A Way Totally CT Flamebait Post - Please do NOT Lock

[seventhson]

At the outset I am saying that this is totally CT. Total Conspiracy Theory Tinfoil hat speculation.

But it deserves a hearing. A voice. A way for those of us who believe it is possible to talk about it.

A Public place where people can call us totally nuts or say we are off our meds.

But it needs to be said and discussed. It may be a nutzoid theory - but I am famous here for that (and even oftener I believe I am proven right). I have my flame retardant suit on and I do not mind being called names.

Here it goes.

Get ready.

As you know I am the son of an intelligence operative who worked with the underground(french resistance) against government orders in WWII.

My father was a Nazi profiler and had to smell spooks thousands of miles away (or in his parlor). He also had to smell sellouts and Nazi collaborators on the US side so that his comrades in the underground would not be betrayed.

I would do this as a poll - but I wanted to rant a little more than usual on it because it has been bothering me a lot in the past few primary dates.


Here we go:

Given the allegations (in the Village Voice) about Sharpton being financed by the right; and

given the allegations that Clark was really a Republican plant sent forth by the Stephens group and other right wing Bush backers when Kerry started to tank; and

given the Skull and Bones spooky connections of Kerry to the Bushes in this "secret order" at Yale;


QUESTION: Is it entirely unreasonable to suspect or fear that the candidacies of Clark (and possibly Sharpton) were intentionally designed to DIVIDE the PACK and thereby split the votes to keep Dean and Edwards from having a real straight ahead shot at the Nomination?

When I look at tonight's numbers I see that fully HALF or more of the people voted against Kerry in the Democratic Primaries.

Clark and Edwards SPLIT Tennessee. If either of them had been ALONE (i.e. without the other) they might have TIED Kerry.

Dean might actually have had a decent chance at winning in New Hampshire.

The whole dynamic of this primary would have been completely different.

That might explain WHY Sharpton and Clark did not challenge in Iowa.

Kerry clearly has the DLC and DNC party in his pocket and in the halls and alleyways getting out the vote. He is the mainstream Party candidate.

But the opposition to the DLC is totally split and so no one can get a fair shot at Kerry.

Maybe it is just life.

Maybe it is not a coincidence.

Maybe I should wear a tinfoil raincoat to catch the ---- that will come my way.

But please do NOT lock this thread and let us all vent and let off some steam.

These primaries are driving this progressive democrat crazy and I need a place to let my hair down.

Even if it gets peed in.

Let 'er rip.

and peace to all.

I WILL vote for Kerry, dammit, if he wins the nom and I will try to help him beat Bush. But I will NOT like it.

(Grunts sulkily)

[abburdlen]

1. here is one of the flaws in your theory

"Clark and Edwards SPLIT Tennessee. If either of them had been ALONE (i.e. without the other) they might have TIED Kerry."

That assumes that if Clark wasn't in the race that those voters would not have gone to Kerry.

[seventhson]

21. I said they MIGHT have

and they really might NOT have gone to Kerry if Clark was not there.

[KoKo]

59. Oh......I think you're probably onto something there. It's been too easy.

So, my ever present :tinfoilhat: is definitely on. This is not good, though, because for all the mainstream folks who felt Kerry was the easy vote for an "unhappy" Democratic. There are those of us who are mad as hell at the way this primary has gone down!

Most of the populous states in the US haven't had a chance to vote yet and here we are. The easy frontrunner already chosen.

Kind of makes one wonder why we all here bothered, doesn't it? :nuke:

[bitchkitty]

2. I feel you baby -

But you're right, it'll be locked.

[slinkerwink]

3. No, I think Kucinich is a stalking horse to draw votes away from Dean

and for example, look what happened in Washington and Maine. If Dean had gotten those Kucinich votes, he would've beaten Kerry. Kucinich isn't even serious about being President and the only reason he's in the race is to float a '06 Senate run.

[corporatewhore]

14. Kucinich ran because he was drafted and to give an opposition tooccupation

and Free trade to give a voice for decency and human rights to call his presidential run anything less than serious is a slap in the face to his supporters who have worked hard because they believe in the america that Dennis Kucinich believes in the America that is the leader in environment,peace/justice and human rights

[Deathadder]

16. C'mon

Kucinich is serious about the pres. run. That's not fair to say.

[mitchum]

39. HAHAHAHAHA

You're absolutely right. Centrist Kucinich is the one who re-invented himself as a liberal. Those sour grapes have apparently reached full fementation levels now

[no name no slogan]

45. Yeah, and if Dean would have let a REAL liberal populist run...

Kucinich might have beaten Kerry, too!

I love it. Back when Dean looked invincible, you hardly ever heard the Dean folk bitching about DK-- other than repeating the "he's not electable" meme they learned from the right-wing.

Now that DK is actually showing in the primaries, he's suddenly the reason their campaign in circling the bowl. God forbid it has anything to do with his poorly-run spend-happy overly-cocky campaign leadership.

Not too bad for a "non-serious" candidate who's "irrelevant" in this election, huh?

[aldian159]

50. Who would DK run against in 2006

Voinovich? If so, it would be a great second round of the Cleveland mayor election in the seventies.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

52. just when you think you'd seen everything possible here

along comes a post like this.
Congratulations.
Exceptionally fantastic thinking.

[Zomby Woof]

62. LOL!!!!

Yep. That is why he delivered his "Prayer For America" speech and was drafted into the race. Just to STOP DEAN. :boogeyman:

It is the Law of Unintended Consequences. Kucinich isn't in the race to steal anyone's votes, but politics has a way of making things not go your way. Besides, real progressives deserve a candidate like DK in the race, and one of the things we despise about Dean is he is not only a moderate, but too close to the Right for our comfort. All that, and no way could he beat Bush.

Finally, DK IS a serious candidate. I have worked in his campaign for months now and we take it seriously, and so do his supporters. Far more seriously than we will ever take the former governor of Vermont, who has shredded the last vestige of his credibility by changing his mind about quitting after Wisconsin.

I will say I am glad DK's presence in the race irritates the Dean supporters, but that's politics - sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. ;-)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

73. Just the opposite - Dean was in to block Kucinich, a real progressive

from gaining any attention. Kucinich would have gotten the anti-war vote - after all - he's the one that voted AGAINST it - and has a HISTORY of progressivism, while Dean has a history of being a centrist.

Dean got lots of money from moderate yuppies - and his campaign was run by Trippi - and I hope it's obvious what he was about now.

Funny - look at my threads about this from the beginning of Dean's and Kucinich's campaign - it turned out almost exactly like I predicted.

Oh - and Dean people ALWAAYS like to ignore this - Dean WAS DLC for his entire career - Dean was the CHIEF PIMP for NAFTA to the states - and you want to call Dennis DLC?

The "revolution" will NEVER come from a bunch of upper middle class socially liberal, "fiscally conservative" fakers - and this primary proves it.

[Mairead]

77. What an ignorant, offensive thing for you to say. That turned my stomach

[bloom]

4. It's possible... n/t

:tinfoilhat:

[Rowdyboy]

5. At least in the exit polls tonight...

Clark gets the angry anti-war vote
Edwards gets the vote of those unhappy with Bush economics
Kerry gets the votes of those who want an "electable" candidate

Not sure that Edwards would have taken a majority of Clark's votes or that Clark would take a majority of Edwards'. Wish I'd seen that point addressed.

At least people can shut up now about how "provincial " southerners are and how we demand one of our own.

[mmonk]

6. I see no reason not to lock this.

[seaglass]

7. Thanks for the vote seventhson, I know that was hard for you

to say.

You helped me (a lot, thank you) so I'm not going to say anything about your theories except that I hope for you that they will be proven to be false.

[seventhson]

38. Thanks. I want to see Kerry lose this nomination more than anything

except seeing Bush lose this next election

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

8. you're probably right

I think it's quite plausible honestly.

[Tim_in_HK]

9. The prob with this

and with conspiracy theories in general, is that they give too much faith in people acting in a certain way, and over estimate the intelligence and ability for people to work together. File this under Star Chamber.

And Edwards is a threat to the establishment? How so? Sorry, he ain't that radical.

[seventhson]

13. Don't have to be radical to be a threat

If you are honest and willing to challenge these guys (and I mean PROSECUTE them if they have committed crimes) then you are a threat.

Remember - my belief is that Kerry is being promoted by the Skull folks in order to protect the ongoing crimes of the BFEE. That is my BELIEF.

I STILL think he would be a more decent president than Bush.

but I think Attila the Hun might be a better president than Bush, frankly.

[bhunt70]

17. agreed, good rebuttal.

[goodhue]

10. entirely unreasonable

but compelling nonetheless

[ozone_man]

11. I would add one more to the mix.

Why is DK in the race other than to attack Dean from the left. Does he have a chance of winning? I am aligned politically with Kucinich on most positions, but he just is not electable, and Dean is the only other anti-establishment candidate, anti-Iraq war, grass roots driven candidate running. Winning is important, but it will be tough if DK is splitting the left vote. Same goes for Sharpton (funded by Stone).

But I agree with your overall tin hat theory. Gephardt performed a murder suicide aginst Dean in Iowa as His and Kerry's cronies ran the Osama attack ad and attacked Dean's electability, etc. They all seem to be in cahoots, with the possible exception of Edwards, but he seems to be in the pockets of lawyers.

