Extremist Polarization in GD - P2004

[arendt]

GD - P2004 is a shining example of "extremist polarization".

In this forum, the most extreme elements of DU constantly
lob grenades at each other and dragoon the middle of
the road people into fighting for one side or the other.

As a member of the "radical center", I refuse to be co-opted
by either side. At the moment, I feel like a peasant (Columbian,
Vietnamese, whatever) in a town where the press gangs of
either side arrive, steal my resources, and demand my
unending loyalty under pain of reprisal.

To the schismatics on the far left:

We have a winner-take-all election system. It is mathematically
clear, that in such a system, third party efforts merely weaken
the party whose members are most likely to vote for the third
party.

Translation: a vote for Green is a vote for Bush.

Anyone who cannot vote for the Party's nominee (now that
Joe Lieberman is out) is hurting our effort against the BCF.

Face it, ALL politicians are in SOMEONE's pocket. Until we
get Full Public Financing, they are all dirty, money-grubbing
bastards. That's life. Stop saying you won't vote for someone
because they got $1,000 from XYZ corporation ten years ago.

Its also clear, that if MoveOn or TBTM or UFPJ can get an
issue into the Internet consciousness, there is some chance
that the mainstream press will pick it up, given the current
low numbers and generalized mistrust against the Bush
gang.

So, stop threatening, and go out and do something useful
for MoveOn. Then come back here and tell others to do
the same.

To the inquisition on the DU far right:

I am not voting against the Bush Nazis to elect the DLC Corporatists.
And, I am certainly not going to shut up when the DLC tells me
to. If a DLC candidate says something Bush-lite, I am going to call
him on it.

The reason the Democratic Party is energized today is that
a lot of individual people decide that the craven, appeasing
DLC people were not serving them. So they found people
who would serve them, like Dean and Kucinich.

When those brave individuals showed there was support for this,
the DLC people came, like scavengers after someone else's
kill. And now, they bark and snarl to drive away the real
hunters.

The strength of the Democratic Party is its openness and
TOLERANCE. Over time, people get the attitude, the
mood, the vibration that Democrats are sensible, thoughtful
people. Your misguided over-zealousness does not serve
the Democratic (capital D) cause.

Just as the DLC is trying to co-opt the Democratic message
and weaken it into the acceptance of the corporate state,
the Inquisition on DU is trying to co-opt our activism against
Bush into acceptance of the very same schmuks whose
cowardice generated our activism.

So, stop trying to intimidate us populists into silence. Take
your zeal out and do battle with the Bush zealots and the
fundamentalist crazos. You and they will get along real
well.

-----------------

If I haven't made myself clear: A plague on both your houses.

arendt

[bowens43]

1. A comment from the apathetic middle?

Lack of passion is part of the problem, not the solution.

[arendt]

2. I said "radical center" or are you so politically illiterate you never...

heard of that.

I have been all over this board, and volunteering
and working.

I am just sick of having all my work DISTORTED
and HIJACKED for someone else's gain.

Snide remarks like yours are exactly what I am
sick of.

arendt

[LandOLincoln]

21. Hear hear!

"Snide remarks like yours are exactly what I am
sick of."

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. "ALL politicians are in SOMEONE's pocket"

It's a good idea to compare just who is in whose pocket.

[redqueen]

6. Hear hear!

All candidates are NOT equal.

[arendt]

10. I agree. In November its "whoever" vs Bush. A no-brainer. n/t

n/t

[redqueen]

13. A no-brainer indeed.

After that, all bets are off. :evilgrin:

[arendt]

7. Fine. Just don't excommunicate me because I don't agree...

whether that's a mortal or a venial sin.

In the end, we vote on the total package. And, in
this election, the package from the GOP is a
sack of flaming dog poop.

The Democratic candidate is going to have to
come from Satan's own pocket before I vote
against him.

arendt

[Mairead]

11. But we get to choose who the Dem candidate is, so why don't we pick the

one who's in OUR pocket?

Why are we always told we must choose one of those who's offering the least? That's the part I don't get. Whose interest is being served when we're handed someone who's in someone ELSE's pocket?

[redqueen]

17. Not ours, that's for sure

But it looks like we haven't learned that lesson yet.

[cosmicdot]

20. agree

after so many have challenged the corporate Media and all the adjunct functions it abuses in failing to do its 4th Estate responsibility to society ... the sphere of influence of this Media is still so strong, that its tentacles snare and influence a good portion of those 'so many' ... the corporations win again through their ridiculous political power ... cd



http://www.collegiatetimes.com/

[Eloriel]

28. Well said, Mairead

[w4rma]

4. I think I agree with you, arendt. (n/t)

[WilliamPitt]

5. Best. Thread. Ever.

[arendt]

8. You are too kind, but thanks. n/t

n/t

[The Magistrate]

49. Your Motion Has My Second, Mr. Pitt

Mr. Arendt's comments here are extraodinarily good, and most helpful to all, and to the concerted effort we must make in the fall.

My hat is off to you, Mr. Arendt!

[oxymoron]

9. Agreed.

Excellent post.

[Bill McBlueState]

12. hear, hear!

Or here, here...

Anyway, seeing * on MTP really drives home what you're saying. It is an utter embarassment that the current occupant of the White House is our President. The man has the verbal communication skills of the average fourteen-year-old.

Progressives of all stripes need to do whatever it takes to get this disgrace out of our White House. Once a Democrat has the office, then it's time to start pushing for our specific issues.

[aldian159]

40. As the sibling to an average 14 year old

i resent that. Take it back, meany!

[MisterC2003]

14. Excellent post

Although I am generally on the leftward side of issues, I do agree with you that the leftists who are calling on third party votes are shooting themselves in the foot -- as you say, for all practical matters is a Bush vote.

I think much of the leftist rhetoric along those lines stems from a deep-set sense of alienation from the DLC position. I think the DLC folks STILL don't get the fact that it was people like Dean and Kucinich who made Dem candidates viable by bringing some excitement to the primary process. I fear that if the DLC succeeds in marginalizing the Democratic left they'll marginalize the center -- and themselves -- along with them. Leaving the Pubbies in full command of the playing field.

[Eloriel]

31. That very well could be their plan

[lovedems]

15. I love it!

Thanks! :)

[redqueen]

18. You love that the media-anointed 'nominee'

is virtually guaranteed to demoralize our base and give more confidence to the RW?

[lovedems]

23. Wow, you certainly read alot into my post. n/t

[redqueen]

25. Goldangit

Sorry... I thought you had replied to the post above yours.

Sorry!

[lovedems]

29. No prob!

:) We all make mistakes now and then!

Just don't do it again damnit! :)

[NWHarkness]

16. I totally agree

I was an early Dean supporter and enthusiastically voted for him in my caucus.

But I will give my wholehearted support to the party's nominee.

Loyalty oaths and third party threats are both counterproductive to our shared goal of liberating America from the Bush cabal.

[Iverson]

19. a modest dissent

When one stands outside the two mainstream parties, once may also feel like your Colombian peasant caught between far-right paramilitaries and FARC.

Surely we can discuss ideas such as third parties without resort to threats or intent of schism.

[arendt]

39. I understand your point, and wrote an earlier essay called...

Tories and Whigs.

I think the Dems have been captured by business
interests, just as the Whigs were. The American
people walked away from the Whigs; and they
will walk away from a DLC-dominated Democratic
Party. That is not a threat. It is a prediction
based on history.

But, a Russian private at the Front mentioning to
his Czarist officer that the Commies will get the
Czar any day now is, to say the least, not the best
timing. A lot of us here for Dean just want "Peace,
Bread, and Land." We don't want Stalinism. We just
want the Czar off our necks.

