Does Howard Dean still think Americans are not safer after the...

[deminflorida]

arrest of Saddam Hussein? After seeing Saddam pulled from a hole Moammar Gadhafi seems to have had a change of heart concerning his countries Weapons of Mass Destruction.

"Gadhafi: Iraq war may have influenced WMD decision

Such weapons no longer necessary, Libyan leader says
Monday, December 22, 2003 Posted: 11:04 PM EST (0404 GMT"

CNN's David Ensor reports that Libya has a sizeable stockpile of chemical weapons, but appears to have stopped producing them years ago.

TRIPOLI, Libya (CNN) -- Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, in an exclusive interview with CNN, acknowledged Monday that the war in Iraq may have played a role in his decision to dismantle his country's weapons of mass destruction programs."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/12/22/gadhafi.interview

[November 2004]

1. Oh, that Dean, he's such a kidder!

n/t

[LuminousX]

2. Who ever thinks we are safer now than before is

living an Apollonian life and is refusing to face reality.

[INTELBYTES]

15. I think we are safer now.

Don't let your dislike for shrub cloud your reality. I'm glad there is one less tyrant in the world who was a ruthless killer, and financed terrorist orginizations. Whether WMD's are found or not, he did have them at one time and used them on his own people. I think Shrub and his cowboy ways scared the crap out of Khaddifi.

I don't agree with a lot that shrub has done, but going around putting your head in your "apollonian sand pile" doesn't do justice for the truth. As a Dem, I'm tired of having to explain Deans idiotic quips to friends who come to me for explanations. It's better that we deal it truths about situations and explain why we have a better vision of how to run America than having to explain away stupid rhetoric such as this. :wtf:

[Rose Siding]

28. That's just what Gee Dub always told us!

It's rare to see such praise for Bush around here.

As a Dem, I'm tired of having to explain that a nat'l security policy that strengthens our enemies, costs us our allies and empties our treasury really *doesn't* make bush strong on security. It makes him an idiot!

[wryter2000]

30. Bush thanks you for your regard

I can't wait until we have a nominee (whoever it is) and posts like this one will no longer be tolerated.

[polpilot]

34. Happy you're not scared since the 'Booger Bear' was pulled from his

hole. I hope they have also captured his stampeding camels...Whooo Hooo those fleet footed...flying swimming camels could have been the death o' yah!!!

Dean '04...

[bitchkitty]

54. One less tyrant,

and how many more "terrorists" 5, 10 years down the road?

Thinking seriously of taking a break until the primaries are over. Sheesh, if I wanted to hear pro-Bush spin, I'd watch Fox news!

[otohara]

63. Khaddifi Just Said That To Stroke Bush

he's been wanting back in the international community for a very long time, yes even when Clinton was the last elected president - It has more to do with economics, oil - vs invasion of Iraq. Lybia is not on Jr.s axis of evil radar map.

[BootinUp]

42. Like a fine wine, the answer will not be ready

before its time. Its likely we have ratcheted up the War on Terror, not struck a mighty blow. But I do not profess to know for sure.

corrected the wording of my pun

[Scott Lee]

3. Let's bash Dean some more for telling the truth!

in other words...another POOP thread.

[dsc]

4. NBC News tonight

Spoke of even more flights likely to be cancelled. Al Quida still is going to use planes to attack us. And other countries may not even cooperate in the future since we over reacted now. So are we safer? I think not.

[AWD]

6. Don't you get it???

That means we ARE safer! More flights were cancelled just to show us how safe they are keeping us!

Besides, Dean said it so it's bullshit. New rules.

[Myra]

14. Dean was totally correct in his claim that we're no safer now.

It's a stretch to try to make a controversy out of that obvious truth.

[killbotfactory]

5. Yeah.... Libya was a real menace...

I'm so glad we traded the lives of nearly 500 of our soldiers, thousands of wounded, tens of thousands of innocent civilians, hundreds of billions of dollars, and gotten into a guerilla war with no end it sight, to pursue weapons which didn't exist, for the disarming of Libya.