[corporatewhore]

20. yes how dare he question deans proggressiveness

:eyes:

[Deathadder]

25. Stop The Attacks on Kucinich

Dean and his people had their chance to make a Kerry stink, and the above theories made sense in the helping, now I said helping, not clinching the Kerry victories. Let's just hope Kerry does beat Bush, and let's hope Kerry proves to be a great leader moving this country further, and his history behind. The Kerry people should be thanking all the critics of Kerry here on the DU board. We are helping you guys get ready for the Bush attacks to come. We know our facts of Kerry, and we are only trying to address them, help you guys think your way out of them. In the end, we will all come together to beat Bush. I'm just shocked at the Dean people attacking DK. You guys lost to Kerry, not Kucinich. Dean could have went head to head with Kerry, like he did Gephardt, you guys instead tested the waters, and Kerry got away. I hope President Kerry will be a new Kerry, that in his greatness he will shadow and end the facts and theories about him. In the end, he is successful, and he's no Bush. Kerry's people should earn our trust, instead of getting mad at us for having intelligence and spirit. We have facts and theories that make sense, don't hid from us Kerry people, face us, and then when you do, lead the way and we will follow. We're the left!!! We won't be the slave sheep of the right. We just want Kerry to be the candidate for all of the left, we don't want to be forced to join, we want to be embraced. Dean people, Kucinich is a good man, who doesn't play politics and games, don't blame your loses on Kucinich. 7th Son makes lots of sense, and you all know it, because it is filled with facts. He is getting you guys ready for Bush, and for that you should thank him. Thank you.

[seventhson]

40. Well Damn!!!

Thanks back.

I know that this is just conjecture on my part. But my belief that the Skull Bone is connected to the Stephens Bone and the Bones Bones are connected to the Sharpton Bones makes this whole primary look a little spooky.

I like Dean, Kucinich and Edwards (Edwards a little). I think the other three standing are connected to the (CIA-Spooky) BFEE.

THAT is what i believe. The facts speak for themselves.

As an expert of sorts on sociopolitical networks I DO think there are plenty of facts to support the thesis.

I may not be able to PROVE it to the unbelievers and the sceptics here.

But I know tons of people here agree with me.

That is some pretty good solace.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

83. please provide ANY evidence that Kucinich has ties to the spooks?

Please? Any evidence at all? Frankly, I pretty much agree about your assessment of Kerry and Clark - but Kucinich? How? Show us even the tiniest sliver of evidence he's connected to these people.

[Deathadder]

86. He's not.

He never will be. Call it a flaw of his. Kucinich is the man.

[ozone_man]

47. Not really an attack on Kucinich,

just an assessment of what he is trying to accomplish here. He seems to be running an exposure race for a 2006 senate race. If he drops out after Ohio, it might confirm that. But, the damage will have been done. Seriously, does he have any electoral votes that might give him a chance to win?

Kerry does in no way represent the left. He represents the elite, Washington insiders. I think DK would agree, don't you?

[Mairead]

78. DK is in to win, of course! And yes, he can.

If your positions are aligned with his, you can help him win by ignoring all the FUD rumours and supporting him with money, energy, and your votes.

It takes exactly the same number of votes to elect any candidate, so why not elect the best?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

82. It look like Dean is unelectable doesn't it?

Just remember to blame EVERYONE ELSE for Dean's miserable showing when the voting actually started.

[jpgray]

12. It's one way to interpret this

The fun here is you can read quite a lot into these things. :) Personally I believe there was no coalition or bloc to stop any candidate. I believe Clark for example was ready to be the anti-Dean in NH, having the most momentum of the alternatives to Dean, since Gep and Dean were expected to take up most of IA.

[seventhson]

15. Either way, though

from my perspective - the rightist dems win

[question everything]

34. Until several weeks ago I did not follow the race that closely

figured that by the time my turn would come to vote - Super Tuesday - it would be over the way it was in 2000. Also, I was not excited by anyone. Yes, I like Kucinic but knew that he had no chance of winning. I was scared by Dean intensity and I did not think that Kerry - an insider liberal from MA - had a chance. I was not excited by Lieberman, either, and considered Sharpton and CMB as diversion. I certainly was not going to vote for Gephardt, whose campaign could have been conducted in the 1950s or 1970s without changing a word.

But then I heard Edwards on Face the Nation before the Iowa caucus and was captivated.

What we sometimes forget is that the primaries are for us - hard core Democrats, but the final nominee eventually will have to win the elections. This is why at first Lieberman generated the most votes nationally - at least by name recognition. Dean scared too many voters and, yes, too many Democrat insiders. This was the reason for Clark. To stop Dean. He would have been like McGovern, or like Barry Goldwater. Thankfully, the level-headed Iowans rejected him.

