GLBT, Be prepared to be Sister Soljahed if Kerry gets nomination

[HFishbine]

As Elanor Cliff observers:

Even many progressives say this is not an issue for which they would go to the ramparts. "It's like fiftieth on my list of priorities," says a Democratic activist, who predicts that once Kerry secures the nomination, assuming he does, he'll have to do a "Sister Souljah" appearance in front of a gay group. Sister Souljah was a relatively unknown blues singer whom Bill Clinton rebuked for her racist, anti-white lyrics at an event organized by Jesse Jackson during the 1992 campaign. Caught off guard and offended by Clinton's lecture, Jackson distanced himself from the candidate—exactly the result Clinton needed to legitimize himself as a centrist who wasn't beholden to the party's liberal interest groups.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3672153

Given Kerry's propensity to try to straddle issues and his statement the he disagrees with the MA court ruling, I won't be surprised to see this come to fruition.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dusty64]

2. Big mistake!

This would prove to be the last straw for me and I would be unable to vote for him.

[IndianaGreen]

3. Are gays going to be Kerry's Sister Souljah?

I posted about this topic a couple of days ago. I find it disturbing that Eleanor Cliff seems to have gotten wind of Kerry's electoral strategy of telling GLBTs to shut up and sit quietly in the back of the bus.

If Kerry is going to do a Clintonian triangulation on GLBTs in the hopes of turning them into a Democratic version of the Log Cabin Society, then I suggest we all boycott the election.

Are gays going to be Kerry's Sister Souljah?

Kerry is going to demagogue the gay marriage issue by pulling a Clintonian "Sister Souljah moment" in order to inoculate himself against the GOP.

Kerry's history as a Senator is not noted for political courage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=275081#275215

[murielm99]

4. He voted against DOMA.

Give him a chance. He may come through yet.

And I don't care what your orientation is, boycotting this election is unpatriotic.

[bigtree]

15. Sister Souljah

exclaimed at that conference that "Why not have a week and kill white people" and "If there are any good white people I haven't met them." That is incredibly divisive. Bill Clinton's comments were not made before a receptive white audience, rather he challenged her before individuals who would be in a position not merely to judge but to influence one of their own.

Folks don't have to agree with everything that comes from the G&L community. They have to act responsibly also; taking other's considerations into account as they expect to have their inituitives accepted and respected.

[bigtree]

48. Clinton did not demagogue Sister Souljah

Sen. Kerry is known for standing up for what he believes is right. He had political courage when he began his public career, and he has maintained that courage regardless of whether he sided with the majority or not on any particular bill or initiative. Political courage does not involve agreeing with every nuance of an issue in its ultimate defense. Courage involves maintaining your principles while at the same time striving for compromise and reconciliation. These issues will evolve in that atmosphere of compromise. All sides will be challenged to maintain their principles as we move to protect rights and privileges.

edit: dupe heading

[markus]

5. I'm not GLBT, and should defer to their view on this

However, when most major corporations in America have adopted gender-blind domestic partnership benefits arrangements, I have to think that the majority of Americans would support civil unions.

Backing down on this is just another instance of letting the GOP define the debate, and fighting on their terms. If this continues, then the Democratic Party--and possibly the nation--will be lost to a generattion of bigotry and rapine by the GOP unprecedented in our history.

I think the MA Supreme Court did the GLBT community a grave disservice by giving the GOP the "Gay Marriage" headlines they wanted, and the straw man of government thugs forcing gay marriages in churchs.

[dsc]

6. I really hope this doesn't happen

but it may well. In some respect gays have to look in the mirror on this (at least the million or so who voted for Bush do) but even with that gays provided around 8% of Gore's vote. Plus all the money and activism that people who often don't have kids can bring. This would be a serious mistake and profoundly disrespectful. We deserve better.

[blm]

7. Horse pucky, Eleanor. Kerry isn't shying away from this battle.

He had the nerve to stand up against almost EVERYONE else in the Senate and Congress and Pentagon to say that gays should be allowed to serve openly in the military. He stood up and said that DOMA was "gaybashing in the Senate". He stood up as far back as 85 for with antidiscrimination legislation.

[dsc]

9. everyone else?

Look he did great work on it but all of the following voted for and advocated for gays in the military. Alfonse D"Amato, Chuck Robb, Bob Kerrey, Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, John Glenn, Howard Metzenbalm, and several others. Please stop giving Kerry all the credit all the time. He was hardly alone on this issue.

