You should stand by Hillary, because Hillary stood by you.

[LoZoccolo]

Back during the Monica Lewinsky scandal, Hillary stood by Bill Clinton. If she hadn't, his approval rating probably would have dropped dramatically, there would have been big Democratic losses in the House and Senate, and Clinton would have been impeached. We would probably still be feeling the effects of that now. The Republicans would be able to blame everything on Clinton and people would believe them.

You don't have to vote for Hillary in the primary, but if you don't in the general, then you would have betrayed her after she stood by you.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

2. The one recommendation for my post cancels out your negative reply.

Back to you but more of it infinity.

[Bucky]

31. You should point out that you're rubber whereas Breeze54 is glue & thus everything Breeze 54 says...

oh, nevermind

[Breeze54]

34. ROFLMFAO!!!

:rofl:

[Breeze54]

33. lmao!

What are you, in third grade?

Whatever I say sticks to you like paper and glue?

:rofl:

[LoZoccolo]

50. It looks like all the recommendations are bouncing off you and sticking to this post. n/t

[Big Pappa]

66. Hillary

has not stood by us. She had her own personnel reasons to stick by Bills side. Hillary takes care of Hillary

[LoZoccolo]

70. What that has to do with rubber and glue, I do not know. n/t

[Big Pappa]

67. Hillary

has not stood by us. She had her own personnel reasons to stick by Bills side. Hillary takes care of Hillary

[skipos]

5. Kerry and Gore were DLC, did you vote for them? nt

[Breeze54]

30. Was there a choice?

lmao

[anitar1]

75. Thank You. n/t

[mike_c]

3. LOL-- I'm not all that fond of Bill, either....

:rofl:

[Mojambo]

4. If that's the only reason to stand by Hillary then she's more screwed than even I imagined

She stood by her husband. That's great, but it's hardly a reason to support her for president.

IMO anyway.

[xxqqqzme]

6. I will have to disagree.

Hillary stood by Bill because her political ambitions were tied to his. If he was impeached - do you think she wouls be a senator? She did it for her own political survival.

[LoZoccolo]

8. Even if she did, it still had positive effects.

But then you have to weigh whether or not she would have gotten into politics had it not been for him. She was a lawyer before, which meant lots of money and not as much public pressure; that seems a lot more attractive to me then having the news watch you all the time and have all these people not like you who didn't even know you before that.

[madaboutharry]

7. That is an interesting argument.

I think Hillary stood by Bill Clinton because she wanted to keep her marriage. I think she just loves him and was willing to work it out one more time. I don't believe that the collective "we" had anything to do with it. Face it, she is tough and she is a surviver. Most women would not have moved on from such a humiliating event and decide to run for the Senate. I honestly don't believe that anything else entered into what we witnessed. That said, it could be true that if she abandoned him the Lewinsky scandal would have damaged the democratic party even more than it did.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

127. and she loves her daughter, Chelsea

It's unbelievable (but not really) that so many people forget (or don't think) about the kids when a marriage breaks up.

[blm]

9. President Gore has a nice ring to it.

I noticed how Hillary always stands by other Dems. Like on Tora Bora where she backed Kerry all the way when BushInc was denying it.

Oops....no, she didn't.

Or like on Kerry's call for Rumsfeld to go in 2003-2004, especially after Abu Ghraib.

Oops....no she didn't then, either.

Or like when Kerry wrote a senate letter of inquiry to investigate the Downing Street Memos and Hillary backed him on that.

Oops....no, she wouldn't sign the letter.

Or like when BushInc and McCain attacked Kerry with the Rove lie that Kerry insulted the troops, and Hillary backed Kerry and called Bush out for his lies attacking a veteran who always advocated for the troops his entire career.

Oops...no she didn't. She joined Bush and McCain and scolded Kerry that his remarks were 'inappropriate' even though she knew the truth.

[LoZoccolo]

10. People stand together to stay strong.

It's called a "posse" if you are not familiar with hip-hop slang.

[blm]

16. So - where was SHE when it mattered in 2003 and 2004 or for DSM inquiry?

Or Iraq wuthdrawal? She never seems to be there when she's needed by any other Democrat.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

131. That is true; Republicans are known to love Hillary Clinton. n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

129. It the code of the mafia, after all........

[k_jerome]

13. if Clinton does not win, i would certainly get behind another New Democrat...

in the oval office.

[pennylane100]

20. Lets hope Kerry returns the favor.

Campaigning for Edwards would be a good start.

[mtnsnake]

42. Why should Kerry campaign for Edwards? Edwards sure didn't do Kerry many favors lately

[zulchzulu]

47. My guess is that Kerry (and Kennedy) will endorse Obama

Having Obama speak at the 2004 Democratic Convention was pretty much an indication to me...

[flpoljunkie]

83. Also interesting to note that several major Kerry fundraisers are going with Obama.

[karynnj]

88. What favor did Edwards do Kerry?

Kerry gave him an enormous opportunity to be VP. I think Kerry may wait till the election is nearer. I assume it will be based not on "favors" but on who he thinkd is most qualified.

Obama has been great on ethics and reform - Kerry co-sponsored an Obama amendment on this last year. If Obama is nearest to Kerry on fp in late 2007, he might be the most likely. If Obama fades or has a major stumble, maybe someone like Senator Dodd may get traction.

[TayTay]

163. I hope not

I don't think Kerry owes Edwards anything at all.

Personally, I bet he sits this one out until the Convention in Denver in 08. There is no upside to an endorsement for KErry.

[oasis]

38. Hill stood up in the senate and hoisted a news headline that proclaimed "Bush Knew".

She said New Yorker's needed to know all the facts concerning 9/11. I remember a lot of crickets chirping around her in the senate that day.That may have been the moment when she realized "discretion is the better part of valor".

[LoZoccolo]

39. Did she have Rage Against The Machine playing in the background?

That would have rocked!

[oasis]

49. Not a soul backed her up. I don't blame her for avoiding the "Joan of Arc" role

after that. She's older and wiser now and her camp is growing.:bounce:

[blm]

84. What about BEFORE that? Tora Bora? Abu Ghraib and firing Rumsfeld?

No one scolded her. No one complained she held that paper up. Why is anyone pretending that she was somehow hurt over that? And if she was supposedly hurt why would that stop her from speaking out about the TRUTH of other serious matters like Tora Bora, Abu Ghraib, swiftliars, Downing Street Memos?

[blm]

78. Sure - where did Kerry or ANYONE scold Hillary for that? No one condemned her.

No one could possibly believe THAT prevented Hillary from backing Kerry on the most important issues of the last 5 years.

She let others take on Bush for the entire time and let them take all the hits for it while his numbers steadily decreased. Then she has the NERVE and CALLOUSNESS to join Bush and McCain to SCOLD Kerry for a dropped pronoun after millions of us defended her husband for dropping his pants.

[oasis]

98. If your friends abandon you early on in your career, you may be a wee bit

hesitant to stick your neck out again.

As for Hillary "scolding" Kerry on his flub of the joke, her tone didn't seem as harsh as you portray it to be.

[blm]

100. Who abandoned her EVER? What kind of leader doesn't stick their neck out for the right

reasons?

Tora Bora wasn't a right reason? Firing Rumsfeld for Abu Ghraib wasn't a right reason? Backing up and defending the Dem presidential nominee to counter the bigname Bush supporters wasn't the right reason? Downing Street Memos wasn't the right reason? Leading the filibustering of Alito - a lifetime appointment to Supreme Court wasn't a right reason?

Can't find a camera to support Kerry on ANY of those issues, but could find a camera to support Bush and McCain to scold Kerry.

Interesting priorities.

[oasis]

102. To ask what Bush knew prior to 9/11 was risky business in those days. Ask

Cynthia McKinney.

As for "finding a camera"--Hillary doesn't have to look for cameras, they look for her.But you knew that.:-)

[blm]

105. And you know you are avoiding the basic truths about what makes the RIGHT REASON

to stick your neck out.

Love ya, o, but the truth is the truth. You can believe in the coincidence of those truths - I am not a coincidence theorist when it comes to politics - not with THAT many events to consider.

[oasis]

106. Do I want Dem candidates to be more courageous? Yes.

Meanwhile, we have who we have. Barbara Boxer, Barbara Lee, Dennis Kuchinich, Maxine Waters and Ted Kennedy have a lot of moxie, but sadly, they will never be president.

Btw, blm, I worked my tail off in my state (Hawaii) for John Kerry in 2004. Prior to that, I challenged every rabid anti-Kerry disinformation post that I saw. Mostly those who said that he was in league with the Bushies ala Skull n Bones etc.

Would I rather Kerry be president at this moment in time? You bet. My wife and I were heartsick for weeks after the election, so I know it will take a while for you to get over his dropping out.

So have at Hillary's shortcomings to your heart's content right now, but please take into consideration the fact that he may back Hillary in the primaries.

peace:hi:

[flpoljunkie]

82. Terrific post, blm!!! Please post it independently.

[truedelphi]

140. As much as I do not like Hillary, I did not know these

Things.

Am downloading your comments to my hard drive.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LoZoccolo]

14. Hey that's not nice.

I would venture to guess that you would not like it if people talked about your name.

[lvx35]

12. I just don't think her marriage is/was our business

to argue either way. We should just focus on her policies.

[Ken Burch]

15. Look, I'll support Hillary in the fall.

But you and I both know it won't really matter unless she finally breaks completely with the Iraq war, commits to not invading Iran and breaks with the globalist "free trade" thing.

We need a Democrat who supports the global working-class majority, not a few yuppies in the luxury boxes at the convention.

She'll have a better chance of getting progressive support if she stops being so obsessed with distancing herself from us. The left isn't the enemy, and it isn't the left's fault that the party lost in the Seventies and the Eighties. Any Democrat would have been unelectable next to Nixon's dirty tricks and Reagan's teflon. It would've been just as much of a blowout if we'd nominated Scoop Jackson in '72 or if we'd nominated John Glenn, Sam Nunn or Fritz Hollings in the Eighties.

The DLC's day is done. It has nothing to offer the party anymore. The day Hillary accepts that will be the day it becomes much easier to support her.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

17. I am stuck on Band-aids 'cos Band- aids stuck on me!

nt

[LoZoccolo]

18. I heard that that song is about smoking banana peels.

I don't believe it though.

[zulchzulu]

19. That has NOTHING to do with what it takes to vote for a President

Sorry...nice try...but... sheesh...

If Mrs. Clinton had left her husband, more people might have liked her...but then again, her political career would be over. Hmm...

OK...so Mrs. Clinton should get my vote to be Leader Of The Free World because she didn't leave him because he was committing adultery in the White House? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

:wtf:

[Ken Burch]

24. In fact, if Hillary HAD left Bill, the GOP would be saying

"see, Democrats have NO FAMILY VALUES!"

(Even the 'Thugs who were screwing around on THEIR wives would be saying that. Even FOLEY would've been saying it.)

[zulchzulu]

29. Who gives a rat's ass what the GOP thinks about Mrs. Clinton

All they know is that she would be the Great Mobilizer for all disjointed camps of the Republican Party to get out and vote on Election Day. You certainly can count on that...

If she left him, they's say this. She stayed, so they say that... Rock...hard place....hard place...rock...

Actually, the Republicans already see we godless, unAmerkan, baby-killin', stem-cell chewin' Demoncrats ain't got no famerly val-yoooz..."

[Oleladylib]

21. Well put and absolutely correct..She could have done immeasureable damage just to get even and say

" to hell with you all" ...Class and intelligence ...we haven't seen that in the White House...hmmm...probably, in maybe 45 years.

[crispini]

22. I bet you miss your block list don't you?

Hee. Score one for Oasis. :P

[LoZoccolo]

27. Surprisingly, there is only one post in this entire thread so far which would earn it.

See, I can handle disagreement!

I do miss it, though:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3076529&mesg_id=3076800

[The Count]

23. Let's just say, I could vote for her easier than for some con-artists

But I hope for better choices, really.

[DURHAM D]

25. Its really hard to talk to children about some things. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

28. Yeah, I know. This came out when I was nine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VG2aJyIFrA

[truedelphi]

142. And how will Iranian nine year olds feel this summer?

It's not just that these bombs annihilate so much - it's that countless childhoods have been held hostage to the fear of their
<someday> use

[saltpoint]

26. Bill's dalliance with Monica Lewinsky ought to have prompted a

discussion between man and wife about the future of their marriage.

It should never have been anyone else's business.

I did not support Bill Clinton in the primary. I will not support his wife in the primary either.

I will vote for the Democratic ticket in the general, but it has NOTHING to do with Hillary Clinton's decisions or conduct regarding her husband's affair.

[zulchzulu]

60. Quite true...

The entire situation should have never gotten past the White House walls... that's what is most tragic about the whole thing.

I remember looking at Chelsea in photos with her Dad and Mom during that time and you could practically see her heart breaking...all with the paparazzi flashers and legions of lazy MSM reporters...

[saltpoint]

71. You hit it right on the head. Chelsea was not two famous people's

celebrity daughter. She was the daughter of two parents. It hurt her to have her family's troubles and tensions splayed across every world headline there was.

That, plus the money given to Ken Starr for that sinister investigation could have been spent a whole lot better in other ways.

[illinoisprogressive]

32. Wasn'[t there already a massacre of the House in 94? There just were not that many

dems left to kill....

[oasis]

35. Hill and other loyal Dems preserved the presidency during "Monicagate".

[LoZoccolo]

36. Score one for oasis. n/t

[flpoljunkie]

85. Folks were outraged that Clinton was impeached for personal failings. Not much to do with Hillary.

[oasis]

103. If Hillary had bailed on Bill-----game over.

How many times did you hear comments like "That's their business, and if Hillary can deal with it, why can't America"?

[Lerkfish]

37. I"m going to vote for the nominee, whoever it is, but in the meantime

stop shoving Clinton in my face. The more you do, the less happy about her I become.

You're being counterproductive.

[Boo Boo]

40. Total nonesense. Really, some of the saddest reasoning I've ever seen. /nt

[Ninja Jordan]

41. Hillary stood by Hillary

Her own political career would have been over had she not "stood by her man." She isn't as innocent as you think.

[Tellurian]

165. yeah, and just think what would have happened to us..

with Newt as president?

[Texas_Kat]

43. You forgot the "snark" tags didn't you?

Hillary didn't do anything for me then, and she's still not doing anything.

In fact, it may have been part of the 'deal' that Bill made with her at the time to support her candidacy for President now.

How's that for "Clinton, Inc." Ya gotta admire them, they are effective.

[SOS]

44. "...and Clinton would have been impeached."

Clinton was impeached on December 19, 1998.

:eyes:

[LoZoccolo]

48. Oh, you know what I mean.

I'm referring to the vernacular "impeachment", not the academic "impeachment".

[Az_lefty]

45. she stood by Bill because he was her sugar daddy to political power

she is a total political animal, not a leader.

Nice try.

[peacetalksforall]

46. I stood by her all through the 90's and into the '00's when it comes

to the campaigns to assassinate the characters of the Clintons. I'll respond immediately to the claims against her and bother to take the time to defend with facts. Yesterday, today, tomorrow. But the war issue and support, plus some of her other votes is an entirely different thing. She behaved perfectly during the 90's. She carries herself perfectly in her position in the Senate. But her votes, her votes - no way. All her words have been in support of the Bush admin or in the middle. She is not a progressive. And I've become very anti-DLC. We know a lot more now.

Anyway, the need to support her for any carry over accusations by the right is a given with me - I'm there for her in a nano-second. But that doesn't relate to the war. No way. I can't go with the logic you propose.

[countmyvote4real]

51. Uh hem, she wasn’t standing by her man OR ME during Monica-gate.

She was cultivating her image for her NY Senatorial run. I personally owe her nothing for that, but “You go.”

As a NY voter that repeatedly implored her before and after the IWR vote that it was NOT a good idea, her responses over these horrible years have been consistent. She was cultivating her misguided Presidential run.

I don’t owe her a damn thing. If anything, she and her colleagues in both chambers owe America a big apology for their endorsement of the Iraq debacle. Two years ago, I might have thinly accepted the “I was deceived” excuse. It’s four years on and she still hasn’t come clean.

Bottom line: I don’t trust her judgment. If it comes down to what’s best for America or what’s best for Hillary’s ambitions, it will come down to Hillary.

I think that I’ve said enough. The bridge is burned.

[zulchzulu]

52. By that logic, we should vote for McCain because he was a P.O.W.

Sometimes, only Photoshop makes it possible...

[LoZoccolo]

53. I bet Monica would vote for Hillary, yes. n/t

[zulchzulu]

58. There's a joke there, but I'll refrain...

I don't do Leno...

[Nedsdag]

89. Great photoshop!

Because it is so, so true. If it wasn't for Monica blabbing to Linda Tripp, Hillary wouldn't be in this position let alone a Senator.

If she should win, she should credit Monica for starting the whole shebang.

[AtomicKitten]

54. I will say this LoZ.

I am pretty damn disgusted with the trashing HRC gets here at DU, so much in fact I'm thinking very seriously of moving on. It goes way beyond what any other candidate gets and in most cases is a cartoon exaggeration of what is reasonable and fair. I have said a thousand times I will not vote for anyone in the primary that voted 'yes' on the IWR, and I fully intend on following through with that. But the concerted effort here, the in-your-face and the more subtle digs against her 24/7, day after day, thread after thread are really turning my stomach. There is a distinct possibility she could become the nominee. What then?

Some have dug up the most insidious leftwing propaganda on the Clintons and post it here incessantly, the very worst of what rises from the swamps on the left, blaming the Clintons for all ills in the Democratic Party and the world. For all of the Clintons' peccadilloes, and there are many, they paid their karmic dues during the 1990s with the thorough, embarrassing, nonstop butt-reaming they got courtesy of the GOP and MSM. I am ashamed and disgusted to read the same low blow/brow crap here on a daily basis.

Hillary deserves a shot at the top job without being hamstrung from within her own party. Whatever happened to let the best man/woman win?

A big, most heartfelt feh.

[zulchzulu]

57. Agreed...but don't move on

I personally think it's way too early to have the coronation of Mrs. Clinton to begin...and I particularly think that posts that attempt to make people think we owe Mrs. Clinton anything (especially the intent here about her staying with her husband at one awful time in their relationship) only more open to ridicule and the same tendencies on other threads about her.

Should I retype that? Eh..you know what I mean.

But as the song goes, Baby, please don't go... we need your input here.

[AtomicKitten]

61. shut up

Ixnay on the sweet talk or they'll think I'm having a PM affair with a Kerry supporter.

[zulchzulu]

62. Um...OK...did I spill some on yer...aw...shucks...

What's a Kerry supporter?

[AtomicKitten]

64. cats and dogs living together ...

[Breeze54]

63. Awe! She's a war-monger. What's to like?

From Washington Post, January 18, 2007:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/17/AR2007011701926.html

“Clinton Steps Up Criticism of War in Iraq -- Senator Rejects Bush Strategy
but Steers Clear of Timetable for Troop Pullout":

Her long support for the war and past reluctance to break more significantly
with the administration have left her at odds with many liberal activists,
who will play an influential role in the Democratic nomination battle.
Yesterday, she stopped short of embracing a timetable for withdrawing troops
from the conflict, an idea many activists support...

Gheesh! I wonder why she's being trashed! :sarcasm:

---------------

From The Guardian, January 18, 2007:

http://www.guardian.co.uk./usa/story/0,,1993010,00.html

“Blow to Clinton campaign as effort to win over Iraq critics falls short":

Although she is one of the front-runners for the Democratic nomination
and has already accumulated sizeable campaign funds and an experienced
election team, she is in danger of misjudging the speed with which the
public mood is shifting against the war, and the strength of anti-war
feeling in the Democratic party...

-----------------

Hillary Clinton Lied To Keith Olbermann

Jonathan Tasini

01.25.2007

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-tasini/hillary-clinton-lied-to-k_b_39580.html

It should not come as a shock that I am no fan of Hillary Clinton. But, even I was taken
aback by her interview with Keith Olbermann just before the State of the Union address.
Hillary Clinton lied to Olbermann and to the American people. Not surprisingly, she lied
on the most important issue facing our country: Iraq.

I actually missed the interview but my friend, Marcy Winograd, a Progressive Democrats of
America activist who ran a primary challenge against another pro-war Democrat Jane Harman,
caught the interview.

