If a Dem needed to endorse the Terrorism Law to get elected, it's OK.

[keopeli]

Today's stunning legislation will go down in history as a turning point for the Republican Party. Every Democrat considering a run for President voted against it. Why? Because they want to be able to say "America doesn't endorse terrorism. We will reverse this policy." They're hoping that will be a winner.

But, this is not a national election year, which means it's a good time for Bush to pass a ridiculously tough war bill to bolster his image as emperor. Before we pass judgment on Democrats who voted to pass this tragic legislation, we must take some realities into account.

First, we must realize that no objection was going to stop this bill short of a filibuster and that decision was left to Reid. This law was destined to pass. The whole McCain protest was staged. He, and his cohorts, are running for President in 08, too, and they, like their Democratic counterparts, think this law will smell in the future. But, they couldn't afford to filibuster either, which means they were truly powerless. Otherwise, Bush would cast THEM as the obstructionists in his speech today (and don't think for a moment he wouldn't).

This legislation was deliberately delayed until right before the election so the Republicans could make a spectacle of 'weak' Democrats. They did the same thing in 02 with the Iraq War Act. But, it's all show. This legislation could just as easily have passed quietly months ago. This is simply the Republican script.

The timing also impacts the possibility of a Democrat filibuster. Have you noticed what Bush's meme was today? It was that Democrats are 'weak' on defense and are 'cut and run'. This script was written months ago. They just HOPED the Democrats would filibuster.

This Terror Law was a fait accompli.

The decision not to play into their hand must have been difficult for Reid. I sense he's a good man with a good heart.

But, the paramount focus should be on winning control. If the Democrats take control, this legislation will fade into the memory hole as the hearings and testimonials commence. THAT is the goal. It's likely that some races could be decided on this issue alone if a Democrat chose to take the heat.

As long as Republicans maintain control of Congress, NOTHING can be stopped that Bush wishes to implement. All of our screaming and ranting is for naught without the power to subpoena.

18 Democrats crossed a moral line today. I hope they did it for the right reasons. I hope they are taking a calculated political risk in the hope that they will be re-elected, whenever that day may come. These are the times that try men's souls, as Dickens might say.

I can't support a decision to endorse the suspension of habeas corpus, but I can look the other way - something I've learned to do well in the past few years. I can choose not to judge such an aberration, or at least delay my judgment. I can welcome strange bedfellows if it means winning. It's distasteful to be sure.

But at least this time, I have hope as I turn my head.

[GetTheRightVote]

1. I agree we must get control back so that bills get over turned

and get back to the business of being a great nation with great people who believe in great principles, but the waiting/looking away is so hard to do........

:kick:

[LynnTheDem]

2. No it is not "ok".

I won't turn my head, I won't excuse.

WE DO NOT ENDORSE TORTURE...or we do. It's that simple.

I'd rather lose than stoop to that level.

[keopeli]

4. With all due respect, we've already lost.

Government and military decisions are being made by people who should not be making those decisions. We have little to no recourse. They could even have taken this bill up in closed session if they had wanted to. The Republican script has us all screaming and hollering and eating our own.

I don't condone torture. I want to see this law reversed quickly. I might have to swallow some mighty bad tasting medicine to fix this nasty problem, but I'll do it.

I'm going to vote for Maria Cantwell and she hasn't even retracted her vote for the Iraq War. She did that because we are a moderate state (in spite of what others say). She did that to get elected, and I could not do that. But, I'm still voting for her because I want these rat bastards subpoenad! And if I have to sleep with Joe Lieberman to do it, then by god I'm ready! (ick!)

The election is in 5 weeks. With rampant election fraud and sacrificed civil liberties, our only hope is to get control of Congress. This means winning at the polls AND winning in the media in regions all across this diverse country.

I respect and applaud your disagreement. You most certainly have the moral high-ground in this debate. My focus, however, is on winning the election.

Peace.

[Gator306]

13. Respectfully

I think it would be better to stay faithful to the constitution with everyone saying the same thing at the same time. We need to live in reality world, and not cave in to this lowest denominator game they are playing. This is all going to fall apart for them soon, and when it does, there is going to be hell to pay for anyone who gets sucked in. The thing is, what they are doing is not working on the ground. Either we are going to take control of this and fix it, or terms will be dictated to us.

[Lochloosa]

15. Welcome to DU Gator306

:toast:

Oh yeah: Go 'Noles

[nosmokes]

5. Thank-you, lynn.

jonah goldberg among other wing nuts is also trying to justify torture by making it relative. read his op-ed piece that was in today's paper. torture is not something that is relative. it's not something that you put on and take off like a fucking tee shirt. torture leaves scars, physical, mental, emotional scars. deep and long laasting. it'sa not something that you trade like baseball cards or pogs. it's not a goddam toy, it's serious fucking shit. and every one of those people that voted for that bill ought to be ashamed to show their face in the light of the day, much less have the fucking gall to ever stand in front of a microphone and utter words like freedom, respect, liberty, justice or anything else that connotes a noble ideal. cowards of the lowest rank, every single one of them.

[rock]

12. Ditto

This is the case of it being the principle of the thing.

[yurbud]

3. that "calculated risk" has the exact opposite effect. People see it for

what it is--cowardice and opportunism.

there are times for horse trading and times for standing on principle. This one isn't even a close call.

I vote like this might have been understandable if not quite forgivable in 2002 & 2003. Today, there is simply no excuse. The Democrats should have done a party line vote and at least considered a filibuster.

At best, they are hoping the courts will overturn it, but Alito will lick any boot Bush gives him, and Roberts is only slightly less likely to give the stiff armed salute.

[keopeli]

6. politics is all about calculated risk, and its effects are always debatabl

What you say is true. This vote could backfire on a candidate. But, the reverse is also true. The vote could help, or at least prevent a negative effect for a candidate.

I, too, dislike opportunists and equivocators. Unfortunately, that's the nature of politics.

I'm not happy with the way this has played out. I wish it had been different. I wish we weren't in Iraq. I wish I wasn't being tapped at home and searched at airports and borders. Most of all, I wish Bush was called on the carpet for his colosal failures.

And it's toward that end that I am willing to simply turn the page of this Republican script and focus on eliminating the real "Bush enablers" in Congress - and it's not these Democrats. They were forced into this public spectacle by manipulative politicos.

If we want to win back the Congress, EVERY ONE of these Democrats being castigated must be re-elected.

That's what I want.

[yurbud]

20. We agree on the end result. And if it was some dumb flag amendment

or something like that, I would agree completely.

The Democrats may well have been thinking if they vote along with this stuff they can undo it later, but I remember Scott McClellan of all people using this strategy against those who finally started to criticize the Iraq War in particular. He asked how they voted on the Iraq War Resolution. It was a valid criticism. When Democrats try to undo this NSA deal and the torture one, the GOP can say, "X number of Democrats voted for this."

Additionally, it's not hard to imagine the Bushies using the NSA powers for opposition research and blackmail to neuter the best of our candidates.

The GOP has given the Democrats a lot of free advice and the Democrats seem to have taken most of it.


When Karl Rove tells them it would be smart to start knitting the rope he's going to hang them with, they will probably line up at the yarn store.

[MrCoffee]

7. It's not ok. It's inexcusable. Running on the corpse of the Constitution

is not an option.

[Eric J in MN]

8. Senator Harry Reid didn't have the votes for a filibuster.

Only 34 Senators voted agaisnt the bill.

It takes 41 to maintain a filibuster.

[HereSince1628]

9. Yes, well the issue would have been to START filibuster let the GOP

go down in history as cutting off the last chance to stop the most horrendous law passed during this Congress.

These democrats would have counseled Paul Revere not to keep his saddle handy.

[IndianaGreen]

16. So what?

Kerry took a stand on the Alito filibuster. Kerry lost, but the country won by Kerry's courageous stand, and Kerry also won a lot of respect from leftists like myself.

[LynneSin]

10. Vote democrats and take names

No one out there can give me one justification as to why I should do anything whatsoever to help get a republican elected, which by voting either 3rd party or simply not voting will help do. I'll vote for all democrats even those who supported the bill. Because even the worst example of a democrat is still better than the best example of a republican

But I will remember - Connecticut shows that we can get the candidate off the ballot (who knows what'll happen in November), this is just the beginning!

[Gator306]

11. Terror law

I disagree - you just said that it's ok to legalize torture
and overturn habeas corpus to get elected.  The ends justify
the means?  No matter what happens ever, we should stay on the
right side of these issues.
This is insane - when all of this falls apart, perspective is
not going to be kind to the people that got sucked in to this
madness.  I would hope some of them go to prison.

[IndianaGreen]

14. If it was popular to round up Jews, I suppose those Dems would vote for it

too! This is the same moral cowardice that gave us the Third Reich!

I am very happy that Democrats like Bayh, Hillary, Kerry, Feingold, and many others voted against giving Bush the power to order torturing any of us at any time he pleases.

[Tellurian]

17. The only silver lining I see here is,

Hopefully, there will be a new regime inhabiting the WH come 08'.
The passage of these new laws will assist the new administration in
holding these seditious, traitorous, defilers of all we hold dear, to
the standards they have capriciously dictated for others.

Yes, Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice subject to the same torture they've
delegated for others.

Irony is a boon and a bitch, when it comes home to roost!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I think you're on a hiding to nothing here.

Far too many DUers don't understand the concept of "being in a minority" for them to understand what you're saying, I fear.

A lot of DUers think politics is like war, and that if you lose it's because you didn't fight hard enough; rather than realising that it's like maths, and that if you're outnumbered then half-hearted and whole-hearted opposition will both achieve exactly the same thing, i.e. nothing.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

19. What else are you willing to...

"look the other way" for so Dems can get elected? Hmmm? I'd really like to know, 'cause if voting for the obscenity of a torture bill isn't enough to make you look hard at a Dem, I shudder at what you are willing to let them get away with.

[kath]

21. Hellooo - what about Harold Ford - definitely considering a run for Pres -

maybe not this go-round, but soon. And that chickenshit voted FOR torture.

(yeah, yeah, he's running for Senator. Fuck him with a rusty fork anyway)