Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why I believe everyone here should be ABB in the GE

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:38 PM
Original message
Why I believe everyone here should be ABB in the GE
DISCLAIMER: This isn't asking for any loyalty oaths. You can vote however you want. Feel free to read or ignore this post and disagree as you see fit. However I will try to make the case as thoroughly as possible, so please read the post before you respond. Thanks.

The argument against ABB is always the same argument. It basically proposes that whichever candidate is too "enabling", "status-quo" or "corporate" or whatever is perpetuating the problem in the same way the incumbent does. That folks would still make this argument in the face of Bush's first term shows how logically bankrupt the argument is. But we have seen it before.

'By raising the specter of Bush's extreme policies, the Democratic Party is attempting to sidetrack the masses from vigorous action against the dictatorship of finance capital.... There are some people who fail to see the Democratic forest for the Republican trees'

Sound about right? Could be Nader in 2000, or any number of ABKers or ABDers here. Well, it's neither. Here's the original quote:

'By raising the specter of Hitler's fascism, Social Democracy is attempting to sidetrack the masses from the vigorous action against the dictatorship of finance capital.... There are some people who fail to see the Social Democratic forest for the National Socialist trees'

Those of you who know your history will recognize these words as those of Ernst Thalmann, leader of the KPD, Germany's communist party, in the early thirties. Thalmann went on to declare, after the Nazi victories in the 1930 elections, that it would be Hitler's "best day" and that "worse days" were to come. He believed the SPD to be the more insidious enemy of the people, and the Nazis to be too ridiculous to have sustained power over the people for any amount of time. Thalmann later died in Buchenwald.

To his credit, he was dealing with a population that was almost wholly revolutionary--disgusted with the Wiemar republic. To further give some small justification to his actions, the left was split far more violently than it is today. The SPD was the most represented party in the Reichstag, and was bitterly divided from the KPD by some brutal crackdowns on revolts, including the killing of two major communist leaders, which was orchestrated by a SPD defense minister.

You may be saying to yourself that this is total hyperbole. You may think that Hitler is not at all comparable to Bush, and I am just raising this canard in an attempt to distract you from the real enemy. Forgetting how like that sentiment is to Thalmann's quote, I am still happy to answer it. Let's examine what Hitler did early on once his party had gained power.

-Built up fear of shadowy "outsider" enemies (domestic and abroad) to shift blame for failures and to keep populace dependent on and grateful toward the authoritarian regime.

-Demolished civil rights for "undesirable" citizens, and built up bigotry and hate to justify it. Used the threat of "attack" and the promise of "security" to erode the rights of all citizens.

-Consolidated the media, and used it to push the government line. Ask your favorite history teacher how many independent newspapers there were before Hitler's rise to power in Germany, and how many there were afterwards.

-Persecuted leftist leaders. Leaders like Thalmann, many who genuinely wished to better the country, were cruelly put down.

-Put into place a campaign of perpetual war abroad and continual fear and spectacle at home.


Now, to tie this into Bush. Many of you already see where this is going, but I will spell it out in detail. What we have endured in these past years? What has Bush done so far?

-Built up fear of shadowy "outsider" enemies (domestic and abroad) to shift blame for failures and to keep populace dependent on and grateful toward the authoritarian regime. You have your Saddam, Osama, and the domestic terrorists. Sikhs have been beaten in the street because of this nonsense.

-Demolished civil rights for "undesirables". Homosexuals, Middle Eastern immigrants, or protesters--take your pick. This government has consistently played up bigotry and fear to demolish civil rights. Also, they have used the threat of "attacks" to erode the rights of all citizens via the Patriot Act.

-Consolidated the media. FCC chief Michael Powell has done this in an almost ridiculously Orwellian manner, with quotes as "our glorious local media will flourish", and "the evils of media consolidation will never get past our fortifications".

-Persecuted leftist leaders. Nancy Oden and Doug Stuber of the Green Party have experienced this, as has John Dear, a Jesuit priest who whacked an F15 with a hammer in an act of civil disobedience. http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/27/02/feature3.shtml

-Put into place a campaign of perpetual war abroad and continual fear and spectacle at home. When does the "war on terror" end? Never. What is our news coverage based on? Deadly flus, abductions, and celebrity nonsense.


You still may not be convinced. You may make the argument that since many of the Congressional Dems in the race were collaborators on one level or another, no vote for them can be properly justified if one upholds leftist values. I suppose it depends on what you want to do. I want Bush out, and I am willing to compromise on a collaborator to do so. However, any of the major candidates do not require a significant compromise. According to the political compass below, our candidates are all to the left of Bush, and less authoritarian. The greatest change would be made by Kucinich and Sharpton, but I am perfectly happy voting for Kerry or Dean. I would cast my vote without hesitation for Edwards or Clark.

