Here's another take on the Dems in the House who voted for torture .....

[Stinky The Clown]

..... a 'take' that has to start with a personal statement:

I am as saddened, appalled, and just plain pissed off as anyone about this.

As I consider the terrible votes made by some Democrats on this awful bill, I'm made to wonder why they voted as they did. What possible reasons might there be?

Well .... here's what comes to mind.

1 - They support Bush and want him to get away with his crimes. I find it hard to believe any of them felt this ... but you never know.

2 - They honestly believe the bill will further our 'national interests' with respect to the 'War on Terror®'.

3 - They don't think the bill is right but fear being called soft in the War on Terror® by their opponent in the upcoming midterm. Further, they knew it would pass with even a 100% Democratic 'no' vote, so they see no downside.

I know none of these are good reasons for those of us who live in this neighborhood (DU/the left). But there's little we can do about it.

These people will all get votes from most all of us come election day.

The fact is, there's virtually nothing we can do ...... really. It was the same with the bankruptcy bill, the confirmation of the Nazi supremes, the tax cuts, and every other shitty bill (which would be MOST of what came out of this Congress) they've put up for a vote. Everything's been a slam dunk for them. Again, even with a 100% Democratic 'no' vote, the bills would all have passed.

I kinda think that for most who voted in favor of this, it was pure political calculation in the face of a reelection campaign.

That's not a good reason, but it has always been this way.

And it will probably *always* be this way.

Our only hope to overturn this (if it passes the Senate and the Supremes) is a Democratic Congress in 06 and a Democratic president in 08.

Like it or not, that's all we have. Hate this vote or not, we have little choice than to vote for these people.

Take this NOT in ANY way as condoning this vote. Take it simply as a statement of reality.

Reality bites, sometimes, but it is what it is.

[Richard D]

1. Three is probably it, combined with

a total lack of spine.

[fooj]

2. Blackmail DEFINITELY comes into play here...

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Care to expand on that?

[soothsayer]

5. The real purpose for unfettered wiretapping:getting the goods on

the opposition

[wtmusic]

3. Criticism of our own is healthy

and will not cost us one vote.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. So you are willing to have two more years, possibly more...

...of the same shit we have had for the past 5?! :puke:

[Benhurst]

13. As if it matters any more. The November elections will be stolen.

Something stinks in America, and it itsn't the cheese.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. It does matter!

If you adopt that attitude, then Rove and his minions have done their job!

I agree that something stinks in America and what is needed is an air freshener in the form of a Democratic House and/or Senate!

[Benhurst]

33. The November elections will be stolen just as have been the

last three national elections; but this time it will be a cakewalk for the Bush Crime Family, thanks to the $3 Billion spent for computer voting. The stakes are too high. They cannot, will not, allow the opposition to win.

I shall vote, as I have in every national and almost every local election since 1966, but if all goes as I fear, it will be for the last time.

Any hopes for reform will by necessity move to the streets. The ballot will no longer be an engine for change.

Rove and his minions have already won. The cowardly and despicable actions taken by Congress (and, yes, many Democrats) this week leave the American people with fewer rights than any English-speaking people have had since Britain was ruled by the Romans.

Land of the Free? Home of the Brave? Yeah. Sure.

The stench wafting through America is that of the rotting Republic.

[bowens43]

22. So we should hand over congreess to the repugs?

[Tesha]

25. We already did, thanks to Democrats who behave like Repugs.

Maybe it's time to allow those Democrats to finally be defeated.

Tesha

[Tesha]

19. Seems to me, based on past performance, we'll have more of the same

Seems to me, based on past performance, we'll have more of the same
shit anyway, even if the Dems capture nominal control of one house
or the other.

If they had any brass, they'd have been doing a lot more than they're
doing, even from their minority position. What makes you think they'll
magically acquire guts or principles just by virtue of having a (say)
three seat majority in the House? The Bush-enabling DINOs will still
be Bush-enabling DINOs.

Tesha

[saracat]

24. It seems to me that you are NO Democrat. BTW, what are you doing to make

anything better? Are you running for office? Are you campaiging for Democrats? What is your contribution other than internet whining about how "terrible" the Democrats are?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

36. And anyone who encourages others NOT to vote Democratic on

a Democratic Board deserves to be insulted. And I notice you never answered the question about your own efforts to make a difference. Could that be because, other than internet ranting, you aren't doing anything? I can understand yoursdisatifation with some of these DEms but it is wrong to take it out on all those good hardworking Dems by discouraging voter turnout, and that is what you are doing.If people are encourged to just "forget " about voting do you even have any concept of the down line this would effect? People won't just go to the polls and NOT vote Dem for a particular Congress person or Senator, they won't vote at all. None of us deserve this. This is why I am angry.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. I'm not arguing .......

..... but what about the next 'horrible' vote with a whole new cast of characters?

In another thread, someone suggested we might want to know 'why' they voted this way on this bill and get to them on that specific reason.

[saracat]

15. Thank you.This wins the award for the stupidest post ever!

I am sooo glad you think it is OK for the Republicans to win this year! I am sooo glad that your vengeance is more important than the fate of the nation for the next three years. Grow up.We don't get "perfectt" legislators and politics is not just about idealism. Politics is about winning because only is we win do we have a voice.I shudder to think this kind of so called "thinking " could influence anyone.This is "Democratic " Underground and we ought to be working to "elect" Democrats not planning on overthrowing them. Your comments are outrageous!

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Bravo!

:applause:

Seems to be many a "nose cutter" out and about today!

[Tesha]

23. No, I just want Democrats to control for the next 50 years, not...

No, I just want Democrats to control for 50 years, not two years.
And I'm willing to wait a few more years before the fifty-year-
reign starts.

Tesha

[Behind the Aegis]

29. And this will come about how?

Given the direction this country is headed, and has been, can we really afford ANOTHER two years of the same shit?!

[Tesha]

30. You can't avoid it.

> ...can we really afford ANOTHER two years of the same shit?!

You can't avoid it. Part of the reason we're in the shit we're
in is that Democrats have not had a coherent message. Are we
opposed to the USA PATRIOT Act? A handful were, the rest were
too scared of being branded "soft on terra". Are we in favor
of full rights for women? Most Democrats are, but a significant
minority or afraid of being branded "baby killers" or "pussy
whipped". Are we in favor of full rights for gays? Hell no,
although we'll mumble a few words about "civil unions" as if
that will appease the gays while not appalling the homophobes.
Are we against torture? Well, most are, but a significant
minority...

I'm of the opinion that it's time for Democrats to proudly
reclaim the mantle of standing for Democratic Principles,
unabridged and unambiguously.

And if some of our Democratic officials can't stand to do
that, then it's time to make them unofficials. For the
greater, longer term good of both our nation and our party.

Because, as I said, right now we're not doing any good at
holding back the tidal wave of shit.

Tesha

[saracat]

35. "You can't avoid it' ? How dare you?

Maybe you have a problem retaking the house and the Senate but I don't .We certainly CAN avoid it. Pessimists and naysayers such as yourself are the only obstacles we face.

[Tesha]

49. Even if you retake one house or the other, Democrats won't change...

Even if you retake one house or the other, Democrats won't change
their stripes overnight. Today, they're very much in "go along to
get along" mode with the Bush administration; even when they
*COULD* have acted like an opposition, they didn't.

Tesha

[saracat]

50. So why are you on a Democratic bullentin board if you think the party

is worthless and I notice you never answered what you are doing to make the party ( I suppose that is because you aren't a Democrat, or aren't helping to make us strond because we are never going to "change our stripes" and vote the way you think we should)better other than bitching and encouraging folks to vote against Denms so "Next time' they can get a candidate ideologically "pure' enough to meet your standards.

[Tesha]

55. Don't attempt to put words in my mouth. (NT)

[Tesha]

20. Thanks for your support.

Now propose *YOUR* plan to get some actual Democrats into office.
And be specific, lest some knee-jerking DUer brand it "stupidest
post ever".

Tesha

[Le Taz Hot]

31. Can *I* answer that?

We're supposed to shut up and vote because they have a "D" next to their name. Voted for the IRW? Doesn't matter. Shut and and vote "D." Voted to torture other human beings in our name? Doesn't matter. Shut up and vote "D." No spine? No principles? Corporate whore? Shut up and vote "D." Be a good Ger. . . er, patriotic Democrat and vote Dem! No matter what. I'm sick to my stomach with all these rah rah's who put party before principle and yes, even morals.

[saracat]

39. Hanging together and voting got the GOP elected.It would have gotten us

elected too but many Dems don't vote.Our voter turnout is abysmal.And the GOP vote for their nominees no matter what. That is part of what being a member of a party is about. You can criticize but you do NOT act against your own. If you do you should re register.
Precinct Committee persons take an oath not to support the other party. Democrats who are not PC's should follow similar rules. This is exactly what is wrong with Lieberman and Zell Miller. But I don't hear anyone defending them. And advocating not voting for Dems is exactly the same as what those two did .

[bowens43]

28. Good plan!

Let's make sure that the party that voted overwhelmingly against this bill doesn't control congress and the party that voted overwhelmingly for it does. Let's give bush his mandate from god!

What a great plan let's purposely give bush free reign so that maybe we can win in 2008!

I'm sure that will be great comfort to the hundreds of soldiers and thousands of civilians who will die in Iraq in the next two years!

Why didn't I think of that?

[katsy]

7. k & r... however,

I believe the bankruptcy bill would have failed if all the Democrats opposed it. That really burns me.

On the rest... you're right. There's no choice.

I want the Democrats to win. Torture has crossed a line with me and there's no way to put an end to it without winning the house and/or senate and the presidency in '08.

Just don't be surprised if you see me venting otherwise here. I'm ashamed this is where we are today. With twin 5 year olds, I better think about tomorrow.

Rambling... sorry... conflicted & angry.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. I've got three in the 'military sweet spot' ages ......

... I know *exactly* what you mean.

I know none of my kids would volunteer to support this shitassed war, but if we get a draft (and it could easily come soon) they're all three quite vulnerable.

[katsy]

14. Understood.

:cry: :hug: :cry:

[Virginia Dare]

8. Political motivation...

pure and simple. It's a pisser, but they're politicians afterall, and it's pretty unrealistic for us to expect otherwise from them as a whole.

I'm not gloom and dooming it yet, I think if we can make some significant gains in November, we can start to turn this thing around.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[ClintonTyree]

11. Unfortunately.........

you're correct. Almost every Democrat is thinking about their re-election bid and they're scared of being labeled "soft on terror" if they vote against it. That's exactly why Bush has been getting away with murder, literally, and will continue to do so until he's finally finished his second term.

This entire fiasco, starting with 9/11, has played right into the hands of the Neo-Cons. They couldn't have scripted it any better if they tried. I'm inclined to believe that they DID script it, but that's another story.

There isn't a damned thing we can do about it as long as we have an electorate that isn't paying attention or just doesn't give a damn. It won't stop me from trying though, I care too much. That's the curse of the Progressive: empathy. It's something Republicans are never burdened by.

[enough already]

17. The ones with balls could filibuster

Therefore, there will be no filibuster.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. Fillibuster is in the Senate.

This vote was in the House.

[bowens43]

21. You're right.

34 Democrats voted for this. 219 Republicans voted for this.

Most these Republicans had previously voted for an even worse version of this bill.

Who do we want to control the House? The party that had 34 vote in favor or the party that had 219 vote in favor.

Anyone who doesn't vote for the Democratic candidate or doesn't vote at all is essentially voting for the party that overwhelmingly supports torture.

To empower the party that actually believes in torture to punish the few Democrats who voted for this would be a huge mistake.

[GeorgeGist]

32. For me there are more important things ...

than politics; like listening to my soul. I wish I knew if the House Dems, who supported this bill, were tortured into it. But, fortunately, I won't have the chance to vote for any of them.

[Vinca]

34. This entire fiasco in both the House and Senate has left me

depressed and ashamed to be an American. How the hell has this happened to our country? Don't they understand what they're doing? This bill allows legal, resident aliens to be plucked off our streets and disappeared. It allows tourists in our country from other lands to be plucked from their hotels and disappeared. This is banana republic, Baby Doc, Idi Amin stuff. Their POS bill assumes anyone taken into custody is an "enemy combatant." Just like that poor Canadian citizen who was held for a year, tortured and finally let go because he was as innocent as he claimed. Sometimes I wish I was a sheeple with my head planted firmly up my ass, not knowing what was going on and not caring.

[brazil]

43. Not only that...

...it allows American citizens to be plucked off the streets and disappeared, too. Because once they pluck you, you have no way to prove whether you're a citizen or not. The "compromise" bill conveniently eliminated that.

[AtomicKitten]

37. IMO it's yet another GOP carefully orchestrated vote.

to:

1) Try to get the Dems on record so they can paint them weak on terror.
2) Try to absolve Junior retroactively for war crimes.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. Of ***course*** it was ......

..... with this crowd, ***everything*** is about politics and power.

[AtomicKitten]

41. you had it covered in the OP

excellent analysis BTW; I was just echoing points that resonate with me

[NMDemDist2]

40. get thee to the Greatest Page and don your flame suit

DU doesn't seem to be in a pragmatic mood today

nor am I

November is our only hope

The only thing that gives me the slightest hope is to remember our country has done insane things before and come back.

Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus

FDR opened interment camps

We can and will reverse this in '07

I hope..... :scared:

[Solon]

42. There is only one word for those who voted for torture: Criminals...

Look all those other bills were bad, but at least they didn't sanction criminal activity that is in flagrant violation of international laws that we are signatories to. Its one thing to see the Executive Branch commit war crimes, and Congress bitches and moans about that, its quite another for Congress itself to actually aid in committing these war crimes.

[Tom Joad]

44. Can't we tolerate a little torture for party unity? We must be realistic

after all. What bullshit.

We should be doing all we can not only to get these clowns out of office, but to try them for war crimes.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. I share your sentiment

But I have to ask ....... what can we do?

Not arm flapping. Not flinging invective.

What, specifically, can we really do?

[wtmusic]

47. No kidding. What does it take?

Big Deal! So they voted for nuking Iran! Don't you want to WIN in November??? :crazy:

[Stinky The Clown]

48. Your rhetorical question is also a legitimate one

***Do*** you want to win in November?

Let's assume that one of the shitbirds who voted for this crap is the guy you get to vote for. Him or a hard right wacko.

Will you do a write-in for Mickey Mouse?

I'm serious. Where our party is currently powerless to stop this, we, as individuals are even more powerless ...... except to support the party that at least holds out a **hope** that this can be overturned.

[saracat]

51. Oh, please.Show a little maturity. This isn't about "torture" this is

about gaining the majority so we can prevent torture. Didn't you even NOTICE how many more Dems voted against this than for it? If we lost those seats that voted for it we couldn't ever hope to gain the majority and set the agenda, which is what counts! And could you count enough to realize that even with those 34 votes we wouldn't have stopped this? If we were the majority this wouldn't have come to a vote. Please learn how this system works before you go off on a tear. This isn't about individual votes. This is about numbers. If we had the numbers we would be in a different situation. And you want to "decrease our numbers and make it worse, because you want to argue "principal" on a vote that wouldn't have mattered anyway. Jiminy Christmas , some just don't get it.

[Tom Joad]

52. The ones who voted for it should be held accountable.

Yes, a filibuster could have stopped this. There was insufficient political will.

[Tom Joad]

54. Maturity = acquiescence to torture?

what a theory that is.

[saracat]

56. And what filibuster would you be referring to, the Senate?

Or like the doofus who earlier thought the House should have filibustered? Sorry to be snarky but I have HAD it. I don't like this vote either but we MUST get a Democratic majority to prevent them.What is so hard to understand about that? And no one said acquiesce to torture. If getting a Dem majority is acquiescence to torture for you then you ought not to be a Democrat.And if you aren't, why are you posting here? Every Democrat should be doing everything they can to get a Dem Majority so these type of votes don't happen. Sitting at your computer wailing away at DEmocrats you don't like accomplishes nothing.

[Tom Joad]

61. I only said that that the ones who voted for the bill should not be

in the Senate or House. Most of these people are Republicans.

[sarahlee]

45. History will Not Absolve Us

by mcjoan
Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 03:22:39 PM CDT

Today, the Congress has forever stained its reputation and that of the United States of America. It is now a foregone conclusion that the execrable detainee bill will be adopted without amendment. There will be no filibuster, as Democrat Senate Leader Reid agreed with Senate Leader Frist to allow a vote on the bill after dispensation of the proposed amendments debated yesterday and today. Senator Reid made a terrible tactical decision in making this agreement. These amendments had no chance of passing. They had value in highlighting the outrageousness of this bill and in thus justifying a filibuster. But without a filibuster, the exercsie was an empty one. We admire Harry Reid's leadership but, in this monumental moment, his instincts and judgment failed him. And his place in history will be marked by this terrible day.

That said, let us not forget who authored this travesty; who stands for torture, for a dictatorial Presidency and against the Constitution and the rule of law--the Rubber Stamp Republican Congress. The David Broders of the world exhult at the "independence" of such cowards as McCain, Warner, Graham and Dewine. But this is a farce. The votes on habeas corpus, the President's power to arbitraily define torture and to detain indefinitely--merely on his word, without judicial recourse--anyone, including, American citizens, show these men to be the rankest of cowards--and the worst kind too. For they pretend to be otherwise. And the Broders of the world, the immoral and amoral Beltway Establishment, pretend it is true.

To their credit, the vast majority of Democratic legislators stood against torture, with their words and their votes. And history will remember that. But the Democratic Senators did not fight to the end, and that too history will remember.

Senator Barack Obama eloquently stated today:

I may have only been in this body for a short while, but I am not naive to the political considerations that go along with many of the decisions we make here. I realize that soon, we will adjourn for the fall, and the campaigning will begin in earnest. And there will be 30-second attack ads and negative mail pieces, and we will be called everything from cut-and-run quitters to Defeatocrats to people who care more about the rights of terrorists than the protection of Americans. And I know that the vote before us was specifically designed and timed to add more fuel to that fire.

And yet, while I know all of this, I'm still disappointed, and I'm still ashamed. Because what we're doing here today - a debate over the fundamental human rights of the accused - should be bigger than politics. This is serious.

. . . Instead of allowing this President--or any President---to decide what does and does not constitute torture, we could have left the definition up to our own laws and to the Geneva Conventions, as we would have if we passed the bill that the Armed Services committee originally offered.

Instead of detainees arriving at Guantanamo and facing a Combatant Status Review Tribunal that allows them no real chance to prove their innocence with evidence or a lawyer, we could have developed a real military system of justice that would sort out the suspected terrorists from the accidentally accused.

And instead of not just suspending, but eliminating, the right of habeas corpus--the seven century-old right of individuals to challenge the terms of their own detention, we could have given the accused one chance--one single chance--to ask the government why they are being held and what they are being charged with. . . .

But politics won today. Politics won. . .

And the disgrace of the nation will live in history. History will not absolve the President or the Congress on this shameful day. History will not absolve the United States of America. Today we betrayed our values in an exercise of cynical political calculation and blatant fear.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/28/162239/426

Pretty much how I feel....

[JeffR]

53. One Blue voter in a Red State who decides not to bother voting

as a result of this is a vote lost six weeks hence.

And today I'm so utterly appalled, I'm considering tossing the absentee ballot I received yesterday in the garbage. I haven't reached that point yet, but I'm pretty goddamned close. How many others out there have already reached that point, I have no way of knowing.

I only know what I find acceptable and unacceptable. The party has not lost me yet. But it's close, oh so fucking close...

[saracat]

57. So you would punish all your state and local candidates as well?

If people are going to react like this why should we even be bothered running?

[JeffR]

60. Didn't say that. Wouldn't do that.

But history will look on this day, as on so many days of the past half-decade, and find (some) Democrats betrayed the nation. And I'll continue to vote straight-ticket D. But I will not forget this, and I will not forgive it of those who voted with the enemy. Never.

[pnwmom]

58. Great post. Thank you. Reality does bite.

[emcguffie]

59. Well, the answer is NO great big NO to number three.

I called Menendez's office.

They basically said yes, he will vote against the bill but for the amendment. (Do I know how possible that is? No.)

I then said, because you realize any Dems who vote for this bill, you realize the people in this country do not approve of what Bush is doing, and they will do whatever they can to get those representatives who give Bush whatever he wants OUT the very first chance they can?

And he said, yes, of course, he understood that.

This was Menendez's office.

I want to go there and protest HIM. But does that mean they will designate me a whatchacallit combatant and throw me in prison and throw away the key?

I can't vote for him. Bullshit. I have voted Democratic all my life.