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People keep referring to Clinton as "pro-war". But just how pro-war is she?

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:35 PM
Original message
People keep referring to Clinton as "pro-war". But just how pro-war is she?
Senator Clinton says what she voted for in 2002 was to give the president adequate diplomatic tools to deal with his foreign policy priorities--thus the authorization to use force. She says she feels hoodwinked by Bush not intending to ever seriously try talks with Iraq prior to the invasion.

She's not alone in that boat. That one vote can hardly be said to seal the case for her position on being pro-war or anti-war. This is not a black and white issue anyway, but rather one fraught with shades of gray as to how pols think the existing war ought to be managed. According to VoteSmart, this is how she's voted on war-related issues in the past couple of years.

Troop Redeployment Amendment (June '06) - voted No
== Vote to adopt an amendment that requires the President to withdraw troops from Iraq by July 1, 2007 and states that some forces shall remain in Iraq to train Iraqi security forces, conduct counterterrorism operations and protect U.S. personnel and facilities.

Flag Desecration Constitutional Amendment - No

Price-Gouging During Emergencies Amendment -Yes
== Vote on a motion to waive the Budget Act in order to adopt an amendment that makes it illegal to sell crude oil, gasoline, or petroleum distillates at a price that is excessive or takes unfair advantage during a declared state of emergency.

Status of Detainees Substitute Amendment (Nov 15, 05) - Yes
== Vote to adopt an amendment that requires the Secretary of Defense to submit procedures for determining the status of detainees held at Guantanamo Bay to the Committees on the Judiciary of the Senate and the House.

- Requires a judicial review of an individual's status as an enemy combatant if the sentence is 10 years or more and that in all other cases review is up to the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia

- Prohibits any US court, justice or judge from hearing or considering a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on the behalf of a non-US citizen who is detained at Guantanamo Bay

- Stipulates that only the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia can hear an appeal to determine if a non-US citizen has been detained properly as an enemy combatant at Guantanamo Bay

- Indicates that the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia is limited to reviewing whether a detainee was determined to be an enemy combatant in a manner that is consistent with the procedures submitted by the Secretary of Defense and whether those procedures are constitutional and consistent with United States law

Detainees at Guantanamo Bay Amendment (Nov 10, 05) - No
== Vote to adopt an amendment that requires the Secretary of Defense to submit procedures for determining the status of detainees held at Guantanamo Bay to the Committees on the Judiciary of the Senate and the House.

- Prohibits any US court, justice or judge from hearing or considering a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on the behalf of a non US citizen who is detained at Guantanamo Bay

- Stipulates that only the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia can hear an appeal to determine if a non US citizen has been detained properly as an enemy combatant at Guantanamo Bay

- Indicates that the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia is limited to reviewing whether a detainee was determined to be an enemy combatant in a manner that is consistent with the procedures submitted by the Secretary of Defense


Reporting Matters in Iraq Amendment - Yes
== Vote to adopt an amendment that requires the President to report to Congress every three months on the United States policy and military operations in Iraq including estimated dates of phase out and redeployment until the last US combat brigade returns to the United States.

Iraq Progress Reports Amendment - Yes
== Vote to adopt an amendment that requires the President to report to Congress every three months on the U.S. policy and military operations in Iraq until the last U.S. combat brigade returns to the U.S.

USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization (03/02/2006) - Yes
== Vote to adopt a conference report that extends the authority of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to conduct “roving wiretaps” and access certain business records through December 31, 2009, and makes the remaining 14 provisions of the Patriot Act permanent.

USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization (12/16/2005) - No
== Vote to invoke cloture on a conference report that extends the authority of the Federal Bureau of Intelligence (FBI) to conduct “roving wiretaps” and access certain business records through December 31, 2009, and makes the remaining provisions of the Patriot Act permanent.

While she's voted to give this most untrustworthy of presidents the power to carry out the war as he sees fit, she has voted for some reasonable restrictions on how Congress can oversight him. This is a pro-war policy, but a fairly weak one. I think it's too deferential to the executive, but it seems too much to call her a DINO. She seems to believe in a strong executive (not surprising). I find these votes disagreeable, but not scandalous, not corrupt, not neoconny. Just wrong.

Your thoughts?
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why don't you include all the dates. 2001 - no protest from Clinton
2003 - no protest from Clinton.

Of course I'm referring to the war.

In my book, she was a war hawk for votes - I imagine she was a key person when a group of Dems got together to discuss the pro-war votes of Dem leaders. I was apalled then.

And I'm still angry now.

There were braver souls around who were not milquetoast about supporting the killing. She road a war horse. And only started changing as the country changed. We need braver souls as our leaders.

I love the woman, but not her politics.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. war hawk for votes - well stated
in some ways this is more dispicable than just being a hawk because its selling out the lives of young kids for votes.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Abu Ghraib - Kerry called for Rummy's job - Clinton wouldn't back his call.
Fast forward to well after election - Clinton says Rumsfeld should go.

What a leader.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. IWR-yes
I think that's the one that sticks in people's craw around here.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is what Kerry tried to argue in '04.
I didn't work in '04 and it won't work in '08.

Hillary's position isn't horrible and I could forgive it if she planned to stay in the Senate. But running yet another person who voted for the war, but tries to argue against it at the same time, would be a repeat of the stupid mistake we made with Kerry. Once again, we'll see Republicans waving flip-flops at their convention and moderate voters will vote for any Republican who acts like he has a plan and can stick to his convictions.

Conviction politics works. "I voted for it but I'm not really for it" will not work. Not then, not now, not ever. Its dumb, dumb politics.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Dumbing it down to black/white is dumb politics.
The entire Dem party lost control of the perception. Because the media storyline was that IWR = War, so Bush had no problem mounting the invasion because the few Dem voices saying Bush didn't HAVE to go to war as per the IWR guidelines on weapon inspections and diplomacy were successfully pointing AWAY from the need for military force.

IWR = War storyline drowned out those voices. That was an entire Dem party failure that happened because the few REAL prowar Dems WANTED it to be drowned out.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. You are known by the company you keep
She campaigned for Holy Joe during the primary, and ignored Ned in the election. Anybody that is Buddy Buddy with Holy Joe is pro-War in Iraq/Iran/Syria...

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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Please check you inbox
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. She's seen close up how Congress can tie a president's hands. nt
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. She's not...nt
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Oh come on. You can do better than that.
Or maybe you can't. I'm opposed to Clinton's nomination and even I did a better job than you defending her. Little "nt" denials just makes your candidate look like a pitcher of koolaid we're supposed to drink.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Oh I can...
And I have on dozens of occasions...there are so many of these threads that innacuratley portary her positions that it does get tiresome to have to correct the same innaccuracies over and over again...but I find it hard to let them go by!!!

View this as a placeholder...I'm sure I'll have more energy after dinner and will post what I think...again!

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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "innacuratley portary her positions"? Jeeze-Louise, did you even read my post?
It's wonky, it's fact heavy, and it's mostly word-for-word from VoteSmart. What I write is pretty fence sitty, frankly.

I take comfort from the fact that anti Hillary nuts think I'm excusing her IWR vote and pro Hillary nuts think the facts are notoriously slanted against her.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I wasn't talking about you...
It was a more general observation...throughout DU!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. On Tora Bora she would not back Kerry up. On Rumsfeld's firing she would not back up
Kerry even though he was the nominee. On the only REAL Iraq withdrawal plan ahe voted against it.

BTW - she did later call for Rumsfeld to go - well AFTER the election when her support for his firing would have been useful to the candidate and to the country.

She chose to NOT LEAD.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. if she is not voting to end funding, she is pro war.
as noted upthread, she already voted against bringing the troops home by June 2007. She is too cowardly to take a strong stand against the war. She is a follower, not a leader in this matter.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Then I'm pro war too. By your definition most of the country is pro war
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. I hope she'll get behind this:
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-25-07 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. Some care about 1 vote convenient to their argument rather than her entire record. n/t
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