Why didn't we just invade Libya?

[deminflorida]

7. I don't think Libya is actively dangerous, but there was that....

airliner that was blown up over Scotland, right? My, my what short memories we all have if Howard Dean's judgement is questioned. I'm sure the Mods will lock this one too...

Heaven forbid a moderate Democrat question anything concerning Howard Dean's stance on issues during the primary.

[deutsey]

20. A mother of one of the victims of that flight doesn't feel safer

or happy that Bush has struck a deal with the devil that killed her child:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/12/22/1658258

AMY GOODMAN: ...Can you tell us your response to this announcement?

SUSAN COHEN: I think it's absolutely appalling, a total betrayal and really something the oil companies have wanted for a great deal of time. I find it ironic today that I see today Saddam Hussein coming out of a hole, Milosevic in court, and Muammar Gaddafi being sanctified. Jack Straw said that Gaddafi is a great statesman. You know, my only child has been murdered. My life has been shattered. The blowing up of Pan Am 103 was a terrible, terrible war crime. And I’m afraid I don't see Muammar Gaddafi, dictator, tyrant, mass murderer, and terrorist as a great statesman. So, I think the smear that will be put on this is oh, look, this is wonderful with the WMD. Look, he's going to give it up.

There are two possibilities here. One, is he doesn't have really very much. Let’s look at what happened with Iraq. Two, whatever he gives up, he can get again at any time once he has the wealth and technology that will flow to him when the commercial sanctions are lifted and diplomatic relations are restored. I really think this is a very, very bad thing. It’s just the bad guys getting away with it again. That’s all this is. This is not in any way this great step forward. That is going to have to be shown. I would like to point out that President Bush was not with the families yesterday, has not shown any compassion in his statement. He praised Gaddafi. He certainly didn't show any sympathy for us. I think if you look at the oil guys and you look at that, that is the true story of what is going on. It is about making money. That Gaddafi should be there and that the very people to helped to plan the bombing were involved in the planning an working out of this deal to bring everyone together really does show what a farce and fraud our whole war on terrorism is.

...Muammar Gaddafi blew up an American plane. And may I point out, no WMD very much was involved in that. That was a little syntax as our 9-11 we have a few planes. I don't want to hear that suddenly, oh well, now this man is ready to change. First…ready to change his ways. There are some crimes that are totally unforgivable, and, you know, there are some tyrants who are really not to be tolerated. So, I am sorry, I don't care whether Gaddafi has been made for the moment someone to fear or wanting to get all of his – what does he want? He wants to get a lot richer. That doesn't represent much of a change. You do not have a foreign policy where you turn around and you reward someone like this, and that you can come back from an act like that. If we have a war on terrorism and maybe some of the people who listen to this don't really want a war on terrorism, but one was brought to our shores. If you have a war on terrorism, you don't have policies and appeasement like this, you got 9-11 in part because of this kind of policy. I am sorry. Muammar Gaddafi is a murderer. He is the worst one there. There is nothing that was done to us by Saddam Hussein that equals what Gaddafi did. So, no, I’m sorry. I don't think that just because he wants to turn around now and make money with the oil boys that that is reason enough for us to do this, for the western democracies to cave as they did with Hitler and say, well, it's okay.

MORE

*****************

Yeah, like her, I feel a whole lot safer, don't you? :evilfrown:

[killbotfactory]

21. The costs outweigh the benefits...

Or is it too much to ask to expect people to look at the good and bad consequences of their actions?

[bowens43]

35. You have got to be kidding.

Please explain how a jetliner blown up over Scotland was a threat to the US and explain how Moammar Gadhafi giving up supposed weapons years later makes us safer. Keep in mind that NONE of those weapons were ever used against the US nor could they be in any relaible fashion.