[blm]

10. Read my words exactly for a change.

I said almost everyone else in the Senate, Congress and Pentagon. When you group them together, only a small percentage stood with Kerry.

And it was Kerry who TESTIFIED before Congress on it... so....YES, he was a factor standing up and not just with a vote.

Nice crusade you're on to diminish Kerry's accomplishments for gay issues. Kinda sad to me since I always believed you in the past when you said you felt Kerry had a great record on gay rights.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

24. wrong. I had edited before you posted.

And was correcting a typo.

My edit was at 10:49 and your post was at 10:53.

You owe me an apology.

[dsc]

37. No I got interrupted during posting

so I started posting before your edit. I hit send after it. And I know what I read.

[blm]

39. You're still wrong. I edited a typo within 1 minute after I first posted.

YOU want to claim otherwise but the timeline proves differently.

You owe me an apolgy for your prior accusation.


And how is it even possible for me to see your post at 10;53 BEFORE I edited at 10:49?

Do you think I have superpowers or something?

[dsc]

40. Read my words exactly the post I compalained about

was posted at 1058 which is after 1053. Yes your edit came before I finished my post. But the simple fact is that you, as you always do, give more credit to Kerry than he really deserves. You had EVERYONE in all caps. Even if almost was there, and I still don't think it was, you purposely made it look like EVERYONE. Not ALMOST EVERYONE. Kerry deserves some credit. You typed a post giving him virtually all credit. That is what you always do. All the time you call my candidate a fraud who takes credit for things he didn't do.

[blm]

51. Sorry, but that edit charge doesn't even make sense.

And Kerry did do more than most others and did so for many years. YOU used to give him credit for it until he overtook Dean in the polls. Now, you treat him like a traitor.

Your consistency is at stake here, not mine.

[dsc]

12. one other thing

Robb was on the committee and I would consider his behavior the equivalent of testifying. I also think that Glenn did as well.

[Cuban_Liberal]

8. I'm not going to sit at 'the back of the bus' this election.

I hope Sen. Kerry will remain firm and adhere to his heretofore admirable record on GLBT issues, because if he doesn't...

[bigtree]

13. He doesn't have to agree with Gays and Lesbians on everything

And he has a right to his view as folks have every right to make a judgement on that view. Most Americans straddle that fence. I expect the Gay and Lesbian community to do more than throw darts at their own party (the leadership has been remarkably responsible on this).
I expect John Kerry to stand firmly behind the statements and actions on this issue, as he has so far. This is not new territory for him.

It will be interesting to see if the G&L community will allow him to continue hold his views without castigating him for not going as far as them. His state appears to be moving outside the sphere of his support. But to his credit he has said that he would not substitute the state's inituitive with his own more narrow instincts on this.

I trust his instincts and I agree with his stand so far.

[dsc]

14. Oh masta

May I post a post against the big boss Kerry or am I being an uppity fag. God for fucking bid I actually disagree with my party. The party, one of whose activists is quoted as saying I am 50th on his list.

[bigtree]

16. You can post against John Kerry to your heart's content

I will do my best to defend him.

BTW, I am listening to your advocacy and trying to learn.

[corporatewhore]

34. Uppity Queers Unite!!!!

[bigtree]

43. I like that

It sings!

[BuelahWitch]

46. I'm an Uppity Friend of Queers

Can I join too? :hi:

[corporatewhore]

19. would you ask this of the latino community

to not hold it against him if he didnt want to allow us the same rights
SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cuban_Liberal]

21. Of course they wouldn't.

We GLBT folks are the last minority that it is marginally-acceptable to ignore.

Viva La Raza! :hi:

[IndianaGreen]

49. Equality under the law is not for sale or compromise

My civil liberties under the Bill of Rights are not for sale or compromise, even when Congress pisses them away with their dictatorial PATRIOT Act.

[adriennel]

17. please don't boycott the election

but if Kerry doesn't come clean on this issue, I will boycott him. Kerry has stated he is opposed to gay marriage and did not agree with the MA court ruling. This presents a real problem for me. You can't have it both ways, as Gov Granholm blundered through on RealTime with Bill Maher last night. You can't be pro-civil union, anti-gay marriage, and liberal or progressive or even democratic at the same time (imo). I'm starting to think this is "compassionate conservative" type of thing.

[mdguss]

18. The best thing to do:

Here is what I think:

The best thing to do is focus on the more sympathetic aspects of the gay rights' debate. Death bed visitation is an issue that can be very sympathetic to middle america. (If done properly, it can show Republicans picking on the weakest among us again).

Gay marriage isn't a sympathetic issue to middle america. Gay marriage is a political trap that will snare the Democratic Party and lead to a disastorus defeat.

The best thing to do: say the party opposes gay marriage, vote against the constitutional amendment on the grounds of it would prevent death bed visitation. And stregthen the Defense of Marriage Act to put sanctions on states that allow gay marriage.

[corporatewhore]

20. would you recomend the dem party to say it opposes equalrights for latinos

if it wasnt a "sympathetic issue"

[mdguss]

23. Well:

How can one support Latinos issues (many are Catholic) while supporting gay marriage? Therein lies the problem. And it's not only latinos that oppose gay marriage, it's soccer moms, white catholic Democrats, rank and file union workers, and much of the African American christain community. Yes, let's tick off all of those groups.

If the Democratic Party comes out in favor of gay marriage, it will lose a substantial amount of votes from each of those groups. The fact is we need EVERYBODY on board to win the election. A full train means that you don't always get the seat you want.

As for Latinos, we saw what driver's licenses for illegal immigrants did to Gray Davis. I would reccomend that the Democratic Party stay away from that one (it isn't even supported within the Latino community).

I wouldn't reccomend that the Democratic Party take the side of tax breaks for SUVs (Soccer Mom tax break). That would be bad.

Everybody's going to get a little piece of the pie. If you're not happy with it, go ahead, leave. I'm sure Bush will give you less than crumbs.

[corporatewhore]

33. thank you for the broad generalization

1 alot of us are GBL or T (like me!)
2 not all of us are catholic
3 not all catholics are bigots
4 abortion is a controversial issue w/christians should we be against it too
5 nothing excuses or rationalizes bigotry

[adriennel]

22. huh?

I want to protest your post but I didn't understand a darn word you said.
deathbed visitation=sympathetic gay issue
inequality in matters personal, private, and public=not a sympathetic gay issue

whatever...I think I'm about to use that DU option I've never used before.

[mdguss]

26. Gay Marriage:

Is not sympathetic for middle america because it threatens a way of life for the groups I mentioned above. Joe Sixpack isn't going to be sympathetic to gays that want to get married. Beyond Joe Sixpack, many members of the Democratic coalition are not happy with the idea of gay marriage. Gay marriage also unfies the disillusioned right behind Bush.

If the Democratic party phrases gay marriage in terms of "Equal Rights," many, many people will be upset. A gay marriage law would (in their minds) interfere with their religion. I tend to agree that it would interfere with the free exercise of religion. (I personally have no problem with gay people being married; I have a problem with a gay marriage law's effect on religon).

But if the Democratic party stays away from the word marriage, and focuses on tangeiblt things (like death bed visitation, life insurance, etc.), people will see a more compelling side of the issue. If we fight on the sympathetic issues, we won't lose the ground that has been gained.

If we fight over gay marriage (which much of the country opposes), all the ground will be lost in a Republican landslide that elects nightmare senators and congressmen who pass an amendment that bans even civil unions.

[HFishbine]

29. Please explain

how allowing gay people to marry would infringe on the free exercise of religion.

[mdguss]

30. Forcing Churches:

To pay the benefits of gay employees'/contractors' spouses. That is impeding on their right to express their religon.

[HFishbine]

36. That's not an infringement on their religion

a) That's not an ingringement on their religion. It neither forces upon them any prohibition or denies them any practice of their religion.

b) If they find it offensive, they can avoid it by not offering benefits to any spouses

c) If we allowed employment laws to be circumvented by that excuse, then we would conceivably, if not probably, have churches that would choose not to extend spousal benefits to spouses who are not of the same religion as the church employee. "What? Mrs. Whitebread is Jewish? Oh, I'm sorry. She can't be on your health plan."

[IndianaGreen]

50. Should single people be fired because they are not chaste?

That is impeding on their right to express their religon.

Should a single parent be denied employment because he or she is not married?

Should an unmarried woman be fired or denied employment because she is pregnant or has children?

Should our taxes subsidize religion and religious institutions?

People should not be playing GAWD!

[dsc]

25. sanctions on states that allow gay marriage?

Like what. They have all their federal funds withheld. They have their national guards sent to Iraq. Have their people sent to Texas?

[mdguss]

27. Not anything that would hurt them:

Maybe withholding 5 percent of funds that go to the operation of state courts. A token measure. But it takes the issue off of the table.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. As a woman, specifically a gay woman, I know which side my bread

is buttered on.

