar beats rather than corn are
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 03:17 PM by Vidar
used.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. My biggest problem with it is the fact that...
they use "High Energy" crops to supply it. Acres of arable land is used so that we can have fuel, this isn't sustainable at all, and the amount of energy needed to grow corn is intense, so we really don't get a net energy gain from ethanol.

Perferably, I would like us to use more economical sources of fuel, hempseed oil and algae. Part of the reason is that Hemp can be grown literally anywhere, within fields of consumable crops, in ditches, etc., algae can be grown in ponds, and can also double in usage as a way to do waste disposal and natural fertilizer production. Hemp also enriches a soil's nitrogen content, it fixes it, which is also another plus.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Very reasonable & even better. Have to get past the idiotic
hemp=pot=reefer madness bunch though.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
28. The MN Taxpayer's League are Libertarian loonies
Of course they are going to be against subsidizing alternative fuels.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. gas costs 63 cents to produce???
so it's selling for under a dollar a gallon then? Ethanol is not a scam. It's not completely ready for prime time yet. It needs to be researched to be more efficient. The airplane was not a commercial success the moment it was invented in 1903 either so just be a little patient. There is alot of promising research that is making ethanol more efficient. Engines are being produced that use it more efficiently. If you wanted to say that "corn ethanol" is a scam, you might have a better point, but I am hopeful further research will make it competative with sugar cane and anything else.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. Locking
The O.P. is no longer among us.
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