Here's my response to the RW crowing about a new record for the Dow

[Richardo]

"It's about time."

The RW world is gleefully anticipating a record close for the DJIA any day now. They'll spin it as vindication of Bush's brilliant tax cuts (weren't those like 3-5 years ago?)

My response will include the three words above and a follow up: "Didn't we have a new record for the Dow about every week in the 90s? Or was it every day there for awhile?"

Really, we've got to take this 'victory' away from them.

[BOSSHOG]

1. My mutual fund statements

were insane in the late 90's. An average of 85% return for 98 and 99. Six years to break a record. I don't see the cause for joy nor is it reflected in my statements over the past 6 years. But the gop knows its base, the ignorant masses who have no desire to know anything they just like to believe stuff and are way too proud to admit they are betting on a loser.

[Richardo]

2. Here's a cool table. Use it to confound your RW adversaries.

http://www.finfacts.com/Private/curency/djones.htm

The last threshhold broken was 11,700 on 1/14/2000. I forget, who was President then?

[BOSSHOG]

9. We were building a home at that time

For tax reasons, I waited till after the first of the year to cash in our mutual funds which damned near paid for our new house. We closed on 28 January 2000. I only wish I had cashed in more. The "volatile" part of our portfolio has been relatively flat ever since.

Peace, Prosperity and Head. I'll drink to that.

[Ian David]

3. Go interview people in trailer parks, public housing, unemployment lines..

and ask them how proud they are of the pResident's booming economy.

Ask them how they intend to celebrate their new-found prosperity as the Dow recovers to Near-Clintonian levels.

[trogdor]

16. The choco ration has been increased to 30 grammes.

They all read 1984, but not as a cautionary tale, rather as a textbook.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. How does this affect any average person?

Answer: It doesn't, in any substantive manner. The disconnect between Wall Street and Main Street has never been more apparent and glaring.

[Richardo]

5. Well, anyone who has a 401-K or IRA is affected to some degree

See BOSSHOG's post above. My retirement 401-K has only been growing from my contributions (well, not really, but it seems like it.)

[RebelOne]

19. Yes, it definitely affects me as I have a 401K and an IRA.

And I'm trying to build up enough money to retire soon.

[conscious evolution]

34. on the nose

I always ask freeptards who brag about their portfolios "how long could you live off the dividends alone that your stock pays?"

[zbdent]

6. Maybe the market is recognizing that the Repukes are losing

ground ... and maybe the market likes it ...

[Drifter]

17. That is exactly it ....

If look at the point at which the DOW started to stumble, it was when Gore's election was in doubt.

Cheers
Drifter

[swag]

7. Another way of looking at it is that the broad US stock market,

measured by the S&P 500 (a much better measure than the price-weighted, Dow Industrial average of only 30 stocks), which closed at 1336.50, is still below its level of 1,342.90, where it was when George W. Bush took office. Even factoring in the S&P's annual dividend yield of 1.8% in returns, investors in US stocks during the Bush administrations have failed miserably to even match the rate of inflation.

The stock market has historically done much better under Democratic administrations than under Republican administrations, as Prof. Jeremy Siegel himself a Republican booster (if only for his precious dividend tax cut), , showed in the last edition of Stocks for the Long Run.

Right-wingers have nothing to crow about with regard to the level of US stock market.

[Richardo]

10. Thanks, swag.

:thumbsup:

The data on the S&P is aces!

[swag]

15. Anything for you, Mr. O

And you're absolutely right, today's Dow "record" is tomorrow's lost dream, particularly for that common brand of investor who loves to buy at the top and sell at the bottom.

Some of the posts about the quest for corporate profit driving the American middle class out of existence in this thread are really good. US companies can only keep firing their customers for so long.

[ClintonTyree]

8. And when the companies that make up the Dow.........

have cut every last employee they possibly can, have outsourced every American job so they can "increase shareholder value".......then what? :shrug: We've pretty much reached that point already. There is no way to sustain these profit margins, there isn't anything else to cut, with the possible exception of management compensation, but we'll never see that happen. So where does the market go from here?
The Stock Market has been living off of "irrational exuberance" for some time now. Sooner or later the truth will reveal itself, it can't be hidden forever. Then what? :shrug: I think it's quite plain to see what's coming down the road. Bush is banking on being out of office by the time the bills come due but I wouldn't bank on it. I give this dog and pony show a year, at most, until the TRUE financial condition of our country is finally discovered. Then, all bets are off.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

11. No better example of your thesis exists...

Than the news from AT&T that they are bring back 2000+ jobs in customer support from India, to the US. Outsourcing to India has, according to my friends in IT, been a nightmare. Language problems and the resultant understanding problems that arise from said language problems, incredibly shoddy work product, time zone problems...I could go on.

Make no mistake: AT&T is a bellweather in this. You will be seeing this material again.

[leesa]

12. This is what I don't understand. So the stocks are up...what does this

mean when jobs are cut, businesses are moved oversease to cut expenses? It is just measuring lower overhead, isn't it?

[Richardo]

14. In a way. It's measuring the desirability of the companies to investors

...and investors like companies with big profit margins.

[Drifter]

13. Indeed ...

It has taken 6 years to get back to the point where Clinton left it.

Wow ... that IS something to be proud of.

Cheers
Drifter

[Tesha]

30. Actually, adjusted for inflation, it's got a ways to go yet. (NT)

[Toots]

18. Virtually every day Clinton was in office there was a new record

It has taken Bush* almost six years just to get the Dow back where it was when he took office..and the only reason is people are starting to understand the GOP is almost out of there so optimism is once more beginning to show up.

[swag]

20. Atrios points us to this, which completely debunks the tax-cut bullshit:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/27/dow-jones-tax-cuts/

A 2005 study by four Federal Reserve Board economists
“fail[ed] to find much, if any, imprint of the dividend tax
cut news on the value of the aggregate stock market.”
According to a Wall Street Journal article, the study
concluded that Bush’s tax cuts were “a dud when it came to
boosting the stock market.” 

– Analysts at the Tax Policy Center found that the link
between capital gains tax rates and stock market growth is
“weak” and capital gains have historically risen with “little
apparent effect on the stock market.”

[skipos]

21. Dem presidents are historically better for the market and the economy

Forbes has some ratings of ecomonic properity that verify this.

"Not surprisingly, Bill Clinton tops the magazine's prosperity chart. He is followed by two other Democrats – Johnson and Kennedy. The first Republican to show up is Reagan, who comes in fourth. No Democrat finishes lower than seventh (Truman), and the last three spots are all occupied by Republicans (Nixon, Eisenhower and George H.W. Bush). On a scale of one to eleven (one being Bill Clinton, eleven being the elder Bush), Democrats have an average ranking of 3.8, Republicans of 7.8."

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=131769

That probably explains why democrats are better for the stock market too.

DOW SINCE 1901
Republican years Avg. annual change 6.9%
Democratic years Avg. annual change 13.3%
Source: Stock Trader's Almanac 2005

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/krantz/2005-12-02-presidents_x.htm

[Richardo]

22. "one to eleven"

So 'Spinal Tap' :rofl:

Nigel: "Yes, but Clinton is 11."

[Richardo]

24. Great bookmarks. Thanks skipos

:patriot:

[WCGreen]

23. It took five and a half years to get there....

In the meantime, inflation has eaten at that "benchmark" to the tune of 19%....

So to be just even with inflation, the Dow should be at 13,900 or there abouts....

Don't get started on the S&P or the NASDAQ....

But CNBC is plugging this almost as if Terril Owens had tried to commit suicide...

[MadHound]

25. One thing to point out is that the Dow is an imperfect snapshot

The Dow Jones Industrial Average is composed of thirty, large multinational "blue chip" companies. The Dow is not a good indicator of how the economy overall is doing, just how those thirty, large rich companies are doing. And with Bushco in office, cutting taxes, rewarding no bid contracts, etc. etc., times have indeed good for Dow members.

However, if you look at a much broader picture, we're not doing well. The S&P 500, or the Russel 1000 presents such a broad picture, as does the NASDAQ. And looking at those indexes, you quickly see that they're not doing near as well. No records being broken there, for the most part they're remaining pretty flat.

Oh, and another thing to point out. The Dow Jones has been, and most likely still is, manipulated on a regular basis in order to prevent its collapse. The Plunge Protection Team, set up under Reagan is just but one example<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunge_Protection_Team>

[Richardo]

27. Good stuff. But, I like to argue on their terms.

Want to look at the DJIA? Fine. It rocked during the 90s and it took most of a decade to hit a new high since the last one in 2000. Again, it's about time.

[AX10]

26. This is a good sign of things to come if they continue in this direction.

[wicket]

28. It's taken them 5 years to get it back to where it was when Clinton was...

...in office. PATHETIC! Certainly nothing to be crowing about.

[AtomicKitten]

29. in dealing with the 1990s

one must subtract 5,000 points just cuz it's Clinton
doncha know?

[chat_noir]

31. a bit of history

Sunday, October 13, 1929
STOCK PRICES WILL STAY AT HIGH LEVEL FOR YEARS TO COME, SAYS OHIO ECONOMIST

Wednesday, October 16, 1929
FISHER SEES STOCKS PERMANENTLY HIGH
Yale Economist Tells Purchasing Agents Increased Earnings Justify Rise

Tuesday, October 22, 1929
FISHER SAYS PRICES OF STOCKS ARE LOW

Wednesday, October 23, 1929
STOCKS GAIN SHARPLY BUT SLIP NEAR CLOSE
Vigorous Recovery Marks Most of Day and Many Issues Show Net Advances

http://tinyurl.com/mpwkc

[Richardo]

32. :D

Then everything's fine.

Just like we were the safest we ever were on September 10, 2001. After all, it had been more than five years since the last terror attack on US soil.

Wait a minute.

[Richardo]

33. *kick* since this has now happened...

:kick: