Seriously, Folks. Has Anyone Thought About "Plan B?"

[Parisle]

---- There is no lack here for comprehensive and detailed reporting and analysis of every single creepy or despicable act committed by Bush, the neocons, or the GOP in general. And there seems to be a fairly reliable concensus that the democrats will, in fact, at least take control of the House of Representatives in November, and that the neocons' demise will proceed steadily from that point. We all hope for that.

---- But what if it does not happen? Suppose the republicans keep both the House and Senate under marginal control? And suppose further that, in the backwash of this unhappy development, Bush gets his domestic spying approval, his prison and torture approval,.. and even starts making some dangerous moves in the direction of Iran? What then? Patriot Act IV?

---- I have read plenty of dire warnings about the threat of Diebold vote fraud, but I don't recall any recommendations about how to deal with it after the fact.

---- I've seen ample coverage of Bush-PNAC ambitions of dictatorship,.. but I haven't read any thoughtful analyses of how to confront it when it takes its next jackbooted step.

---- And generally, there is plenty of comment on who is behind what's happening to this country,.. why they're doing it... and what's in for them. But frankly, you have to go over to the "Gun Forum" to find any kind of initiative directed at the proverbial "worst case scenario," and those do not make for encouraging reading.

---- "Now is the time," as Paine wrote. Coming up with worst case contingency plans AFTER the fact may not be quite as convenient. We have condemnations and revulsion aplenty. But who was the first guy who said, "Hey, I've got an idea,.. let's go meet the bastards at Concord?"

---- Anyone know what "Nullification resolutions" are? Would any democratic governors declare a statewide emergency and call out the National Guard in the event that a congressional election takes one of those highly improbable 10-point electronic swings toward the GOP? Got a crack legal team waiting in the wings? Prepared to issue arrest warrents for complicit neocons in a given state? What about money? Got cash? Having any little meetings amongst yourselves?

---- I worry that the mountains of optimistic, often self-congratulatory and usually "whistling past the graveyard" information traded around here could be rendered effectively "beside the point" on a Wednesday morning about 50 days from now. And I know I will get flamed for this, but I do not mean it in any depreciative sense, because I feel much the same way as you. I don't want to have to face that day, either. But the Boy Scout Motto says, "Be Prepared."

---- We've got 50 days. Enjoy those polls, and do everything in your power to make them become manifest. But don't overlook the possibility that it might not happen,.. because if the democrats do not throw an electoral roadblock in front of Bush 50 days from now, then things are probably going to get nasty. What do you do then?

[MrCoffee]

1. What the Declaration of Independence tells me to. n/t

[FogerRox]

3. What the Declaration of Independence tells me to

Yup, All good Patriots will have to make a desision. I am always up for a trip to the mall in DC. Mr Coffee, wanna join me? I have a lot of friends.

Go here:

http://www.newsfocus.org/mustsee.htm

See what vets did in 1932. See the plot to overthrow FDR, see the Nazis, I mean neo cons at work.

[MrCoffee]

7. Sign me up, and save me a seat on the bus.

[Kagemusha]

2. Plan B means suffering and trying to elect Democrats in '08.

I don't think I can make it any simpler than that.

[FogerRox]

4. 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, and you will wait for 2008?

I'll have to crosss that bridge when I get to it, after the election.

[RC]

13. And when they start holding one party elections?

Oops, this question was meant for Kagemusha

[Kagemusha]

14. Cross that bridge when you get to it

If the public supports Democrats, that's better than the alternative, no matter what a foolish Republican administration might try to pull. So there's no excuse for laziness, in that sense.

[enough already]

34. There is no more waiting

We have to take to the streets.

[ima_sinnic]

5. I have had everything ready for "Plan B" for several years now:

torch -- check
pitchfork -- check
bucket of tar -- check
feathers -- check

getting REAL TIRED of waiting to use them! c'mon, LET'S ROLL!

[FogerRox]

19. Pm me when its time, or I'll PM you

[Sam Odom]

6. 50/50 chance of taking the House back

I see very little if any chance of winning the senate.

