Is Kerry's support as flimsy as it seems to me?

[jpgpenn]

It seems his support is more a product of bandwagon jumping rather then those with deep heartfelt respect for this guy. Most of what has happened to him has been the making of the media putting his name everywhere and at the same time blackballing others. Is this what a real Democracy is supposed to be made of?

[Dookus]

*yawn*

The primaries have begun. People are making their choices. It's called Democracy.

My guy (and your guy) isn't winning - I don't blame the media, I don't blame Karl Rove, I don't blame voter fraud, I don't blame Janet Jackson's right breast - Kerry's getting the votes, and that's all that counts.

And yes, real Democracy is made of people voting for their choice.

[Bonobo]

3. I DO blame Janet's right breast!

Didn't you SEE that thing man! It was AWE-some!

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

19. As a Kerry supporter, I disagree Dookus

I think Janet Jackson's tit had everything to do with the extra momentum Kerry is getting in the polls lately.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Here's one gun-toting Montana liberal who's been for Kerry for a decade.

[slinkerwink]

2. too bad you haven't lived in Massachussetts to truly understand

what an ineffectual Senator that Kerry has been to us.

[sallyseven]

4. I live in Massachusetts

I find Kerry to be very good. I think those who say he is not are living in another state.

[Bonobo]

41. Nope, just the other SIDE of the state, if you know what I mean.

[Bonobo]

6. I back up that statement.

Ineffectual is about right. Just not much leaderhip.

[blm]

16. Yeah. Were you really AGAINST Kerry exposing more corruption in government

than any lawmaker in modern history?

Did that offend you? You call that ineffectual?

His 100,000 cops on the street bill was ineffectual?

His Hate crimes bill?

The CHIPS bill he worked on with Kennedy that expanded healthcare to children in EVERY state (including Vermont) is ineffectual?

[Dookus]

22. You don't understand...

only a pro-corporate centrist governor of a tiny state running as a faux-populist can be effectual. Kerry's 35 years and multiple re-elections mean NOTHING! NOTHING I TELLS YA!

[Zomby Woof]

62. to quote my friend Colin_Ex

WHAPSH! :D

[Virgil]

38. 100,000 cops out busting pot smokers

I take it as a joke when you say Kerry has exposed corruption. The biggest issue in the country is the complete corruption of the entire system. The media is a corruption of an entire system. Has he called for busting up the media like DK.

Has he told us about the US involvement in the attempted overthrow of the popular and really elected President Chavez in Venezula. Your entire premise is totally upside down.

The Drug Czar is out out saying that marijuana is an addictive and dangerous drug. It is not addictive. It is not dangerous. It is not even a drug. It is not even marijuana. It is a plant. It is called cannabis sativa. It is beneficial and it does something for people. It is not dangerous or their would be bodies everywhere as it is common in use around the world. So when the Drug Bizarre and the 100,000 people carry put out on the street are putting people in jail and taking their property and freedom from them, I see that as a crime. They have exceeded the limits of constitutional authority in imposing a hedgemony that brings us national prohibition and the imposition of the black markets that cause crime in the first place. To arrest someone for consuming cannabis is a violation of their unalienable rights that was mentioned in the Declaration for Independence. I honestly regard Kerry and his Senators of violating the Constitution and robbing people of what was always an unalienable right.

I could go on and on about the corruption of government. Using cannabis I could call up the neglect of the NIH to use the $28 billion a year budget to explore the benefit of cannabinoids to the science of medicine. A tiny company in the UK has jumped through all kinds of hurdles to bring natural clinical cannabis to people mainly using cannabinoids extracted with alcohol, while the big, bad NIH was doing its research as its puppet for industry.

The entire system is corrupted and that is the issue before us. What you say is completely untrue. It does not pass anyones laugh test. I live in the real world and am not going to swallow slogans and hogwash. Get real.

Here again we have an election cycle when the War For Failure, A.K.A. The War on Drugs is omitted from the discussion as it's critics are kept of the conglomerate media and the issue is silenced.
The silence of debate is a corruption in itself that allows the corruption of the drug wars go on.

I don't buy a word you said.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. You mean he hasn't brought home the pork for MA?

I've lived in America and I do truly understand what a great job he has done. I didn't choose Kerry on a whim or because he was the latest flavor, but by watching him for years in the Senate.

[Doomsayer13]

5. Real Democracy = votes

It doesn't matter when Kerry gets them or why one gives it to him. Kerry's proven that he can reach a broad base of Democrats and is deserving of his win.

[jpgpenn]

55. I don't agree

How one gets there votes are just as inmportant as to how we want to be led. I chose not to be led by someone willing to smear of Dem candidates but at the same time defend *bush from "deserter" comments of Michael Moore. There is a pattern here this is from the same guy that went along with *Bush war for oil and now is doing everything he can to distance himself from his own vote.

These are all under the context of Personal Character Issues, all I might add that Kerry has shown to be lacking!

[WilliamPitt]

7. Only if you're basing your perspective on DU

[jpgpenn]

11. Did you you see me write anything pertaining to DU?

I find it kinda odd you would pull that outa the air.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Well

I think a goodish number of DUers think DU is an accurate reflection of political debate in America, that the acrimony is standard. In fact, all the numbers outside DU indicate Democratic unity not seen in 100 years. So it wasn't as out of thin air as all that.

[jpgpenn]

27. once again

you bringing DU into this discussion is a lil off base.

[molly]

48. You are absolutely 100% correct!

[jpgpenn]

52. correct?

To somehow grab from mid air this contrived DU mind set is a bit bizarre in my opinion. It's as if someone has read too many fiction novels.

[corporatewhore]

8. Kerry was not drafted kerrys campaign isnt grassroots based and

doent get much in the way ofsmall individual contributinons

[Dookus]

15. So?

Jerry Brown's candidacy was grassroots based. He lost.
John Anderson's candidacy was grassroots based. He lost.
Ross Perot's candidacy was grassroots based. He lost.
Pat Buchanan's candidacy was grassroots based. He lost.
etc.
etc.
etc.


A grassroots loser isn't something we should strive for.

[bowens43]

45. But it does seem to be getting the lion's share

of the votes? What's your point?

[mitchum]

9. No, but believe what you want

[jpgpenn]

13. I will...

hence my post.

[corporatewhore]

10. my sig pic says it all

[D G]

14. Your respect for your fellow citizens has been noted!

BAAA... BAAA... BAAA...

[jpgpenn]

43. your sig pic does say alot

Sheep jumping on the bandwagon is a more clear message!

[corporatewhore]

73. I did change it from sheep

[D G]

12. Believe it or not - most voters don't fall in love with their candidates

They're too busy living their lives. They vote for the candidate of their choice, and there are a multitude of reasons behind every individual choice. Please do not assume that the majority of voters are hypnotized by the media.

I wish I could get back to being too busy living my own life to care about this race, but I'm a DU addict now. :(

[gate of the sun]

17. I think it's pretty flimsy

it started skyrocketing the minute he did well in the primaries before that I certainly didn't see much support on Du and never heard anyone say that were voting for Kerry. I certainly don't support him and I do not respect him.

[lastknowngood]

18. A mile wide and an inch deep

he will dry up as soon as the shrub turns his attention to him. He knows that so I wounder what his motivation is.

[bowens43]

46. How is this different from an inch wide and a mile deep?

[bigwillq]

21. I agree with your "bandwagon" assessment

There are Kerry supporters on DU but I know no one that I associate with that supports Kerry besides my sister who jumped on the bandwagon last week.
I know alot of peeps who are for Clark, Dean and Edwards

[D G]

What percentage of the Democratic voting demographic do you know?

Are you six degrees of separation from any Kerry supporter?

This is getting humorous.

[bigwillq]

29. Probably about .0000000002%

What I met is that my friends, family, co-workers and people I meet out in social settings, not one except my sister has publicly said they are voting for Kerry. That is all I met by my statement.

[jpgpenn]

30. and that is all that is needed

your general perception is all I was looking for. Not some statistical rebut as this past poster suggested.

[F.Gordon]

24. Ask the 540,000+ people who voted for him

....last tuesday. You know, the "sheeple".

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

25. Bore. Bore. Bore.

Kerry didn't get the media coverage until he started winning. That's what happens in primaries - the winners get winners coverage, the losers don't.

Nobody, I mean NOBODY, got more free media coverage than Dean did. For most of the past year he was all but crowned the obvious winner of the primary and declared the Democratic nominee. Nobody was more surprised than I was that it turned out to be an illusion.

It was Dean's support that was "flimsy". Kerry's support is solid as a rock. You don't have to like it, but the evidence is there in black and white.

[LibDemAlways]

26. Here in CA where Kerry is supposedly ahead in the polls

I have seen no outward signs of support for him - no yard signs or bumper stickers like I've seen for Clark and Kucinich. Lots of people aren't paying attention and will end up voting for Kerry if the media tells them he's ahead or going to win. The "bandwagon" effect certainly worked for Ahnold, and I suppose it will work for Kerry too.

[jpgpenn]

64. of course

This is the same way Washington insiders have been running our country for more years then I was alive.hence the reason we are slipping more and more into the endless black hole!

[kerryistheanswer]

28. Not as flimsy as Dean's

where did all those Deaniacs in NH and Iowa go? How about Michigan - an assumed haven for Dean supporters?

[jpgpenn]

61. You are the only one that has brought up Dean

in this thread. BTW, I don't think using your term for Dean supporters is allowed here!

[Julien Sorel]

31. Of course it's the bandwagon.

with the current format, that's what counts. Kerry is winning according to the rules in effect, and that's about all that can be said.

[kalian]

32. I think this whole primary has been rigged....

again...why aren't people concerned about rigged primary voting?
:eyes:

[Dookus]

34. what do you mean by rigged?

[Duncan Grant]

33. This means absolutely nothing on a national scale, but in San Francisco

there's no evidence of Kerry support. Nada. Zip. Nothing.

No signs in windows, no friends who champion him over coffee, no co-workers who are fired-up, etc. I don't know anyone who's enthusiastic about Kerry (and I'm not a hermit). Granted, this is all anecdotal evidence coming from a Dean supporter so... let's just note that I'm calling myself on it (you don't have to). ;)

Obviously, San Francisco will vote for the eventual nominee, that's a given. If other Bay Area DUer's have a different experience, please share it.

[ramapo]

35. No..he won me over

He has impressed me time and time again.

Watching him at the Gephardt endorsement rally.

Maybe I'm naive but he's for real.

[Nicholas_J]

36. Sure...

Kerry has a lifetime record of taking the same stances he has taken as a candidate for president.

He has supported gay rigtts for many years, long before it was popular to do so, way back in 1985 when he was being told by his democratic peers that it would be the end of his political career to do so.

Long before Ellen Degeneres, Queer Eye for the straight Guy, and Will and Grace became exceptable items for prime time television fare.

His stance on going to war without international support has been constant since he came into office, opposing giving the first President Bush support for going to war in Kuwait before the U.N. had set up international sanctions to try to deal with the situation, and making sure that this time when congress voted on a bill in 2002, it included sections requiring U.N. participation for going to war for any other reason than direct threat to U.S. security.

Far from being thin, in every poll since Iowa, his support has grown to the point which Kerry is taking over 40 percent in all almost all polls and approachinig 50 percent in more than half of them. It is hardly thin support when out of six candidates, you are getting half of the support in polls, and when that support in polls translated into actual votes in primaries. Lets see, out of the seven elections on Tuesday, Kerry took over 40 percent in New Mexico and Arizona, and fifty percent or more in Delaware, Missouri, and North Dakota, coming within three points of both Edwards and Clark in their own region of the nation the south, and coming in second with 30 percent in Edwards own state of birth.

