Is the ACLU the next best tool to fight the torture bill?

[niallmac]

Do we wait for some unknown group to mount a legal challenge or
do we verify that the ACLU is going to challenge and then support
them whatever it takes?

I am ready to send a new donation but I am not sure
if the ACLU will be the group that takes this on.

[C_U_L8R]

1. You are.

We gotta stick this torture stuff to every republican we meet.
If this is what they want.. then they gotta eat it.

They may not realize it yet but they've just handed us the perfect weapon...
and they cannot escape it. Use it often.. and hard.

[niallmac]

2. Right you are. nm

[lastknowngood]

3. You can't fight it. It states within itself that no court can interpret or

restrict the law. They have eliminated the third branch entirely.

[Peace Patriot]

4. They may be, but I think a better weapon is MASSIVE Absentee Ballot

voting this fall. We have to oust this rigged electronic voting system before we can oust this Diebold Congress and its Diebold president. What we have now are two brethren Bushite corporations--Diebold and ES&S--"counting" all the votes with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code and virtually no audit/recount controls--by conspiracy of the biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney (abetted by corporatist 'Democrats' like Christopher Dodd and Terry McAuliffe). This WAS the fascist coup--Oct. 29, 2002, when Bush signed the "Help America Vote Act"--a $3.9 billion boondoggle right into the pockets of major Bush/Cheney donors (Diebold) and rightwing fanatics (ES&S), through the fingers of corrupt or stupid election officials around the country.

If everyone who despises the Bush Junta (60% to 70% of the American people)--indeed, if everyone who opposes torture "under any circumstances" (63% of the American people--May '04)--decides to vote by Absentee Ballot this November, the reign of these diabolical machines will be OVER...such a revolt would end their power...and, with transparent, verifiable elections restored, we can begin to elect good representatives again, who truly represent this country and its people, and the will of the majority.

As to a legal remedy, the Supreme Court seemed to invite something like this from Congress. So I don't know if we could get it overturned that way. And I would prefer the people to overturn it, as is their right and duty. But first we have to remove the major obstacle to democracy--secret corporate vote tabulation. And we may have only a slim window of opportunity to do so. November may be it.

See my argumentation for MASSIVE ABSENTEE BALLOT VOTING this fall, "What do you expect from the Diebold Congress?", at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2851762

Bust the Machines--Vote by Absentee Ballot! Spread the word!

[Peace Patriot]

5. Re: the post above, that the bill forbids courts to interpret. In the Old

Republic, they just couldn't do that. It is absurd on its face. And it may get the ire of the Supreme Court up. But we have to figure that the Supreme Court probably wants an out. That's why they as much as invited Congress to redefine the law to suit Bush.

I have another idea, kind of far out. What about the states passing anti-torture laws, and embowering our AGs to arrest these fuckers (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the lot) if they step within our state. If we can restore transparent elections in SOME states, and get a firebrand or two elected AG or Governor or even Secretary of State, we might be able to put up a stink anyway--even if Bush Junta courts overturn. Right now, our state legislators are nearly as bad as Congress (all (s)elected by Diebold/ES&S), but we have a good chance of getting rid of Diebold/ES&S control of our elections at the state/local level, by means of massive Absentee Ballot voting--at least in some states. Even if the Bushites/Diebold Congress end up taking over the (s)elections--which they might do if we start making headway toward restoring transparent vote counting--they probably will just do it for federal elections, not state/local. There is also the initiative process. A long shot, I know--that any state official would be so patriotic.

I also wonder about the UN as a vehicle, on the torture issue. It looks like Venezuela is going to be seated on the Security Council next year. Hugo Chavez is a courageous guy, and game for telling the truth about the US government. Maybe the UN could so something. I know it has member countries that torture, but I don't think they are the majority. We are in blatant violation of the Geneva Conventions. Time for the world community to stand up, and condemn our rigged elections and Bushite/Diebold Congress torture and suspension of habeas corpus. Wouldn't it be ironical--after our campaigns to place sanctions on Iraq, now Iran, and others--we end up being the one under sanctions from the world community?

[niallmac]

6. I just drifted off for a second imagining a Bush thug being arrested

for crimes against the Constitution of the U.S. Soothing fantasy actually.

So far, one thing I realize I must do in November is vote STRAIGHT DEMOCRATIC TICKET.
There now is no wiggle room.

[Vidar]

7. I think UN sanctions would be a better bet.