[farmbo]

8. Five US soldiers dead today; 2 assassination attempts on Mushauraff

...which could turn the worlds 5th largest nuclear weapons program over to militant Muslims. You be the judge.

And...sorry... the Libyan sanctions- lifting deal has been in the works for years...long before the Kurds put Saddam down the spider hole.

Good GOP talking point though.

:grr:

[deminflorida]

16. No it's not a GOP talking point...it's a Democratic talking point..

problem is, that if it has anything to do with questioning Dean's judgement on Forgein Affairs, it gets labeled as a GOP talking point.

We'll guess what the American public is going to choose a candidate that knows how to properly address those issues of forgein policy, period.

As horrible as Bush is, if the Democrats don't put forward a candidate that can address those issues properly...the public even though they hate Bush will stick with him, because at least they know what they have.

The same thing happened with Nixon.

[farmbo]

27. On September 10, 2001 we had the strongest , best led military in ...

...the world. And that did not make us safe from the 9/11 attacks. Democrats who feel that we "need" a candidate with a military credentials are, in my view, mistaken.

Bush's invasion of Iraq has turned millions of young Muslims into the outstretched arms of Al Queda...and sent that pitiable country spiraling into a dark chasm of chaos for years to come.

I respectably disagree with your premise. The world is less...not more...safe owing to the Iraq war. And Saddam's capture was but a minor sideshow in that geopolitical Black Comedy.

(BTW your Nixon analogy is off the mark...George McGovern was a decorated war hero who served in the 8th Air Force in WW II and served on the Senate Armed Services Committee. He ably "addressed" military issues, but was still slimed by a crooked, well-funded Republican who had to be removed two years later at a terrible cost to the nation)

[bearfartinthewoods]

56. and on 9/10 Libyia was working on it's nuke program and stockpiling

cchemical weapons.

[Terwilliger]

60. what nuke program?

the one our government tells us it was creating?

This was a PR ploy by Bush in return for economic considerations.

[thinkahead]

65. It's not just Dean's judgement

It's questioning the judgement of a huge chunk of Democrats. And Dean is addressing those issues. I know you don't see it as "properly" because he doesn't wear a uniform, but he has been addressing those issues since long before General Clark decided he was a Democrat.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maxanne]

10. the orange alert

would seem to indicate that Dean was/is right.

[WillyT]

51. Bingo !!!

Can you say Orange Alert... I knew ya could.

:nuke:

[dajabr]

11. Libyan Oil Production: 1.429 million bbl/day (2001 est.)

Meanwhile, North Korea goes nuclear...

:wtf:

wtf you say? Here's what's behind B*sh Admin priorities:

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=1&num=53

[Devil Dog Dem]

12. Libya? Is that the best Shrub can do?

Talk to me when North Korea disarms and opens up.
Talk to me when the Saudis begin jailing their own princes, who funnel cash to terror organizations.
Talk to me when Iran allows open, free, and fair elections.

Until then, tell Shrub to take his Libya and go away.

[Cha]

13. You think we're "safer now"? Does clark

think we're "safer"? Or is this just coming from you?

I thought clark wasn't in favor of bombing Iraq?

:wtf:

[deminflorida]

17. What I'm trying to say is this......He needs to watch putting his foot

in his mouth, because saying that we are no safer period is not going
to fly in the general election.

It just won't fly period....

And no I was not for the War, at all......

I agree with Clark, it was the wrong war at the wrong time.

[janx]

19. The truth won't fly?

Sorry, but I am of the mind that the truth, for once, is what we need right now.

Dean has always said that we won't agree with him one hundred percent of the time--but he's after truth.

I don't know about you, but I like a little truth at this point, as it's something that has been sorely lacking.

[Cha]

22. I disagree! Dean is telling the truth and you

call it what you will. your logic escapes me.

[babzilla]

18. take it from Ghadaffi, the #1 authority on how to keep america safe

"We have not these weapons," he said, adding that the programs he is prepared to dismantle "would have been for peaceful purposes -- but nevertheless we decided to get rid of them completely.