This is of course if nothing 'Big' happens between now and the election.

[Parisle]

11. I pretty much agree with you, Sam,...

---- And "50-50" is what? A coin toss, right? Somewhat less than the degree of certainty fueling much of the commentary on this board. I can only expect that marginally holding on to both chambers of congess will send the signal to the neocons that, if they want to finish the gameplan they've started, then they will have to work fast. I also expect that Florida- and Ohio-style election discrepencies will be present again, perhaps in several states this time. Rightwingers are seldom reluctant to push harder and over-reach,... just to see what they can get out of it. That is what will happen.

[Realityhack]

25. I guess one question is...

Is this even the year that counts the most?
Not saying it doesn't count because it does, but if we don't have an actual majority at the end of the day... is that the end of the world?
IMO 08 is going to determine a lot. At that point we will see if the american people elect a Bush clone, or go in a diffrent direction.

BTW. Does anyone have a good site to see what the contested races are and get overview information in one place?

[FogerRox]

30. rassmussen reports (polling)

WE are lookin at a "D" 49 - "R" 51 senate about now, with about 30 to 40 vulnerable "R" seats and no vulnerable "D" seats in the House.

try mydd

[Hippo_Tron]

8. As a general rule, not much gets done in the last 2 years of a presidency

Even if we don't take back the Senate or the House, we will still be able to stall the neocon agenda by picking up seats. It's much easier to get things done when you have a 55 seat majority than a 51 seat majority. Also, I think that we are going to be electing some new blood to the US Senate this November and among our new potential senators, it looks like some of them will have real courage. Some names that come to mind in particular include Sherrod Brown, Ned Lamont, Jon Tester, and several others as well. I think that even if we don't get a majority, this new group of progressive minded courageous senators will do wonders for the morale of our caucus and help us resist any serious damage that Bush might try to do in the final years.

[Catchawave]

9. Which Plan B ?

If we don't take back our country? Er, the House and Senate this November?

I've thought of that, and it will be a mandate for Bush and his ilk to keep on keeping on with his quest for world domination :cry:

Here in Virginia, we have incumbent Bushbots sucking up millions of dollars in negative ad campaigns against Democrat challengers. Here in Virginia, that means playing to the stupids. Sound bytes here and there during football, baseball playoffs and Nascar....of course, nothing about the issues that affect Virginians, just whipping on pansy-assed Democrats. I'm sure other states are feeling the assault too?

Heaven help us all :cry:

[kimmerspixelated]

10. Really it makes me sick

to even imagine the worst case scenario. It will be hard to have any confidence in our future on planet Earth, let alone America if the bad guys win AGAIN!

[Catchawave]

12. I hear ya....but

I just want to have more of our good guys on the playground come November elections!

[Parisle]

15. Worst case scenario is already a famous saying,....

---- It goes like this: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." I believe that prescription would be covered by "suffering and waiting for 2008," as an earlier poster suggested. The purpose of the original thread was to ask at what point do the enlightened and constitutionally-justified opponents of this administration draw a line in the sand? I am now more worried than ever.

[jokerman93]

28. If that point of decision is approaching

If that point of decision is approaching, and a line must be drawn as is our right, then the question is: What line must be drawn and how will we "draw" it? That's really two questions isn't it? Abstractions are fine in principle but they won't get anyone into the street or networked for deliberate action on a national scale. We have the most powerful communication technology in history at our fingertips. How do we use this power in imaginative new ways? Surely there are geniuses somewhere out there - innovators who could apply themselves to coming up with a scenario for a significant massing of focused resistance. Surely...

J

[windbreeze]

22. I was always told that

The Lord helps them, who help themselves...and I think it's about time, we stop sitting on our thumbs...and waiting for someone else to do it for us...
wb....

[ChipsAhoy]

16. You won't get flamed by me.

I happen to share your concern. After being let down SO BITTERLY in 2000 and 2004, I just cannot get my hopes up again. I think reality tells us that we are stuck with this bad situation until 2008. And I'm not really sure what will change after that.

