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Election Math for Democrats: 2 + 2 + 2 = Clark

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 04:57 PM
Original message
Election Math for Democrats: 2 + 2 + 2 = Clark
Sometimes Democrats are as stubborn as the mule that represents us. How many times can Republicans smack us over the head with a "National Security" stick before we see it coming BEFORE it whacks us? Republicans signal their plans to attack us clearer than Al Quada. Republicans Bush whacked us with "security" in 2002, then they Bush whacked us with "security" in 2004, and now they're trying to Bush whack us with "security" again in 2006.

Thankfully there are signs that the Mule is kicking back, but more from reflex than from strategy, and any boxer knows that's not the best way to win a fight. Bill Clinton was right to get angry at FOX, it was past high time to do so. Anger sets off passion and passion shakes up a game board, and something sure as hell needed to get shaken because the way this game's been played of late, Democrats usually lose. But the fact remains, this fight again started out with Democrats playing defense, and it's a usually a bad idea to always wait for the other guy to land the first punch.

National Democrats tried so hard to stay out of the way while the Bush Administration seemed to be self destructing this Summer, that we never pressed the case that we have always needed to press; it's the Democrats, not the Republicans, who know how to keep America safe in today's dangerous world. This is not to say that leading Democrats never make or made that case, what I said was we never pressed it, and there is a big difference. Democrats routinely shy away from fully engaging Republican neocons in a debate about national security strategy.

There are several reasons for this and I already touched on one of them; reports coming out of Iraq remain terrible, and Democrats thought letting the spot light linger on the horrific small picture of Iraq's daily deadly drum roll would serve them well in November. They are right, it will, so of course Republicans are doing everything in their power to move the focus off of Iraq and onto the far more slippery slope of "The War on Terror". Republicans constantly talk about being strong, of having resolve, and of delivering results that all Americans welcome; no repeats of 9/11.

Republicans grab full credit for what has not happened since 9/11 as emphatically as they push full blame for what did happen on 9/11 onto Clinton and the Democrats. It should not have taken a political genius to anticipate how this group of Republicans would exploit the 5th anniversary of 9/11. We could have beaten them to their punch years ago, with no exploitation necessary, just by doggedly advancing the concept of accountability, but few Democrats wanted to dwell on the months that preceded 9/11, the period Wesley Clark referred to when he accused George W. Bush of "Command Negligence" over three months ago as he addressed the Texas Democratic Convention.

Few Democrats had even heard of "The Path to 9/11" when Wes Clark leveled that charge at Bush, let alone gotten furious over that heavy handed effort to pin the blame on Democrats, but Clark could see what was coming and he moved to preempt it. It is relatively easy to respond to an attack. The real trick is to correctly anticipate one and then act first. Here is some of what Wes Clark had to say on June 9th in Texas:

"The truth is…the truth is we could be doing so much more. You know, when this administration came into office in January of 2001, they ignored the advice of the people who’d been in office for 8 years. We knew that Osama bin Laden was the principal threat to the United States of America but I guess George Bush thought he knew more than we did and so he just shoved it aside – he and Condi and Dick Cheney and the rest of the crowd. They didn’t want to hear it. Terrorism – that was a Democratic problem and when he was warned in the summer of 2001 that Osama bin Laden was determined to strike the United States, he went on vacation.

Now I can understand wanting to come back to Texas on vacation – it’s a pretty darn nice place down here and I can even understand wanting to chop cedar – I’ve got a little place in western Arkansas and I’ve been looking at all that stuff there and it makes me want to go out and chop every now and then too – but he shouldn’t have done it. It’s what I call ‘command negligence’ because… I think any reasonable person who was Commander in Chief at the time who had gotten a warning like that would have called the members of the cabinet together and said ‘fellas, ladies, I don’t know what this warning means but this is not happening on my watch – you put your heads together, you’ve got 2 weeks, you come up with an action plan – I want to know what you’re doing in the Justice Department, what the FBI’s doing, what DOD’s doing, what CIA’s doing’ – and he would have been a leader and he might have saved a lot of lives.

Now why am I going back over ancient history? Because it’s not ancient. Because we went to war in Iraq to cover up the command negligence that contributed to 9/11. And it was a war we didn’t have to fight. Thank you. That’s the truth and I hope every Democrat around this country sees you all on your feet acknowledging the reality of the world we’re living in today thanks to the misleadership of this Republican administration. I’ve been in war. I don’t believe in it and you don’t do it unless there’s absolutely, absolutely, absolutely - no alternative. "
http://securingamerica.com/node/1083

It is my opinion that most of the Democratic Party still hasn't reached a comfort level sufficient to run a national campaign highlighting the issue of National Security, which leaves it to Republicans to define that realm of political conflict to the electorate on their own terms. Democrats tend to dwell on specific Republican foreign policy failures without powerfully articulating an overall foreign policy alternative. For example Democrats usually talk about ways to get America out of the Iraq nightmare (as well we should) while Republicans always talk about how to keep Americans safe. Bush, Cheney, and company routinely kick it up a level to obscure the messy details of their specific failures.

Republicans present a clear vision for achieving National Security and it relies on the naked projection of American military force. People know where Republicans claim to stand; they stand on (but never really for) the military. Democrats often come off weaker to voters on National Security, and I think that’s because typically we fail to take command of this issue. Democrats are quite fluent on domestic issues, it's in our political culture, it's what we traditionally have always talked about. But National Security never seems to roll as effortlessly off Democratic tongues as it does off of Republican ones.

That is more than a shame, that is a tragedy, because Democrats have a real vision for National Security, and it is one that actually fits the world we live in, unlike the gung ho neocon military wet dream that propels the Bush Administration. Democrats are mostly running against an unpopular Bush Presidency in this mid term election, and that may be enough to win, but we won't have George Bush to kick around in 2008, most likely we'll get John McCain, or failing that perhaps someone like Mitt Romney. The Republicans won't run anyone too closely identified with the Bush Administration in 2008 unless somehow Bush regains political traction, and if that ever happens we're in worse trouble than I thought we were.

Here's something that worries me. A Democrat who is not comfortable talking about National Security will usually overcompensate by trying to sound "tough", and that is always a dangerous thing. Heaven forbid that he or she might actually believe their own Republican lite saber rattling rhetoric, but regardless it will be seen as just that; a Republican lite shadow of the real thing, and when it comes to feeling safe, people like it real.

Which brings me finally to my subject line, how the Election math adds up to Wes Clark in 2008. For one thing, when it comes to National Security, it simply doesn't get more real than a Four Star General. I'll invoke K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) here. Our 2008 Democratic Presidential candidate can be someone who attempts to explain in great detail why a soft on security label being pinned on him or her by Republicans does not really fit, or our candidate can be the most decorated American military officer since Dwight T. Eisenhower, who led and won a war after serving in our military non stop after coming home wounded from Viet Nam. The Republican Party never concedes a point without a fight, but attempting to frame General Clark as soft on National Security can never pass the K.I.S.S. test, since it is so obviously illogical on the surface.

Ironically though, the obvious advantage Wes Clark presents Democrats in 2008 is the least of it. It won't be his uniform that will be most valuable to us in regaining the White House, it will be Clark's strategic vision, both for our Nation and for our Party. Democrats have a very strong case to make that we know how to keep America safe in today's world but few Democrats besides Wes Clark have tirelessly worked to sell it.

It honestly amazes me how relatively infrequently, since 9/11, Democrats invoke the successes that the Clinton Administration achieved in pursuing our legitimate security needs on an international stage, in contrast to the Bush Administration's failed record. Clark was there for all of them, for containing Hussein in Iraq, for ending virulent and murderous ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia, for systematic Nation building in Bosnia and Kosovo, for managing the North Korean threat, for developing detailed plans to deal with Osama Bin Laden, to strengthening our Alliances around the world, and much more. Clark knows how to sell a Democratic vision for National Security, and it is always eminently believable that he can deliver on it for America, as our next President.

Wes Clark has the gravitas it will take to defeat John McCain in 2008, and Clark knows exactly how to position our Party for victory. It is by no means a coincidence that the URL for his web site is securingamerica.com Wes Clark is the prototype for all the "Fighting Dems" who followed him into Democratic politics this year, and he actively recruited and supported strong grass roots endorsed candidates like Jim Webb and Eric Massa who fit that mold perfectly. Clark understands that once the Democratic Party shatters the Republican sponsored myth that we are anti-military and can not be trusted to protect America, that the game is up for them in National Elections, because the Republican Party needs that myth to win. As it now stands, Republicans almost always lose national elections if a race stays focused on Domestic issues.

One more thing, and I saved the best for last because it deserves a whole study of its own which I don't have time or space for here. Wes Clark constantly and skillfully courts a block of voters that is big enough to redraw the entire electoral map if it ever shifts Democratic. That is the military vote; encompassing all those serving now, all those who previously served, plus all of their dependents. Collectively they comprise a massive pool of voters counted on by today’s Republican Party to lean strongly Republican, to the extent that their loyalty has long been taken for granted by Republicans, similar to the way that Democrats once counted on Catholics to vote Democratic.

It isn't just that Clark was a military man himself, it's the way Clark tirelessly defends the human needs of all those now serving in uniform, and all those who served previously. It is a corner stone of Clark's political work, and if he manages to succeed in stealing the loyalty of those men and women away from a Republican Party that routinely chews them up and spits them out under today's Republican leadership, Solid Red States may someday be entered onto an endangered species list.

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capi888 Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!!! Tom!
Wow, you said it al 2+ 2+ 2 = Wes Clark. Thank you for laying this out for everyone to see. Makes sense to me and I know he is the ONLY one who can truly make the difference in the Mess this Administration has created. Kudos!
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. Makes no sense to me.
The problem with Clark is that the presidency would be his first elective office. We can list generals who had no previous political experience: Washington, Harrison, Grant and Eisenhower(others?)

But all of those were well known, were considered military heroes, unlike Clark, who is not well known. Even Colin Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf could have pulled it off. But I don't think Clark - whose claim to fame is in Yugoslavia as the head of NATO, is in their league in terms of popularity.

I don't think the voters are ready for a neophyte politician as president - except for well known heroes.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. I disagree of course.
I think the public is more than ready for Wes Clark. The response he is getting as he travels around the country has been outstanding. Have you watched the video of his keynote address to the Texas Democratic Convention in June? He had that crowd repeatedly on its feet cheering him on, and that is just one example. Reviews coming in from his trip around the nation stomping for Democrats in relatively conservative areas all comment on how hard hitting Clark is, and how well he is connecting with his audiance. Here is the link to the transcript and video of his Texas speech again:http://securingamerica.com/node/1083

Another good example is Clark's Real State of the Union Speech that he gave in January. You can see a video of that one here:
http://securingamerica.com/node/560
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Your point doesn't ring true with me.
How many people have seriously talked about running Oprah Winfrey for President? I remember a poll some years back where Winfrey was actually the top choice for President out of all choices polled on.

I mean, at least Clark actually has real-time experience in foreign policy.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. I have a partial sentence for you that says it all....
Taken from the UCLA International Institute's front page introduction of General Clark on Sept.18, 2006...

"Clark's 40 years of military leadership, teaching, research and EXECUTIVE MANAGEMENT in FEDERAL GOVERNMENT led to....etc., etc,"

I just want you to do one thing...name me one possible "current" contender for president who can claim the same in any way shape or form..just one...who has 40 years of experience, period...

40 YEARS...4-T years...forty Y-E-A-R-S....F-O-R-T-Y...damn it...forty (40)years experience...he has taught at West Point...was a Rhodes Scholar...has worked in the govt in DC...there is NO position in the world more political...than that of being a high ranking officer (GENERAL) in the US ARMY...being the commander of a military base has even more responsibility than being a mayor...or a governor..because you are responsible for every aspect of your men's lives...from the schools their kids attend...to preparing them for war...that's far more responsibility than any elected office requires...and you also get to answer to SUPERIORS while holding the position..when you get right down to it...tell me that * as a former governor of the Great State of Texas...was prepared in any manner to be president of this country? Just because he held elected office??? uh uh...I will take General Clark and his experience any damned day...over the nitwit who's screwing this country over right now...

Ever since 2004, Gen.Clark has been working to get other Democrats elected....he's been all over this country, so if people don't know who he is by now...I guess we can thank the msm...since all we hear about are the dastardly doers currently in power...
windbreeze
A "Wes Clark Democrat" and damned proud of it...
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. I adore Wes Clark.
But I think his talent and expertise would be best suited for Secretary of Defense or maybe State.
He would be brilliant.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I think at this point we do need a President with talent and expertise
in the areas in which Wes Clark excels.

I think that he would be brilliant as President...and more than that, I think Dems would be brilliant to nominate him considering the times we live in.

Bush has already stated that he's leaving the issue of Iraq to the next President. When one adds Iran, the whole ME, North Korea, China and Russia, the MIC, and PNAC to the mix, I don't know if what we need is someone running for President who has no experience with such matters.

I would also consider Al Gore for the same reason....although Al Gore never made me as enthusiastic about politics as Wes Clark has.

But of course, that's just me. :)




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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I supported Wes in the 2004 primary.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 06:35 PM by AtomicKitten
I thought he was the best of the bunch that ran, although Gore would have been and remains my favorite. I think 2000 really put a dent in my psyche and I long for a do-over that he so deserves.

The reason I think Wes Clark's particular talents and expertise would be best spent as Secretary of Defense or State is because nobody comes near him in that regard. Not by a long-shot.

Plus he's easy on the eyes. :)
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. He unfortunately can't. be SoD...must be retired for 10 years.
I don't know about SoS. He'd be good at that too...however he'd be best as president. Then he/we can use all his expertise in many areas.
I've got my fingers crossed!
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Parisle Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Tom,............ Nice job.....
---That was a brilliantly-conceived and brilliantly-written post,..... We are all indebted to you,... even including Gen. Clark. Unless there is some behind-the-scenes political chicanery, Clark will have to be the nominee, too. Regardless of how he plays with democrats in the eventual primaries, he is already the clearly-most-electable democrat. His campaign strong-points also extend to his shrewd and well-spoken abilities in live debate,... and even his positive photogenic appeal. A very strong national candidate,.....
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Great analysis, Tom. After hearing Wes speak at a tribute to Gert last
June, I truly hope he can pull it off. In general, his grasp of national security alone makes him the perfect candidate. This is too serious a situation for someone with no experience in the field. Clark has the gravitas to win.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. President Clark!
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yeah, start getting used to saying that.
President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark,
President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark
President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark
President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark
President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark, President Clark
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Remind me after Nov 7
:hi:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good thinking and writing Tom, as usual. Glad you are
on the General's side.
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. I'd vote for Clark. Pity I won't have the chance to.
If he had a forum, and the ability to speak to a national audience, and would do something as simple, direct and unavoidable as Bill Clinton did on Faux, he might attract enough attention to get the nomination. I agree he's done the groundwork (that other Democrats haven't) but nobody out in Real America knows his name.
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Texas_Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There's a lot of people ready to change that
Who? We'll have to wait and see whether he picks up the gauntlet. He's one of the few potential candidates who can say "I'm concentrating on getting Democrats elected in 06" and be believed.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree that he isn't a current front runner
And I agree that the odds collectively favor another Democrat getting the nomination. But really, it is only September of 2006. At this point in the cycle last time around virtually no one knew who Howard Dean was, yet he sure as hell managed to gain a national audience and became our front runner for a considerable period of time. Clark offers the Democratic Party some fairly unique assets that potentially set him apart from other possible candidates. It is far too early to buy into conventional wisdom about who our likely nominee will be. Clark has a lot of activists pulling for him, and that is increasingly becoming an important factor. Especially when that support is added to the support Clark is now winning on the ground impressing important local Democrats in battle field districts around the country while he campaigns in them on behalf of their candidates.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. I've said this in the Clark forum.
If Clark doesn't run in '08, I might just drop out of politics. There aren't any other Democrats who stack up, with the exception of Al Gore, who has said several times that he isn't running.

Who are they going to run? Hillary? Kerry? I see the nation as being ready to quit on democracy after two more years of Bush. We need a candidate who can revitalize America, not just another run-of-the-mill politician.

Seriously, I'm just about ready to quit. Someone needs to give me a reason not to, because it certainly seems like the Democrats quit back in 2001. Another victory by the Repugs in Nov (yes, I do see it happening) will be lethal to this country and continue the long-term decline of America. We need a fucking leader. Wesley Clark is our last best hope for salvaging this nation.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. If this is the Clark forum where do I get off?
Now is not the time to enjoin the military (however remote) with elective politics.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Let's agree to disagree for now
I don't regard Wes Clark as an institution, I regard him as an individual of uncommon skill and integrity, but we obviously regard the significance of his prior career to politics differently. I hope you will see fit to support Wes Clark for President if he does become the Democratic nominee.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. He won't be the D nomineee but I'm agreeable to agreeing to disagree.
Agreed?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Probably, lol. You didn't say if you would support Clark IF somehow...
...Clark got our nomination. But that is a bridge I can certainly say your don't have to cross now in the abstract, especially since you think it so unlikely you will be faced by it.

So yeah, sure. I respect you for the sincerity of your beliefs and in the larger picture we certainly are fighting on the same side.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I answer it here:
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Got it, and you have a deal. We agree to disagree. I hope...
...we all see the day sooner rather than later when Bernie or someone very much like him has a real shot of becoming President.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
50. At first I thought that was directed at me....
...as I am active duty military.

It is not the military who are threatening our republic. It is chicken-hawk civilians who have largely never served.

I'll take Clark's record of service over any number of politicians' record of power grabbing.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. Well, not actually
I have noticed some tend to count "I have no plans to run" as "I am definitely not running". I am sure it is no coincidence that these people tend to be Clark supporters. haha ;-)

Seriously, my money's on Gore. I hope to hell he runs. Not only has he run for office many times and won, he actually won the popular vote for the Presidency already. A much better bet than a someone who has never run for elective office before.

Julie
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I consider this a friendly rivalry
I would gladly support Gore if he were our nominee and I believe you would say the same for Clark. I would also support Gore over any other possible Democratic candidate I've heard of aside from Clark with only the possible exception of Feingold.

I accept that your argument raised for Gore is cogent, but I do not consider it conclusive. Gore was a sitting Vice President running against someone I strongly believed was a mediocre candidate at the time. Times change. Gore changed. The Republican nominee will be different next time also. For example I believe that Wes Clark would match up better against John McCain than Al Gore would, but you can safely say that I have my bias as you do yours. Clark and Gore are both great men who the Democratic Party is lucky to have fighting for us.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. It *is* a friendly rivalry!
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 06:16 PM by JNelson6563
I agree that Clark and Gore are great and doing much good for our Democratic cause. As much as I love Gore I do refrain from claiming he is the only guy who could win/is right for the job. I think we Dems are fortunate to have several "greats" who could be excellent candidates. Hell if Clark won the primary I'd support him and if he were to denounce the SOA for the terrorist training school that it really is, I would work pretty damn hard to get him elected.

And I must say, I have a relatively newfound respect for many of you Clarkies. The rabid, often incoherent ones I dismiss out of hand but the rest of you, I salute your determination and dedication to what you believe in. Rock on!

Cheers to determined Dems like you Tom! :toast:

Julie

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
19. If it doesn't take a Republican from the Armed Services to wield that
Edited on Wed Sep-27-06 06:00 AM by 1932
stick, why would it take a Democrat to defend the security charge?

If a bunch of chicken-hawks have convinced us that they're better on security, it doesn't necessarily require a Chief Executive who was General to counter their arguments.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
20. I don't buy this.
National security is not the flaming hot issue Republicans would like it to be, and they can't make it THE issue unless we go along with them. It's just one of many, and falls behind domestic matters like free, fair, and accurate elections, media regulation, budget, education, civil liberties, and health care. At least, it does for me.

My choices in 2000 and '04 had nothing to do with national security, and neither will my choice in '08. I'm not driven by fear, and have no "fear" buttons to push. I'm focused on domestic issues, and I sure as hell wish my party was, too.

I don't have anything against General Clark, but he's not on my list of hopefuls anywhere.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Wes Clark takes excellent, progressive stands on domestic issues
including but not limited to "free, fair, and accurate elections, media regulation, budget, education, civil liberties, and health care". I would never have supported him if he didn't.

Sometimes we at DU argue both sides of the empowerment issue. Sure, always in principle "we have the power", but does that mean to you that "we" have the power to control political discussion in this country? You say: "National security is not the flaming hot issue Republicans would like it to be, and they can't make it THE issue unless we go along with them." Which "we" are you talking about? The Democratic Party, rank and file Democrats, the American public? I'm sure you are not talking about the American media since, as you point out, media regulation is an important unresolved issue. Do you believe that the 2004 Election was close enough to steal because John Kerry and John Edwards spent too much time refuting Republican claims that George Bush had a sane foreign policy which would keep America safe?

My position as detailed above is that Democrats allow Republicans to frame the issue of National Security on their own terms by not assertively projecting our own vision of America's role in the world. We fail to explain how our vision is better suited to create conditions under which peace and in many cases cooperation between nations can prevail, keeping Americans out of wars and safer both at home and abroad. We continually are confronted by media generated "events" like "The Path to 9/11", not always on such a massive scale, but all of the time. By not being proactive, our choices then are reduced, either respond or not respond to the neocons AFTER they put us on the defensive.

We are certainly free to ignore their hammering and say instead "let's talk about what matters, domestic issues". I would rather that we so totally expose their utterly discredited vision of "national security" as the failure that it is until Republicans are begging to discuss domestic issues trying to change the subject off of their own failures.

Karl Rove is many many things, most of which are unpleasant, but one thing that all agree on is Karl Rove is not is a stupid man, and today Republicans control all three branches of government. He would not continually steer the public debate toward keeping America safe from terrorists if he did not feel AND EXPERIENCE that it helps keep the Republican Party in power.
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The King Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Clark would be great
I think Clark is probably the best shot in 2008, he offers a
great image on national security. But, he is pretty moderate
on a lot of other issues, so this worls against him...
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Wes Clark is the opposite of Hillary Clinton in public perceptions
The general public, those who are not actually that familiar with Hillary's views, widely assume her to be much more Liberal than she actually is. With Wes it works the other way. The general public who are not that familiar with his views assume that Wes Clark is much more of a moderate on issues than he actually is. In truth Wes Clark is quite Liberal and is not afraid to say so. It is just the fact that he chose to make his career defending our nation that trips up most people's first assumptions about him, which allows him to be well received as an American Patriot by mixed affiliation crowds where many would routinely tune out Democrats they view as typical "liberals" without ever hearing the message that they have to offer.
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The King Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #27
45. I didn't know Wes was really liberal
I wasn't aware that Wes is liberal, how does he compare with Gore on the issues? I think Gore is our front-runner at the moment...
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. They are largely in agreement on most issues from what I can tell
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 08:24 AM by Tom Rinaldo
For example, while Gore certainly is our clear and acknowledged leader in fighting Global Warming, Wesley Clark has shown a strong committment to it as well over a prolonged period of time, dating back to before his first run for the Presidency. He is not a Johny come lately to that issue and he wowed the audiance at Yearly Kos when he participated on the science panel there. Clark intervened before the U.S. Supreme Court also before he was a candidate for office, defending Affirmative Action at the University of Michigan. Andrew Young endorsed Clark in 2004 for President. Clark is a strong supporter of a womens right to choose. Many nuetral observers felt that Wes Clark offered the most progressive package of all for tax reforms during his 2004 campaign. When he announced it at a Press Conference, this is what he had to say:

"If Karl Rove is watching today, Karl, I want you to hear me loud and clear: I am going to provide tax cuts to ease the burdens for 31 million American families -- and lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty -- by raising the taxes on 0.1 percent of families -- those who make more than $1,000,000 a year. You don't have to read my lips, I'm saying it," Clark said.

"And if that makes me an 'old-style' Democrat, then I accept that label with pride and I dare you to come after me for it."

Clark's old 2004 web site is still archived. You should go look at the platform he ran on then:
http://www.clark04.com/issues/

And finally, here is an old DU thread I started to gather together a few other threads that provide a great introduction to Wes Clark:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x7786

P.S. Clark is also on public record saying that the United States needs to move toward a single payer health insurance system.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. You make very good points.
That's part of the trouble, lol. Seeing legitimate points from more than one perspective.

My personal bottom line is this: If I want to frame the issue of National Security, I'll do so by excising the cancer of hegemony from foreign policy, pulling my fingers out of everyone elses' pies, and putting my focus on domestic issues, including defending us from direct attack, and building community, rather than enmity, with the rest of the world. That's my vision of America's role in the world, and I think it becomes accepted by the rest of the world when they see it actually happening; the attention to home and the abstention from directing others.

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Well stated. Peace, between you and I, and to all of us n/t
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. What you fail to get
Is that, right or wrong, national security is a big issue for a very large percentage of Americans. Sure, partly that's because of Republican propaganda. But the propaganda wouldn't work so well if it weren't for political history going back to at least the Vietnam war. "Provide for the general defense" is one of the most fundamental purposes of government, and all the more so when people FEEL threatened.

In any case, it really doesn't matter why. The fact is national security IS a hot issue with voters. Maybe not "flaming hot" but definitely a show stopper. They will not vote for Democrats as long as they think we are weak on security. Anybody who says otherwise is in denial.

You are right to focus on what you think is most important. We all do. But if you choose to back a presidential candidate who doesn't inspire confidence in his or her ability to defend the nation, don't be surprised when he or she cannot get elected.

Fwiw, my main reasons for supporting Wes Clark have nothing to do with national security, but I recognize it is one of his strengths that few others come close to rivalling.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Jai speaks for me.
Nicely said Jai.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. That's like saying that national security is not
important to me, which is not true. I just don't choose to live in fear, react out of fear, make choices based in fear, or allow fear to be used as a tool to manipulate me.

I'll go far enough to say that I don't want to address the issue of national security by allowing the fear of the weak, the misinformed, or the foolish to control the agenda.

Strong words, and in case you wondered, I'm not addressing them to you, or to Clark. Just to the idea that I'm supposed to allow the fear of others to shape my choices. I realize that it's standard policy to pick a sensitive issue, hype it to heat, and ride it mercilessly to the ballot box. I just wont participate in that particular political policy, especially when it's based in fear.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
43. Agreed. Better to try to re-focus our priorities instead of continuing to
perpetuate this madness of national security mania started by the Republicans. It's PART of our world and it should be treated that way, not as the major focus it has been. It's a losing battle for the Dems to try to continue this war on terrorism nonsense because it was just a scam to begin with.

Stop letting the Republicans choose the battles.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Security is a legitimate issue. It's all about how it is defined
Edited on Thu Sep-28-06 08:07 AM by Tom Rinaldo
Clark considers Global Warming to be a national security issue for America. He considers potential outbreaks of pandemics as national security issues. Clark describes endemic third world poverty as a national security issue for America, because it breeds desperation, and destabilizes governments and can lead to massive unplanned for migrations, and yes failed States that harbor enclaves for terrorists. Clark considers building strong International institutions that the U.S. constructively participates in, and supporting rather than undermining treaties such as the Geneva Accords, as advancing, not hindering, our National Security.

And though I wish it were otherwise, human nature has not changed dramatically since the mid 20th century when Franco and Mussolini and Hitler and Stalin were in all of their glory. Petty and not so petty tyrants can still emerge who are willing to use or threaten to use force to gain the spoils of war. We saw that recently during Clinton's Presidency inside Europe in Yugoslavia. We don't even have to look to the Middle East for that, although Hussein was proved to be perfectly capable of invading his neighbors in his heyday also. I know that you are not arguing against this point, but it's not just the United States that cares about National Security. Virtually all Nation States maintain standing Armies, including Sweden and Switzerland. It's pretty damn hard wired and so, yes, it is easy to manipulate people's fears around security.

But never in America has one political party been so calculating about it, and so partisan with it, over as prolonged a period of time as today's Republican Party. I say let's drive a stake through the heart of that sucker and expose the fraud. Educate the public about what it will really take for Americans to be safe at home during the 21st Century. Bring on that debate because we can win it.

We are LESS safe, not MORE safe, under neocon rule. Like I said above, it's not mostly Clark's uniform that gives him an advantage here, it is his knowledge and experience and ability to articulate the real issues in ways that even a FOX viewer can understand, that is invaluable for us Democrats who believe the United States can live in Peace with the world under sound sane leadership. But I do not close my eyes to the fact that Clark being a Four Star General gives him a tactical advantage during such a debate, over whoever the Republicans next run.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
35. It actually equals 6.
Call me crazy.

Military + Character (in a good way) + Ego = Clark

I failed Election math. :cry:
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Ego in a good way too though
No one runs for President (or can handle the job if they win) without a strong Ego. We already agreed to disagree on the military part.

I think it was our nation that really failed Election math when Bush somehow got to occupy the White House for two terms.
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democrat in Tallahassee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. John Edwards in 08
Just got back from a lecture here in Tallahassee by one of the best political analysts in Florida.

He makes a convincing argument that we need a southern candidate that can win the Dixiecrats on N Florida.

I think Edwards fits the bill much better than Clark evne though I like Clark and he is from Arkansas.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. If he is our nominee I certainly will campaign hard for him
But like you say Clark is from Arkansas and he too is able to appeal to Dixiecrats. Have you been reading any of the coverage of Clark's current swing through Kentucky, or watched any of the videos from there? Plus Clark has the National Security chops that my OP dicsusses. Edwards simply can't match Clark on that, because he didn't devote a lifetime to defending our country.

But of course John Edwards offers strengths of his own. All of the leading Democrats under consideration do. I appreciate that the discussion on this thread has been respectful toward all of the Democrats folks have raised. That is as it should be, especially now when we all need to pull together and concentrate on retaking Congress.
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imlost Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
41. Viva Tom and Viva Clark.
Very nice piece. I was behind him in 04 and will continue to be with him.
If he chooses not to run I will still be with him. He is a great man with a great heart.
The only time a met him, I found him to be real.

The wonder about him is that he is much more then National Security.

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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-28-06 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
47. Clark was my choice in `04
and I hope to support him in `08. What convinced me was not his military career, but his positions on domestic issues and his amazing understanding of world affairs. Speaks four languages, Rhodes Scholar, rags-to-riches biography, the whole nine yards. He`s the best we ahve.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
49. Clark's commitment....
...to the preservation of our republic under the slings and arrows of the Republican party is what sells me. Very few have been as outspoken about the assaults on the Constitution as he has.
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