"There are many rumors, propaganda," he said.

Asked about his decision, Gadhafi acknowledged that the Iraq war may have influenced him, but he insisted he wanted to focus on the "positive."

He said the world is a changed place in which his country can feel safe without weapons of mass destruction.

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

[Upfront]

23. Dean Was Right

This party may as will give up if this kind of crap keeps coming from so called democrats. Losing is hard people but don't go brain dead, just because your candidate is doing poorly.

[deminflorida]

24. Nice, Oh and by the way my candidate is not doing poorly at all...

n/t

Keep repeating, Feb. 3, 2004.

Feb. 3, 2004

[RevolutionStartsNow]

26. Okay

As a Dean supporter, I CAN'T WAIT for Feb. 3.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. Give him another week or so

to turn his flip into a flop. That's usually how long it takes him to "have a change of heart." :eyes: He first has to float the statement to see how it goes over. If he gets a good reaction, he'll let it stand. If there's a lot of backlash he'll back pedal. Give him time.

[bowens43]

36. Flip flops?

A Clark supporter is going to complain about flip flops? Wow.

[mouse7]

29. How many cars exploded simultaneously to try to kill Musharrif?

Wasn't it two big simultaneous car bombs?

How many people think we will be safer with an assassinated leader in Pakistan and chaos in Pakistan. How many think we will be safer with anarchy in the streets of a nuclear power?

Yeah... I know I don't worry at all about a Taleban-like Islamic Theocracy taking over in Pakistan in the vacuum if Musharrif is killed.

[Padraig18]

31. Bad, BAD Howard!

Shame on you for telling the truth. :P

[frustrated_lefty]

32. We're at code orange now?

This is safer?

Truth be told, the codes are a joke, but we are no safer than we were 2 years ago.

What news agency was it that snuck uranium into the US?

[HFishbine]

33. Question

When did Lybia offer to open its weapons programs to inspection? The answer may suprise you.

[frustrated_lefty]

39. Another question.

Where are Iraq's WMD?

[HFishbine]

59. Since nobody seems to know, the answer:

1999.

[BootinUp]

37. Well, notice Clark really doesn't say much about this

It's an argument where valid points are on both sides. Best not to get into a costly battle with small possible gains.

On the Libya thing, I really wouldn't give Bush much credit for it. There is a nice article explaining why Bush shouldn't get the credit in The Nation, I recommend it.

[farmers]

38. It's not about what staunch leftists think

To win the general election, it's about what moderates, independents, and the undecided think. And they do think we are safer.

[frustrated_lefty]

40. And the rest of the world

views us as a nation run by a psychotic madman. You think this makes us safer? Having traditional allies look askance at us because we are viewed as the single greatest threat to world peace?

[deminflorida]

41. This I agree with, I have lots of friends in Europe who thing we are

the single greatest threat to world peace.

[babzilla]

44. but what do your friends in florida think?

Are many in the "battleground state" taking a cue from Ghadaffi regarding the long-term effectiveness of the PNAC'ers pre-emptive war strategy?

Regarding your friends in Europe: *watch out*.
Sounds like you may be fraternizing with the blame-america-first crowd, or staunch leftists at the very least.

I don't want to alarm you Chris, all Ridge asks is for you to remain on a high alert status for Jeb!'s sake.

[thinkahead]

66. that's because they are being sold

the notion that we are safer.

We don't need a product from our pResidential CEO, we need the truth from a President. That's why what Dr. Dean is saying is so important. Until our leaders stop selling us crap, we are screwed.

[TheWebHead]

43. I agree with Dean...

but the point won't benefit him politically, or at least not more than it hurts him with a reactionary and ignorant sizable portion of the U.S. population. First off, they parsed his complete statement talking about hoping it would benefit troops serving in Iraq, but in the "unga bunga" reactionary world of politics, it's hard to argue "Unga Bunga... Saddam bad... Saddam captured... Bush good!"

The more thoughtful person would examine the political bad will the U.S. created throughout the world, the transfer of resources fighting the terror battle to a war in Iraq, the magnet that now draws those wishing to harm the U.S. to Iraq, where before they had to face a ruthless dictator that would have no part of their Islamic fundementalism, and the huge and ongoing cost both monitarily and in the lives of occupying soldiers... regardless of what Gadhafi might say to pander to a U.S. audience in the hopes that economic sanctions would be lifted.

[retyred]

45. It depends on the meaning of the word now

Now=Now, No

Now=5 years from now, Probably

Now=20 years from now, Yes

The question falls along the same line as are we safer now that the DC shooters are caught, in DC=Yes In Fla.=No

I for one am glad he's gone, do I feel safer now? As long as I don't have to deal with him 20 years from now, yes I do!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[quaker bill]

46. Moammar Gadhafi

has been pursuing better relations with the west for many years.

Due to sanctions it was in his interest to do so. More proof that the non-military option will work if given time. There is also a financial deal in the works here.

Libya has a large supply of 'sweet light crude oil' the type prefered by refiners for making gasoline. I expect the administration has its reasons for wanting to improve relations at this time. They probably involve more than WMD.

That being as it may, with 11 dead troops, too many dead Iraqi's to count, orange alert, and Al Queda on the rebound, I am not feeling safer.

[babzilla]

48. his sunglasses scream pursuing better relations

who's your buddy bush?

I'd love nothing better than to bunk with Noriega, really I mean it, now please don't bomb any more of my children please. Really I mean it when I say that the war on Iraq has taught me a lesson I will never forget.

Plus, I've got that Elvis sneer that the people of the U.S. just can't get enough of in an election year. Listen to me, look at my sunglasses and my Elvis sneer, I know what is best for your safety, vote 4 bush in 04 and you will never have to worry about WMD's again. Trust Moammar, I believe in better relations.

U.N. inspectors will see "we don't have anything to hide," Libya's Moammar Gadhafi says.

But if we did have something to hide we would have dismantled them to set a good example.

Gadhafi told CNN that other countries have set a positive example by dismantling weapons of mass destruction programs peacefully. He said he hopes other nations will follow his action.

[TeacherCreature]

47. I hope so

When was the last time we were affraid of Gadhafi? :scared:
ohhh big scary Moammar!

[hedda_foil]

49. The total lack of logic displayed in these threads is astounding.

Your candidate is a Rhodes Scholar, is he not? Such errant nonsense does him a huge disservice.

[CTLawGuy]

50. umm

Ghaddhafi had made his offer to drop his WMD last January Bush just ignored it until now.

[hellhathnofury]

52. Gadhafi is irrelevant and has been seeking better relations for years.

Lybian WMD programs, terrifying.

[bitchkitty]

53. Yesterday's demon, today's

unimpeachable source. Give me a break.

Hint - if it's CNN, it's probably propaganda. G is being handsomely rewarded for his actions, believe that.

[Deesh]

55. Safer or Not...

Dean's right. No one is safer because we pulled Saddam out of a sandhole. The Libyian "triumph" is a cynical piece of showboating by Blair and Bush to cover their own backsides. In Hadrian's words, "a decoration upon the void."

Many already-angry people in Arab cultures see Bush's assault on Iraq as a high-tech Crusade: the decadent West coming to smoke out the true believers of Islam. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz, etc. have been so arrogant that a Crusade is the most logical interpretation of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.

Our allies told us not to attack a sovereign nation. Our president should have listened.

Ridge cranks up the alarm code to Orange. More soldiers die in Iraq. Afghanistan is volatile and shakey. Musharraf (sp?) barely misses getting blown to smithereens -- for a second time.

This is "safer" ?

[goddess40]

57. Why would we be safer? Gadhafi must be being paid off.

Gadhafi is doing this because he is a wonderful guy or Gadhafi is doing this because he is getting a pay off? I choose the latter.