Whether we like this or not, the war on terror is going to be a major theme during the general elections and Kerry can stand his own against Bush. I doubt that we will see any posters with Bush wearing a flight suit but this was important for many voters. This is what the "electability" meant. And once a war veteran established himself as a front runner there was no longer need for Clark. Again, the primaries and caucuses are for Democrats - mostly; CNN Crossfire Tucker Carlson said he voted for Sharpton today - and Clark just joined the Democratic part what, six months ago?

Bottom line - there is no conspiracy theory except that all of us want to end the Bush dynasty and some movers and shakers decided to be more active by recruiting Clark as a real anti-Dean candidate, not as a Trojan horse. Lest we forget - two thirds of the voters did support the war in Iraq.

[seventhson]

46. well - like your name

I will question this

you see dems pulling the puppet strings.

I see corporo-fascists

[mmonk]

18. Since I was one of those that joined the draft Clark movement

does that make me a right wing bush backer, Stephens group member or a republican? News to me. They must have erased my memory.

[Turkw]

23. If Wes Clark is not good enough for the Democratic party, neither am I

And if you want conspiracy theories, how about this, the television corporations will end up with two candidates who are "friendly" to them if it comes to Bush vs. Kerry. Not a bad months work.

[tobius]

19. This might help your credibility

[seventhson]

24. sorry there

lousy keyboard

not great typing fingers

and I need to wear my glasses but the glare hurts my eyes at the keyboard.

I did go back and fix things though. Look again

I usuallu post and then edit because the print is bigger. Sorry if that offends you. The CONTENT is the point. I think you get the gist.

[Deathadder]

27. No Worries

It is the content indeed the point. You just posted this post of passion, you got the message out and quickly. Mistakes can be fixed later, the message is needed now, and you brought a great dialog to the table. You reminded everyone politics is at play here, strategy is not always an honorable game, and if the left are playing games as stated in your theory, the right are too. We need to stop underestimating Bush. We have to remember the behind the scenes plays they can make cross over the line of left and right, know your enemy and the sheep in wolves clothing. Always look for the right, even on the left. Don't sleep on Bush, don't sleep on Bush's allies, and don't forget beating Bush might be next to impossible, especially with the behind scenes games at play in this campaign. I'm not a fan of Kerry, but if he is on the ticket, Kerry must win at all cost.

[seventhson]

36. You sound like a Veteran

strategic thinking.

But my point is that i do not believe Kerry is from the left.

I think he is a corporate democrat

[mopinko]

41. adjust your text size

in view on your browser. i have middle aged eyesight myself.

[seventhson]

43. what's a browser?

I just turn this on and roll...

[spooky3]

74. Internet Explorer, Mozilla, Netscape, Safari are all browsers

Depending on what type of computer you have, while you are visiting DU, you can go to one of the menus in the browser you are using and increase the text size. For example, if you have a Mac and use Mozilla to get to DU, the text size adjuster is in the "View" menu.

[eyeswideopened]

48. That is not a polite response

[tobius]

22. sorry, (n/t)

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

26. It sounds like something a complete delusional nutcase would cook up.

[Deathadder]

29. And yet the trail of Facts

...helps back it up. Crazy times we are living in.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

31. There are no facts to back it up. Nothing but conjecture.

[OKNancy]

And the problem is

that your post will probably get deleted while the original stays.
Even though one is true and one isn't.
( How is that for skirting the rules?)

[seventhson]

32. I am glad I am not alone then

because conspiracy in American politics is as American as apple pie and Mom.

Ask Lincoln or RFK - or FDR who said: " nothing in politics is an accident. If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way."

My father's favorite politcal expression.

Machiavelli is Poli Sci 101. It is all about running the campaign and PR of your supposed opposition on the sly.

[seventhson]

28. As we proceed into future elections this will become more and more of a ..

problem.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Under Hitler the Bushes had absolute power. Their money could buy the deaths of millions for profit.

FDR and Churcill and millions of American GI's in WWII put a stumbling block in the way. the BFEE kept their prizes in terms of global conquest but had to but total global fascism away for another day.

That day is now.

We can expect to see the very rich and the total corporate financing all of the dems and rethugs and whoever else from here on out.

No one will be able to compete at all.

And there will be MANY candidates vying who may be representing ANYBODY.

Real candidates like Wellstone are , well, Wellstoned.

But we must be savvy enough to know who represents the corporate elites.

If Kerry wins do we become his cheering section or his most challenging critics on inauguration day?