While I greatly empathize with the diverging opinions in this battle, my choices boil down to a party that wants to take away my rights over my body if I am straight and advocate HATRED against me including appoointing judges that would take away my chldren if I am gay.

In Tennessee, a man just got a one year sentence for MURDERING a gay man in cold blood. A hallmark of the Republican party is that my life is worth LESS than a straight person's.

RW nuts such as that moron in Kansas claim websites which remark that Matthew Sheppard is "still rotting in hell."

ANY AND ALL of the Democratic candidates would do far better.

I AM REALLY looking forward to a change where the HATRED expressed is not a TOP DOWN phenomenon ala USING THE FUCKING SOTU to further exacerbate the hatred.

I am NOT INTERESTED in being a TOOL for any of the candidates to win.

So if some gay folks climb on board with you in your quest to derail Kerry on behalf of Dean...fine...they have their principles and their reasoning.

I personally am not a bargaining chip to be persuaded with SCARE tactics. I know a Kerry administration AND a DEAN administration would treat me FAR BETTER than a BUSH administration.

Hope I have made myself clear!

[Forkboy]

31. I personally am not a bargaining chip to be persuaded with SCARE tactics."

Well,I can certainly appreciate THAT viewpoint.

[mdguss]

32. Well Said Nothingshocksmeanymore

That was a good post.

[adriennel]

35. wait

I don't think that you will find many people here who disagree that any Dem candidate is better than another Bush Administration. But we're still in the primary stage (technically : ) so examination of the issues and the candidates' stance on them is totally appropriate, imo. Just because Kerry is not my candidate of choice does not mean I won't vote Dem. Why is it considered negative to question the stance of a potentional presidential candidate? If Kerry wins the nomination I look forward to what he continues to say on the issue...he's assured to be asked about ad-naseum.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. What candidates say and what they can reasonably accomplish

in a one party system where the party that hates me most and used uber-religious symbolism to divide the electorate is also relevent.

I am glad Dennis Kucinich has the strongest statements. They are bold and welcomed.

I am glad Dean had the guts to sign the Civil Unions bill in VT.

I am glad Kerry fought against discrimination in the earlier stages of this battle.

I am NOT one to castigate a candidate for pasrsing their words carefully given that there has been a slight movement in the general electorate on this issue.

I live in California where 70% of the electorate (at least those that voted) voted FOR DEFINING MARRIAGE as a man and a woman just a few short years ago.
There is a BIG difference between 36 million people and 650,000.

People might want to look at Dean's statement regarding the MA decision which claimed they took a "different approach" to the same issue. How different is that from Kerry's?

[dsc]

45. there is a lot of difference

Dean didn't reject the underlying premise of the decision like Kerry did. This decision wasn't just about gay marriage. It was about gay rights. I think that is what many were offended by.

My problem is different. I think, after seeing his literature and his stump speeches, that Kerry has a very distrubing habit of telling gays and lesbians one thing and the country another. We excused this kind of thing in Clinton with much the same reasoning I see here. But, in the final analysis, Clinton was a very mixed blessing. I fail to see who we didn't get ENDA which had close to 60% approval, with a Demcoratic House, Senate, and President except by a failure of leadership on Clinton's part.

I hold no illusions about gay marriage or even national civil unions, but I do think ENDA and hate crimes are doable with the right candidate. I know Dean would, I am honestly unsure about both Clark and Kerry, and think that Edwards would put us on the far back burner. You have those things I don't. ENDA is very important to me, and hate crimes is somewhat important. The wrong candidate will mean 8 years without either. I don't want that.

[tishaLA]

38. A small point, perhaps

but Sistah Souljah (one can prefer Cliff's almost mockingly ANglicized version of her name, I guess) was not, as Cliff says, "a relatively unknown blues singer" when Clinton ctiricizd her. She was a rapper who was hanging with Public Enemy, which was then what lead rapper Chuck D called "CNN for Black folks."

I will take the rest of Cliff's argument as seriously as she takes the facts surrounding "Sister" Souljah.

[HFishbine]

41. That's how Sister Souljah spells her name

s-i-s-t-e-r s-o-u-l-j-a-h

[tishaLA]

44. You're right

And my memory is bad.

She is not a blues singer, though. Can I hold on to that one?

[dsc]

47. actually she is

I know that the Grammy category is rhythm and blues. Which makes her technically correct on that as well.