I've just started reading, Conservatives Without Conscience

[Tyo]

The title has always struck me as odd because I didn't think that there was any other kind, but I was wrong. I didn't know much about Barry Goldwater, but Dean spends quite a bit of time on him and I did some Googling and all I can say is wtf happened?

Goldwater working to integrate the Arizona National Guard even before the Army was officially integrated? Goldwater supporting gay rights later in his life? I know he was a real hawk when it came to Viet Nam and he had some pretty random thoughts in other areas. I mean he was a Conservative after all. But from what I've read, he was honest and fair and wasn't out to intentionally screw anyone over or shove his own set of personally selected morals down your throat.

I can't believe he was the only one back in the sixties who was like that. What happened to make the Conservatives we are stuck with now such total fucks?

[NMDemDist2]

1. greed n/t

[Freedom_from_Chains]

2. Yes and he actually understood there is separation of church

and state in the Constitution.

[Cassandra]

3. Although he was raised Episcopal...

he was descended from "Big Mike" Goldwasser, a very well known Jewish pioneer and store owner in early Arizona. I'm sure he appreciated the value of separation of church and state.
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/980605/edit.shtml
"His Jewish grandfather, "Big Mike" Goldwasser, left his native Poland in the mid-19th century to avoid conscription in the Russian army. Lured to America by aspirations for a better life, he and his brother tried their hands at several failed businesses, including a California saloon, before setting their sites on the Arizona Territory. They filled a mule-drawn wagon with goods, and then set out for Gila City, a mining camp east of Fort Yuma. Eventually, they established permanent locations in La Paz and nearby Ehrenberg, then stores in Prescott, Bisbee and Phoenix. By the early 1900s, Goldwater's had become Phoenix's leading department store.

Goldwater followed his grandfather and father into the mercantile business, and then pursued a political career, in which he soon established himself as the voice of American conservatism. His entrepreneurial spirit, Western individualism and intense love of freedom were the legacy of the Goldwasser family, even as he was raised in the religion of his Episcopalian mother, and even as his political philosophy diverged from his family's more liberal democratic bent. (Goldwater's uncle Morris, a close political mentor, was a founding father of the Arizona Democratic Party.)"

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. That explains why he had such disdain for the religious right.

Experience.

Thanks for the post.

[Tyo]

6. Great post, thanks.

Is there a biography of BG or the Goldwasser family that you would recommend?

[Cassandra]

8. No idea

I just put in Big Mike Goldwasser into Google and picked one of the entries that came up. I knew about it because of a couple of books I have; Pioneer Jews and We Lived There, Too.
Linda Ronstadt is from a Jewish family, too.

[Minnesota_Lib]

12. My brush with Barry Goldwater...and this other guy.

When I was 11 years old, my parents towed me along to the Republican National Convention in San Francisco. During the course of the event, I met many Republican luminaries of the day including Margaret Chase Smith, Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr and William Scranton. Of course, being a child, the conversations were pretty much limited to, “Hi there, son. Be sure your parents support me for the party’s nomination.”

I do distinctly remember shaking Goldwater’s hand and having him autograph this giant (about 1 foot in diameter), flat cardboard “Goldwater in ‘64” button I had acquired somewhere that day (my folks were big Goldwater supporters).

But by far, my most distinct memory of that convention was when I cracked up this rather large, gregarious fellow by handing him that same gigantic Goldwater button and asking him to sign it. He and those around him broke out in uncontrolled laughter. He then took the giant button, signed it and gave me a great big bear hug.

His name was Nelson Rockefeller (Goldwater’s main competition for the nomination that year).

I had no idea what predicated their laughter until my parents later explained it to me. Man, I was embarrassed. :)

[Tyo]

13. Mr. Rockefeller proably told that story for years after

And I think he was another one. Where has the "loyal" opposition gone?

[yasmina27]

4. My husband is a Goldwater republican

He has voted twice against * because * does not represent the values of the original Republican party. His father was a big-wig in the RNC up until his death in 1988. While he apparently wasn't much of a father (I never knew him), according to my husband he would have "kicked KKKarl Rove's punk ass all the way back to where he came from". While he was a Repub. operative, his activities, while morally questionable, were never illegal.

I think alot of people just vote Repub. because it's their "heritage" - my mom being one of them. She still remembers her parents as Repubs who supported Eisenhower, Goldwater, and Nixon. My mom worshiped her father, and if he believed something then it was good enough for her. I told her before the 04 elections that if the * crew were TRUE republicans, then I wouldn't find them quite so objectionable.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

7. Some Godlwater quotes

“I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass.”

“You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight.”

“If everybody in this town connected with politics had to leave town because of chasing women and drinking, you would have no government.”

“It's wonderful that we have so many religious people in our party, ... They need to leave their theologies in their churches.”

“The rights that we have under the Constitution covers anything we want to do, as long as its not harmful. I can't see any way in the world that being a gay can cause damage to somebody else,”

[Tyo]

9. Isn't it amazing?

Again I gotta ask, what happened to them? God and Greed? Guess Dean's book will give me one interpretation.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

10. That's the same question a lot of former conservatives are

asking themselves today. My answer, the religious right, they forced real conservatives out because we got tired of listening to their ranting and raving.

[ComerPerro]

23. neoCons, real Conservatives, they're both terrible people

[Freedom_from_Chains]

29. So are dipshits.

[ComerPerro]

30. Thanks. I love being called a dipshit by someone advocting GOP propaganda

[Freedom_from_Chains]

31. Son, you wouldn't know what propaganda was if it come up and

bit you in your ass.

[Skittles]

32. IGNORE is your friend

I use it for fly-under-the-radar-trolls

[nevergiveup]

11. When it came to fighting communists

he was at times, a little nuts, but he had a good heart and he detested the intrusion of religion into politics. I still have a drawer full of Goldwater/Miller bumper stickers, posters and buttons. Vietnam and the struggle for civil rights changed me politically forever but I was just a teenager at the time and when I reflect back to the campaign of 64, I feel good.

[Generic Brad]

14. The definition of conservatism has changed

It used to mean "fiscally responsible". Now it means "asshole".
:yoiks:

[Tyo]

15. At best.

[ComerPerro]

17. It NEVER meant "fiscally responsible". That's just a myth and a lie

it meant that they believed in less government spending on things that actually help people.

And they believed in not taxing the rich, and letting large corporations run rampant without regulation.

[Generic Brad]

19. Then I stand corrected

It has always meant "asshole".
:dunce:

[Raksha]

36. They were always opposed to welfare and anything they considered

a "government handout" for as long as I can remember, even the so-called "principled conservatives." I guess I first became politically aware when I was in my mid-teens, in the early 1960s. The Religious Right existed then too--it just wasn't as big or as organized.

When I was 17 I had an American Government (i.e. Civics) teacher who was a Goldwater Republican and who was also rumored to be a member of the John Birch Society. He used to wave the Bible around in the classroom and lecture us about abstinance and similar stuff not appropriate to an American Government class. This guy was kind of a prototype of today's full-blown right-wing wacko. He looked a little bit like JFK, who he referred to as "that man in the White House," and it bugged him no end. My boyfriend at the time was so afraid I'd get brainwashed by this loon, but the experience had the opposite effect. It confirmed me as a liberal Democrat for life!

Looking back on that experience, I can't really see that much of a difference in kind--it's more a matter of degree. I don't think the conservatives back then were the same kind of full-blown sanctimonious criminals most of them are now, but the seeds were definitely there. In fact, the pattern of growth and development becomes much clearer in retrospect.

[ComerPerro]

16. John Dean is an asshat.

There is not much difference between "old school" conservatives and today's neocons. They are just more direct in getting what they want.

ALL conservatives want to gut social spending, screw poor people, give handouts to the rich, and sell off our resources like our national parks and programs like Social Security to the highest bidder.

Its a disturbing sign of the success of the RW propaganda when I see DUers praising and fawning over "old school" conservatives.

[Tyo]

18. Okay, sooo...

all Conservatives are now and forever have been and forever will be evil and destructive. If we accept that then we can further conclude that there is nothing wrong with the current state of American politics aside from the fact that the it's the wrong party that is exercising total power. As far as I'm concerned a totalitarian is a totalitarian and there is not much to choose between one on the right and one on the left.

[ComerPerro]

21. then you are probably in the wrong place

[Tyo]

25. Sorry dude,

I don't think that totalitarianism is what DU is all about.

But if it is, then you're right. I am in the wrong place. From the tone of your posts you are just as dogmatic and narrow and convinced of your own rightiousness as any Rethug and if that's the norm around here then I'm wasting my time.

[ComerPerro]

27. For the second time, I am not advocating totalitarianism

basically, I am saying that you shouldn't waste this site's bandwith by fawning over conservatives.

If I want to read a circle-jerk about the virtues of "old-school" conservatism, I'll go to Free Republic.

This is Democratic Underground, not, "God, I really miss those Goldwater Conservatives, they really had the right idea" Underground.

[Berry Cool]

20. Did it occur to you that maybe those old-school conservatives

really do believe that people are better off helped by the private sector than by the government? You and I may disagree with them on that, but I am much more likely to respect a Republican who says the rich have an obligation to directly help the poor in return for getting tax cuts--and then puts his money where his mouth is by giving. He believes in social spending--he just believes he can do it better than the government can.

Not all conservatives want to gut every government program. Yes, they're more in favor of private spending than taxes. But ideally, they believe that it's worth spending money on helping the poor, preserving national parks, etc.

The problem is that the modern conservative doesn't see any value in putting his money toward those things, whether in the form of taxes or private giving. He just thinks it's HIS money and HE's gonna keep it, dammit. He fails to see how his government helped him make his money; he considers himself a self-made man with no reason to plow his profits back into his country, or use them to help anyone less fortunate get a leg up until he can make it on his own. He sees no advantages to helping the poor; it will only make them lazy. He sees no advantage to preserving national parks; the Rapture is coming soon, so who cares? He sees no virtue in Social Security; let people pay for their own retirements. When such a conservative does give any of his own money, he gives it only to faith-based charities who do good as a means of propagating his own personal religious beliefs, or who support his own rigid moral values and try to codify them into law. Otherwise, his money goes to benefit him and him alone, and his family. Everyone else can go to hell.

Given the choice of those two types of conservatives, I know which one I'd be able to tolerate even if I disagreed with him, and which one I'd find insufferable.

[ComerPerro]

22. You're seriously advocating conservatism here...

This is what's wrong with our party.

People like John Dean and Lou Dobbs have convinced liberals that Conservatism is something sacred and pure and beautiful.

[Tyo]

24. Where have I used the words "sacred", "pure" and "beautiful"?

You are seriously advocating one-party rule here. You are starting to sound as convinced of your own moral superiority as the Christian Taliban and the NeoCons are of theirs.

[ComerPerro]

26. Nowhere did I advocate one-party rule

But when you start talking about the virtues of "old school" conservatives, it just makes me sick.

What has conservatism honestly ever contributed to benefit humanity?

[Tyo]

28. In a two-party system you need an opposition

It seems to me that in order for such a system to function properly and to keep everyone honest there has to be trust on both sides. Trust that everyone will follow the rules even while they disagree on which way the country should go. Obviously we don't have that now and we need to get it back.

But what it sounds to me like you are saying is that Conservatives can never be trusted. Not now, not then, not ever. So with that kind of thinking how is anything but a one-party system possible?

[ProudDad]

33. Your basic assumption is flawed

Why do we need a "two party system"?

Especially when it's the two right wings of the business party...

[Tyo]

37. It's not flawed at all

For most of our history we've had a two party system that has for the most part served us pretty well I think, and it's essentially what we have now although it's pretty disfunctional at the moment.

But you seem to be assuming that I think this is the only system we could possibly have and that's not true. I'd be interested in any alternatives that you think would work for us.

[ProudDad]

38. Proportional representation

Instant run-off voting

Public financing of elections at all levels

Force the media, OUR AIRWAVES, to be proporioned equally to all candidates and ban paid political ads just as cigarette ads were banned -- for essentially the same reason, they are pollution!

Preserve and Defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC!

Just a few ideas off the top of my head...

[Tyo]

39. I'd go for all of those

Maybe just switch over to some sort of parliamentary system like they have in Canada, the UK,
Germany, etc. My earlier comments were in the context of what we have or are supposed to have now.

[ProudDad]

35. Cough, Leiberman

[ProudDad]

34. For your Information

It's a pretty good book.

Dean takes on the task of explaining the psychological motivation of modern "conservatives" and their disfunctional makeup.

He details the pathology of people like bush, cheney, rumsfeld, etc. It's well researched and interesting. He makes sense of the actions of people like them and people in my family who are also "authoritarian followers" of the highest order.

It's well worth reading to understand the enemy...

-------------------------

Even so, I agree with the folks here who correctly state that all conservatives are basically carriers of an evil doctrine. This evil doctrive would result in the end of life on this Earth if it's not stopped and soon!