Kerry supporters only: Why should Dean supporters get behind Kerry

[stickdog]

if Kerry won't even offer Dean the VP slot?

Think about this for a minute. We are dedicated. We are organized. We contribute a hell of a lot of money. We desperately want our country back. We want a candidate who is beholden to regular people rather than to bigwigs. We want to take on Bush with a full frontal assault and give him no quarter on any of his neverending lies.

Do these factors make us undesireable as allies? Is it really more important to crush all the hope from the Dean insurgency than it is to harness its energy?

We hate everything Bush with a passion, and the main reasons we don't like Kerry are:

1) he still tries to finesse the bs Iraq War,

2) he's propped up Bush in order to attack Dean, and

3) he's too tied in with the corrupt and powerful global elite that we're trying to restrain.

However, I must admit that Kerry/Dean ticket would at least have a chance at getting the old school and the new school to join forces against the Great Satan.

So how about it, Kerry supporters? Would you give a little to get a lot?

[connecticut yankee]

1. To get Bush out of the White House

This and this alone should be enough of a reason.

[hope42mro]

3. In your opinion, why is Kerry the only one who can do that? n't

[stickdog]

11. He isn't. I just think his supporters would be the most up-in-arms over

the idea, and I wanted to test the hypothesis.

[D G]

14. Did you read the "Kerry/Dean ticket promoted on Crossfire" thread?

From what I saw, it was Dean supporters most up in arms about the possibility.

Edited to add link.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=282953&mesg_id=282953&page=

[bigtree]

47. It would be awesome

I can't speak for the personalities though. They could conflict. They have to be able to work together. Sen. Edwards for example has called John Kerry his 'good friend'. Sounds compatible. We'll see.

[mzmolly]

35. Replace Bush with Bush lite? Not enough inspiration for many...

sorry.............

[Dookus]

38. agreed...

we don't want a pro-corporate candidate with a weak record on the environment, sealed records and a pro-NRA record. That's why I'll be happy enough with Kerry.

[blm]

2. I don't agree with any of your 3 points.

I don't want Dean around because he's TOO far right no matter how he pretends to be a populist now.

Dean's too much of a corporatist who couldn't even get the Sierra Club endorsement in any of his races in Vermont.

I doubt the Fire Fighters and the environmental groups want Dean for VP and Kerry will NOT betray their trust.

[stickdog]

9. That's such a joke. Dean's already endorsed by large number of

leading environmentalists.

And of course you don't agree with any of the three points. They are why DEAN SUPPORTERS don't like Kerry and you are anything but.

[blm]

21. They thought he might be the nominee, not because he they believed him to

be the best environmentalist.

If you are a Democrat who can't get a Sierra club endorsement for any of your races, then you're doing something wrong.

Did Gore get him those endorsements?

[quaker bill]

34. As an environmental scientist and a professional

I find the Sierra Club generally unimpressive. They have a few articulate and informed activists there but for the larger part they seem to be caucasian eco-puritans much afflicted by the NIMBY syndrome.

As a professional wetlands ecologist engaged in environmental law enforcement, I would not seek their endorsement. Further I would hold the judgement of those who obtain their endorsement rather suspect.

[mzmolly]

36. AKA ... Touche'

;)

:toast:

[blm]

40. I held them up as one of the weaker groups and he couldn't even get that.

Now, would you like to claim that environmentalists endorsed Dean for any reason other than they thought he'd be the nominee?

[ozone_man]

51. Here are some environmentalists for Dean.

Sierra club is sort of middle of the road as environmentalists. These guys are pretty qualified environmentalists.

---------------------------------------------------------

by Bruce Babbitt, Paul Hawken, Bill McKibben, and Terry Tempest Williams

15 Jan 2004
We've spent much of our lives working for environmental change -- for a response to global warming, for the preservation of biodiversity, for wild places, for family farms. But this winter, we're working for Howard Dean for president -- backing him in the confident hope that his victory will mean that the deep environmental principles of the American people will finally prevail over the narrow special interests that for too long have dominated our country.
<snip>
It's not just that Dean did good things for the environment while he was governor of Vermont -- protecting undeveloped land, spurring energy conservation. It's that when Howard Dean decided to run for president, he also decided to place his full trust in the American people. We want to return that trust in full, and play our part in this emerging experiment in democracy.

http://gristmagazine.com/soapbox/babbitt011504.asp

[blm]

64. They thought he'd be the nominee at the time.

There is no way a staunch environmentalist would choose Dean's environmental record over other candidates' LONGHELD environmental records and policy positions.