I for one will be in the sdtreets protesting to bring the troops home and expecting him, however, to be cutting deals witgh Cheney and Halliburton so that he can stay in power for eight years.

That is my opinion on it.

[Deathadder]

33. Right

Its your right to your opinion at that. We all haven't been won over by Kerry yet, even though we would help Kerry win against Bush. Kerry must embrace the supporters of other candidates, not expect us to join or else because he is winning in the eyes of media and 50% of primary voters. If he is the leader he says he is, he will win us over with action, not promise. We are done with empty promises, those of intelligence want action. We want to see Kerry slam the door on special interests like he said he will do, saying it is not enough. We're not making the dirty history of all these men up, we discovered them.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[seventhson]

35. tHAT IS REALLY FUNNY!

A GROVELBOT IS IN THIS THREAD!

[eyeswideopened]

49. explain what this does

[Octafish]

37. So what if Kerry's a Bonesman.

This guy was one, too. He was one of Kerry's best friends from Yale, the "charmer" of the group. His name was Richard Pershing. The grandson of 6-star General of the Armies John J "Blackjack" Pershing. Richard followed in the family tradition and volunteered for duty in the US Army after college. He died while leading his men in combat in Vietnam. Besides being an all-around great guy, Pershing was a bonesman.



The point is, seventhson: There are bad bonesman, like bushalina awol, and there are good bonesmen, like Pershing and Kerry.
I prefer the latter two to the former, politically and personally.

In the spirit of positive rhetoric, there's more info on Kerry's background in the military, as well as how his anti-war thinking developed, in this Atlantic article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/12/brinkley.htm

[seventhson]

42. Skull always admired a willingness to die for the fascist cause

military service was usually pretty much required for political futures.

SOP

Bush was an exception

It is part of the elitist spartan training like cold showers and gay schoolmasters

[Octafish]

72. That's why Kerry's dad FOUGHT the Fascists?

Kerry's father was a US Army Air Corps pilot, flying war material over the hump in southern Asia. So he almost got killed and suffered TB to make it LOOK like he was against the Fascists. Excellent.

Still, it doesn't explain how Sen. Kerry, throughout his career, has put his country ahead of his own safety, and his Party ahead of his own self-interest, time and time again.

BTW: If you want to bring back the era where the Democrats stood for positive change, you'll want to support Sen. Kerry. The guy is friends with the people who best represent that "wing" of the Party.

[tobius]

44. love to read this stuff

Kerry did a great job propping up Dean until the very last minute, that was fantastic. Then he paid off Gephart to go medieval on Deans a$$ knowing Deans temperament would cause him to return in kind. After Trippi walked away, he split the commissions halfway- brilliant!
Next up con half the nation that he's serious until the last minute (again, this the genius!) spend tons of money, drag his wife around the country, find an issue to trip up on( notice the connection- trip=Trippi- get it?) then just barely lose.
AWESOME performance :boring:

[John_H]

51. I have an honest suggestion for you.

You're thinking too hard, and your personal filter is too thick.

You have powerful feelings about Dean and Edwards and you're letting them fuck with your head. Conspiracies don't work that way. The universe, particularly the part of the universe that involves politics, is to entropic to involve conspiracies that are at once as sweeping and as precariously balanced as the Ed wood, pull-the-stding conspiracy you've been fantasizing about.

Wasting your brain power on this kind of stuff is not going to get anyone out of the white house. Focus your energies on the prize. It's a big one: the future of your country.

[Uzybone]

53. Laughable

I mean do people really sit around and think this crap up?

[nomaco-10]

54. Dick Morris

I know he's crazy as a shit house rat, but he's been peddling the story that Bill and Hillary backed Clark as the anti Dean spoiler to make sure the party became divided and weak to cause a loss for the dems and a 2008 run for Hillary. Think about all the stuff Bill has made sure got out into the press, Larry King Live: calls into the show to wish Bob Dole happy birthday and ends up saying to Larry King, of all people! that the infamous 16 words in the State of the Union address were no big deal "all presidents make a mistake, I've made a few" I nearly fell out of my chair. He then drops little tidbits here and there that he was certainly not anti this war and even went on to say on other occasions that he thought there were WMD too. WTF??? Then all the sudden here comes Clark, anti war, calling bush* a liar, saying there was never any real proof of WMD and lo and behold, guess who is running his campaign?

