Did Hillary Clinton have to (as she claims) "work harder because she's a woman"

[Clarkie1]

Poll question: Did Hillary Clinton have to (as she claims) "work harder because she's a woman"

I just watched a video of her appearance in Iowa, and her statement to the crowd, "I don't think I'm the only woman here who has felt that sometimes you have to work a little harder because your a woman" left me cold.

She hasn't had to work harder...she's had it easier riding her husband's coattails. I find the statement very disingenuous coming from her, although I would not have found it to be coming from other women who have had to work harder to get where they are.

[Warpy]

1. Back in the mid 60s, about the same time she was applying to

college, I learned I had to make a full 100 points more on my SAT than a male student would have to in order to be admitted to engineering school.

Fortunately, it wasn't that difficult for me.

However, yes, women our age had to work a whole lot harder than any man did and we're still getting only about 70 cents to every dollar he makes.

[hlthe2b]

5. Even more extreme for women applying to Med, Vet, or Dental

Schools....It SO angers me that any progressive men would deny that in concert with our most RW counterparts...

[Clarkie1]

10. See my post #7. nt

[kikiek]

39. It's like saying that the playing field is level and anti discrimination laws aren't

needed anymore. Don't have to even scratch the surface for the ugliness of discrimination to appear. We have a very long way to go yet.

[xultar]

29. Zactly.

[Arkansas Granny]

47. It was the same in many fields. Most people under the age of

40 don't relate to the fact that in those days you could be turned down for a position because of your sex, marital status, number of dependents, etc. It was much harder for women in the 60's and 70's than it is today to make a place for themselves in the professional world and we're still not competing on a perfectly level playing field.

[asjr]

48. Right on! Those of us who

experienced it will never forget. We were expected to do twice the work at half the pay.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

2. I remember the days when she was practicing law in LR.

This was, of course, when she was also "First Lady" of Arkansas and carrying out those duties. I knew some male (Republican) lawyers who hated her then, but it was mostly because she kicked their asses and was more successful than they were.

[xultar]

27. ZING!!! BANG!!!! BOOM!!!! Exactly.

[Lord Byron]

3. No she didn't have to work harder

Enough of her.

[hlthe2b]

4. I don't mean to overly assume anything...

but I'm guessing those who question that claim are overwhelmingly NOT FEMALE, or at least not baby boomer females. :shrug:

[Clarkie1]

7. I guess I was thinking more in terms of her getting to where she is now.

Not back in the 60s, 70s, etc.

Clearly she has not had to work as hard as most to be where she's at in the Democratic primary process....or the U.S. senate.

That's because of her husband.

I do not doubt she faced some discrimination like all other women earlier in her life.

[beaconess]

11. She wouldn't BE where she is now if it weren't for what she achieved in the 60s and 70s

against many odds.

Laura Bush could not be a U.S. Senator and certainly isn't anything close to being qualified to run for president, no matter how hard she tried to ride her husband's coattails.

Moreover, much of the advantage she got from being Bill Clinton's wife has been offset by the damage she has gotten because she is Bill Clinton's wife. Yes, she enjoyed a bully pulpit as First Lady. But she was also subjected to the most vicious attacks, hate, had obstacles thrown in her path, was dragged through hell, as well. A woman with Hillary's accomplishments, married instead to John Smith, could have a successful political career without all of the crap that Hillary has to drag around behind her because she's married to a man that a significant number of crazy people hate.

Hillary is where she is today because she worked damned hard. Yes, being Bill Clinton's wife put her in the spotlight and gave her a forum for her work. But had she not been an enormously accomplished woman in her own right, no amount of coattails would have helped her.

[hlthe2b]

14. EXACTLY

thank you.

[Arkansas Granny]

40. Thank you for putting my thoughts into a comprehensible statement.

Hilary could not have arrived at the point she has today on coattails alone. Name recognition has certainly helped her, in some respects, and has hurt her in others. The fact remains, however, that is was her own efforts and hard work that put her into the position she is in today.

