The insane argument against raising the minimum wage

[BOSSHOG]

Conservatives, republicans, business and of course right wing hate radio say that raising the minimum wage will hurt small businesses because they will have to raise prices to pay employees. I would buy that argument hook line and sinker like any patriotic american who gets his "facts" from limbaugh if prices had not been raised one cent in the past ten years just like the minimum wage has not been raised in the past ten years. I guess thats just another example of the power of intellectual curiousity over just believing shit and by gawd believing the shit you are told to believe. It must be so tranquil in the mind of a conservative.

[benddem]

1. You're right

Oregon raised the minimum wage and raise it every year...I have yet to see the first McDonalds close shop.

[Squatch]

2. Where's the money going to come from to raise the min wage?

[cosmik debris]

8. Profits. n/t

[Squatch]

9. OK, so are shareholders of companies are going to allow

the boards of directors to cut into profits to pay for min wage hikes?

[cosmik debris]

12. Where are you going with this?

Get to the point.

[Squatch]

14. Can you answer my initial question?

[cosmik debris]

15. I don't know what you are trying to trap me into saying

But I don't want to play games. If you have a point make it, if not ...

[Squatch]

16. If you can't answer the question, then that's alright.

I understand.

[cosmik debris]

17. I don't see the point in answering your inane questions. n/t

[Squatch]

28. If you can't engage in discussions, why come to DU?

[cosmik debris]

29. If you can't explain your point, why come to DU? n/t

[beyurslf]

69. The poster said "Profits." Didn't that answer the initial question?

[donco6]

18. He's disputing that corps will cut profits.

He's saying they will simply raise revenue (prices). They'll preserve their profits by offsetting additional expenditures with higher revenue.

Of course, he could have just said that . . .

[Justitia]

20. Yes, also an option. Bottom line, wage expense comes from operating income.

I have no idea where this person was going w/his question. Maybe we need an accounting refresher for some folks around here.

[POAS]

22. And if I'm not mistaken are

a tax deductible expense.

[cosmik debris]

23. And basic Economics

Prices are ruled by "Supply and Demand" NOT OVERHEAD!

Profits are a function of operating costs. NOT PRICES!

Two very simple concepts.

[Justitia]

26. Yup, as a double major of accounting & economics, I concur. Silly arguments abound. -eom

[AJH032]

58. Not exactly

Profits are a function of costs and prices. Basic profit function for any firm: Total Profit=(Total Revenue)-(Total Costs), or Profit=(Price times Quantity)-(Total Costs). Clearly, total costs (in which the cost of labor is included) reduces profit.

A better point to argue is that in a monopsonistic labor input market, the minimum wage will not raise prices. In fact, it will increase production, wages, and employment, and decrease only firm profits.

[Squatch]

30. And where do you think operating income comes from?

Revenues. And, what generates revenue? Sales.

[Justitia]

31. Do you want to talk income stmts? Happy to do so! But, what is your original point?

I mean, we accountants LOVE getting into the details, but is that servicing your original point? Which was what, exactly?

You asked if a business entity had increased wage expense, where would that come from? Your respondent correctly responded profit (via the income stmt). What is your beef with that statement?

You then asked whether the "shareholders" or "board of directors" would "allow" that - and that makes no sense whatsoever.

So, what exactly is your point??

[cosmik debris]

32. And if you had passed Business 101 you would know

That the way to increase revenue is to increase sales.

Increases in prices frequently result in LOWER revenue because they reduce sales. It is called "Supply and Demand" Higher prices mean lower demand.

[Squatch]

33. Well, there you have it.

Every company is just going to magically "increase sales" to pay for the min wage hike.

Let's chase this rabbit through the looking glass (to mix metaphors)...

All companies are required to raise the minimum wage, so in order to deal with this extra outflow of cash to its employees, they're all going to increase sales.

Employees are happy with the extra money, because when they put on their consumer hats, they have to buy more...because all companies have "increased sales".

:freak:

[cosmik debris]

34. You're jumping to conclusions

Companies that can't increase sales will have to cut profits. Like I said in my first response. If you hadn't been trying to evade the issue you might have noticed that in my FIRST response.

[Squatch]

35. Every company that I've ever worked for would rather

lay off min wage employees than cut into profits.

[cosmik debris]

37. Reduced staff -> reduced production

reduced production -> reduced sales
Reduced sales -> reduced revenue
reduced revenue -> reduced profit.

Are you catching on yet?

[Squatch]

38. I submit: instead of reduced staff, "outsourced" staff.

or "off-shored" staff. Equal production, less cost.

[cosmik debris]

39. I guess that was your point all along

You wanted someone to set you up to say outsourcing would result from an increase in the Minimum Wage, but you were too incoherent to spell it out without help. OK, you're welcome.

Now back to basic economics. Businesses that control their production control their profits and their growth. Business that outsource their production can't control their profit or their supply chains or their growth rate. Outsourcing controls costs, but it also limits growth. Companies that want to grow know that they can't grow by paying someone else to do THEIR job.

And on the flip side, a raise in wages will plow more money into the economy and increase demand for goods and services. Remember Henry Ford, even in the depth of the Great Depression, made sure that every employee on his payroll could afford his product. That's just good business. I've never understood why giving more money to the rich is good while giving more money to the poor is bad. Perhaps you could explain that to me.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Aren't many minimum wage jobs a bit hard to send overseas?

How can a dishwasher in Mumbai help a stingy restaurant owner in Houston?

[ProudDad]

52. Thanks to the neo-liberal, neo-cons

The majority of minimum wage jobs are "service" jobs and can't "be off-shored".

There just aren't that many minimum wage production jobs left...

[Bridget Burke]

40. Were you one of the employees laid off?

Or did you do the laying off yourself?

[Justitia]

36. It's considered a "cost of doing business" - can I give you a real world example?

I'm sure you've run across a business that does not accept credit cards. Most likely, this company does not want to pay what's called an "interchange fee" to Visa or Mastercard (usually 3%), for the processing of credit transactions through the Visa / MasterCard system.

So, what happens?

The company refuses to accept the 3% "cost of doing business", does not accept credit cards and accepts that they will lose some function of sales due to not all of their customers paying by cash or check, therefore revenue is decreased.

If they accept the additional "cost of doing business", the 3% interchange fee, they consider this an operating expense to offset the additional revenues to be collected by increased sales to credit card holders.

Increasing wage expense works the same way as deciding to accept other G & A expenses. It is a cost of doing business.

This is probably more detail than you wanted, but really, when you start to deconstruct these silly arguments against paying minimum wage they dissolve into nothing substantive.

[Justitia]

19. How many small businesses have shareholders & boards of directors?

I'm an accountant and I surmise that your question was answered directly in the first response: "profits".

[pennylane100]

24. The board of directors

have no control over enforcing federal law.

[Justitia]

25. Exactly. Some are trying to conflate issues that are not related or relatable. -eom

[htuttle]

66. Prices are typically set according to what the market will bear...

...not by some arbitrary percentage above your costs.

If you raise prices instead of cutting profit margins (or reducing costs some other way), you will lose business to any competition that isn't raising prices. Even in a monopolized market, some customers will decide to just do without.

[napi21]

11. Ahhh, the greedy owners pocket?

I don't hear much about the dramatic increases in profits over the last 10 years. If a business isn't making enough money to be able to pay the employees a decent wage, they shouldn't be a business!

If the owner/officers can only get their millions each year by paying their employees $5.15/hr,they aren't doing their job! There is a social responsibility that accompanies operating a successful business.

[pennylane100]

21. The same place it comes from to pay million dollar parachutes

and all the other excesses heaped on companies board of directors.

[Richard Steele]

42. And I wonder which total $$$ amount is bigger?

The total amount that this will put into the pockets
of the working poor, or the total income INCREASE that
the wealthiest economic elites have recieved from
the policies of the B*sh era?

[beaconess]

63. Thanks - very important point.

You don't hear squawking and moaning from the right about how consumers are harmed by the ridiculous compensation packages that corporate executives get. But the minute the talk turns to ensuring that workers earn a liveable wage that will keep them from slipping into poverty, we suddenly get bombarded with fake concern about company profits and prices.

[1932]

60. Raising minimum wage will raise gross wages paid by .05 percent, IIRC

It's unlikely that that will have inflationary pressures.

Furthermore, so many factors go into determining a price point for a product, the amount of wealth held by minimum wage earners is unlikely to be the sole determining factor.

The one business that will be hurt most by raising the min wage, however, will be the credit industry. But that's going to be good for the economy and society.

[sendero]

62. It is absolutely going to come..

.. mostly from increased prices, perhaps a small amount from "profits".

So what? So now folks have to pay a few percent more for their lawn mow job, their fast food burger, their dry cleaning.

It won't "hurt small business" because everyone will be facing the same cost increases. Could the few percent rise in prices hurt demand some? Probably, but only a negligible amount.

There is no rational argument against a minimum wage hike, but I'd expect a conservative ("I'm on the lifeboat now so I'll step on your fingers to keep you from getting on") or a libertarian ("I believe in social darwinism but please play the game by my rules") to try to make one but anyone else ought to know better.

[krispos42]

70. Increased revenues, no Segway Polo League

With more money in the hands of kids and busy, low-wage-earning adults, more money will be spent on conviences like fast food, movie rentals, electronics, etc.

And if the white-collar types in upper management have to increase their annual salaries and bomuses by 8% instead of 9%, well, my heart bleeds for them. I know it will really make it harder to play in the Segway Polo League or realize their goal of having a plasma TV in every room of their house, but I guess they'll just have to suffer.



<edit: fixed subject line>

[athena]

75. Do you also have a problem with CEO's getting paid too much?

Do you (and shareholders) worry that the millions of dollars in wages and stock options, as well as the generous startup and retirement packages that go to CEO's, CFO's, COO's, and others at the top, cut into profits and result in higher prices?

Why is it that the public is so stingy when it comes to a small increase in the minimum wage but doesn't have a problem with rising wages/benefits at the topmost levels? Is a CEO really worth thousands of times more than a minimum-wage employee?

When the minimum wage goes up, workers are able to spend more, and sales go up. Any increase in the minimum wage goes directly into spending -- whereas increases at the top levels tend to go to offshore tax shelters, overseas vacations, etc.

The evidence does not back your assertions, by the way. Several states have had very high minimum wages for a while now and have been doing very well.

P.S. Are you also for universal health care? Now that would lower operating costs for small businesses.

[bobbolink]

3. There needs to be a book published of all the insane arguments

against ALL civil rights and poverty measures in this country.

It would be instructive, and maybe educational.

hmmm.... wanna take it on? ~~chortle~~

[beaconess]

64. The National Urban League has put out a great report knocking down minimum wage myths

RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE

The National Urban League

<snip>
The National Urban League has consistently supported an increase in the minimum wage, now unchanged since 1997 at $5.15 an hour. Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage is at its lowest level since 1955. Relative to other workers, the minimum wage is now less than one-third of the average hourly wage for all non-supervisory workers, the lowest it has been since this data series began in 1947 . . . Though the tide toward increasing the federal minimum wage is gaining momentum, opposition still persists. However, this opposition tends to rely upon myths and misconceptions about the impact raising the minimum wage will have on workers, businesses and the economy. In reality, time has shown that raising the minimum wage can benefit America’s workers, families and children, without negatively impacting business growth and the overall economy. In other words, there is no down side to raising the minimum wage.
. . .

MYTH: Raising the minimum wage would harm small businesses and result in fewer jobs

REALITY: The Fiscal Policy Institute conducted a study looking at the 10 states (and the District of Columbia) that have raised their minimum wage above $5.15 an hour since 1998. They found that these states had better job growth among small businesses, even in the retail industry (which is considered the most affected by a minimum wage increase). The benefits employers derive from an increase in the minimum wage include higher productivity, decreased turnover, lower recruiting and training costs, decreased absenteeism, and increased worker morale. Today over 20 states have increased their wage above the federal minimum; the majority have seen decreases, rather than increases, in their unemployment rate over the last year.

MYTH: Price-based indexing of the minimum wage in times of economic downturn or high inflation could cause further job loss and inflation.

REALITY: The federal minimum wage was enacted during the Great Depression, and since then eight increases in the minimum wage have gone into effect either during recessions, or shortly before or after recessions. Yet, increases during these periods have not been seen as economically damaging. Furthermore, inflation rarely exceeds 5 percent a year. Indexing the current $5.15 minimum wage to a 5 percent increase in prices would only increase it to $5.40, adding less than 1/100th of a percent to the national wage bill. Washington, Oregon, Vermont and Florida, are all states that index their minimum wage to prices. As a result, these states that have maintained purchasing power for minimum wage workers without creating adverse effects to the broader state economy.

http://www.nul.org//PressReleases/2007/Minimum%20Wage%20Report.pdf

[William769]

4. A good gauge for minimim wage should be

$1.00 less than a pound of ribeye.

[Deep13]

5. But, business customers will have more money with higher wages.

:shrug:

[Atman]

6. So EVERY American pays a couple pennies more so that working guys can eat

I think it's a pretty fair trade-off, though the greedy bastard republics will probably call it socialism. You know, Europe's been a total failure.

.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. funny

I work for a business that has 4 employees, including the owner. Not a big business, by any means. We all earn above minimum wage, and I've yet to see an increase in charges linked to a pay raise. BTW, we have an increase in charges a lot more than we get pay raises. The last time I got a raise was in 2004 when our state started requiring us to charge sales tax, and I had a lot of extra work to do. The other worker who has been there a long time got a raise back in 2003. Neither of us have seen one since, but our rates have gone up for our services, usually about $10 a service.

[POAS]

13. Have you considered a union?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

44. I used to be in the NEA

when I was a teacher. But I don't know of any union that would take on our shop, and I know I'm the only one who is pro-union there, so I don't see how it would do much good.

[POAS]

45. Too bad!

[ProudDad]

53. Check out

www.iww.org

[Ganja Ninja]

10. You'll notice that people who argue against raising the minimum

wage aren't making it or trying to live on it. I'd love to see one of them volunteer to live on minimum wage for one year.

[bobbolink]

27. Oh, my, NO! What would happen to their furs and yachts????

Think of all the poor, innocent furriers and yachtsmakers thrown out of work....

[SanCristobal]

57. I made $3 over minimum, and just lost my job.

I still think the minimum wage is worthless and harmful.

[krispos42]

71. Without more detail, a good response is impossible

Is it because it went to China?

If true, then the only way we can keep jobs here (without instituting protective policies like trade barriers) is to lower American wages to near-China levels.

Want to make $5 BELOW minimum wage?

Minnesota freshmen 6th district representative is a Repub and has publically proclaimed that God and Jesus Themselves put her in the office, and she thinks eliminating the minimum wage is a great fix for all that unemployment.

I think this is why we need to drastically raise the top tax bracket. I mean above 95%. I want rich people making over $5 million a year to start saying "No, I don't need a huge bonus or a 12% pay raise because I don't want to deal with the taxes." Do it to corporations, too, after you've closed the tax loophole that lets companies like Halliburton put their subsidiaries in off-shore tax-free nations so they can avoid income tax here in the US.

Senators Dorgen and Levin have some information on that.

The full list of companies involved is available in the GAO report. The list includes some of the biggest names in federal contracting and American business. For example:

Fluor Corporation: $932 million in federal contracts; 27 tax haven subsidiaries, including seven in Bermuda, five in Barbados, and three in Mauritius.

Exxon-Mobil: $707 million in federal contracts, 11 tax haven subsidiaries in the Bahamas.

Halliburton: $534 million in federal contracts, 17 subsidiaries in tax haven countries, including 13 in the Cayman Islands which does not impose a corporate tax.

WorldCom: $504 million in federal contracts; 10 tax haven subsidiaries, including four in Panama, three in Bermuda, and one in the Cayman Islands.

Tyco International: $206 million in federal contracts; 115 subsidiaries in tax haven countries, including eight in the Bahamas, 17 in Barbados, 55 in Bermuda, and five in the Cayman Islands.

According to FY2005 budget documents, as recently as 1943, U.S. corporations provided nearly 40 percent of total U.S. tax revenues, but now pay about seven percent. One tax expert has estimated that, on the average, large U.S. corporations today are paying an effective tax rate of 15 percent, less than half the 35 percent corporate rate in the tax code. Recently released data also shows that, in 2001, about half of all foreign profits of U.S. corporations were in tax havens.

A tax haven is a country that imposes no taxes or nominal taxes on corporate income. In conducting its analysis, GAO used an international list of 39 tax havens compiled by the Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development.

Dorgan said he will offer legislation to eliminate any tax breaks that U.S. multinational firms get when they set up offshore subsidiaries for tax purposes. Levin is preparing to introduce legislation to combat abuses associated with both offshore tax havens and illegal tax shelters.

<boldface mine>

With executives actively against salary increases, what will the corporation do with all the extra money?

Don't know, but they'd sure have a lot more to spend on infrastructure upgrades, benefits like retirement plans and health insurance, and lowering their prices to stay competitive.

[SanCristobal]

76. No outsourcing, I worked services.

It was a seasonal position with the possibility to become a regular after the holidays. I asked for (and got) $3 more then everyone else did, so when the time came to fire someone, I was the first cut.

I'm not particularly concerned, as it was a temporary thing to fill some time between undergrad and grad school, but it does show where the businesses priorities lie.

[krispos42]

77. Yeah, race to the bottom

Glad it wasn't a permenent job.

[loyalsister]

43. I heard it the other night

when I ordered a sandwich. The kid on the phone said that the price had gone up because minimum wage had gone up (in MO). The only reason I didn't cancel the order was because he would have thought it was because of the price, etc. But, I'll never order from there again.

[doc03]

47. Why would you not order from there again?

How do you know the kid on the phone was not getting minimum wage himself? I had a similar thing happen to me tonight, a customer at the carry-out remarked about the beer prices going up and the cashier said it was the raise in the Ohio minimum wage that went into effect Jan. 1 and if the Federal minimum wage is raised it would be worse yet. That lady is not the owner or manager she actually gets the minimum wage. I said aren't you happy you got a wage increase and she said her hours were cut and she makes less now. I have been for the increase but I am not really sure if it has the intended benefit if the employers cut employees or hours. I know a manager at a local coffee shop and she doesn't make much more than the minimum wage and she said she had to cut 2 employees since they didn't feel they could raise their prices and not lose business.

[loyalsister]

48. I assume he was repeating what he had been told..

He doesn't lose out if I don't order from there. The boss handing down the RW talking points does.

[ProudDad]

54. Sounds like another business that doesn't merit patronizing

Any business that gives their employees that excuse if full of shit... They even put their employees in the line of fire and if it's true that her hours were cut, that business SHOULD fail in favor of an owner who's more human!

[pampango]

46. For small businesses an increase in the minimum wage, if they are paying it

to begin with, will reduce their profit, unless they are able to raise the price of their product or service. But they can only raise their prices, if their particular market will allow that. So, they are able to raise their prices and make them stick, consumers will pay the higher wages of the business. If they can't make it stick, then the higher wages come out of profit.

If it is a large corporation, I have no sympathy for them. If it is a small family business, it would be a little more complicated.

[AJH032]

59. Agreed

your points are very accurate.

[DuaneBidoux]

49. It\'s not an insane argument--it is at least partly true (but read on....

).

When slavery was outlawed many businesses went under, because the economics of those businesses made it such that it could not survive if it did not have slave labor.

When child labor laws were passed some businesses went under, because the economics of those businesses made it such that they could not stay in business without the benefits of virtual slave labor.

When environmental and safety regulations became par for the course some businesses could no longer make enough profit to stay in business because the economics of their business wouldn\'t allow them to pay for their own safety and pollution measures (in other words, pay the true costs born by others of staying in business) and stay in business.

Some businesses may well go out of business because the economics of their business won\'t allow them to stay in business and pay a living wage.

I don\'t know how many jobs (if indeed any) will be lost. I don\'t care. The economy has always managed to find new work for those needing it, and if not, then the government should help provide the benefits or the education needed to go to the next level. Try this argument the next time some Freeper says \"jobs will be lost.\" You repeat: \"jobs were lost when they outlawed slavery, but they were shitty jobs.\"

[baldguy]

50. If that was true then the best jobs in America would be clerking at the corner gas station.

If the corporate monsters *need* to raise prises 1 or 2% to cover the real cost min wage increase, you can be sure they *will* raise prices 5 to 10% and blame the min wage.

[ProudDad]

55. The corner gas station owner

isn't the one making the big bucks. Their prices reflect an amazingly small profit margin.

It's the oil companies that make the bug profits...

[Mikey929]

51. Fair Minimum?

If increasing the minimum wage will not have any effect on businesses, then why not raise it to $15 per hour? Or $20 per hour? Wouldn't that be more fair to workers? How is someone supposed to live on just $7.00 per hour?

I think everyone has to agree that raising the minimum too much will affect a business. The question, then, becomes: what is that number?

Seems to me that if I have to pay more in salaries, then I am either going to try to recoup it by: a) increasing prices; or b) cutting out employees to reduce my total outlay of salaries.

[ProudDad]

56. How about a better vision of society?

1) Universal, Single-payer health care (Think fully funded Medicare for all). This would remove a MAJOR cost of doing business in the U.S.

2) A guaranteed minimum annual income (even Nixon was willing to discuss this one).

3) A strong government program to build affordable housing. This is a major impediment to a reasonable "living wage".

4) A minimum wage that reflects the actual cost of living in each particular region of the country, and yes, in the S.F. Bay Area that would in the range of $15-20 per hour until #3 kicks in.

5) A graduated and proportional income AND CORPORATE tax to pay for 1 and 2 and 3 above.

If you think this is expensive, think how much could have been done with the $550 BILLION Buckaroonis pissed away last year on *'s fucking little war and the bloated military...


on edit: If you can't envision it, it'll never happen...

[Mikey929]

61. Nice Dream

Sorry to be blunt, but this will never happen unless you want to live in a Socialist society where the government controls everything, including dictating how much money each of us can earn.

A minimum wage of $20 per hour? So $40,000 per year for the file clerk at the office? For the French Fry guy at every fast food place? How could that possibly work in the real world? There is no way businesses could ever do that.

As for businesses cutting costs with universal healthcare, where would the money come from for that? Higher taxes.

Raising corporate taxes achieves nothing because the companies just pass the cost along to the consumer in higher prices. So the individual ends up paying more.

[bread_and_roses]

65. Oh, right - let's just have Oligarchy - or better yet, slavery!

ever notice that the economy didn't come to any crashing halt the other times Minimum Wage was raised? Let's see, don't raise Minimum Wage, don't tax Corporations, Socialism means "the government controls everything"..., no investment in low-cost housing, no National Health Care....I guess we are to let "the Market" determine all that? Worked so well at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, didn't it - no Min Wage, no safety regs for workers, no environmental regs, child labor, contaminated food and medicine - what a paradise that was! Let's just go back to that.

[Mikey929]

67. Chill

So it's either one extreme or the other for you.

I didn't say raising the minimum wage would kill businesses. I said raising it TOO MUCH would kill businesses. If every fast food worker makes $40,000 a year then you're going to see businesses close up left and right. Where would the money come from to pay it? And what do we tell those educated hard-working people who finished college to get a decent job when the Fry Guy is making the same amount they are? Why go to college if you can flip burgers and earn $40,000 a year?

You seem to think that the government can just get money for anything it wants. That money has to come from somewhere. Why don't we all just pay 100% of our salary to the government and then the government can decide what amount we should each get back. That seems fair to me.

[krispos42]

72. In the Bay Area, that's not unreasonable

A small house that needs a fairly major overhaul cost damn close to a million bucks. That's 25 years at minimum wage. Plus interest, of course.

25 years of current minimum wage is about $260,000, which is consistant with a decent house in a decent neighborhood in most cities, excluding the major, expensive cities like New York and San Fran.

These ridiculous prices will continue until the urban and suburban people say "Screw this" and move into the Midwest. But the trend is exactly opposite that, with the heartland being drained to the coastal states. Right into the path of expensive beachfront property, hurricanes, earthquakes (west coast), volcanoes (Washington) and tsunami.

And considering that 40% of all real estate transactions are by people that are buying their 2nd or more home, crushing the wealthy in this country will strongly discourage the 'day trading' style of real estate management. Buying houses for six, eight months, then selling them for profit to buy more houses only raises the prices out of reach of most people, forcing them to rent from... the rich people buying homes for six, eight months then selling them for profit! Most of them are buying and selling properties they never even see.

[ProudDad]

73. It IS a nice dream and it's also easily possible

Socialism is NOT about dictating how much each of you can earn. Socialism is a political-economic doctrine that, unlike Capitalism which is based on competition, seeks a cooperative society in which the means of production and distribution are owned by the government or COLLECTIVELY BY THE PEOPLE.

In this silly economy, we the People subsidize big business in order to enable them to exploit the hell out of us. That's what sucks. Currently the oligarchs are the ones who dictate how much money you can earn, where you can afford to live and even whether you live or die...

The $20 per hour is what it would take for a LIVING WAGE here in the Bay Area. This is primarily because of the BLOATED rent/housing costs here. Same with NYC, etc. Where do you live? $40K a year around here ain't SHIT!

That's NOT what it would take if the govt. could take the lead an employ people in building/subsidizing low-cost housing for folks - a sort of WPA for housing. With reasonable housing costs, a minimum annual income of less than $40K per year might be possible.

As for health care you're damn right it would come out of higher taxes. Higher taxes for the ultra-rich who've gotten a free ride for the last 25 years. Higher taxes for the corporations who've gotten a free ride for the last 25 years.

Raising corporate taxes DOES achieve something. First it allows the PEOPLE to get services instead of the current system of massive subsidies for big business and shit for the rest of us. So what if they pass through some of their costs...if you're the free market fundamentalist you sound like you'd know that supply and demand would take over. If they raise their prices too high noone will buy their crap and they'll go out of business. They'll just have to take it out of profits, maybe just make 20% profit per year instead of 30%...poor babies...

And if prices go up a little on extras (exclusive of food and essential goods) so what? Does the American people really need to buy half the crap they buy???

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WCGreen]

74. When I started as an accountant back in the 1970's....

Labor costs, not including the back office staff, were about 25% to 30%, including taxes...

Now, labor is about 15% to 20% of the cost...