No seventhson, it doesn't take a tin foil hat are even an overactive imagination to connect the dots on all the corruption and manipulation of good old campaign 2004, I'm just scratching the surface. There's plenty more to be told concerning the underhanded dirty tricks Edwards, Kerry, Sharpton and Gephardt pulled. The only four candidates whose hands are clean are Graham, Braun, Kucinich and Dean and guess what, none of them are going to win. Politics is a very dirty business, a very dirty business indeed. We all sit here consumed with our candidates, thinking we have a say with our vote, you don't even realize it got decided for you long before the first vote was cast.
Back to Dick Morris. Who knows the business of dirty politics any better than Dick Morris. The Clintons brought him in and shut out all the decent, hard working people that worked their asses to get him elected the first term when he was a little known govenor from Arkansas. Stephannopolous, Meyers, Brown, Panetta and others were shut out and Dick Morris ran everything. Maybe Dick is crazy, crazy like a fox and who would know better how the Clintons work?
This election has every dirty hand of every dirty politician, lobbyist and corporate whore from the media to the pharmecutical companies in it. No, your not crazy, you're just on to the truth. The truth is what's crazy.

[seventhson]

55. I am grateful that we got to express our opinions on this thread. YOUR

perspective is EXACTLY the kind of thing I wanted to hear about.

This issue came up early on and had been forgotten -- but thanks for reminding us all.

It is not so crazy after all

[Tinoire]

63. Spot on. Thanks. It's disgusting when you look at the big picture

These guys aren't operating in a vacuum- they're behind the curtains coordinating their little moves, acting solo at times but always pulling strings.

[Bonobo]

56. Too ridiculous to lock. But belongs in the lounge IMHO.

By the way, can you fedex me some of what you;ve been ingesting?

[nomaco-10]

57. Well, I guess if you're a supporter of the

sacrificial lamb tonight, I can't blame you for wanting to self medicate. Stings like a bee don't it. I'll be looking for some comfort myself after Wisconsin. I generally take three glasses of scotch and an ambien.

[Bonobo]

60. I'll join ya,pal. Stings like a friggin' hornet -yup.

[seventhson]

58. It's campaign 2004

so it belongs here.


I am just wondering no matter which dem wins in 2004 what exactly will DU be doing?

Fawning over the president?

Or challenging himn from the left?

If it is Kerry (or Dean or whoever) - I hope we keep challenging whoever is president - from the left.

[w4rma]

61. How about this addendum. Bush, S&B nickname Temporary, is TRYING to FUBAR

as badly as possible to do as much damage to the Republican Party's credibility as he can on the way out. Or maybe some of the neo-cons (who I've heard were maybe once on the far far left in the 60s) are trying to FUBAR everything as much as they can to get more folks to wake up and do something.

However, IMHO, it is best to try to adhere to Occam's Razor as often as possible:

One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html :hi:

[Desertrose]

64. I tend to agree with you seventhson

I just find this sudden rush to Kerry most interesting...also his % in state after state ...it just all fits together a little too well...and now, the nite of the two southern states' primaries, the two chances of another candidate beating Kerry's winning streak, Clark is out...the timing is just too....:shrug:

Its like this whole thing was perfectly orchestrated to get all those who might challenge the status quo, out of the race...set em up & knock em down. The voters/people never really had a say in any of it...corporate media set up.....and now we think we have a canddiate who will beat Bush? I can't imagine a more boring debate than the one with booshwa & Kerry.

(Sorry Kerry supporters- a lot of you guys are my friends and I hate to put your candidate down...but I just have a real bad feeling about this.....)
:evilfrown:

Peace
DR

[Mairead]

79. I'm bothered too, DR

I thought I was following along with the bouncing ball, but I must have lost track somewhere because I feel very confused about exactly what happened that produced the current state.

I can recall Kerry getting repeatedly dissed by the media back during the summer, at the same time they were inflating Dean madly. Dean was the Great White Hope of the Dem Party, Kerry was a out-of-touch has-been with a hopeless campaign yada yada. Then at some point we started hearing about Clark and how he was going to come in and take it away from everyone because Clinton was backing him. So then Clark came in but didn't seem to have the predicted machine behind him. Then closer to Xmas we started hearing how Dean was too much, a dud, useless, undisciplined...but there were no good words about Kerry or Clark, either. So I thought 'Aha! They're going to inflate someone else instead.' And I thought for a moment it would be Edwards, but that seemed more a flicker, a sort of heat lightning flicker where Edwards got lit up a little and Gep got lit up a little, but nothing real.

Then all of a sudden the primaries start and, out of nowhere it seemed, Kerry was the 900 lb Gorilla personified.

So what did I miss? Advertising is usually not very subtle, but it can be. So did they keep stumm about Kerry at the end so that he'd automatically look better and better as they deflated Dean? That'd have been quite a subtle manoevre! And what was the deal with Clark? From the off he seemed like a polite non-politician who wasn't putting the kind of energy into his campaign that I'd have to suppose he would have had it been a vital military campaign.