THere is nothing thin about a candidate who is clearly receiving close to half of the vote in the polls for the upcoming elections

In Michigan:

Zogby International 2/3-4 MoE 4.1%

Kerry 47%
Dean 10%
Edwards 8%
Clark 4%
Sharpton 2%
Kucinich 1%
undecided 23%

Mitchell Research & Communications Inc

2/3-5 5%

Kerry 52%
Dean 9%
Edwards 8%
Clark 4%
Kucinich 2%
Sharpton 2%
other 2%
undecided 21%

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/CurrentPolls.htm


Virginia

Survey USA 1/27-29 3.3%

Kerry 32%
Clark 17%
Edwards 17%
Dean 14%
Sharpton 9%
other 6%
undecided 5%


Wisconsin

Univ. of Wis. 1/27-2/3 MoE 5%

Kerry 45%
Dean 12%
Clark 11%
Edwards 6%
Lieberman 4%
Kucinich 3%
Sharpton 1%

http://www.dcpoliticalreport.com/CurrentPolls.htm

Ohio

Survey USA 1/31-2/2 MoE 3.9%

Kerry 44%
Dean 15%
Edwards 13%
Kucinich 7%
Clark 6%
Sharpton 5%
Lieberman 4%
other 3%
undecided 4%
other 3%
undecided 15

http://surveyusa.com/currentelectionpolls.html

Washington

Kerry 40%
Dean 13%


Stuart Elway 1/27-29 MoE 5.5

Tennessee

Survey USA 1/31-2/2 3.9%

Kerry 31%
Clark 26%
Edwards 20%
Dean 15%
other 6%
undecided 3%

http://surveyusa.com/currentelectionpolls.html

California

Survey USA 1/31-2/2 MoE 4.0%

Kerry 49%
Dean 18%
Edwards 12%
Clark 8%
other 9%
undecided 5%

http://surveyusa.com/currentelectionpolls.html

If Kerry's support is rather thin, then the other candidates campaign are anorectic, and nearly on life support.

All of the polls prior to this past tuesdat reflected the same thing, and all of those polls were accurate to within a percent or two of the final results.

[molly]

49. These are a reflection on how most

feel about John Kerry!

[bigtree]

37. No, his support is based on votes cast

Those votes should influence. It is perfectly legitimate to cast a vote based on the impression that he or she can get votes elsewhere. Especially in a primary where we are mostly on the same side. that's not to say there aren't differences. Sometimes the fact that others will vote for a candidate can be the only deciding measure left.

Folks have a right to make up their own minds and neither you nor I can read them. We can't tell by a poll or anything anecdotal what voters are taking into consideration when they vote. All of the wasted print on voter trends can't divine that.

I would suggest that the votes cast are the most dependable measure of public opinion and let it go at that. Anything else is mere presumption.

[Dookus]

39. well put...

they didn't give you an extra ballot when you show up to vote and say "but I REALLY REALLY like my guy!"

We all get one vote.

[D G]

40. And this is why "support" in terms of poll numbers, money, etc.

is not equivalent to votes.

I loved this article so I'm gonna link it again:
http://www.corante.com/many/archives/2004/02/03/exiting_deanspace.php

[Straight Shooter]

42. I want a poll which asks are you voting pro-Kerry or anti-bush?

Maybe that's where the mile wide and inch deep support is coming from.

If Kerry is the nominee, I hope his support in Oregon is strong enough that I won't have to sell my soul and mark my ballot to support him. The only other time I've been so disgusted is when Reagan was selling his snake oil and people were lining up to buy it left, right and center.

[ModerateMiddle]

56. Most everyone who votes for President

is voting against someone, rather than agreeing completely with the candidate for which they are casting a vote. This is and has been Presidential politics forever.

And it's why Kerry will win in November, because regardless of whether folks love him or not, they really hate Bush.

[bowens43]

44. Oh yes, everyone is a sheep except

for those who support the candidates who aren't doing well in the primaries. That's it, that's why Clark is at or near the bottom of the barrel, it's that nasty liberal media conspiracy again.

LOL!! That's too funny.....

[HoosierClarkie]

47. In my state

I have went to every single democratic function to collect signatures since September. I have seen Dean, Gephardt, Kucinich, Clark, but no Edwards or Kerry supporters or even representatives collecting until 3 weeks ago. Both have absolutely no grassroots here! Now all the insiders in my state are furiously trying to get Kerry on the ballot. This speaks a lot for voter support to me. Kerry and Edwards have no meetups either. Watching all this unfolds only leads me to one conclusion.

[jpgpenn]

53. Kerry is the Washington insiders candidate!

Without a doubt this is the case. with that Kerry gets the media Bandwagon treatment and America gets the same corrupt shallow shills we have over and over again!

If this election isn't one of complete change in Washington, then we will never see one!

[Octafish]

50. Kerry's campaign took off when people found out who he IS.

Sen. Kerry finally got some press coverage, due to his success in the early caucuses and primaries. Once people discover his 38-year record of public service, they like what they see. When they discover his views for the future -- from public education to protecting the environment and from universal health insurance as good as Congress' to raising the minimum wage -- they like what Kerry can do for the country's future.

[jpgpenn]

51. You mean the man that has...

Gone along with *Bush on war and has also defended *Bush against unpatriotic Americans like Michael Moore (deserter issue )?

Sorry this is a guy i want to stay way clear of. Washington insiders keeping the status quo is the last thing our country needs at this time!

[blindpig]

54. Kerry's environmental record IS excellent

and the endorsement of LCV don't hurt. The environment is a great issue for us, providing a good opportunity to peel away many votes.
Dennis is my 1st choice, as his holistic approach to gov will be better for the environment in the long run, but Kerry is a strong 2nd, despite some odious baggage, which all of the major contenders have.

[Southsideirish]

57. Began in Iowa with those "rock star" rallies and their locating

that veteran whom he saved in Viet Nam so they could have this big "half a hug" reunion which made the national news big time.
The events were very well staged and bringing in Kennedy was a brilliant move as someone from Iowa must have told them the Kennedy name is still powerful there.
After that, with his constant harping at Dean (even making snide comments his family's absence)at the debates and elsewhere, some bullying at the caucuses and "under the radar" help from Iowa Dem (non-Harkin) establishment he went on to victory - then the herd began jumping on.
While he does have gravitas, is tall and has a great voice I don't think he is personable or likable and if he is the nominee - I think he will be defeated by Bush and there will be a huge split in the Democratic party - maybe the end of it altogether.

[jpgpenn]

58. it made national news because

The media is in on this whole Kerry rise. This is thier creation! At the same time they totally blacked out Clark and destoyed Dean in the news clips.

What goes on now is the same status quo movement that Washington insiders have been playing for years. The same movement that has almost rendered our country useless!

[adriennel]

59. I agree

it's been especially sick in MI, where all our wonderful Dems nearly fell over each other in the rush to endorse Kerry. We'll see about his support. I'll do what I have to do, but I was hoping to do so with a little more integrity. peace.

[jpgpenn]

60. I know where you are coming from

[adadem]

63. Not in Michigan

incredible support statewide! volunteers galore...lot's of angry Republicans signing on!

[ozone_man]

65. You are correct in my opinion.

The media and special interest groups that back Kerry are very powerful and catapulted him into the lead. His support is very shallow though, and can come tumbling down just as easily. It's sad that so much of the population is spoon fed by the media and do not crtically evaluate the candidates by themselves.

This is not what real Democracy is made of. We still have a few chances left this year to regain it, but time is running out.

[jpgpenn]

66. Your optimistic last sentence ...

says it all. Thanks for the post!

[bigtree]

69. Question: What's the difference . . .

between A.?: KERRY IS NOT ELECTABLE!


and B.?: KERRY IS ELECTABLE!


Answer: Choice B is positive, optimistic, and foward thinking.

[jpgpenn]

70. yea if you are a supporter of current Washington...

and the mess they have made of our country! BTW, thanks for asking an question then going on to answer it for yourself!

[bigtree]

72. Your entire post is a circular argument

Here's your query. Asked and answered.

"Is Kerry's support as flimsy as it seems to me?

It seems his support is more a product of bandwagon jumping rather then those with deep heartfelt respect for this guy. Most of what has happened to him has been the making of the media putting his name everywhere and at the same time blackballing others. Is this what a real Democracy is supposed to be made of?"


Fallacy of Weak Induction > Fallacy of Presumption

Explanation:

This is the most basic and classic example of a Fallacy of Presumption, because it directly presumes the conclusion which is at question in the first place. This can also be known as a "Circular Argument" - because the conclusion essentially appears both at the beginning and the end of the argument, it creates an endless circle, never accomplishing anything of substance. Other names include Circulus in Probando, Circulus in Demonstrando and Vicious Circle.

A good argument in support of a claim will offer independent evidence or reasons to believe that claim. However, if you are assuming the truth of some portion of your conclusion, then your reasons are no longer independent: your reasons have become dependent upon the very point which is contested. The basic structure looks like this:

1. A is true because A is true.

Here is an example of this most simple form of begging the question:

2. You should drive on the right side of the road because that is what the law says, and the law is the law.

Obviously driving on the right side of the road is mandated by law (in some countries, that is) - so when someone questions why we should do that, they are questioning the law. But if I am offering reasons to follow this law and I simply say "because that is the law," I am begging the question. I am assuming the validity of what the other person was questioning in the first place.

3. Affirmative Action can never be fair or just. You cannot remedy one injustice by committing another. (quoted from the forum)

This is a classic example of a circular argument - the conclusion is that affirmative action cannot be fair or just, and the premise is that injustice cannot be remedied by something that is unjust (like affirmative action). But we cannot assume the unjust-ness of affirmative action when arguing that it is unjust.

However, it is not usual for the matter to be so obvious. Instead, the chains are a bit longer:

4. A is true because B is true, and B is true because A is true.

5. A is true because B is true, and B is true because C is true, and C is true because A is true.

[MessiahRp]

67. Hmmm... if "flimsy bandwagon jumping" means....

working for the campaign since February 2003, then sure I'm a jumper. I was working for Kerry when nobody else was even interested in the 2004 election yet and stayed working with him when the media tried it's damnedest to declare his candidacy dead.

Maybe the real issue is DU is full of people that are way too attached with the romantic fantasy of a Liberal Dean Presidency (especially since Dean is not liberal).

It's time to start grasping reality. Kerry leads in polls for every state and will win three more tonight. Dean says WI is do or die. As an Area Coordinator here in WI for the campaign, I say Dean dies here (recent polls here have Kerry up 45-12).

If Dean and Clark drop out will we still see all these Kerry bashing posts here, or will some of you finally show that you are on Democratic Underground because you are first and foremost a democrat?

It's gutcheck time for some of you who claim to want Bush out but do everything in your power to attack the guys who are beating the ultra liberal Kucinich, or the fake liberals like Dean or Clark.

Rp

[jpgpenn]

68. NO, it means...

Having a candidate that was virtually dead in the race ( so much so he borrowed against his own home to make ends meet ), all of a sudden have his name splashed all over the media and supporters coming outa no where from all angles over night! All this mind you, while others were completely shut out of news coverage even though they were placing second in elections and taking in large sums of money from supporters!

This bandwagon candidate is the same one that has voted along with *Bush and defended him against "deserter" claim!

[NashVegas]

71. Bandwagon Jumpers, or Lemmings?

Tennessee May Be Election Milestone

NASHVILLE — Camilla Meek is the worst nightmare of the candidates chasing John F. Kerry in the Democratic presidential race.

Until recently, she didn't think much of the senator from Massachusetts, whom she had seen up close as a Boston native who moved to Nashville in the fall. She still doesn't find him particularly warm or charismatic.

But his victories in Iowa and New Hampshire persuaded her that Kerry represented the Democrats' best hope of beating President Bush.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tennessee7feb07,1,2826469.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

Great, ain't it?

[Moderator]

74. Locking.....

This post violates these rules:

4. Broad-brush statements about all or some of the supporters or opponents of any Democratic Primary candidate are forbidden. Don't paint people as disruptors or cult members.

1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory.



DU Moderator