[isbister]

59. I don't agree with any of your 3 points either n/t

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

5. I think your question and it's whole premise is insulting

and you should do whatever the hell you want to do. This election is bigger than Dean. The world does not revolve around Dean.

This election is about selecting a Democratic nominee and replacing Bush. NOT about appeasing Dean supporters.

Furthermore, it is not up to Kerry SUPPORTERS to choose a VP!! That decision is up to the Democratic nominee! If that happens to be Kerry, I SINCERELY DOUBT that choice is going to be Dean. He's not dumb enough to ruin his ticket that way.

YOU have to decide for yourself whether you are a Democrat, whether you want to sit the election out, join the Greens, or vote for Bush. I really don't care.

Work it out for yourself.

[stickdog]

15. Yes! Almost a 100% consensus to crush us dead!

How dare we tout our own importance when the media and the DLC have already proven just how puny we are!

[D G]

18. How is "Do what you want to do" equivalent to "crush us dead"?

Were you really looking for guidance from Kerry supporters here? I think if any Kerry supporters told you to support Kerry, you'd complain about being told what to do.

[stickdog]

25. The only thing I was looking for

was the confirmation y'all have given me.

Thanks.

[D G]

29. You're welcome

The only thing I was looking for in this thread is entertainment, and I'm certainly leaving satisfied.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

31. I said nothing of the kind

You came looking for hand holding and for Kerry supporters to make a decision for Kerry that we cannot make to change the terms of this election to revolve around a losing candidate to appease a few of his supporters who cannot accept the fact that he has failed.

I said do what you want and work it out for yourself.

I don't begrudge you your passion for Dean. But I am a Democrat, and that's not negotiable. If the situation were reversed, and there WAS the "illusion" for most of the past year that Dean was going to walk away with the nomination instead of MY preferred candidate, I would not dream of playing emotional blackmail with my vote or with other supporters.

My vote is and was always going to be for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it was. I've been a Democrat long enough to know where I stand.

[mitchum]

33. It was neither the media nor DLC...

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

41. To address the other factors in your post

We are dedicated
We are organized
We contribute money
We want a candidate who stands for regular people

This describes Kerry supporters as well. You will find all of this in the Kerry camp.

We want to take on Bush with a full frontal assault and give him no quarter on any of his never ending lies.

I'm not sure what you're asking for here, but I doubt you are going to get the "full frontal assault", that would satisfy you. The angry attack rhetoric doesn't play well. Voters don't like it. I'd rather see Kerry act like a statesman than an attack dog.

Yes, I do think Dean supporters are desirable allies. No, I don't think anyone wants to crush the hope out of anyone. I don't. I also think Sharpton, Gephardt, Mosley-Braun, Graham, Kucinich, and Lieberman supporters are desirable allies. They have also had to come to terms with their candidates losses.

I just don't think it's appropriate to try to emotionally blackmail supporters of the front runner to beg the apparent losers supporters to stay Democrats.

You either are a Democrat or you are not.

You either support the notion that the most fascist and dangerous administration in American history has to be stopped in it's tracks or you don't.

I can't convince you. Like I said, you have to decide.

[poskonig]

6. As a former Dean supporter myself,

I can think of several reasons for Dean supporters to get behind Kerry. Kerry is a dedicated liberal. Kerry has credibility with war veterans which will help in many regions in the country. Kerry is very professional and rarely makes mistakes on the campaign trail. Kerry is pounding Bush in the polls. Kerry looks and feels like a president, while other candidates come off as activists. Kerry is appealing to moderate voters and is actually getting them on the Democratic side.

What more would one want?

[stickdog]

16. Somebody we can trust to stand up for the truth. (nt)

[NNN0LHI]

19. "What more would one want?" Could I have an egg in my beer please?

Some people like me are never satisfied.:-)

Don

[mzmolly]

37. Oh, I dunno.... integrity?

:P

[cid]

42. Someone with a backbone maybe? That lets out darn near every

current senator including kerry and Edwards.

[mitchum]

7. Maybe because so many of you have heaped scorn on Kerry...

and Dean really brings NOTHING to the ticket?

[poskonig]

8. Some claim Dean brings oceans of new people in.

However, that argument has been falsified in all nine primaries.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

10. And I assume they are all Democrats?

Logic 101

Every Democratic Primary in history has had more than one candidate. Eventually it boils down to one winner. Those people then unite behind the winner in the general election to oppose the Republican candidate.