If all you want to do is hold true to your values above all else, vote Green or stay home. But if you want to move the country left, the means to do so lies in the Democratic party. Better an enabler than an initiator. Better a marginal turn to the left than a disaster brought on by a lame duck authoritarian regime.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. As Ben Franklin once said,
"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. ABB - Anything Besides Basic principles
sounds good to me!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. I am against anybody that voted for IWR.
I am against anybody that voted for the Patriot Act.

I am against anybody that is against gay marriage.

If the Democratic nominee happens to fall into any of what I just said, I will use my vote to write in who I think should be President. I will not waver on any of the three issues listed above.

The IWR vote was wrong then, it is still wrong now, The Patriot act was wrong then, it is still wrong now. Gays and Lesbians have been unequeal for way to long, it was wrong then, it is still wrong now!

I guess I am still ABB, because if I have to write my vote in, it won't be for Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
democraticgator Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. some people still dont get it..........
The candidate doesnt have to be perfect, but he will be much better than Bush on these issues. If you write in a vote in a swing state, that is a vote for bush and everything that comes with it: perpetual war, free reign for corporations and a proposed CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT outlawing same sex marriage. Think about that before you vote.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Democrats unite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Some people still don't get it...
You have to earn my vote!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Lalalalalalalala....I can't hear you...Lalalalalalalalala
I'm too busy feeling self important and self righteous.
As Ralphie from the Simpsons might say:
"I'm a revolutionary!"

Good piece and well made points. I agree 100%
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. I don't think that you understand some of the objections to ABB.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 03:50 PM by bowens43
The objections, IMO , have little to do with the records, positions and proposed policies of individual candidates. It's the message sent by 'ABB' that many of us find objectionable. The message basically is that principle and ideology should not matter. The message is that the only thing of importance is voting for a guy with a (D) next to his name. The message is win at all costs. The message is substance is less important then a nice hair cut and sparkling eyes. The message is that politics is only a game with nothing at risk but bragging rights. ABB cheapens our party. It cheapens the political process. It cheapens our candidates. It especially cheapens our eventual nominee , whoever he may be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Democrats are not entitled to anyone's vote
But I am free, I hope, to make an argument for why leftist folks SHOULD vote Dem this time around. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stuzzy Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I agree bowens43
It cheapens people's votes also. Votes not earned are hollow votes. Whoever wins the nomination has a duty to try and convince the other suporters that he won for a reason, and try to bring them into the fold. In other words, make them believe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Actually, my own objections have everything to do with those things.
NT!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, thats fine and I respect that.
That's kind of my point. Whether or not I agree with you on the issues, it is up to each of us to vote our conscience. To vote for someone simply because they have a (D) next to their name does the process a disservice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I agree. Hopefully my post gives my reasons for voting "D" this time (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It does, and it's a great post.
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 04:06 PM by bowens43
I guess my point was that not all who are anti-ABB are anti-ABB because our preferred candidate is losing. It's more the concept then then the sentiment that I disagree with. Most likely I will vote for the nominee. But I will not vote for someone I find to be completely unacceptable. For the record, I have voted a straight Democratic ticket in every election since 1976.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Virgil Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Exactly. That is why we got Bush.
All the Republicans could do is think of winning back the White House once Clinton's penis left. They said Bush has a lot of money and big recommendations. Well, we got Bush.

Now the Democrats hate Bush along with people like me that are independent. They say Kerry can win, so let's send him. Kerry says I will study NAFTA when elected and let you know my genius on it. BBV went through Congress with all but the intent of removing paper trails. There might have been hanging chads but at least there was a paper trail. He nor no other Senator support legislation saying the whole thing was a ef up. I cannot find BBV on Kerry's subjects on his webpage. He does not speak out on the campaign. Someone said at DU said he did not endorse it because he has been gone from DC for months. What a joke. Kerry is not at his jobsite so he cannot fix what corruption wrought. But anyway, Kerry is the establishments man that went along with everything to get to this point. But this is not about Kerry. He has a mansion and a spare. It is about us.

As an independent, I see the issue before us as the complete corruption of government. So you cannot expect any built in support from me. The reason I say I will not vote for Kerry, is so that you know that ABB does not cut it with everybody. I am just telling you what I know to be reality. All I have said is that the issues were being neglected and the Democratic Party needs to find its soul and send out the man that bring about the greatest common good. That should be the beacon.

If the Democrats lose to the worst president ever it is because they are the worst party ever. If they lose then the next time they might really search their soul and reinvent the party from the sellout it is to the concentrations of wealth that it now is. The Democrats let all of this happen when many things needed a supermajority. So they lose. Maybe then they will define where America needs to go and listen to what many people are saying. The entire system is corrupt. Look at the War on Drugs. Look and see we have a call for failure to continue and look at the silence in the media. BBV is the best example because it is so obvious.

Besides that, the president is no pill. What about Congress and the corporate whores that think of gettine re-elected. I am not being mean when I say that it is not the worst thing to happen if Kerry gets beat. What I am saying is that if Kerry gets nominated, to me it proves the Democratic Party is the worst party ever. Then I would have to say I chose neither.

It does not make sense if you do not accept the principle that both parties are a corruption to the greatest common good. BBV and the WOD show it very well, and it is everywhere, except maybe the Patent Office. I do not even care if you believe me. The Republicans gave us Bush because they wanted the White House. I am not for playing ping-pong while everyone thinks it a great pill. But, whatever.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nice analogy. So if we're not vehemently ABB, we're Nazi-enablers?
Give me a fucking break.

Look, I'll vote against b*sh. DUH! I may have to hold my nose and cry at the fact that Americans traded one monster for a mere corporate-pleasing beast, but I'll pull the lever. I'll be enabling an enabler, maybe, but if it buys us some time and it's the only option, fine. I doubt it will fix anything but the most egregious of current evils, but whatever, just punch that Dem hole.

But to even hint that those of us who oppose b*sh-enablers would willingly assist b*sh by not voting against him is insulting.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. No--these are the risks while a radical authoritarian regime is in power
I agree with this entirely:

I may have to hold my nose and cry at the fact that Americans traded one monster for a mere corporate-pleasing beast, but I'll pull the lever. I'll be enabling an enabler, maybe, but if it buys us some time and it's the only option, fine. I doubt it will fix anything but the most egregious of current evils, but whatever, just punch that Dem hole.

Logically, the only person who can win the GE is Bush or the Democrat.

If you withold your support from the Democrat, you aren't helping the Democrat. I don't know if I would say that means you are helping Bush. If you vote Green, you can say you are helping a third party. Again, no Dem is entitled to your vote, but I wanted to make the argument for why I am voting Dem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stuzzy Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. I would suggest...........
that people who want to try and convince people to vote ABB, should drop the ABB tagline.

"Why you should vote for our eventual nominee"

sounds a lot better to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. That's probably a good idea
I am specifically giving reasons for this pack of Democratic candidates, not "anybody".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stuzzy Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yeah I get that from your statement
ABB raises a lot of hackles, just trying to help you tailor your message. :)

We will win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I agree completely.
I'm not ABB and there is only one of the current candidates I am opposed to. I find concept ABB to be offensive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. ABB
Edited on Sat Feb-07-04 04:19 PM by drfemoe
reversed gives us the true meaning of the term == "BAA" .. That's what most of the Democratic House and Senate members were saying while *B* was perpetrating the atrocities you list. Now they want us to do the same? (my body isn't covered with curly wool and I say "SQUAWK", not "BAA") ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Does it make sense to use
the GE as the final protest against the machine? Politicians only need us during an election. This is a lobbying effort. Once they get in they rarely care what we think. With chimp, we are standing blindfolded at the firing squad. Without chimp we are back in prison.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fleetus Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. Song about ABB... and my 2 cents
http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/randi_audio/abb.mp3

(give it time to load)

ABB is not about giving up principles. It's about saying ANY of the democratic candidates running for the nomination this year would be better than Bush. In my opinion, any one of them would do a better job with our country... and that's why I'm down with ABB.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
24. one more time . . . Chief Justice Antonin Scalia . . .
Associate Justice John Ashcroft . . . think about it . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. erm
when I see Democrats using the same tactics and policies the big bad Repukes do, it doesn't make me MORE afraid of the big bad Repukes. There is a Movement to reclaim the power of the People of the United States of America from the corporatists who have stolen it. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party has chosen not to be a part of that Movement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. Right on.
And interesting re: the graph. I did know that Kerry was actually more to the left than Dean in some ways, but the "more libertarian" angle surprises me. hm.

and *not* surprised to see just how close Lieberman is to Bush, than God he's dropped. that alone makes me feel better about ABB, even tho' I was there already--i figured at minimum Lieberman wouldn't have frigging Ashcroft in the AG driver's seat. but it would've been depressing and scary as hell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. This political compass isn't the be-all end-all for political plotting
I just put it up to give an idea of how our guys are relative to Bush. Depending on what gravity they give some issues over others, the compass can be skewed one way or another. For example, a graph that gave more weight to an IWR vote would show Dean closer to Kerry on the Authoritarian angle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-07-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Kick, to offset the anti-ABB kick (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Dec 26th 2024, 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC