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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:40 AM
Original message
article in The Nation about Wesley Clark.
I have seen threads today calling out Edwards on his IWR vote and his plans for getting us out of the quagmire in Iraq. These threads appear to question his motivation or his dedication in regards to the situation there. These threads seem to be sparked by supporters of a certain candidate. I would like to offer this article as a source of information regarding the good General.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031215/taibbi

I would also state that Mr. Edwards is my close second choice for '08. Also, my distrust of the General grows the more I read about him, so there is no love lost there.

Up front, I will say that many of the Generals supporters have placed me on ignore, so I may not be able to respond to some of their potential reactions to his thread. Since I have not exercised this option, they are free to post these reactions, although a rebuttal will not be forthcoming from me.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. So, Matt Taibbi does not like Clark. It is his right and privilege.
I was not where he was and do not know why I should trust him on his word. I have read many other articles by him that were totally biased on other subjects.

At least, Clark has policies he can explain and with which I can agree or disagree.

Edwards has slogans which seem good on paper, but when will he explain what lies behind these slogans? There never seem to be an answer to these questions.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. 'By their fruits ye shall know them...
..Do men gather a bunch of grapes from thorns, or from thistles figs?'

Edwards has a voting record - so we know where he really stands when the rubber meets the road.

Clark's a little more difficult to discern.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. That may be true as it relates to Edwards: he supported
Bush the entire way. Just check out his record.

As for Clark, in absense of a vote record, I can look at his life's record and it matches with what he says.

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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. the value of the article for me...
was that it lead to research into the Generals past and things that I find questionable in a man whose supporters say is such a "peace candidate".
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Edwards does seem to be the whipping boy of the day...
Go figure!

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. But when that story came out in December 2003
Clark was the whipping boy for many. This is an ancient blast from the past. In fact this very story was at the center of a dozen or so 100 plus post marathons on DU during the 2004 primary season.

Here is one of the early rounds on Democratic Underground:

Clark's True Colors - is he the one Eisenhower warned us about?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=811974&mesg_id=811974

Here is one of FrenchieCat's posts from that thread, blowing some of Matt Taibbi's cover:


Matt Taibbi's True Colors

For years now, I've turned to The Nation mostly for its terrific cryptic crosswords. But they also print articles, and, from following a Clark list, I learned that the current issue of the mag features a remarkably pointless pile of drivel allegedly concerning Wesley Clark, and written by one Matt Taibbi. Although the best part of the magazine, the puzzles, regrettably, don't seem to be available online. Even more regrettable, the drivel is.

The article suggests that Taibbi's wholly negative view of Clark and his supporters comes from his observation of the campaign; in fact, it goes back several years. Through the late 90s, Taibbi lived in Moscow where he co-edited and helped write an English language magazine called The eXile. The eXile was, to put it mildly, opposed to the war in Kosovo. In his writing Taibbi was an open apologist for some of the most notorious crimes of Slobodan Milosevic and his associates. Taibbi wrote a long article implying that the January 15, 1999 massacre of Albanian civilians at Racak never happened. The evidence of a massacre at Racak is extensive; according to Human Rights Watch, which took extensive testimony from survivors:


Precisely how the twenty-three men were killed by the police on the hill outside of Racak remains somewhat unclear. But witness testimony, as provided here, and the physical evidence found at the site by journalists and KVM monitors, makes it clear that most of these men were fired upon from close range as they offered no resistance. Some of them were apparently shot while trying to run away.

Journalists at the scene early on January 16 told Human Rights Watch that many of these twenty-three men also had signs of torture, such as missing finger nails. Their clothes were bloody, with slashes and holes at the same spots as their bullet entry and exits wounds, which argues against government claims that the victims were KLA soldiers who were dressed in civilian clothes after they had been killed. All of them were wearing rubber boots typical of Kosovo farmers rather than military footwear. It is possible that some of these men were defending their village in the morning and then went to the Osmani house once they saw the police entering the village. However, they clearly did not resist the police at the time of their capture or execution.


The massacre at Racak plays a prominent role in the indictment of Milosevic and his cronies for crimes against humanity. But Taibbi claims it was all a con job. To support this fantastic charge he offers no study of the evidence, but simply an examination of the resume of one witness, an American diplomat named William Walker who, as an official of the Kosovo Verification Mission of the OSCE, was among the first foreigners to enter Racak after the atrocities. Mr Walker, it seems, was previously stationed in Central America during the Contra War and related conflicts of the 1980s. Therefore, he is obviously CIA, proving clearly that the Racak massacre must have been a CIA trick. If Mr Walker were the only witness, that would be an ad hominem argument, but at least an argument. But since Walker 's statements were backed by many statements of survivors and other international observers, his own background is simply irrelevant.


The first armed NATO intervention in Yugoslavia took place at the end of August, 1995. The primary cause was the Srebrenica massacre which took place the preceding month, but the immediate spark was an artillery attack on the Sarajevo market that caused over 100 civilian casualties. Another Taibbi article suggests that this attack was staged by the Bosnians, as a plan to obtain NATO support by murdering their own people and then framing the innocent Serbs.


Despite its moral posturing about Serb ethnic cleansing, NATO itself has provided air cover for the same kinds of atrocities it now accuses the Serbs of committing. In 1995, NATO planes, responding to what many now suspect was a Bosnian-government-staged massacre of Muslim civilians, attacked and crippled the Bosnian Serb army with punishing air assaults.


It is true that this claim has been made by such as Radovan Karadzic, not the most credible of sources, but good enough for the Nation. But it was categorically rejected by the UN (see paragraphs 438 - 441 of link) for good reasons, as discussed by Richard Holbrooke ("To End A War", ch 6). It is known that five shells were fired. Four failed to detonate, so analysis of their impact permitted a clear identification of the point of origin, which was in Serb-controlled territory. For the Bosnians to have fired the fifth and fatal round, it would have been necessary for the Bosnians to have known ahead of time exactly where and when the attack would come, in order to disguise their own shell as part of it.


Taibbi's further complaints against NATO ranged from the openly racist ("The Serbs are one of the tallest, most beautiful European tribes. Somalis, too, are tall and elegant, as are the Tutsi, who actually call themselves `The Tall People.` Why are the most beautiful tribes being wiped out by the squat and ugly?") to the highly personal ("Until a few weeks ago, Western men in Moscow could always count on being given special attention by that most precious of God's creatures, the Russian dyevushka.... Not now. Thanks to the NATO airstrikes, the White God has become the White Devil. All bets are off.... The days of E-Z sex and multiple partners in a consequence-free environment are over, thanks to America's sexually-demented president. Now, dyevs don't swallow. They just spit. All because your stupid country had to go 'n' bomb the Serbs.")

The general practice, rather conspicuous above, of going the extra mile to be as offensive as possible was a habit of Taibbi and The eXile. One Taibbi essy, under the title "God Can Suck MY Dick", says:


After 9/11, I'm certain: every last person who believes in God should be swept off the streets, captured with big nets, thrown into maximum-security institutions, and forced to knit oven mitts and play Lite-Brite with each other until their deaths.

Despite what you may think, God people are not just incredibly stupid. They're dangerous. They make possible every kind of human idiocy. Why? Not just because they tend to be zealots who try to force their point of view on other people (indeed, most religions consider non-believers lost or damned); not just because they do things like level the World Trade Center or strap dynamite to themselves and walk into abortion clinics to kill teenage girls they don't even know. No, the big problem with God people is that they make patent absurdities a central fact in the lives of entire populations, so that if anyone by chance wants to live a reasonable life, he has to do so in private, apologetically, like a man walking half bent-over through a crowded subway car because he has an erection in his pants.


Some of The eXile's outrages, such as the above piece, at least make a point. Others are adolescent transgressions of the worst kind, offensive for the sake of being offensive, without actually saying anything interesting, or making any noticable satiric point, or even being tastelessly funny. Certainly after a taste of The eXile, it is unsurprising that Taibbi adopted the persona of a porn director for his 'research' into the Clark movement.


As for the article itself, there's little to say. There are few facts to debate; Taibbi deals mainly in pointless anecdotes and personal opinions. He begins by looking deep into the eyes of various candidates. In the eyes of Kucinich, he finds limpid pools of sincerity consistent with Kucinich's standing as the writer's chosen favorite. In Lieberman, he finds humor - perhaps the gentleman from Connecticut also finds it clever to pick out random strangers and talk to them about having sex with their mother's corpse. In Clark he sees nothing, although the nothing seems to resemble a turtle, and there's a picnic basket in there somewhere. See, it's a metaphor, and if you're too clueless to understand, just do what Matt would do: read the article over again, changing every noun to 'penis'.


Matt then goes undercover to attend meetups with Clark supporters, who make valiant attempts to be polite to him although he is telling bizarre lies that they probably see through. As a result of this daring investigation, he is in a position to report that Clarkies want to defeat Bush and consider that more important than memorizing every detail of Clark's platform. Not many reporters could dig up this discovery in a month or so of research - most would take more like 5 minutes.


Taibbi is at pains to challenge Clark's bona fides as an anti-war candidate. "It is not easy to explain how a man who voted for Reagan and Nixon, was a speechwriter for Al Haig, worked in the Ford White House alongside Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and was a passionate supporter of the Vietnam War could become a darling of the liberal antiwar crowd. Thirty-five years ago, hundreds of thousands of people took angrily to the streets, universities were taken over and a sitting President was hounded from the White House because of people like Wesley Clark.... o person who found the Iraq war morally repugnant could have gone on television and talked sunnily about how this or that weapon was ravaging Iraqi defenses. I remember watching Clark on CNN, and at one point he was actually playing with a model of an A-10 tank-killer airplane, whooshing it back and forth over a map of Iraq, like a child playing with a new toy on Christmas morning. A person who was genuinely opposed to the war as wrongful killing would be sick even thinking about such a thing." True, Clark is opposed to fighting the wrong war for the wrong reason in the wrong way, but that isn't good enough for Matt. Any true anti-war man would be opposed to all wars - except for those fought by tall and beautiful tribes to eliminate the unpleasantly short and ugly.


Taibbi also drops broad hints that Clark's 'true colors' involve some sort of military-electoral coup. Clark is compared variously to Caesar, Cincinattus, and Nixon. And what does the would-be dictator like to eat? Napoleons - hint, hint.

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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't have you on ignore
Matt Taibbi loves to smear Democrats, and below in another post you will find a little background on his other writings.

But why stop quoting him belittling Wes Clark? I puled this from the archived DU thread I linked to below. This one doesn't have a lind to the full story but I'm sure it would be easy to google by searching for a phrase. Here is Matt Taibbi talking about Howard Dean from another artical of his in "The Nation":


"The footprints of some schlock Democratic Party Svengali--probably Trippi--were visible at every turn in the Dean voyage. There was the Grassroots Express itself, of course. This was one of the details that I found hardest to reconcile with the widespread belief that Dean is "different" and "not a typical politician." When you name your campaign vehicle the Grassroots Express, while one of your opponents (John Edwards) has a bus named the Real Solutions Express and a candidate from a rival party (John McCain) four years ago had one called the Straight Talk Express...well, you haven't worked very hard to be different.

Then there was the Imageering 101 political staging, a subject of much snickering in the press pool. At most every stop Dean had a statistically accurate multicultural microcosm await his arrival on stage, usually against a background of a giant American flag. Milwaukee, the second stop on the tour, was the most painful: seventeen supporters of various races (in proper proportions: three blacks, two Hispanics, etc.), frozen and seemingly afraid to move or make a face against the backdrop of a mammoth Old Glory. Watching them wait for Dean gave me shivers; they looked like sausages nailed to a giant red, white and blue crucifix.

There were other details: the plastic grass, the strange fact (compelling to several reporters) that Dean rolled up his sleeves in public but rolled them down and buttoned them when relaxing on the plane, the odd fuzziness and vacuity of certain parts of Dean's stump speech... It was not lost on some of us, for instance, that his wooden campaign slogan, "Take America Back," was also used by two other former Trippi candidates: Gephardt in 1988 and Jerry Brown in 1992. Much of Dean's public presentation, in fact, is a rehash of other Democratic campaigns. He makes a joke about Bush being "all hat and no cattle," which was a laugh line in Gephardt's campaign speech earlier this year. And his closer line, "You have the power! You have the power! You have the power!" (delivered in the style of Jesse Jackson's "Keep Hope Alive!" bit) was a Gore line in 2000. "


Oh, you say you like John Edwards? OK, here is Matt Taibbi waxing poetic about John also in the Nation:

"...In the epic novel of this election, whose tragic theme is the unavoidable humiliation of the sane in a kingdom of idiots, Edwards appears as Kucinich's foil, his Dostoyevskian opposite. For every step Kucinich takes, Edwards is seemingly there to remind him that a man cannot succeed in a world designed for children.

The Southern Senator is a kind of anti-Kucinich: tall, handsome, bubbly, seemingly not sure why he is running for President. The ideas that drive his candidacy seem like items from a sales-drive PowerPoint presentation, or frat dares; the Concord town hall deal is a good example. Edwards has pledged to hold more town halls in New Hampshire than any other candidate, 100 to be exact. (I asked an Edwards staffer if the candidate was planning on eating 100 goldfish at each of his 100 town hall meetings. He had to think about it, then said no.)

The sheer enthusiasm and youthful energy implied by the 100-meeting stunt is quite openly designed to be a central part of the Senator's appeal. He is the Young candidate, the Hustle candidate; you're voting for his tan and his tie flapping in the wind.

In Concord, the Edwards ground staff worked out another stunt designed to bring people into the lunchtime meeting in front of the State House: They gave away free hot dogs. The booth where the hot dogs were being given away had a sign next to it that read as follows:


Free Puppy Love Hot Dogs!

I went to the front of the line and got my hot dog. At the booth I asked the volunteers if maybe the choice of the word "puppy" wasn't a little unfortunate.

"Why?" a twentysomething woman with a Southern accent asked.

"Well," I said, "when I'm eating meat, I'm not sure I want to be thinking about puppies."

She frowned and stared at me like I was crazy. "But people like puppies," she said, seeming hurt..."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031027/taibbi





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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Tom, that is beneath you to do that.
This is turning into a mud pit here, Julie was right when she said that.

If Dean were running, it would be fair game. But the OP is not a Dean supporter, and this is just too much.

I could find anything by Matt Taibbi, and if this hate Edwards hate Kerry hate Dean stuff continues....it is going to escalate.

I know several are readying posts in case it does continue.

If Clark is a good enough man, and he decides to run...he will stand tall and take it just like everyone else did here in 03 and will have to do now.

Clark supporters have been attacking Edwards all day here today. Shame on you guys.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Geeze MF I can't believe this reaction
I think the words of Matt Taibbi damn Matt Taibbi and no one else. I think it is important for readers at Democratic Underground and every other Democratic site to understand the agenda of some writers who claim to be progressive journalists so that they will not be taken in by them. I bet you good money that the majority of readers who open this thread have no idea who Taibbi is or what type of "journalistic work" he has done in the past. Democratic Underground has grown tremendously in the last three years, a lot of people don't remember who Matt Taibbi is or what he wrote about during the primaries. Seeing him published in the Republic tends to lull one into thinking he can't be a hatchet artist, if one does not know better. I think it is precisely seeing how he delivers the same ugly posing as cute smears against a number of good Democrats that delivers home the point that he is not to be trusted.

I have said so repeatedly on this space that I am a big fan of Howard Dean and that Dean's supporters have done great work for the Democratic Party and our nation. You even redirected Dean supporters to a piece I wrote about attending a Democracy for America event. I can point you to Blogs I have done here and at kos defending Howard Dean from his enemies in the past. Taken together, the slams Taibbi delivered against Clark, Dean and Edwards should serve us all as fair warning about him. He has not gone away. I expect him to still be writing about politics during the 2008 Presidential campaign. If you think it so upsetting to see Taibbi quoted attacking Dean, or Edwards, than why did you not raise a peep when you saw Taibbi quoted attacking Clark? My point is to discredit Taibbi. I am not the one who cited him to DU's readership as an interesting person to read by starting a whole thread to call attention to something that was written over three years ago by him.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. no you do not...
and your posts are always well reasoned and do not appear to be incendiary.

the article posted simply leads to research into some of Clarks past and some of his actions that I find questionable. I certainly do not think that anyone that supports this man can then question another Democrats stand on Iraq or war in general.
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Tinksrival Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. How much do they pay you?
Do you have to work weekends too? At least you have google. Good luck and happy fishing! :)
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. do you respond to the criticisms of other candidates in such...
a manner?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
11. That's ok
I am on ignore of many of them now.

I can still post threads though when I feel things are being done unfairly.

I will do so, too

I figure it this way, it must be a way to attack others and not allow them to respond to the thread or the post.

Suits me fine. I intend to do some serious research.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. it does not really bother me...
it is just funny to see them post a question to me, knowing i can't reply. while i may not like what some say about my candidate (a generally unpopular one around here), i like to keep my options open.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. If the Edwards bashing continues, I will have some articles ready.
So even if I am blocked from replying as the attacks are launched, I can still post my thoughts in a separate thread.

I had not made my decision for 08 until I saw the attacks here today. It is painful, just like 2003 was.

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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. i find it amusing that, while...
Edwards, Obama, Clark, etc have voting records and history, Clark was basically a repub until a little while before the '04 elections. oh well. the bashing will go on, mark my words.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. So, how does voting for Al Gore in 2000
and Bill Clinton in 1996, and Bill Clinton in 1992, make one "basically a Repub until a little while before the 2004 elections?" How does being the top advocate and defender and implementer of Clinton/Gore policies inside of the military during their entire administration make one "basically a Repub"? It is that type of sleazy twisting of logic that makes your creditibility in critiquing Wes Clark so poor. It makes it look like you have an axe to grind. If you want to say that you won't vote for a PResidential candidate who voted for Ronald Reagan, fine, just say that. People can argue the point, accept the point, or ignore the point. That is a fact based argument. There were people who supported James Webb's opponent in the Virginia Democratic Party Senate Primary for exactly that reason. Actually they opposed Webb because he WAS a Republican, and had served in Reagan's Administration, and had supported Allan for Senate in 2000. I suppose you are among those who wish Webb had lost the Democratic primary to a "real" Democrat.

But you are writing here in the same slimey way that Taibbi does, which I suppose should not surprise me. You just assert because you can. You call Clark basically a Repub until a little while before the 04 elections, spun out of your own distaste for him, and then you complain about "bashing". What you wrote qualifies as "bashing". Now if you want to concentrate on why it is such a terrible liability that Clark has not held prior elective office, that would not automatically be "bashing". That would start out as factually correct, and you can make your case as to why that matters so much to you, and others can make their case as to why it does not. That would be more akin to arguing about whether or not it matters now that a person who did hold elective office co-sponsored the Patriot Act and the Iraq War Resolution.

Do you really not believe in the category of Independent voter? Do you think that any Independent who voted for a Republican at some point many years earlier, who voted for Democrats after that, thereafter wears a scarlet elephant for life and not only do their votes for Democrats not count, not only are they not called what they were "Indepenedents", but instead they are basically Repubs?
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. attending repub fundraisers...
praising members of the bush admin...voting for Nixon, Reagan and Bush 1.

basically a repub before the '04 elections.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Prove that he attended repub fundraisers. You can't.
You can't because you only know of one, the same one in fact that you base your attack on that Clark praised members of the Bush Administration. Clark spoke at one Republican fundraiser, and then a week later (it may have been two) he spoke at a Democrcratic Fundraiser. That's your whole list, isn't it? One time is singular. So again you are inflating your attack against Clark. It is a pattrern. You play very loose with your words.

So most of your argument rests on a thin reed. The praise for members of the Bush Administration and those fundraisers all turn out in fact to be one speech that Wes Clark gave in the same month in which he appeared for Democrats. Clark was recently in the private sector after serving 34 years in a non partisan role for America. Both of the fund raisers he spoke at were in his home town of Little Rock, where Clark was reestablishing himself after serving his nation abroad.

By the way you might be intersted in knowing that Clark was in active discussions with the Democratic Party in Arkansas in 2001, not with the Republicans:

"New York Times
National Briefing | South: Arkansas:

A General For Governor?
Published: October 3, 2001

Secretary of State Sharon Priest will not run for governor next year, adding to speculation that the former NATO commander Gen. Wesley K. Clark, left, might. Ms. Priest's decision, announced on Monday, leaves Democrats without a challenger to Gov. Mike Huckabee, a Republican who plans to seek re-election in 2002. The state Democratic chairman, Ron Oliver, said General Clark, who retired from the Army last year, met with him two weeks to discuss the race, but he declined to elaborate."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9C0CE1DB113DF930A35753C1A9679C8B6 3&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics %2fPeople%2fH%2fHuckabee%2c%20Mike

Also this:

The Nashville News
Thinking ahead to 2006
November 9, 2004 - No reporter cited
LITTLE ROCK (AP)

"With the president and Sen. Blanche Lincoln's re-elections secured, some hopefuls may already be thinking about big statewide races to be run in two years.

After Tuesday's general election, the chairman of the state Democratic Party trumpeted Democratic gains in the Legislature and the 5-1 dominance the party retained in the state's congressional delegation.

"Our next priority,'' Democratic Party chief Ron Oliver added, "is to win back the Governor's Mansion and the office of lieutenant governor in 2006.''...

...When Army Gen. Wesley Clark retired to his Arkansas home in 2001, Democrats recruited him to run for governor and a private citizen started a movement to draft him to run for the U.S. Senate. At the time, Clark said that he had a better feel for national issues and that the executive branch might be a better fit for his take-charge mentality."
http://www.nashvillenews.org/index.php/c omments/885/

As to that speech at the one Republican fundraiser, Clark was asked about that in an interyiew recently:

"Do you think that if you run for president, the 2001 speech you delivered at a Republican Party fundraiser in Pulaski County, Ariz. , will come back to haunt you?