[mermaid]

58. Dunno About Dean

But I don't feel any safer with Saddam in custody. Do we forget it was OSAMA who actually attacked us?? Al-Queda is still operational. Saddam was little or no threat. Bush chose to go after Saddam because he felt it would be an easy victory, and make him look good, in the same way his failure to get Osama was making him look bad.

furthermore, going after Saddam just inflamed the Muslim world against us, creating fertile breeding ground for new terrorists...and alientated many of our allies, at a time when we need them most.

I'm sorry about the tragedy with the earthquake in Iran, but I'm not sorry it happened! Who was the first in there with humanitarian aid?? The United States was! Yeah, Muslim fanatics...take a good, long notice at how horrible we Americans are!!

[dsc]

61. 14 dead in Iraq this week alone

475 total dead. Safer my ass.

[Scott Lee]

62. "Safer" America suffers worst five days in Iraq to date

Check your news sources. This Christmas weekend has been the worst for "coalition" forces in a designated period since hostilities ceased months ago.

Let's hear more about how much safer we are since a lice ridden old man was pulled from a hole.

And Dr. Dean, thanks again....for being right.

[IndianaGreen]

64. Actually, Qadhafi first contacted the British government right after 9/11

Actually, Qadafi first contacted the British government right after 9/11, according to reports in the British press.

Saddam's capture is coincidental and had nothing to do with it!

If you really want to make the world safer, then you should push Israel to end the Occupation of Palestine!

UN watchdog to scrap Libya's nuclear project

IAEA team may fly to Tripoli at weekend

Ian Traynor in Zagreb and Vikram Dodd
Tuesday December 23, 2003
The Guardian

Libya was unusually honest and straightforward when challenged about weapons of mass destruction, a senior British official involved in the talks, which began in March this year, told the Guardian. The candour from the Gadafy regime convinced the UK that the problem could be solved by backroom diplomacy, rather than through the high-profile pressure applied on Iran.

Britain raised the issue of WMD in August 2002, when the then foreign office minister Mike O'Brien met Col Gadafy in Sirte, Libya, the first ministerial contact for 20 years. According to a senior official with close knowledge of the discussions, the foreign secretary, Jack Straw, had wanted his team to report back on whether Col Gadafy was prepared to change. The British officials decided that he was.

At the meeting the Libyan leader was challenged about WMD. The source said that he did not deny possessing them. He replied that his country was in a dangerous part of the world and had to protect itself.

The British source said the Libyans proved "much more cooperative" than expected. "Throughout the process they did not mislead us. When they had difficulties, they said when they had them and what they were. We formed a view we could deal with them, we could do business with them."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1112062,00.html

Why Gaddafi gave up WMD

By George Joffe
Centre of International Studies, Cambridge University

Although President George W Bush has sought to portray Libya's willingness to admit inspectors to examine its programmes of weapons of mass destruction as a success for American policy, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi may well feel that the success is really his.

After all, the next stage should be that, soon, the US will renew formal diplomatic relations - and that has been the Libyan objective since 1992, when United Nations sanctions were imposed.

Indeed, the Gaddafi regime has been trying for this since 1986, when US sanctions forced American oil companies to leave the country.

Although Libya's idiosyncratic leader had not bothered overmuch when the US broke relations in 1980, the departure of the oil companies also meant the loss of American oil technology upon which Libya relied.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3338713.stm

[madfloridian]

68. Ah ha, thanks IG. I am saving those tidbits.

Next time someone breaks out the Libya thing.
:hi:

[Terwilliger]

67. This country is no safer now than it was 1 month ago

it's probably worse

Dean may not have the answers, but he's right on this point: Saddam's capture was a PR move...just like the whole freakin' war.

[Mairead]

69. Dean's right--we are no safer. It's just silly to think we are.

Jeez, can we maybe be less partisan here? There are plenty HONEST reasons to reject Dean, we don't have to make things up!