What exactly happened? I don't know, but I have the irritating feeling that something very definitely did, and that I missed it!

[salin]

65. Then again, if we are being a bit tinfoilish

one could see that a message such as this is intended to do the same thing, from another angle - to create division, suspicion and divide voters, but with a slightly different goal... to increase suspicion towards the front runner so that people vote third party or stay home on election day out of frustration.

Point being - that it is easy to look at circumstances and message and draw a conspiratorial intent from said message or action - be there any grain of truth to it, or not...

[seventhson]

66. My intent is to raise enough questions that people vote in the primaries

for anybody but Kerry.

In the GE I say vote for the Nominee (unless there is a realistic/safe alternative to defeat Bush)

[Zomby Woof]

67. LOL

Goodgawd, this beats all. I am loath to kick your threads, but this one was a motherlode of tinfoil paranoid, self-aggrandizing bullshit. A great big steaming pile of dung, with flies.

Btw, whatever your father did in WW2 gives your theories no credibility. My Dad is a vet, but that doesn't make a war expert. It is self-serving, or what propagandists call 'card-stacking'.

As for Kerry's surge in popularity, that is easy to explain: Americans love a frontrunner. The average voter isn't into politics like we are. Many are undecided. I don't think beating Bush loomed as large as "I want to vote for the guy in the lead so I can fit in around the water cooler chat tomorrow". Once Kerry won in Iowa, the floodgates for this mentality opened. The Democrats - all of us - are HUNGRY to defeat Bush. If that means a frontrunner mentality kicked in, we shall see if there are consequences come this fall.

But no, no cabals, secret societies, the media, nor RW plants helped Kerry along. Just voters who, whether in error or not, think they have found a winner, and desperately want to be on the winning side this time. We shall see.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krkaufman]

69. Office of Special Plans has a position open for you

Sounds like cherry-picking of intelligence to suit a preconceived position.

[hedda_foil]

70. Oh yes, seventhson. Yes indeed.

Not only do I agree with your proposition pretty much in toto, I'll see your tinfoil raincoat and raise you one.

The global financial powers that be seem to have decided that the Bush/Cheney regime are too incompetent to be allowed to continue. Case in point: the recent IMF warning that a continuation of the current B/C economic policies are destabilizing the world economy and are leading to a probable global depression. The B/C response? The totally insane excuse for a "budget" plus a trillion dollar proposal to partially privatize social security. Can you imagine how that went down at Davos last week?

Connect the dots, friends and look at the headlines. Suddenly, the tame media is attacking B/C on five, six, seven, eight fronts at once and not letting up. The grand jury on the Plame affair leaks like a sieve and we hear that the trail leads right to Cheney's door. The Bush AWOL charge suddenly sticks like glue and Unca KKKarl can't snap his magic fingers and make it go away. The WMD's ain't there and the magical plan for a Bush appointed "investigation" isn't selling. Nothing they try is selling. And more and more and more hits the press. Every day. Like clockwork. And OPEC is tightening the screws ... they can't even rely on their old pals in the House of Saud.

And coincidentally, brother Kerry's comatose candidacy is suddenly taken off life support, hyped into hyperdrive, and voila! The come-from-the-dead candidate is coronated in a media-driven, unexamined rush to nomination like nothing we have ever experienced in a contested primary race (except, perhaps, for Bush II's bizarre nomination). And I can say that with some authority, having personally followed the nominating process of both parties for the past 50 years. (Do I need to repeat that I started my career as an election junkie at the age of 7?)

The puppet masters are at play, folks. Whether you've been praying for Kerry to win the nomination or backing another candidate, the process has been short-circuited in spades.

If I haven't spelled it out clearly, let me do so now. The masters of global finance have decided * is too dangerous to them to continue. This is a coordinated takedown. The designated replacement is Kerry. If the Bushies have the wit to fix things fast, they might be allowed to continue. If that's the case (which is doubtful given their unbelievable combination of incompetence and zealotry) the dirt on Kerry ... and there's truckloads of it ... will be allowed to stick. If not, Kerry will develop a magical teflon shield and the dump trucks will unload their muck at the Bushite's door right through the election.

Oh yes, I'll vote for Kerry if it comes to that ... and I'll even get out the vote in my ward. But don't try to fool me into thinking even for a nanosecond that the people have a damn thing to do with this. Because they don't. (Which doesn't mean that some people don't want him, for those of you who are true Kerry fans.)

Remember Plato's Cave? We're living in it.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

84. yep - RT Bush replaced by RT Kerry

Meet the new boss - same as the old boss. The party on the left has become the party on the right. Get on your knees and pray we don't get fooled again.

[Lexingtonian]

71. dude, get a grip!

It's not the 1940s anymore and this is not Stalin's USSR. The leitmotif of the present is not totalitarianism, world domination is a boobie prize these days. The present is just the usual kind of domestic politics (one class of the society besting another) under peculiarly perverse conditions of historical provenance.

The story of the Democratic Presidential field in 2003/2004 is that Dean, Edwards, and Clark emerged as the regionalist moderate Democratic candidates for the North, South, and Midwest. Kerry has emerged as the trans-regional -national- figure and (despite ongoing attempts to run as a moderate) the one held to be the most effective liberal once in office.

What each of the three regionalist moderates has been doing is to take each of these modes/styles/varieties to its inherent particular limits. By trying to prove the kind he champions as particularly effective and nationally, the flaws in each one are revealed and propagate to where the particular campaign shatters against some part of the reality of the present to which its answers are obsolete or irrelevant or wrong. The voters dispose of them, the bewildered and unconsolable supporters struggle to understand where they misunderstood the needs of the present.

There is an evident need to reinvent the political wheel to these supporters, a need to rediscover the role and significance of the racial division in obstructing the economic justice agenda, and then that that explains why the Party insists on keeping demonstrated committed social liberals- whatever else their flaws- as the cornerstone of the Party apparatus until a majority is reachieved.

Btw, Jerome Armstrong (Vis Numar) posted the converse theory to yours on DailyKos yesterday. He advocated that Clark/Edwards/Dean stay in the race, together keeping Kerry under 50% of the delegates, and work toward a brokered convention where one of them gets made nominee.

So you may want to let go of the unreasonable premises that you use as a lens. Any Manichaean-ish conspiracy on our side defeats the purpose of the whole, and it's the other side that can't function without one. Our suspicions reveal our own flaws, often more to others than ourselves as you may have noticed.

[Killarney]

75. No, I believe Clark was sincere

and really wanted to lead this country. I do not think he was a Republican plant.

Sorry, can't fall for this one.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. "Sometimes A Cigar Is Just A Cigar"

Love from the Sunshine State....


Brian

[hedda_foil]

80. kick

[Quahog]

81. Not lock-worthy, but not entirely sensible either

I find it illuminating to look at the actual records of the candidates in the offices they have held, rather than dwell too much on how they are spun by the media or labeled by the other candidates (or the other party). I mean, Dean has been portrayed as this frothing, flaming, give-away-everything-to-the-brown-single-mothers-and-homosexual-couples liberal from day one, and his record simply does not support it. Kerry has been attacked by liberals for his vote on the war powers act, but if you take that out of the mix and look at his senate voting record, his career is marked by more liberal bona fides than Dean's.

But at the end of the day, all of these guys are no more than a few degrees off of center. Dean governed as a centerist in VT, arguably a conservative on fiscal issues. Kucinich's voting record looks a lot like Kerry's, and both of their records are not much more progressive than Lieberman's. For all of his Holy-Joe ranting and his inability to stand up to GOP bullies, Lieberman has voted with his party as much as any of them have.

So all of the talk about who is a plant, who is being used as a tool of the neo-cons to derail the REAL progressive, who is secretly helping the bush* cabal to further thier plan for world domination, all seems like a lot of hogwash to me. All of the candidates in the Dem field are of the same political stripe, more or less. I wouldn't call any of them truly progressive. But they'd all be a damn sight better than what we have right now.

I think that this notion that Kerry's participation in Skull & Bones will trump his ideology is a red herring as well. Come on, it's a stupid, goofy club made up or rich college kids who, because of the placement of their families in this culture, have ended up in positions of power. Imagine you are John Kerry wandering around campus your freshman year, and you get invited to join the most exclusive club around, a place famous for the last names of its membership, what would YOU have done? "Oh no, I could never join that organization, because George W Bush will be a member someday, and then grow up to be a neo-fascist, dictatorial, court-appointed president who leads us into an unnecessary war, so count me out!" Please. Who knows what Kerry's political ambitions were back in that day, but if he had ANY, he would have been a fool to turn down the invite. Skull & Bones, more than any fraterninty, was and is a locus of power, a place where movers and shakers have historically met. Hell, I would have joined. But I seriously doubt that I would have emerged from the experience a brainwashed, neo-con automaton, ready to do the Bush family's bidding any time they used the secret password.

[seventhson]

85. You may doubt it.

But I believe that Bush and Kerry are cut from the same cloth and that their lives and fortunes and lot have been thrown in together.

And it is not WITH the people.

it is WITH IMHO the global corporofascists

[Deathadder]

87. I dare any of the Candidates to live by these words.

http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trrotptr.html

[WillyBrandt]

88. This is a Transcript of Psychosis

Smears and insanity have been transcribed above