This is what the majority of the American Democratic voting population will do, with the help of a few Independants and turncoat Republicans. A small minority of angry Dean supporters notwithstanding.

[stickdog]

12. So crushing us it is!

Thanks!

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

20. Who said anything about crushing you?

Nobody said anything like that.

The facts of life are that the losers in the primaries don't get to set the terms of the game. Do you understand that? Doesn't that sound resonable to you? The winners get to decide who their VP's will be, not the supporters of the losers. Get it?

This thread is really a ridiculous premise anyway. Kerry supporters have no say with Kerry on who he will select as his VP. I'm sure that is a decision that will be well vetted and kept close to the vest.

[blm]

23. Hyperbole is not necessary.

Maybe that is mistake numero uno for the Dean camp?

[stickdog]

13. Crushing us is up big! (nt)

[mitchum]

24. Y'know, I could fucking care less

I don't speak for all Kerry supporters, only myself.

[JNelson6563]

17. Stickdog, read my sig line

That was from a Kerry supporter to me, a Dean supporter. Funny how it might kinda fly back at 'em. I look forward to spoon-feeding it (their horrid statement) back to them. ;-)

Dean and Kerry will never be on the same ticket. Regardless of any of the facts about either of these two men, they are both from the same region of the country.

Toss in the fact they can't stand each other and the supporters fo both men is bery similar toward each other (phoney pleas for unity aside) it just ain't gonna happen. Ever.

For either Kerry of Dean the VP choice would have to come from the south or the south-west.

Julie

[CalProf]

48. "Them?" So you received this statement from thousands of Kerry people?

Or just one? Or maybe two?

If y'all want to be wounded, nobody can stop you. But any Kerry supporter can muster up similar nastiness from a few Dean supporters.

I, for example, have been called a sheep, a brainwashed media consumer, and an old person unable to do research for myself and so in need of education. (Perhaps I should alert the university that gave me my PhD that they messed up.)

Do I think Dean is responsible for that? No. Do I think the vast majority of Dean supporters think that way? No. Should I hold him or his supporters responsible for the nastiness of a few? No.

You of course will do what you will. But spreading more bile among Democrats because some hotheads on DU got out of hand is, in the end, only abetting the enemy.

[JNelson6563]

60. Nonsense

If you got such messages from anyone here it had to be via PM. Such a post would have been deleted.

Of course that is how cowards work, whisper nasty little thing when they think nobody is looking. I'd wager money you never got such a nasty PM message from a supporter of any candidate.

And yes, we Dean supporters have borne the brunt of the full frontal attacks. Take the insults and apply them daily times 10. That was a typical day of a Dean supporter here at DU for a while there. Many of us even set up our own forum so we could have rational discussion without attacks.

You certainly received no such attacks from me and I do not condone them to or from anyone.

If you doubt my claims as to the nastiness do a search. You'll see for yourself.

And of course, there' always my sig-line for reference. ;-)

Julie

[Uzybone]

22. Dean as VP is a negative to any dem

he brings nothing regionally.
He has little support from people who actually go to the polls.
He is apt to shoot off his mouth and make false statements some of which he has had to step away from later.
He is a centrist.
He has sowed too much bad blood amongst democrats that its hard to see anyone campaign enthusiastically for him. A uniter not a divider in the Bush sense of unity.

I have nothing against the man personally but I know he would have been a disaster if we had nominated him and I'm glad he is seemingly out of running. I just hope he hasn't poisoned enough minds in his camp so much that they help Bush win by omission.


BTW : How has Kerry propped up Bush in order to attach Dean.

PS...if by some miracle Dean wins the nomination I shall support him 100% in every way I can.

[stickdog]

27. "It's wholly irresponsible for anyone to even IMPLY that Saddam's

capture hasn't made our nation MUCH safer!"

Remember that one? Or did the tune change too quickly?

[Uzybone]

39. Better to "prop up Bush"

by saying its a good thing to capture a murderous dictator than prop up Bush by handing him a sacrificial lamb in the fall on the form of Dr Dean.

[stickdog]

44. False dichotomy, even if Dean wasn't the more electable choice by far.

http://www.trialvis.com/whobeatsbush/whobeatsbush.pdf

[Dookus]

26. aww...