Can't the left learn to fight and talk at the same
time?

arendt

[Edge]

22. Agreed...

ABB 2004. I don't know why some adults find that so hard to comprehend, whereas the minors who frequent this site understand that just fine.

Who sounds the most grown up...?

[Virgil]

24. No Kerry. No Bush.

People say that so that you might see things in a different light. When I right in the man I think best for the job, I say that both candidates have their betters. More than that though, I say neither is qualified to be president.

I am sure voters will sting Bush. I just chose to sting them both. I cannot support Kerry for BBV alone or for his part in the WOD alone. He will have to win by people willing to vote on the lesser of two evils principle. If the Democrats have such a wonderful candidate, why would you think he could not beat the worst president ever?

[arendt]

38. Please, a non-vote is a vote for Bush

Look.

We now have proof that at least 25% of the US voting
age population is stupid enough to vote for Bush no
matter what. (Current polls still give him a hard core
of at least 30-35%.)

That means Bush only needs another 25% to win. Therefore,
he only needs to win 33% of the in-play votes to win;
whereas the Dems need 66% of the non-braindead vote to
win.

A 66% super-majority is very hard to come by. This game
is as rigged as the California supermajority to raise
income taxes.

Essentially, America needs a supermajority to evict the
GOP.

You are a member of the thinking class. I beg you to
think what you are doing. Thinking people do expedient
things when those are all that are available. IF it
comes to that in November, I will do the expedient
thing.

But the whole time, I will be working to rebuild a
genuine grassroots inside the Democratic Party.

arendt

[Armstead]

26. It's ridiculous that the center is considered "far left" today

Good post arendt.

You described what I see as the funbdamental problem today. To truly be for the center today is considered leftist.

The so-called "center" has been moved so far to the right that anyone who is even remotely liberal is branded as a "leftist." Alas, it's not only the GOP who do this. The DLC phonies also have participated in the overall marginalizing of the liberal base of the Democratic Party, and pushing away the more progressive elements.

The more uncompromising elemnts of the left also share responsibility for this, by not recoognizing the need to work within the system as it exists. In order to bring change, we ned to speak in the language of the mainstream.

I believe a clear liberal and progressive populist message is the answer. Regardless of whether one is moderately liberal or left progressive, we should all be moving in the same ditrection. Alas the Corporatists want to pull in the opposite direction, in my opinion.

[info being]

37. Anybody interested in Democracy is considered "Radical Left"

[NashVegas]

27. Great Post

I mildly differ in seeing it as a left v right thing, though. I think it's more like an "agree with me or else," thing.

[waldenx]

30. its not left/right its brave/coward

or is Senator Byrd an extreme leftist?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phillybri]

33. Awesome post....

n/t

[sweetheart]

34. The plague of houses divided

Might the plague on both houses to have enacted a
gerrymandering/redistricting mess that makes US democracy, in the
words of "the economist". "less democratic than north korea."
It further suggests that in such a 50/50 world, that no party
benefits from catering to moderates as they already are discounted
by the gerrymandering, and that the only way to win, under such
circumstances is to appeal to the radical extremes, to motivate more voters to turn out... rather than being universalist and concerned with the welfare of the country as a whole.

Hannah, Its exciting to see you angry, wise lady.

I suggest you refer the extremists to www.americanforum.net The open dialog with right wingers in the audience will surely give them a taste of how nice the DU shallow end is to play in. :)

[yowzayowzayowza]

35. Gotta cite?

"The reason the Democratic Party is energized today is that
a lot of individual people decide that the craven, appeasing
DLC people were not serving them."

I think * has ALOT more to do with it than the DLC.

[arendt]

36. I cite my own personal experience

For the umpteenth time, here is my story:

I went down to Sen Kerry's office before the
IWR vote. A staffer listened to me for maybe
45 minutes. This guy was just sort of an
"outreach" guy. I kept in touch.

I went back a second time and talked to a
higher level staffer who was more of a
political operative. I showed him how
Kerry was being portrayed on DU. I told him
that Kerry's timetable for opposing Bush
was way too slow to stop the Iraq War.