We MUST face reality head on. Wishing never got anything done.

"Be prepared" indeed!! And what exactly IS Plan B?

thanks!

[kineneb]

17. maybe the folks in that other forum are right

the Gun forum, I mean.

Plan B just may have to include something like the oft advised Earthquake/disaster Kit- water, food, paperwork, clothing, first aid stuff, extra ammo and bore cleaning oil.

Perhaps a miliatry coup d'etat?
Some of the Brass are getting a bit testy over the lack of support from the Admin.
"Go here, go there. Kill the 'terrists."
The Brass ask, "With what?"

I just don't know. But after reading John Dean's new book, I am less than hopefull. This Admin. has no conscience; they will do whatever they please to achieve their ends, and to hell with all of the citizens.

[Parisle]

18. First of all,,, Thanks, Chips,.... And I hear ya, kineneb

----The "survivalist" type stuff from the gun forum is truly last resort, every-man-for-himself-type stuff for when society hits the level of a Road Warrior flick,... but I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I've got all that stuff and more ready to go. Here's the problem:
"This Admin. has no conscience; they will do whatever they please to achieve their ends, and to hell with all of the citizens." The Bush administration came into office without the slightest interest in lawful, Constitutional government. In their own minds, they were a dictatorship from Day 1. Stopping them is probably not something the democratic party can do from the vantage point of its conventional party routine, although "democrats" are significantly indicated in preventing full neocon ascendency. (That is a polite way of saying getting them out of government and into prison) I have some ideas, but I would prefer to post them in a separate thread, rather than have them buried in this one. But this much is very likely: the neocons are not going to give up power as a result of conventional political activity. They did not come this far just to bow to inconvenient little things like law or popular will. They will have to be roadblocked, stymied, outwitted and forcibly removed from office, and then prosecuted. And it will not be done at the national level, for that would depend too much on the democratic party. It will be done in a very few states,.. probably no more than three. Politics is going to get local once again.

[ChipsAhoy]

20. You're welcome and

I look forward to your ideas on Plan B. As you said, on another thread.

[Parisle]

21. I'm workin' on it,......

---- ...There's a good bit of research involved, if a real "plan," (and not a lot of rhetorical generalities) is to be set forth. Look for a "gameplan" thread,... and bear in mind that this IS a worst-case scenario prescription (or antidote),.. devised for the eventuality of discovering that the PNAC neocons are every bit as bad as we presently speculate,.. and that the normal, fair and honest functioning of the electoral system is no longer a viable option for unseating them. Calls for some extraordinary chess moves, eh?

---- And thanks, again.

[ChipsAhoy]

42. Any time!

I appreciate respectful deep thinkers like yourself.

I look foward to anything you have to post on the subject.

:)

[Greyhound]

23. Nation-wide general strike?

Just shut the motherfucker down. Think the sheep would go along?

How about if millions of us just drop off the grid, this would be tough on folks as most of them are pretty thoroughly enslaved at this point, but it would be effective if a significant percentage simply refused to support the corrupt system, IMO. :shrug:

Edit: Especially those of us at the bottom, imagine the outcry if the rulers directed their buffers to do the shit jobs. :D

[AntiFascist]

24. This is the best plan, even if a small number of people strike...

if its the right people.

[Parisle]

32. Some variations on strikes, boycotts,...

---- Targetting this sort of thing isn't easy, but I'm sure some advantageous angles can be found. I'd like to see folks cease all use of credit cards, boycott republican-owned businesses locally and generally get a little more organized at the local level.

[Auntie Bush]

38. How about no one paying their taxes?

How could they pay for their military industrial complex?
How could they run the government?
How could their corporate friends get richer?

How could they imprison millions of people for not paying their taxes?
Besides they wouldn't have enough lawyers to take them to court.

I could really see this working.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

26. Vancouver or Perth

Until the dusts settles.

[Realityhack]

27. Perth is realy nice.

Ever go to that resturaunt over the cannal where the fish like to eat the ketchup but not the fries?

[mmonk]

29. I skip to plan C.

[Kablooie]

31. One word ...

anthrax.

[Bridget Burke]

33. You lost me with the "Guns".....

Sounds like a case of testosterone poisoning to me.

[Voltaire]

35. Jefferson already gave us Plan B

So when do we go? All these polls with Dems ahead are a setup so that when the GOP steals it the press can regale them with their miracle finish. Already the big lead is growing ever closer....setup.

I'm ready for Plan B regardless. The Jefferson Way. Or the French way of 1789.

[Parisle]

36. I worry about the "set-up," too,...particularly with a complicit media

---- Oh, I believe the favorable polls,.. but I also believe in technology, ie, voting machine manipulation,.. and the republicans' history of dirty tricks is, effectively, a history of trying to manipulate elections,... from Watergate,.. to the theft of Carter's campaign playbook,.. to Matricardi's phone-bugging of the Virginia Democrats,.. to republican election-day phone-jamming of democratic headquarters,.. to DeLay's obscene gerrymandering,... to Florida and Ohio. The republicans fear nothing so much as an election with a level playing field. My feeling is that if the Diebold "fix" is technologically feasible, then it has probably been done. And we know the voter-rolls have been purged in states controlled by republicans. All we need is evidence of machine-tampering.

---- No sensible American, regardless of how patriotic and brave, really wants to have to take to the streets and the countryside in order to prevent this nation from falling into the hands of the next generation of nazis,.. though it is inspiring to know that many are prepared to do exactly that. It would be interesting to see a poll of that very question,... and even more interesting to see the results published

[shimmergal]

40. Manipulation goes back further than Watergate.

I remember back in 1968, the local repubs in our little Indiana college town tried to stop the students from voting. Tried to scare them with "You may be committing a felony" and similar malarkey--this just after a court ruling had come down that college students COULD vote where they lived while attending school. Wow--Republican electoral tricks are almost 40 years in the making!

[BlueIris]

37. I've thought about it. ... I'm still thinking. It's what I basically

did for '04 and I...am still putting my life back together as a result. Was it worth it, because I thought the alternative (ie; more non-efficient 'action' to stop Bush re-selection, which I was sure would be the end of the world) was worse? Hell, yes. Could I do it again? ...egh. But I already tore my life apart for democracy--leave me alone!!

Sure. I'll just have to make sure I'm up on my tetanus shots first, I think.

[kentuck]

39. We hit the streets.

The Democratic party will be with us or they will be with them ...would be my guess..

[loudsue]

41. Even if the Democrats DID win, they wouldn't aggressively change

things. They'd be all nicey-nicey and try to show how magnanimous they are by trying to "reach across the aisle" and .... well, you know: they'd do the same ole shit. They would NOT bring impeachment articles against the members of the administration and judicial branches that need to be brought. Gonzales and the bush administration have broken every manner of law in this country, and should be impeached, found guilty, and serve hard time for their crimes.

It might help to stall some of the legislation that has been coming down the pike, but the Dems would NOT make it a priority of getting our electoral process cleaned up so that we NEVER AGAIN have any more stolen elections. If the republicans can steal something, they will. Whether it's money, elections, or power, they'll steal it.

But, the fix IS already in for this next election. You can tell by the way the media and their reports on the polls is making all the races "so close". We may gain a few seats, but if we gain too many, we will have a redux of Rove in the situation room the night of the election in 2004.... the whole thing will turn around at 1:00 a.m. and the losers will become winners in enough districts to keep the republicans in power.

I have NO hope for this election, because not enough has been done since 2000 to secure our votes. Until THAT issue is settled, we will NOT be able to turn this country around without a (very bloody) revolution. And there aren't enough well-informed people to pull off a revolution at this point.

The corporations that run the nation are NOT going to give up their power. They will continue to keep their republican (and some DLC democrats) lap dogs in line, and in office, no matter what the people want.



:kick::kick::kick: