Jim Wallis vs. Ralph Reed: A discussion actually worth your valuable time

[wyldwolf]

Dialogue is fascinating. Comments even more so. 6 or 7 entries worth.

http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/

[papau]

1. The only real RW objection to Wallis's analysis is that he forgot abortion

Thanks for posting this - it is a great site and it was an interesting discussion.

HIS THREE ISSUES FOR THOSE THAT BELIEVE IN GOD:

First, issues that relate to God´s world - we are given to the earth as caretakers and stewards, and we depend on the earth for our survival, so this relationship is essential. This means that we must intervene when human beings through greed or ignorance damage the earth.

Second, issues relating to justice, especially for the poor. The gap between rich and poor in our world is growing at an alarming rate, and it´s easy to imagine a lot of nightmare scenarios resulting. So we need to narrow this gap and improve the lives of the billions who are living in desperate need while others live in extreme luxury.

Third, issues relating to war. The growth of religious, ethnic, political, and racial hatred contradicts and conflicts with the message of Jesus, which is a call to reconciliation with God and neighbor and enemy.


THE "LIBERAL" RESPONSE: Brian McLaren is standing up for the values reflected in the teachings of Jesus. We need more evangelicals speaking up for the "least of these" (defined in Matthew 25:35-46 as prisoners, the poor and hungry).

McLaren and other progressive evangelicals call us to remember "the things which make for peace." Jesus says nothing about abortion but does teach his followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:44). I am so grateful that McLaren and other progressive evangelicals are broadening our contemporary values conversation. Everything that McLaren mentioned --- stewardship of creation, concern for the poor, and the pursuit of peace --- are values rooted in Holy Scripture and Christian Tradition.

I've never heard Jim Wallis or Brian McLaren say that killing babies is "right" or that capital punishment is "right." What I've heard them say is we have huge moral issues at stake that involve way more than those 2 issues.

Humility: Psalms 2 5: 9 The humble He guides in justice, And the humble He teaches His way.

Welcome: Matthew 10:40 He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

Grace: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Women suffered tremendously when abortion was illegal. In my opinion abortion should be safe, legal and rare. Being pro-life to me means that I must stand up against the genocide in the Sudan, against war anywhere, and against the death penalty. Being pro-life means standing up for programs that fight poverty, provide health care and strengthen working families.

Illegal abortions are a major cause of death among mothers in Latin America --- according to the World Health Organization. Hundreds of thousands of women die or are seriously injured due to illegal abortions. According to a BBC report "In Peru alone, an estimated 50,000 women a year either die or suffer serious complications after an illegal abortion."

I would also add that herbal abortion techniques go back centuries, even pre-Jesus. Don't you think that as part of his mission, directly representing the Father, he might have mentioned it? Or are we willing to drop a significant omni from our theological repertoire: omniscience. And I'm sorry, friend, but the OT arguments seem as strawmen to me. You can no more extrapolate from Psalm 139 that abortion is wrong as you can extrapolate from Genesis 1 that Christians should, in light of the coming of the second Adam, be vegetarians just as it was before sin entered the world. Further, Levitical codes citing the price to be paid for a man killing a pregnant woman causing the unborn to die have to do with property rights, not a Western sense of individualization.

THE FUNDI RESPONSE:

A "justice" agenda that ignores the shedding of innocent blood (i.e. the killing of unborn babies for convenience) is a sham.

Why ignore abortion, the death penalty, etc.? Is avoiding war really the only life issue worthy of consideration?

The Protestant inability to acknowledge that *all* life issues are important - war AND abortion AND the death penalty AND etc. - is enough to make a guy Catholic.

Surely, helpless unborn babies are the least of "the least of these."

I think the most important theme from a Biblical, as well as a political, social, cultural, etc. standpoint, is to uphold both the existence and the quality of each life. This covers everything from war to abortion and I just can't get my head around why this combination of stances, while so logical, seems so controversial.

Abortion was scarcely an issue in Jesus' day. The Bible says plenty about turning a blind eye to the slaughter of the innocent. I am pro-life yet I do not believe that we can end abortion with legislation. We can't end it, but we can drastically reduce it, as Poland has:

http://www.ortl.org/publications/articles.php?articleID=88
Women suffered tremendously when abortion was illegal(?)

What's your evidence for this? Check out:

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/sfl/illegbeck.htm

"abortion should be safe, legal and rare" This Democrat mantra rings hollow when they stridently oppose even the most modest abortion restrictions, such as:

banning partial birth abortion
informed consent (providing information about fetal development, abortion methods, risks, and alternatives)
parental notification for minors
barring tax-funded abortions
regulating abortion clinics like other ambulatory surgical centers