Clark: Why should it? That's just part of the freak show. If you read that speech, you'll see that what I actually do is criticize the directions of the policies of the (Bush) administration. All I did was put a little honey on it by complimenting Colin Powell and some of the people who were in the administration a couple of months after the administration took office. But I never complimented George Bush."

http://media.www.browndailyherald.com/me dia/storage/paper472/news/2006/11/28/Cam pusNews/Q.A-With.Clark.i.Havent.Said.I.W ont.Run.For.President-2509968.shtml?sour cedomain=www.browndailyherald.com&MI IHost=media.collegepublisher.com

I think that's a good summary. You might as well say that a long list of Democratic Senators are basically Repubs because they just said some positive things about Robert Gates at his Senate confirmation hearings. Clark didn't praise Bush directly but other leading Dems did exactly that after 9/11. Does that make them all "basically Repubs" also?

And of course you again conveniently ignore Wes Clark's support for Bill Clinton and Al Gore which, last time I checked a calender was a lot closer to 2004 than a vote for Reagan. By the way, what makes you say Clark voted for George Besh Senior? Have a link for that? Because I never found one, and I've searched. You are yet again being deceptive about facts. We know Clark voted for Reagan and Nixon, how? Right, because Wes Clark told us. Show me where he said he voted for Bush 1 or stop asserting that as fact. And as to Nixon and Reagan, George McGovern endorsed Wes Clark for President in 2004, and Jimmy Carter called Wes Clark and urged him to enter the Democratic race for President. I think those men have some credibility in determining how relevent a vote for the men who defeated them for President was in deciding who was a good democrat in 2004, don't you?



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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. did he praise members of the bush admin? nt.
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xkenx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Asked and answered. Do you realize that you actually do a service to Clark supporters
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 11:56 AM by xkenx
by your disingenuous,uninformed, or outright lying comments here? You keep threads like this alive with FACTUAL replies by Clark supporters. Viewers not knowledgeable about Clark get an eyeful of Clark's accomplishments and positions. Plus they get to see how Clark is regularly smeared by those without and ounce of morals or intellectual honesty. Thank you for your unwitting contributions.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. i especially like when the uninformed can...
click on progressive links to reasons not to support Clark. We shall see how well he does. Maybe better than last time? Nah.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Considering he kicked Edwards ass in five of the eight races in
which they both competed...

Oh - but you probably don't believe that because the media didn't tell you so, do you?

:eyes:
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. He was born a Democrat.
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 12:37 PM by Clark2008
His father was very involved in Democratic politics in Chicago.

If you REALLY want to go back to what Clark was doing in the 70s, fine - I'll just go back even further and point out that he was born and raised a Democrat even though he registered under no affliation because A.) He was in the military and B.) as an Arkansas resident he didn't have to (I'm not a registered Democrat in Tennessee for the same reason - I don't have to be).

Silly assertation on your part. And totally debunked a gazillion times before.

Hell, Edwards "forgot" whether he voted for Nixon or not and then didn't vote again for several years until the political bug bit him. Geesch.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. You distrust sincerity and trust a snake oil salesman?
I'm sorry. I can't help you. You buy too much into the corporate media's production plans.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
25. What's your problem with Clark?
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 12:42 PM by high density
In every thread about him you have the urge to piss on him, and now this thread to dredge up old shit from 2003?! This is so absurd. I don't like Edwards or Hillary as presidential candidates, but I don't waste my time starting hate threads about them.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I don't have a problem with someone bringing up something from
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 12:49 PM by Clark2008
2003.

Afterall, Edwards voted for and co-sponsored the IWR in 2002 and I think we should bring that up all the time.

:hi:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. BFD...a Clark-trashing article from a third stringer from The Nation
Nichols would write a much better article with more depth about Clark.

I agree that Clark was not that strong as a candidate in 2004...I saw Clark speak, I met him, shook his hand... but this assessment by Taibbi as well as his glowing adoration for Kucinich tell me where he stands in the political sphere.

At that time, there were some people who thought Clark was "too militaristic" and had a Republican past that somehow was a permanent scar. No mention would be made that Kucinich was "pro-life" up until the beginning of the primary season back then.

I like Kucinich as well as Clark. However, this article doesn't do much service to the upcoming primary season now, imho.






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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
29. After reading the entire 4 year old article, I don't see anything that would
present itself as a stumbling block to the General's 2008 presidential aspirations.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
30. locking
flamebait
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