Why when Chavez speaks, Democrats lose support from voters-

[FrenchieCat]

What Chavez is saying about Bush and America's current Foreign relations attitude is what many Democrats have said in the past.....including many of our elected Democrats (see Rangel....who hates Bush and really would like to see him impeached--see those that say that Bush is wrong on Foreign policy, which is most Dems).

That is one of the reasons that the Press has focused so much attention on both Chavez and Iran's President and their rethoric in the last few days.....because they want Americans to hear that what both of these men (that the press also very vividly portray as enemies of America- Chavez is disrespectful and a socialist bordering on communism--see Castro ties heralded as often as possible; and Iran's President is just called a lunatic, crazy, deranged and evil) are saying is so similar to what good Democrats have also been saying.

The good news is that the reason for the similarities between Chavez and Dem Rethoric is that it is the truth.

The bad news is because this truth is in reference to our Foreign Policy....and because this truth is being uttered from the mouth of a "Socialist/Communist" and a "Lunatic" whom the press has worked hard at demonizing for quite some time, many uninformed voters may rationalize that IF Chavez, et al says so, then it must be wrong....and therefore this makes Dems wrong as well.

Call this expected reflexive reaction by unsophisticated voters (and yes, there are many of them): Nationalistic Defense Mechanism of Cognitive Dissonance or whatever you want.....Bottomline is that it can result in a negative effect on Dems candidates running in office presently.

In fact, the more a Dem has been outspoken, the more he/she can be made to sound as though he/he has been a Chavez "sympathizer" all along.

The Corporate media is, in essence, manipulating Voters to feel that if Chavez and Dems agree, then they are both whatever the press says Chavez is.....which is not good.

Chavez would have been better for Democrats to have kept his mouth shut while here in the US....because now the GOP/media plan now is to further demonize Chavez and then portray Democrats as Chavez sympathizers...which will equal something close to treason very shortly, once Karl Rove has his way.

And so, the corporate media is right now giving the option for Democrats to denounce Chavez or be seeing as a Chavez sympathizer....cause in the Corporate Bush Media world....you are either "wid us or you're aginst us".

Democratic candidates only have a couple of options; Denounce Chavez or don't say anything (but when one is asked, that makes it hard...meaning this is a losing proposition; or attempt to articulate why some of what Chavez is saying is true and some is false (known as suicide.....cause once the media has parsed the words uttered with added headlines, one will be seen as a Chavez sympathizer).

This is a Rovian maneuver reminiscent of a combination of the "Red Scare-McCarthy" tactics of the 1950s and the 2002 Iraq War Resolution forced vote....and as long as the press plays, we will lose because so many are so uninformed! :(

[jean]

1. because the right wing spin machine kicks into high gear and catapults

that propaganda very well

[bullimiami]

2. because the world sucks and this country has too many morons.

the media has sold us out and this ruling junta could give a crap about the 'people' it is supposed to serve. they think we are here to serve them.

well, until someone stops them I guess they have a point. they believe the only law is the law of the jungle. might makes right.
fucking bullies. until someone turns around and breaks their noses they will keep rubbing ours in shit.

[Joanne98]

3. We can't help it if Americans are stupid!

They have to grow up sometime. The media LIES! Is there anything else to say? "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins EXPLAINS why the US doesn't like Chavez! The Dems lose because they're cowards. Not because of Chavez!

[FrenchieCat]

15. "The Dems lose because they are Cowards" you say......

and what do WE gain? Cause that's my overiding concern.

[Joanne98]

19. No guts, no glory! The people go with the winner!

But you can't win if you're AFRAID of everything! Tell the Dems to FIRE the strategists. They're idiots!

[FrenchieCat]

22. So how would you address the issue as a Dem leader

in order to step over this one? If you were their strategist, what would you suggest.....and how do you think it would pan out with our Media and Uninformed voters included in the mix? (I really do want to hear good suggestions....cause that may make me hopeful that we can actually win against the media on this).

[Joanne98]

25. I would say, "Chavez is a NON ISSUE!

Accuse the media of wetting their pants over nothing and MOVE ON!

[endarkenment]

28. Indeed.

instead we run around like fools validating every stupid attack the right makes. Oh no we hate Chavez! Oh no we aren't soft on terra! Oh no we aren't waging class warfare! Oh no! Oh my no!

[Joanne98]

26. If that doesn't work make John Carr jokes!

The media is the enemy of the Democrats and they just won't face it. DENIAL KILLS! Blame the HYPERBOLE on a "Pundit Hot Flash". Call them "Nattering nabobs of Negativism". Or just ignore it.

[endarkenment]

4. Just speak the truth.

When the Democratic Party leadership finally starts speaking the truth instead of worrying about how to respond, our party will find its voice again and it will learn that the american people are not really as stupid as the elites all think we are.

[FrenchieCat]

9. I still say that the problem is not so much the truth, but what the media

portrays as the truth.

One of the things I found ironic is that both Chavez/Ahmadinejad have gotten more coverage than any Democrat with something to say has gotten in a long time.

There is a reason for this.

The truth in this country has become relative.

Even if a Dem says one thing, it can be morphed into something else...with a little creativity from our Corporate media. Therefore the solution isn't going to be based on what Democrats are "worried" about....as much as what type of media we have.

As far of how stupid Americans are.....I don't like underestimating them....but thus far, they leave me with little option. Since the media is suggesting how they should think......it is easy for even some of the brightest to start thinking just that way, no matter how stupid it may be in reality.

[endarkenment]

24. Well we can't control the media.

However if our leaders just stuck to the truth and stopped worrying so much about how to be clever the media would not have quite so much obvious bullshit to pile on us with.

The truth is that our invasion of Iraq was and is a war crime.

The truth is that our president has authorized violations of the geneva conventions, he has ordered prisoners to be tortured, and that is a crime and a shame and an outrage.

[blondeatlast]

30. "what the media portrays as the truth.." Absolutely.

It's fine if we political wonks have our better-than-average information regarding nearly every political issue, it's what we do with it that matters.

I take the good stuff from DU and spread it around my e-mail buddies, in the office, etc.

As to the stupidity issue, I don't think most Americans are truly stupid, just misinformed. They never got the truth from the press about Iraq, but now that they have, and objecting to our presence there, the press has picked up the ball and ran with it.

I think that's in large part due to websites like DU--we can have a far, far reaching effect.

People often don't have the time, even if they do have the inclination, to get wise about Washington. That's why I'm here, and I KNOW that my "intelligence" from DU has made a difference among some fence-sitters I know.

The media is lazy and it lies. We need to pick up where they leave off if we are to get our country back.

[Joanne98]

5. Send the voters this link...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&q=chavez

They don't even have to read! It's just like TEE VEE!

[DURHAM D]

6. Did the right thing.

Clinton, Pelosi, Rangle, etc lose no points and in fact gain a few by taking a shot at Chavez. Remaining quiet would have sent the press after the Dems. I almost wonder if the DNC has someone inside the RNC and received a headsup on the game plan. For once the Dems got ahead of the curve and most of them seem to be reading their morning instructions.

Chavez is a hot-head (even though some what he had to say may have been on point if not music to our ears) but the Dems could not let it go. Smart move on our part.

[Evergreen Emerald]

7. my cat threw-up: damn those democrats!

Seriously: the propaganda machine will shout lies from the roof-tops in an attempt to when the election. It is up to Americans to see the BS for what it is.

I am often amazed at the ignorance and laziness of our citizens. Brainless lemmings are ruling America.

[hatenazibush]

8. an alternative.

we should just elect chavez as our president - it can't be worse than what we have here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. ...

I'm willing to beat that most Americans don't have a clue who Hugo Chavez is.

Of those who have, and aren't Fox viewers, seem to respond pretty favorably when they here how he helped people out with heating oil.

[FrenchieCat]

12. The media ain't done yet......

That's something you can take to the bank.

We will see what the "response" is......cause in reality, we haven't yet "seen" anything.

[blondeatlast]

31. My thinking exactly. Wait til the Sunday talking heads pull the

videos out and let's see what happens.

You can bet Tim Russert's gotten the spin memos already...

[Kagemusha]

11. It's not like you can stop Chavez from speaking anyway.

Suck it up and deal.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

14. You are correct....But there are some here who are already arranging

a score boards of Dems that denounce Chavez vs. those who somehow won't. That's what I'm worried about.

I'm don't know if there is a real "solution" to this set-up (cause that's what it is).

So yeah...in the end, the Dems have no option but to suck up and deal...with this non issue.

My point is that are media is really much worse than they are often given credit for.....and it goes way beyond Fox News. :(

[Kagemusha]

27. Sure the media's full of nitwits but, that's normal.

It's not gonna change anytime soon...

[blondeatlast]

32. But we can try to beat them at their own game

which is exactly what this thread is about.

[Peace Patriot]

16. The only thing our Party leaders have to fear is Bushite electronic voting

corporations "counting" all the votes with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, and virtually no audit/recount controls--in the coup they staged in 2002, with the infamous "Help America Vote Act."

Oh, wait! They all voted for it! It must be okay. Nothing to fear.

So all you good little Dem rank and file who try to out-think Karl Rove's pre-written post-election narratives can go to sleep tonight comforted. Our Democratic leaders are on the case! They're knocking Hugo Chavez, a LEGITIMATELY elected leader...

Sheesh.

[FrenchieCat]

17. Sad isn't it....the State of our Union!

So what would you have Dems do? I want to know.

[Joanne98]

21. Yeah! They were told about Diebold THREE YEARS AGO!

But still not even a WORD! But they're going to worry about Chavez? God! Is there no doubt that our problem is our leaders.

[4nic8em]

18. Because...

George Bush is a dipshit...same analogy.

[FrenchieCat]

20. True, true......

and one could argue that even a Broken clock is right twice a day.....

I just don't know if that's gonna do it...although certainly, it should. :)

[Auntie Bush]

23. I think what we must do is denounce Chavez and Ahmadinejad for

their rude and disrespectful comments as state leaders. Criticize them
personally...not what they said...which is the truth. We MUST demise Chavez for now or we're in REAL trouble...and you're right...the Thugs will take every advantage of this. We have to stop this meme in it's tracks!

[blondeatlast]

34. YES! Statesmanship is an effective, but lost, weapon, apparently.

That is the ONLY approach the Democrats (or even principled Rs) should take on the matter.

[dogman]

35. I think that is important.

Refuse to discuss or debate their message, that is a personal opinion to which they are entitled. Statesmanship and leadership preclude such remarks and only further degrade the discourse. Then give the example of "axis of evil" and how much that has damaged the US image in the world.

[blondeatlast]

29. Excellent analysis. We must be very aware as we approach the midterms

of the importance of pragmatics, semanitics, and perceptions.

The press will try to back us into a corner with this kind of simplistic blather and if we aren't aware of it we're in big trouble.

I love it when I see intelligent analysis on my favorite website!

:kick:&R

[tblue]

33. Don't panic. It's early yet.

But we need to be ready when this happens again. Because if it works for the Republicans, trust me, they'll get Chavez to say something else.

BUT if Chavez hears about this, what do you bet he'll keep his trap shut? He hates Bush but he has no qualms with the American people.

I think the Dems should publicly laugh off Chavez and say we've got bigger fish to fry, next subject. Stop doing Rove's work for him.

[Adelante]

36. Worst news - this is GOTV for Repugs

Chavez helps the wrong party with this boorish behavior. It's pretty stupid.

[Fovea]

37. When Chavez is Governor of NY

THen tell him to pipe down. But he is the leader of another country. We don't have to say crap about his opinion of the devil.

[RangerSmith]

38. The Dem response should be

even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Just cause he's right doesn't mean he earned some kind of hero status. Hell, everybody knows bush is an idiot.

[blue cat]

39. CNN on Wolfie

just called Noam Chomsky a "leftist'.

[many a good man]

40. The one and only Democratic response

Never before would any world leaders ever have shown such disrespect to the leader of our country. It proves bush is to blame for a shocking deterioration of the power and respect of the United States. Nothing more, nothing less.

[eridani]

41. So, you are recommending that Dems base their electoral strategy--

--on fear of what Republicans might do? Hey, how has that been working out for us the last six years? :sarcasm:

[FrenchieCat]

42. We haven't based our Strategy anticipating GOP's moves in the last 6 years

2000 election- It took persuading for Gore to get on the populist track midway during the 2000 campaign, as George Bush effectively did by appealing to middle America as the Compassionate Outsider you could have a beer with (even if he ended up being a poser)--instead, for most of the campaign, Gore posed as the ultimate Washington Insider but who distanced himself from the then sitting President (therefore Gore had no strategy for quite some time--since he wasn't about Clinton, and Clinton's record was really the only thing he could run on effectively)......and because he didn't anticipate that the GOP would play fast AND "hardball" during the "recount Debacle", he lost out on that as well.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/072500-106.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore_presidential_campaign,_2000
http://www.perkel.com/politics/gore/recount.htm

"Neither he nor I anticipated this long and difficult road. Certainly neither of us wanted it to happen. Yet it came, and now it has ended, resolved, as it must be resolved, through the honored institutions of our democracy." from Al Gore's concession speech 12/13/00


2002 election- The Democrats also didn't anticipate that the Iraq War vote was a set up in 2002. Many actually voted FOR IT because they wanted to move on to the topic THEY wanted to discuss, which was the economy--cause they focused on the polls, and not on the Republicans' stealth move which was clear if one was actually looking.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3068006/

Democratic Party leaders were anxious to get the Iraq debate out of the way so they could focus on issues like the economy and corporate corruption where they believe Bush and the Republicans are vulnerable.

But Wellstone said that was a false dichotomy. The Iraq issue was not going to go away and the economy was not going away either. Both issues remained dominant in voters' minds.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/PWawvdh.html


and in the 2004 elections- Kerry didn't anticipate how he was gonna be ravaged by the Swift Boaters (although he should have known cause they had appeared during his senate race against Weldon previously) which is why his response was not as forceful and as quick as it could have been....and he certainly was on the defensive, not the offensive. Picking John Edwards as VP, when the issue was going to be winning an election from a incumbent wartime President, didn't help Kerry and his "Hope is on the Way" campaign!

"Now, any good liberal will tell you that failed Republican policies, jobs, the economy, and health care are all vital issues that our next president must address. However, TERRORISM is THE issue our next president — including the one who isn’t president yet but wants to be — must address FIRST. The question isn’t, “Do you want a new direction?” it’s “Do you want to deal with terrorists, terrorism, and the overall situation in the Middle East the way they need to be dealt with? And let me tell you what that is.”
http://bhwblog.com/index.php/?m=200409




The key in battle is to know thy enemy, to anticipate their moves, and to go on the offensive in order to confuse their battle plan.

Ignoring your opponent or operating in a vaccum despite your enemy really is dangerous to an election and a recipe for disaster! So it is very important to know what your enemy will do, and with that information, chart out your own strategy!

[eridani]

43. I'm not advocating ignoring the Repubs

I'm just saying that it might be a better move to try to fully engage the Dem base than to act as if the Rethug base can be appeased by anything publicly visible Dems say.