Here's part of what Marcy wrote to Olbermann in an e-mail:

I caught your interview with Hillary Clinton and almost fell off my chair when you did
not challenge Hillary on her false statement "I opposed the pre-emptive war with Iraq."
Excuse me?! Whooa! Total lie. Keith, she went on the Sunday tv talk show circuit to champion
the war and cheerlead for Bush. I heard her with my own ears. And then on the Senate floor re:
the Iraq authorization, she was quoted as saying, "It's with conviction I support this resolution
as being in the best interests of our nation. It's a vote that says clearly to Saddam,
"This is your last chance. Disarm or be disarmed." She has been a huge hawk from Day 1 on the
Iraq War, continually votes to fund it, and only very recently, when all the polls indicated
she was on the wrong side, started to backtrack.

[AtomicKitten]

76. Another candidate

John Edwards, will also have to answer for his complicity in the form of co-sponsoring the IWR. He has plenty of folks willing to defend/overlook that. If HRC is guilty, so is Edwards. The lives lost make the sorrys after the fact fall on my deaf ears. All 28 Senators who voted yes are complicit. I'm certain people don't want to come across as opportunistic and disingenuous by singling out one Senator, so, let's take a moment to spread the love:

Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Breaux (D-LA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Daschle (D-SD)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hollings (D-SC)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Miller (D-GA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Schumer (D-NY)
Torricelli (D-NJ)

[Breeze54]

95. They've reneged on that vote. She refuses!

[AtomicKitten]

119. I'm sure the dead are impressed with the recanting of that vote.

[Breeze54]

121. HRC is a good Rethug War-Monger!

:sarcasm:

[AtomicKitten]

122. It is so cool to come to DU and read RW-esque epithets & slurs!

[Breeze54]

124. Here we go with the 'lock-step' mentality.

:eyes:

[AtomicKitten]

125. here we go with more knee-jerk buzzphrases ...

Just looking for fairness and reason at DU which clearly is in short supply.

[Breeze54]

126. Knee-jerk?

You assume that people whom do not like HRC just read about her recently.
:rofl:

Perhaps you are the newbie to all HRC has and hasn't done!?!

I couldn't stand HRC from way long ago. She's a war-monger!

Maybe you need more facts.

HILLARY ON IRAQ
http://www.listenhillary.org/article.php?id=762

[AtomicKitten]

128. here's something infinitely more interesting and relevant

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3077142&mesg_id=3079170

[Andromeda]

74. What you said

:)

[MH1]

55. No, she didn't. She betrayed us 1 week before the November elections,

because she was looking out for #1 and making a political play for the 2008 presidential campaign, rather then denouncing a right-wing smear campaign and standing up for Democrats.

I agree with posters upthread who say her "standing by" Bill was only to protect and cultivate her own image for her own ambition. And that is not a new opinion for me, I have always thought it. I just thought it was something I could live with until she showed how low she would stoop for her own ambition.

Nope, I don't owe her a damn thing. She already betrayed me. And as played out yesterday, she had a hand in betraying the country.

[LiberalUprising]

56. ?????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :ro
fl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dailykoff]

59. Just another self-serving lie.

Q: How did Hill's pretense of innocence help Bill?

A: It didn't. It just made things worse for him when the truth came out, and, of course, better for her.

[Imagevision]

65. Most people will wait until they've heard what most of the candidates have said

before supporting them further by electing them in the primary's

[IndianaGreen]

68. If by "you," you meant Dick Cheney, then Hillary did stand by him

on his war of choice in Iraq, and the suppression of civil liberties at home.

MoveOn did more to protect Big Dog than Hillary ever did.

In retrospect, and hindsight being 20/20, had Clinton been convicted by the Senate, Al Gore would be President today.

[wildflowergardener]

69. my feeling

My impression at the time was she stood by him because of her political ambition. It had nothing to do with us. It also makes me think she doesn't really have all that much respect for herself, to stay with a man who would embarrass her so publicly and cheat on her. I feel bad for the way she was treated by Bill Clinton, who I, btw thought was a good president, but what he did was wrong, and I think she should have probably left for her own dignity.

Meg

[Trajan]

72. I vote Democratic Party ....

And it seems more important now than ever ....

I still prefer a moderate Democrat to a BOOSH any fucking day of the week ....

Perfect ? ... far from it ..... but the better choice ? ....

Easy answer .... yes ....

If the choice is between Hillary and Jebbie or some other equally idiotic republican : then Hill wins ...

If the choice is between Hillary or just some idiotic republican : then Hill wins again ...

I greatly doubt Hillary is hated SO much by DUers that they would actually vote for the repuke instead .... if they did ? : THAT is vindictiveness cubed .... Furthermore: as much as I adore my fellow DUers (and I do, you know I do), at 100,000 rather opinionated forum members, the actual weight carried by the percentage here that 'hates' Hillary is extremely puny compared to the electorate as a whole .... The number of moderate republican women who will jump ship just to vote for a women will far outweigh the rancorous nonvote from the Hillary haters when it comes down to it that November in 2008 ....

Either way : IF Hillary survives the primary season: she wins ....

I love all DUers ..... but those who profess they will not vote for her will simply not have an impact come that day .....