If Dean doesn't get the VP slot you'll go home? So what? A few weeks ago people were saying if Dean didn't get the top slot they'd go elsewhere. Soon, they'll be saying that if Dean doesn't get a cabinet position they'll stay home in November. By June they'll be saying if Dean doesn't get to speak at the convention they'll stay home. By November they'll be saying... well... nothing much.

Dean as VP would lose more voters than he'd bring. The overwhelming majority of Dean's supporters will vote for the Dem candidate. You think a handful of zealots can extort the vice presidency? I don't. Dean adds nothing to a Kerry ticket - in fact he hurts it.

[stickdog]

30. Have you been to any Dean meetups lately?

Core support is still there. We started out extremely disillusioned with our Democratic, and now our worst fears about it are being confirmed right before our eyes.

Maybe you should reexamine the 2000 results before writing off a block of motivated activists so blithely.

Unless, of course, Kerry has the keys to the media and/or the voting machines.

[Dookus]

32. You make the mistake of assuming

that all Dean supporters are zealots. They are not.

And EVERY candidate has motivated activists - Dean has no monopoly on that. And given the success rate of his activists, I don't think it would be a big deal to lose a few of 'em.

[stickdog]

46. Considering what he was up against, Dean was REMARKABLY

successful. Do you realize that Dean is STILL outraising Kerry, Clark and Edwards on the internet?

You do realize that Dean smashed all Democratic hard money records using less than $100 average contributions, right? So just what do you gain by belittling the REAL, tangible efforts of tens of thousands of enegerized American citizens?

Considering what happened in 2000, we can't even afford to be blithe about losing Kucinich supporters.

[Dookus]

56. I'm talking about the only success that matters...

getting votes. What good is 30 million dollars spent if you don't get the votes?

You seem to want to be begged to vote for the Democrat. I'm not gonna do it - I don't care who you vote for. I know you represent a very very small number of people.

[stickdog]

62. This thread was a question for Kerry supporters.

Are you now a Kerry supporter?

[Casablanca]

70. Still waiting for a reasoned answer to come from a Kerry supporter.

Come on Kerry supporters, everyone wants to vote for the front runner, it's just that some of us won't check our brains at the door to do so.

To repeat - why is Kerry fully qualified to go against Bush in the general election? *Not - why is Dean worse than Kerry?* And don't mention any of the reasons that have already been refuted ...

1. War hero status. Not enough. If it was, you'd be voting for Clark.

2. Liberal "left of Kennedy" voting record. And this will win the moderate, fiscal conservative, anti-Bush vote HOW?

3. He's won primaries. Core Dems vote in primaries, not fiscal conservatives pissed off at Bush, not moderates itching to bounce him out of the Oval Office. Core Dems _don't_ _win_ _general_ _elections_! They never have, there's not enough of them.

4. He's got media momentum. Since it's provided by the corporate media that has been protecting Bush the last 4 years, that would be a better reason _not_ to vote for him.

5. He "feels more presidential". Can you see that this "feeling" has more to do with your response to media presentation (and you) than the candidate? For any of the Dem candidates.

There are several Dean supporters who would love to hear an original, reasoned argument that doesn't repeat the above mantras. Do you have that kind of argument?

[XanaDUer]

28. Vote for whomever you want...or don't vote

I don't really care at this point.

You ask for reasons, then go ballistic with hyperbole and accuse posters of saying things they did not say.

Whatever.

[ibegurpard]

43. I don't want Dean on a ticket with Kerry.

It wouldn't make me think better of a Kerry ticket...It would make me think worse of Dean.

[Eloriel]

45. This is a very disappointing post from you, stickdog

Very.

Edited to add:

1. Dean is far from done. And it's disappointing in the extreme to see you suggest otherwise.

2. If Dean were to accept such a proposal, I for one would be "outtahere" re Dean. And I was just visiting the blog and there's a lot of very, very similar anti-Kerry sentiment out there.

3. A good many of us would NOT work or donate for a Kerry/Dean ticket -- at all. In fact, despite how strongly I feel about Dean, Kerry would NOT get my vote just because he had the man he savaged with dirty tricks and dirty politics on the ticket. And, as I said, it would be shame, shame on Howard if he were to accept such a monstrous proposal from a man who represents absolutely EVERYTHING we're fighting against. I know I'm not alone there either.

Very disappointing post.

[CalProf]

49. If Kerry represents everything you're fighting against...

then all I have to say is...

have fun working for the Bush Cheney ticket, because Kerry represents everything they're fighting against.