The operative then gave me the "we have
a plan and we know what we are doing lecture."
One week later, Kerry voted for IWR. And
I got fed up.

I was LONG SINCE pissed at Bush. It was
this experience of political expedience on
the part of Kerry that energized ME personally.

That's my cite. You want to disagree?

arendt

[yowzayowzayowza]

41. Sure.

Your experience does not speak for the attitude of Democratic voters as a whole. Your experience does not back up that assertion. Thank you.

[arendt]

44. Your style of counter-factual assertion reminds me of...

a certain other political party, who will remain nameless.

I know what I felt; and I had it confirmed by everyone I talked
to for over a year. I asked at anti-war rallies, at tablings,
at meetings. Everyone I spoke with thought the DLC was
worthless in the fight against Bush. They rolled over and
played dead in Congress. It took Kucinich to organize the
House to give a decent number of votes against the IWR.

Tell you what, I'm sort of busy fighting the Anti-Gay amendment
here in MA (debate is tomorrow, as is close of voter registration
for the primary). I will get back to you. But, I have an assignment
for you:

Why don't you cite me ONE article PRAISING what a fine
job the DLC did standing up to Bush BEFORE Dean and
Kucinich and Sharpton started getting some traction?

The DLC is a bunch of corporate whores as much as
Bush is the biggest threat to our country ever.

And, having said that, I will vote for whoever the Democratic
nominee is. But I will not stop organiziing grassroots against
the DLC.

arendt

[yowzayowzayowza]

45. Welp...

Your smear and foundationless claim remind me of "a certain other political party" as well... which I think is important in a discussion about our discussions.

[arendt]

53. How convenient. You are so faux "outraged" you won't take my challenge. n/

n/t

[yowzayowzayowza]

55. Challenge YOURSELF.

Your lame justification for "The reason the Democratic Party is energized today" is a personal experience dealing with Kerry on a single issue... and I'm the one guilty of "faux outrage" and failing the challenge? I'm ROTFLMAO!!! Whatever, dude. We're done. Thx anyway.

[Guaranteed]

52. Yeah, Bush DID- and the DLC helped them.

If the Democrats had given any kind of opposition to Bush's insane policies, MAYBE we wouldn't have had to bring out Dean and Kucinich.

"Gotta cite"....Pssh.

[dpbrown]

42. Thank you

Unless we figure out how to stop the inexorable slide into feudalism, at the end of the next 25 years things are going to look a lot like the world did about 600 years ago.

Fear Ends
Hope Begins
Kucinich 2004

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Iverson]

43. like this?

Whanne that Aprille with his shoures soote
The droughte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour ...

[Mairead]

48. Nah, more like

Myrie it ist whyl somer ylast
Wyth foweles sang
But nu neigheth wyndes blast
And weder strang.

Ei ei! What, thys nycht ist lang
Ond Ik wyth wel muchel wrang
Sorwe ond murne ond faste.

Man may longe lyves wene,
But ofte hem lyeth ye wrenche
Faire weder wendth ofte into reyn
And ferly maketh hys blench.


And more to Dan's thesis:

If manne him bithoghte
Binnwardlie and ofte
Hou hard ist the fore
From bedde to floor
Hou reweful is the flitte
From floor to pytte
From pytte to pyne
That never shal fyne
I wene non synne
Sholde hys herte wynne!

[Iverson]

54. Groovy. How 'bout this?

My lief is faren in londe -
Allas, why is she so?
And I am so sore bonde
I may nat come her to.
She hath myn herte in holde
Wherever she ride or go -
With trewe love a thousand folde.

[Tinoire]

46. Well!

That was certainly a refreshing post! Thanks.

Here's to the Liberation of the peasants! Of all people.

[Darranar]

47. Excellent post.

[Uzybone]

50. Bookmarked!

excellent post.

[oxymoron]

51. kick