[MaryBear]

92. Thank you for all your well written posts in this thread, beaconess!

I cannot believe the number of folks who buy into the slander about Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Agree or disagree with her point of view, people, please at least make an effort to see through the muck that is constantly thrown at her to keep us from seeing the benefits to her work over the years.

DU'ers! Don't buy into the rethug garbage throwing machine!

[hlthe2b]

12. Clarkie1: Sadly this statement shows you JUST DON'T GET IT

perhaps some others are better prepared to discuss this with you and I hope that they will... I find it too depressing...:shrug:

[Clarkie1]

17. I get woman have been discriminated against and still are.

But I don't buy it that Hillary has had to work harder than most to get where she is since her husband has been in the WH.

[havocmom]

19. LOL HE MIGHT NOT HAVE HAD COATTAILS but for his clever, hard working partner

And since the WH, he has been a liability to her in many ways with many audiences.

[Clarkie1]

24. You have got to be kidding.

Do you seriously think Hillary would be where she is now if it wasn't for the fact she was the wife of the last popular Democratic president?

[beaconess]

30. Do YOU seriously think he would be the last popular Democratic president had he not been married to

Hillary?

[Clarkie1]

33. Yes. nt

[beaconess]

37. Then you know nothing about Clinton's career

Even Clinton himself doesn't think that.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

90. Yes, as a matter of fact - I do believe that Hillary would be a serious

contender for presidential politics with or without Bill. She has a long history of working on issues before Bill ever appeared on the horizon. She is smart, savvy, and out works anyone who gets in her way. You are truly disingenuous if you think she hasn't had to work harder because she is a woman. If she were a man she would have been president 10 years ago.

When you compare Hillary to repugs like Mitch McConnell or Brownback, Sessions, or Specter, or...hell ANY repug Senator, and how easily they coast to victory election after election and then say she is coasting on her husband's coattails is insulting to many women.

I think you must be confusing Hillary will Libby Dole or Elaine Chao or any of the other reichwingnuts feminazis who parrot the party line for god and the GOP.

And, yes, I'm of the age that remembers well working twice as hard for half the money while taking care of three children,a house, laundry, meals, homework, paying all the bills and the endless lists of minutia of life. Kinda of like the old quote about Ginger Rogers - she did the same thing as Fred Astaire except she did it backward and in high heels.

Are things changing, little by little, but your original post show we still have a long way to go.

[beaconess]

102. nice n/t

[xultar]

31. EXACTLY!!!

[havocmom]

16. Guess your poll missed a lot of the reality of the situation?

Just GETTING to college was harder if one had plumbing which was more internal ;)

And, not only did she have to work as hard or harder to get where she is, Bill probably wouldn't have gone as far without her hard work, to say nothing of her sharp brain.

She is not my choice, but the woman should be respected for what she has accomplished. And it would have been much easier for her if the gender were different.

[beaconess]

22. That's an EXCELLENT point - Any coattails that Bill Clinton provided, he got

in large part because of the tremendous work and sacrifices his wife made. So it's really disingenous to claim that she got where she is today because of him - as if she spent the first 25 years of their marriage laying around the house eating bon-bons and watching soap operas while he became the Big Dog all by himself.

[havocmom]

9. Safe bet

They also might have trouble seeing the amazing amount of harassment that went on in the open back in the days Hillary and many of us were coming of age and making our way.

[beaconess]

6. Um - her husband didn't have any "coattails" until Hillary was pretty far along in her career

I have no doubt that she - like most women - has had to work harder than her male counterparts.

And she' STILL having to work harder to prove herself than her male counterparts. Male candidates with similar or less experience don't have to consistently prove that they are capable of being Commander in Chief, which will be a constant issue for Hillary throughout this campaign. Pointing this out isn't whining or complaining or asking for special favors. It's just stating a fact.

[kikiek]

8. She still is. Easy riding her husband coattails? Please. You just answered the question.

Women must be riding their husband coattails if they make it anywhere. Very misogynist in tone.