[ozone_man]

52. We're looking for real change

not the other side of the same coin. TPTB have everyone convinced that we always have to flip the same coin. People see Kerry on the other side and think they have change, but it really isn't. After all, didn't Kerry vote for the war that we are mired in for years into the future? Or the Patriot Act that took rights away that we have had for 200 years? With change like that we would be better with Bush, since there would be a hope that people would finally demand real change.

I think it's time for real change.

[belle]

68. Uh, yes, BUT:

if Bush ends up in the White House for another four years, none of this means crap, because they will proceed to put a lock on the reins of power the likes of which we as yet have only tasted. And then the real fun starts. I would *prefer* for dynamic change in leadership, but even a four-year respite under a fairly conservative (by which i mean style, p.s.; Kerry's actually more liberal than Dean in some regards. Edwards i don't know enough about yet, but i already know he's a lot better than, say, Lieberman on many of the important issues) Dem leader will have to do if that's what it comes to. Slow but steady really does often win the race. The important thing no matter who wins is to keep focused on the longterm. That's what the Republicans have been doing , at least in terms of keeping themselves in power, which is all they've ever really cared about--and what do you know, it's worked.

[belle]

67. I am still a Dean supporter. Donated to his campaign today. That said...

if Kerry ends up winning, you'd better believe I'm getting behind him. Same for Edwards or Clark, or Wallace and Gromit if they end up cruising in and stealing the primary at the last minute. I'm sure Dean will too; he's not stupid, he lives here too, not in Cloudcuckooland. Hello, remember, Bush in White House? Ashcroft? Patriot Act, whose sunset provisions will surely cause it to expire *unless* Bush stays in the White House? Supreme Court?? People who say you're not gonna support Kerry (or whoever)--are we even in the same country here?

[Guaranteed]

55. Yeah but look at this:

Best post ever: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=285074#285234

[aldian159]

50. In a heartbeat.

Dr. Dean is fun to watch, and he gave my candidate (and others) a spine and the guts to attack the Bush junta.

Here's a football analogy: Howard Dean is the blocking back. He doesn't carry the ball, he just lays out the first tackler to protect the guy with the ball, the eventual candidate.

Edit to throw in football analogy as I was watching classic FSU mid-1990s football-I'm not at FSU, but I love their football.

[OneBlueSky]

53. offering Dean the VP spot guarantees a sure loss in November . . .

a ticket composed of two New England liberals (one for real, one perceived) will never win . . . as for why Dean supporters should get behind Kerry, four words: Chief Justice Antonin Scalia . . . or, if you prefer, Associate Justice John Ashcroft . . . or both . . .

[TheDonkey]

54. He's a true liberal.

He has fought hard for progressive issues and will continue to fight for them in the WH.

He has the experience and intelelgence to keep us safe, and economy back on track.

[stickdog]

63. Suppose we don't want to be KEPT SAFE. Suppore we want to be

KEPT FREE.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. Global elite, corrupt???

As I recall, Kerry has turned down special interest/corporation money.

And on the other two points, Kerry mistrusted Bush. Again, THIS DOES NOT GET HIM OFF THE HOOK. But Kerry did not want to send the military to Iraq to waste 100 billion dollars and more importantly sacrifice 500 lives for removing a dictator who was not a serious threat and get to find nonexistant weapons of mass destruction.

As far as the attacking Dean goes, I don't like the whole idea of candidates bashing each other but all I can say is that Dean fought back quite fiercely and has attacked Kerry quite a bit.

[mtlipsc]

58. You gotta be kidding

Dean got burned by getting sucked into negativity with Gephart. He's gone pretty easy on Kerry, considering the possibilities.

Kerry is going to get crucified if he gets the nomination. There's plenty of raw material for the Republicans to work with. They'll start hauling out the howitzers just as soon as he has it all sewed up. Then we'll be up the creek without a paddle. Just you watch.

[Indiana Democrat]

61. Because Kerry can beat the idiot...

Dean couldn't.

[stickdog]

65. Kerry will lose 48 states. He can't challenge Bush on Iraq, govt. spending

healthcare, the Patriot Act or jobs -- Bush's five worst failings. Dean has far more credibility to challenge Bush on all five of Bush's worst failings.

[adadem]

66. You're right, Indiana n/t

[Casablanca]

69. The underwhelming force of your dogmatism ...

Says more against your candidate than anything else. If you can't even convert the choir, forget about convincing anyone else.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Dean's supporters seem to be the block to that one

If Howard were part of an unpure Kerry ticket he would no longer be kosher meat to many of his own supporters.