Doh, the torture bill is not about torture!

[Don1]

Of course, it allows mild forms of torture exactly because it constricts the definition of torture. And of course it violates habeas corpus. But there is so much more to this bill. It is much worse than you think.

The new law contains a definition of unlawful enemy combatant, which is someone who "purposefully" financially or militarily supports a terrorist organization. However, it is not up to a court to decide if this someone (which incidentally, could mean YOU), meets these criteria. It is up to the President or the Secretary of Defense.

Next, those found meeting this criteria will be held in prison and tried by a military court, not a civilian court. The rules of evidence are very different and hearsay and other circumstancial evidence is allowed. Those being tried are also not innocent until found guilty, but instead either probably innocent or probably guilty.

After the military court's decision, you have 20 days to appeal to a secret court in DC. That court will only hear your case if there is some provable violation of this newly passed law. Other violations do not apply, nor do other rights.

Finally, at the end of this law is a retroactive pardon for all mild torture which may have happened starting from 9/11. Now, this is the important part and why the bill is being pushed right now into law. Once Democrats take charge of Congress, they will not be able to find anyone in the Administration guilty of war crimes for their endorsement of these mild allowable forms of torture. That is why the Republicans rushed this into law.

[soothsayer]

1. We take the hill in Nov, we undo this law, we hang the bastards

[Auntie Bush]

5. I was wondering the same thing. Can we change this law either by

fiat or by congress or the SC?

[Don1]

7. I don't know.

I think all the post-9/11 torturers are now grandfathered in, though. I don't think any future laws can take that away.

[Don1]

9. We who?

Only 3/4 of us seem to be really on board. So, we would need to not just take the Congress but take it by a huge margin so as to allow these Democrats who are weak on peace and civil rights to screw up their vote once in a while like they did today.

[kath]

12. Yes- only 34 anti-torture Dems in the Senate- we'll need a hell of a lot

more than that. (used "anti-torture" as shorthand - actually means "anti-retroactive-pardon-for-war-crimes and pro-habeus-corpus", etc)

[Don1]

13. Sounds like we should do some math.

Let's see. There are what, 45 current Democratic Senators? So, 34 is to 45 as 51 is to X. Or in algebra

34/45 = 51/X ==>
34X = 45*51 ==>
X = 45*51/34 ==>
X = 67.5 which would need to be rounded up to 68.

Well, that's not good at all.

[knowbody0]

2. Since the Geneva Conventions were signed on by

many nations, how can one nation amend it without agreement by the other countries?

Could these criminals not be held accountable by the world court?

[Don1]

6. I think it is possible.

They can hypothetically get away with it by appearing to make the Common Article 3 less ambiguous which is what they are doing now. Now, speaking of international law, you should know how it works exactly. Each heat of state agrees to it, but then afterward each nation has to pass it internally. This is the tricky part and where the GOP has found a loophole. The Geneva Conventions are part of a publicly passed law since the 40's but it has been clarified and re-clarified on a regular basis since then in our Congress. They seem to be getting away with their strategy.

[lastknowngood]

3. If the repugs allow the dems to win the cowards won't even bring

up the shrub's crimes. Forget it's over, the dems will loose seats in both houses as if it mattered. The so called dems are voting for anything the shrub and his reich want. To hell with all of them.

[Don1]

11. I was feeling this way earlier today, too. n/t

[uppityperson]

4. No repercussions, no limitations. This is the problem

The Führer can do anything he wants, so can anyone he says can. And anything they have done, they can get away with that also. I want to call it the "Dictator gets out of jail free bill", not the "torture bill" as that is too limiting.

[Don1]

14. yes and no accountability

but you know Pelosi already said that impeachment was off the table. So, really it's not like they would have tried Bush for war crimes anyway. The GOP is evil and it is a sad day when all the Democrats cannot filibuster something so disgusting.

[Old and In the Way]

8. Plenty more things to find them guilty of.

I think it's going to backfire on these guys.

[Don1]

10. Huh?

These guys are grandfathered in. How could it backfire now?