[Clarkie1]

13. I disagree.

Look, if Hillary had been president and Bill the VP back then, and Bill was running now, would you not say that Bill was riding Hillary's coattails?

C'mon. Enough of the political dynasties.

[kikiek]

18. I wouldn't say that about anyone who has works as hard as she does. Look, would you

be acknowledging her accomplishments even if she wasn't married to Bill. I think not.

[Clarkie1]

21. Of course I would acknowledge her accomplishments!

I acknowledge her accomplishments now. All I'm saying if it wasn't for Bill she would not be a U.S. freshwoman senator from N.Y. right now with the best shot according the media of being the nominee.

[havocmom]

81. If not for the decades she gave working with Bill's career,

it is VERY possible she would have been a senator SOONER.

[xultar]

26. Exactly. This poll is sexist bullshit.

[kikiek]

43. I'm with you. It is sickening how rabidly she is attacked.

[mtnsnake]

104. Hey, that's a sexist remark. Why does shit always have to be the masculine version

as in "bullshit"? Why isn't it ever "cowshit"? As a male, I'm deeply offended that shit is always associated with us males and never with females. :evilgrin:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

15. if she wasn't married to bill, does anyone actually believe that

she would be a front runner in certain polls?
or that she would have been annointed senator of NY while not even living there?


hardly.

that is not to say that she doesn't work hard. She does. She polls each and every issue extremely toughly before she wonders about whether or not to decide to consider the possibility of allowing the thought of choosing between numerous options to cross her mind.

I always faulted Bill for leading by poll result, yet he had the brilliance and innate ability to rise above it on occasion. It is my gut feeling that she does not have that capacity, or if she does, it hides far below the surface.

Richardson, Edwards, Gore, Pelosi, - these folks may use polling data, but they also stand for something that may be unpopular in some circles, because they believe in it and because the facts support that position. IMHO, any one of them would be a far better candidate and better president. And I suspect that all four of them work just as hard, if not harder, than Hillary.

[xultar]

25. No, She's good. She can be good on her own. It is SEXIST to think that she

can only make it because of her husband. Mainly because her husband's playing around causes so many issues for the party.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

49. is it sexist to look at the facts?

Do I call Pelosi's superb success inppropriate? hell no. What she did, she did on her own, with her sweat, her talents, and her skills. Pelosi is superb and she got there through one of the toughest neighborhoods on this planet - a backstabbing, greedy, unethical and powerhungry place called the US House of Representatives. That she carried it out with dignity, honesty, and great success is due to her talents and hard work.

hillary has worked hard. She is smart. She is capable as a senator and she certainly worked hard as a first lady of Arizona and the US.
BUT SHE WOULD NOT BE THE FRONT RUNNER in a Rasmussen poll if she were simply Hillary Rodham. There is no way that a Chicago born, Arizona raised, lawyer with NO OTHER CONNECTION TO NEW YORK could ever be elected senator of the third largest state in the country. It wasn't going to happen. Never. Nope. It was only because her husband was president did this golden path become available to her, starting with her multi million dollar pay off for her book.

[xultar]

56. Believe it or not...there is a whole fucking planet out there! Millions of people

like her DU is not the world.

If you doubt it...just go out and take your own poll and go to black neighborhoods.

She's well liked in the Black community.

DU is just a tiny place compared t the rest of the country.

[Clarkie1]

59. I agree with you. Perhaps I should have phrased the poll question differently.

A lot of people did not interpret it in the way I meant it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

64. and Identical question. Would W be president had his dad not been president?

Of course not. W would never made it as a businessman. He never would have been elected governor. He never would have made his connections to dig dry holes in Texas.

The same logic that applies to W's ascendency applies to Hillary.