I adore your passion .... but I will be glad when Hillary wins against Rudy, or McCain, or Brownback, et al .....

JUST as glad as if Kucinich won ......

[Imagevision]

73. I lost it for Hillary after seeing Bill hanging out with George H.W. Bush so often...

[hertopos]

77. I am sick and tired of Hillary bashing!!

There are many Democrats who voted for Iraq. There are many Democrats who voted to support Bush. I don't agree with her all the time. I also believe she is a shrewed politician.

However, so are Bill and Obama. Obama made a few comment in the past that suggests he is actually a centrist. Well, everyone knows where Bill stands.

But I never hear any outcry against them.

What bothers me most about DU regarding Hilary is some of very emotional reaction and judgment!! What is all this about 'she sounds so fake!!'.

First of all, I am a working mother myself. I gave her a lot of credit by looking at her daughter. She did a one hell of a great job. That shows her basic character.

I think Hilary is more like Gore in 2000. She is still stiff and she does not have Bill or Obama's natural charisma!!

However, I like Hillary as much as I like Gore. Both of them can become one of the most competent president. Those are two people who can solve our most pressing two problems, global warming/energy policy and health care!!

This is my two cents. I did not like many things Bill did. But I still like him a lot as a president. Carter may be a nice guy but he was a failed president since he could not persuade the nation to go to the right direction. Instead, his failed presidency enabled Repubs!!

I prefer strong candidate who can stand up against Repub attack.
At end of day, many working mothers will vote for Hillary including many moderate Republican woman. Right now, it is much easier to go along 'Hillary bashing' since it is so fashionable.

Oh, one more thing. I could not believe that some DUer was concerned about 'woman president' in general. They even questioned our former madame secretary's effectiveness. Are you kidding? She is so well connected and she speaks so many languages.

You may not like Hillary. But you should not question her ability to be a president!!

I am so fed up with DUer's sexism from both male and female DU progressives.

Hertopos

[Robbien]

79. Bullcrap

There is Clinton bashing because of threads such as this one which just begs for the bashing to start.

Thread Orders: "STAND BY HILLARY"

Oh yeah like that is not begging to be bashed.

[Nedsdag]

90. So in other words,

You believe that two families should run this country for 36 years if Hillary is elected and re-elected?

At this moment, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington, Hamilton, Madison and Adams are turning over in their graves. This is not what the founding fathers aimed for when they signed the Declaration of Independence and drafted the U.S. Constitution.

As Larry Sabato so wisely put it: "The is the American Republic, not a banana republic."

[oasis]

136. "This is not what the founding fathers aimed for". Could women vote in those days?

You may be on to something here.

[Nedsdag]

154. OK, I left that out.

But do you have to admit I have a point.

If Hillary wins, do we get Jeb or George P. as the next President?

Dynasty is a TV show starring Joan Collins, not an American political philosophy.

[oasis]

158. Our U.S. Constitution says the voters get to choose. Who you or I think

ought to be in the WH doesn't matter unless the majority think the same way.

As far as dynasties are concerned, there has also been a 200 year gender dynasty. That gets overlooked in many of these discussions.

[sendero]

80. You're joking..

... right? This is some kind of leg pull?

[LoZoccolo]

81. No. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

86. Hillary is not my first choice, by any means. But...

I've seen far too many people here spending more energy knocking Hillary than promoting their own choices.

Seems like some people are more interested on sowing discord than telling us why their favorite should get the nomination.

[GeorgeGist]

87. Pretzel logic ...

probably isn't true. I won't vote for Hillary in the primary.

[Adelante]

91. I have no problem voting for Hillary in the GE

Or any other Democratic nominee.

[Apollo11]

92. Bill Clinton should have resigned in February 1999

Bill was wrong to abuse his position of power over a vulnerable Whitehouse intern.

He was doubly wrong to try covering it up by making misleading public statements.

We would now be entering the 9th year of a 10-year Gore Presidency !!

This is the maximum term allowed under the 22nd amendment.

Just imagine !!

Let's all find ways to show our support for Al Gore! :)

In Gore We Trust
www.algore.com
www.algore.org
www.draftgore.com - Sign the petition!
www.draftgore2008.org
www.patriotsforgore.com

[oasis]

99. Trash Bill Clinton while cheerleading for Al Gore? Way to go pilgrim.

:yourock:

[Hippo_Tron]

116. Clinton's blowjobs should never have been any of our business in the first place

And certainly not the business of a special prosecutor. Ken Starr's conduct was completely unjustified and that's why I'm okay with Bill's misleading public statements. Starr had no business questioning him about Monica.

[MH1]

120. Sexual harrassment of an employee is relevant. n/t

[oasis]

139. So you actually believe that Monica was being harrassed by Bill Clinton?

:wow:

[MH1]

143. Do you know the LEGAL definition of "sexual harassment"?

It has nothing to do with anyone's opinion on the matter, including the participants.

Laws exist for a reason.

And I do believe Bill Clinton violated the spirit of that law, even if somehow he could twist his way out of it on a technicality.

I have not pushed this point before, but now that I have seen Hillary's true colors...she could not keep her mouth shut when it counted, let alone say what she should have... I have no reason to keep mine shut about this point which has bothered me since the Lewinsky stuff came out.

That said, I think it is insane the way Ken Starr pursued Clinton, I think impeachment of Clinton was insane in comparison to what Bush has gotten away with....and in general, a person's sex life should be off-limits even if they are the President. But Monica WORKED for Clinton, and that is a line he was wrong to cross.

[oasis]

149. "Laws exist for a reason". Thank you for your insight, Inspector Javert.

:eyes:

[catgirl]

93. Clinton's Ratings Did Go Down

Hillary didn't save him from impeachment.
Anyway, She didn't stand by me at all, and
I won't stand by her unless she ends up winning
the primaries (please run Al Gore!).

[karynnj]

94. I will make the opposite case - in 2 ways

First I will assume part of your scenario is true and Clinton gets impeached. Here is my scenario in that event:

Al Gore is then President. He immediately goes to the nation, with Tipper and his family at his side, and speaks about this as a national trauma and promises first and foremost to never lie to the American people.

He gives a speech that balances crediting the Clintons for what they did, but that this shows no one is above the law. When you swear to tell the whole truth, you tell the whole truth. He then would lay out his agenda. (The issue was lying, not sex.)

He would make the point that much of that agenda is the agenda of Bill Clinton. He would also have added global warming - it was his passion since the 1970s. He would have had to sell the concern, because he would not have had an "Al Gore" who was doing it. (The Clinton years did little for this - he didn't choose to use polical capital to fight for CAFE standard improvements or anything on this.)

This would have enabled the Democrats to be the ones who REALLY brought back dignity to the White House and it would have led to Gore having been in office for 2 years. Gore as an incumbent would have an advantage over Gore as a VP.

This would have meant that Gore would have led the party in 1998. There would be less need for people to vote their displeasure in 1998 or 2000. This leads to a Gore victory in 2000 that is unstealable. Gore would have listened to the Hart/Rudman report and would have listened to people, such as Kerry - who Gore respected, saying the ports and airports needed to be secured.

Scenario 2 -
Hillary divorces Bill. How does that change the position of even one Senator? Doesn't happen. Everything is as happened - except Bill is single.

OR

something is different.

Now, think of where we are now - Could things have come out worse? I don't think so. The biggest change in Democratic Congressional strength was 1994. The Democrats in the House who survived that were the stronger ones.

Gore in 2000 distanced himself from Clinton, but people still associated him with Clinton. But I don't see how it could be worse - than what happened - Bush became President.

[LoZoccolo]

97. You overlook something in scenario 2, though.

The 1998 election could have tipped the balance to the Republicans. The Senators might not vote differently, but there may have been different Senators. I think there is a lot of speculation in your theory as well, a lot of events depending on other events.

[SOS]

101. "The 1998 election could have tipped the balance to the Republicans"

1998 results:
Senate - unchanged
House - Democrats +5

Totals:
House: Republicans 223, Democrats 211
Senate: Republicans 55, Democrats 45

[LoZoccolo]

107. Those are the actual results.

In my scenario, Hillary not standing by Bill causes other people to look unfavorably on him, and during the 1998 elections, the Republicans gain the two-thirds majority they need to remove Bill Clinton from office.

[SOS]

123. 16 seats were up in the Senate

which was 6 weeks before the impeachment.

The Republicans would have needed 11 gains to convict. This assumes that Reps like Chaffee would have gone along, which is doubtful.

Do you really think Senators like Leahy (72%-23%), Boxer (53-43), Graham( 63-37), Inouye (79-18) Mikulski (71-29) and Leahy 72-23)
would have lost their seats because Hillary dumped Bill?

The Republicans could not have gotten the votes to convict. Period.
Your scenario is not viable.

[MH1]

157. If Bill was removed from office wouldn't that mean Gore became President?

And, as pointed out above, he would have gone into 2000 with incumbent advantage.

I was praying for Clinton to resign when it turned out he'd lied under oath. (plus the fact that Monica worked for him makes it look awfully like sexual harassment, which I take seriously, having known people in that situation)

But then, I was a Gore fan since 1992 and only warmed to Clinton when he chose Gore as veep. So, I thought at the time perhaps my preference for Clinton to resign came from that. And I did admire Clinton's toughness for sticking it out. Still, in hindsight I think the country would have been better off if he'd resigned.

[karynnj]

109. Could it have ended up worse?

I also seriously don't see that Clinton being impeached and not thrown out of office - and divorced would be any different than Clinton being impeached and not thrown out of office - but still married. Some of the anti-Clinton feeling may come from people thinking he got off scot free.

[area51]

104. uh-huh.

She certainly stood by Tata Consulting, and she's certainly interested in increasing the offshoring/inshoring of American jobs in order to make more Americans unemployed. Yeah, a pro-war, pro-offshoring right-winger like Hillary is certainly someone we need as prez. :eyes: </sarcasm>

[LoZoccolo]

108. Can we have a serious discussion about a female politician without mentioning Tata? n/t

[dailykoff]

110. Who has she ever stood by?

Her own constituents slaughtered in Manhattan by we know who? She knows, and she's known all along, and so has Bill, but when will we ever hear a peep out of either of them apart from the occasional exploitive campaign slogan or photo op?

When hell freezes over, that's when.

[LoZoccolo]

111. You. n/t

[dailykoff]

112. When? (n/t)

[LoZoccolo]

113. 1998 and thereafter. n/t

[MH1]

117. She betrayed us in 2006.

I disagree with the rest as well, but it is moot anyway.

[Larkspur]

114. Hillary stands for shipping good paying American jobs overseas

that and her pathetic position on Iraq is why I won't support her period.

[Hippo_Tron]

115. Here's another argument in only two words: Supreme Court

If you don't vote Democratic in the general election then you are enabling the GOP to put right wingers on the bench, and frankly we have enough of that.

Hillary gets my vote in the general election without a second thought simply because I'd much have another Ginsburg than another Alito.

That said, Obama and Edwards would both literally have to eat babies on national TV before I'd support her in the primaries. And even then I might still vote for Vilsack or Richardson over her.

[MH1]

118. Arguable point, except I don't even trust her on that.

In fact, if she nominates an untrustworthy corporatist, a Dem Senate won't be able to shoot the nomination down. If a Republican is president but we have a Dem Senate, the Senate will be able to at least have a say in the SC nomination, and they won't be shackled by "party unity" nonsense to roll over for a bad nominee.

[MadHound]

130. Now that's probably the most obtuse, speculative, tortured piece of bullshit excuse I've seen

To vote for Clinton. Sorry, but BS such as that simply won't move me to vote for a warmongering corporate whore.

[bobbolink]

132. BWAHAHAHAHA!!

The DLC strikes again.

:puke:

[LoZoccolo]

133. Why do you say that?

I am not, nor have I ever been, a member or an operative of the DLC.

[bobbolink]

160. Hillary is.

The argument is bogus.

At least Edwards is speaking for me.

Hillary doesn't give a rip, except for herself.

[HughBeaumont]

134. Stand by ME?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html

Did she stand up for the workers and my beliefs when she made this speech? Or did she think there wasn't such a thing as the Internet to call her on her "rising tide lifts all boats" bullshit?

[rhombus]

135. What a flimsy reason to support Hillary

I'm not voting of her in the primay, but sure, if she wins the nomination she gets my vote for the general election. Not bcos she stood by Bill, but bcos I want a Democrat in the WH. Far better than a Repub.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. Frankly, I think Bill should leave her.

He could do better.

I know I'm not going to settle for her.

[LoZoccolo]

144. I hope you are aware that there are eighteen people who disagree with you.

Look up there at the bottom of the OP and read it for yourself.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

146. And?

Oooo. 18 people like Hillary. Tell me again when the election's over.

[LoZoccolo]

148. Eighteen to one: you are outnumbered.

One person's vote cancels out yours, and then there are seventeen more.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

153. Uh huh.

I guess it's a shame this isn't an election then.

[ulysses]

138. I doubt that Hillary gives a rat's ass about me. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

145. If it were not for Hillary, we would almost certainly be under martial law.

They would have blamed 9/11 on Clinton much more than they did, and would have rounded up everyone who even shook his hand at a fundraiser and banned the Democratic Party. You are a member of the Democratic Party, right?

Hillary cares. About you.

[ulysses]

147. ha! good one!

You are a member of the Democratic Party, right?

Yup. Why do you ask?

[LoZoccolo]

150. I wanted to make sure you knew that Hillary stood by you. n/t

[ulysses]

151. funny, I'm still not feeling the love.

:shrug:

[MadHound]

159. Mighty long trip from here to there pal

And no obvious path to trod. How in the hell do you rationalize this statement you made? Martial law? Please, stop overreacting OK. It does Hillary no good and makes you look foolish:shrug:

[Flabbergasted]

141. She would have had no fucking chance of a political career if she had abandoned

Bill. It was in her own best interest not ours. She would have been far braver if she had said piss off Bill....

I'm not betraying her. You are deceiving yourself...

[mayflower]

152. If I Don't Will You Twist My Arm Behind My Back Till I Scream Uncle?

...cause I ain't.

[Seabiscuit]

155. I'll stand by her if she doesn't mind standing beside me...

while I get a little reckless while using the urinal.

"Ooooo... not on my Prada shoes!!! Eeeeeeeek!!!!!"

[election_2004]

156. This is one of the stupidest posts I've ever read at DU....

How on Earth does Hillary supporting her husband equate to her "standing by me"?

Nice try, though...

[mdmc]

161. he would have resigned

and Gore would be in term #2

[Imagevision]

162. The GOP tell us that Hillary will be our front runner, how mighty white of them...

[TayTay]

164. That makes no sense whatsoever

You want this personal matter to be a reason to vote for Hillary for President? Fine, then that means that her personal life is fair game for the media to investigate.

Is this what you really want? You think the articles about the Clinton's marriage are fair game for specualtion?

Plus, I was irritated with Hillary for sticking with Bill. I thought it made her look weak and political. So, if you are opening this up to voting or not voting for people based on what happened in their personal life, that is my opinion.

[HuffleClaw]

166. yer joking right?

she 'stood' by bill ONLY to further her own political career, it sure as hell wasn't for bill or the democrats. that said, i would guess the vast majority of hillary nay-sayers will, should she get the nomination, vote for her despite their current carping.