[Clarkie1]

69. I agree...and it bothers me. nt

[dsc]

89. that is baldly false

She was valedictorian of Welsey before she met Clinton (who she met in law school). I will let Wikipedia continue

As a child, Hillary was involved in many activities at church and at a public school in Park Ridge. Rodham was fond of sports including tennis, ice skating, ballet, swimming, volleyball, and softball. She earned many awards as a Brownie and Girl Scout.<1> Prior to graduating from Maine South High School, she attended Maine East High School, where she served as class president, a member of the student council, a member of the debating team, and as a member of the National Honor Society. During her last year of high school, she received the school's first social science award. Raised in a politically conservative Republican family<2>, in 1964 (at age 16) Hillary Rodham campaigned for Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.<3> Her parents encouraged her to pursue the career of her choice.<3>

In 1965, Rodham enrolled at Wellesley College where she became active in politics, serving as president of the Wellesley College Chapter of the College Republicans. During her junior year in 1968, Rodham was affected by the death of civil rights leader Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., whom she had met in person in 1962.<1> After attending the "Wellesley in Washington" program at the urging of Professor Alan Schechter, her political views became more in tune with American liberalism and she joined the Democratic Party. Named valedictorian of her graduating class at Wellesley, Rodham graduated in 1969 with departmental honors in Political Science. She became the first student in Wellesley College history to deliver their commencement address.<4> The Associated Press reported at the time that her speech received a standing ovation lasting seven minutes.<5> She was featured in an article published in Life magazine because of the response to her speech, which was controversial in that it criticized Republican Senator Edward W. Brooke, who had spoken before her.<1>

In 1969, Rodham entered Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of Yale Review of Law and Social Action and worked with underprivileged children at the Yale-New Haven Hospital. During the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at the Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts. During the late spring of 1971, she began dating Bill Clinton, also a Yale Law School student. During the summer of 1971, she traveled to Washington to work on Senator Walter Mondale's subcommittee on migrant workers, researching migrant problems in housing, sanitation, health and education. For the summer of 1972, Rodham worked in the western states for Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern's campaign. During her second year in law school, she volunteered at the Yale Child Study Center, learning about new research on early childhood brain development. She also took on cases of child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital and worked at the city Legal Services, providing free legal service to the poor. She received a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree from Yale in 1973, having written a thesis on the rights of children,<1> and began a year of post-graduate study on children and medicine at the Yale Child Study Center.

end of quote

Now go ahead. Tell me one, single, solitary accomplishment of Bush that compares to the record that Hillary had before dating Bill in 1971. Go ahead I am waiting with baited breath.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

95. ah. erh. ah, hmmmm. erh.

Oh wait, I know!

He was a cheerleader in college!

[Captain Hilts]

20. Being female carries a straight-jacket of expectations. nt

[xultar]

23. It's obvious you don't like Hillary. I think you need to know the Clintions are good friends

with and respect Wesley Clark.

Why do you keep posting such negative posts about her? I need you to explain that to me.

[Clarkie1]

28. I don't think she deserves to be the first woman president.

I don't like the fact she is running on her husband's record, and I don't like her IWR vote and her inability to admit is was the wrong vote.

That's just a few of the big ones, for starters.

[beaconess]

32. How does one DESERVE to be the first woman president?

Of course, if Clark gets the nomination, you will be royally pissed off if he lets Hillary Clinton campaign for him, given your opposition to any "coattail riding" in general and your obvious disdain for her in particular?

[xultar]

36. Exactly. I think I'm going to put people who post shit like this on my

ignore list.

[Clarkie1]

52. No.

I just don't like the idea of the queen succeeding the king. Or the prince succeeding the king.

Enough of the political dynasties.

[xultar]

34. Oh come the fuck on here. Your posts are OBVIOUS and I'm so surprised that a CLARK supporter

would be this way. VERY SHOCKED. IT makes us look like SHIT.

[Clarkie1]

38. Look, not all Clark supporters should be expected to have the same opinion.

You have yours, and I have mine and I will continue to state what I believe.

Hope you do too.

[xultar]

41. Well I can't bare to read anymore of your anti-Hillary posts. Especially the sexist ones.

So goodbye to you. I'd never thought I'd do this to a fellow Clark supporter.

[Captain Hilts]

74. I'm a Clarkie and I think a competitive primary process helps all candidates.

May the best candidate win!

Folks, it's going to be fun. We've got a lot of good candidates to chose from.

[MaryBear]

109. She has said it was a mistake.

When asked, she has said it.

How can you say one more than another of them ran on each others coattails?

They are a team.

[MaryBear]

110. And she may well have gone further on her own.

She is brilliant, etc. as so well put by others in this thread. How many people match her positive descriptors? How many in the house, senate, or white house. We would be fortunate to have her run.

[Lerkfish]

35. yes and no. Yes, unfortunately, women have to work harder to achieve

some things than men. Its not right, and it should be fixed.

but no, Ms. Clinton did not have to work hard to become senator: she had a built-in name recognition, and she carpetbagged her residence to a district that would be favorable to her. This is different from representatives who have spent decades working in the districts they represent, getting to know the people and their concerns. Does this make her different from a lot of senators? no, but it also doesn't mean she worked harder than a male OR female with no built in name recognition, who has lived in his/her district and has gotten elected from his/her good work with the constituents.

Additionally, I think its right to say once one HAS a political position that they work hard while performing the job, but to say they worked hard to get there is par for the course, and usually involves the tireless work of volunteers and campaign strategists, or in her case, corporate sponsors fronting the bill.

just my two cents.


But do I blame her? no, she's playing the gender card to her advantage, just like other politicians use their "immigrant up by his bootstraps" card, or their "success in the private sector that translates" card or whatever. Every candidate tries to use anything about themselves they think will get votes. That's why you see a lot of candidates display their families like dusted bric a brac during the campaign and then you never see them again.

I"d be much more impressed if she didn't use the gender card at all. And I'd be impressed if any politician would do the same, eschewing their cards in place of being clear about their platforms upfront and allowing the voters to make a decision based on what the politician is likely to do, rather than elements of themselves they were born with and have nothing to do with, after all. Clinton could not choose to be born female, nor could Obama choose to be born a minority. Using these unalterable characteristics as reasons to vote for anyone is as bad as voting for George Macaca Allen because he's white and male.

again, just my two cents.

[beaconess]

42. You sound as if you think HRC sprung to life the day Clinton was inaugurated

This woman is HIGHLY accomplished in her own right - and, in fact, was far more accomplished than Clinton was when they met and married. Despite putting her own career on hold to advance his, she nevertheless achieved incredible things ON HER OWN in Arkansas and then as First Lady. And only the most rabid Hillary haters would insist that Bill Clinton's political success didn't owe in large measure to the hard work and achievements of his wife, who in so many ways made it possible for him to get where he did.

So to suggest that, somehow, Hillary Clinton is where she is today ONLY because of her husband is, in my view, bullshit.

In fact, I have no doubt that, had she NOT been married to Clinton, she would have gone into politics herself much sooner and would probably be about right where she is now.

[Lerkfish]

51. Have I said that?

I don't recall saying she was elected because of her husband.

I said she had built in name recognition, and she does. As you point out, she is highly accomplished in her own right with her own legal career, and was a very effective and visible first lady. I'm not even considering her husband, except peripherally in that observation. If anything, I think her husband works against her, so we agree on that.

How you think I "sound as if" is incorrect conjecture on your part.

[mnhtnbb]

44. So, Clarkie1, are you male or female? I'm not a Hillary supporter

but I know what she means from personal experience--at least in terms of how hard she had to work before she tied up with Bill.

Her comment was intended to create identification with other career women--particularly in our age bracket.

So although I can personally vouch for having to work harder (and be subjected to sexual harassment during my career as a hospital administrator from mid 70's to mid 80's)I still do not support her because of her views on the war, her Goldwater-esque support of corporatism, her lack of respect for Moms who choose raising kids and community activism over full-time careers.

[xultar]

45. Great Post! He's a doode. A man. A male. That explains it soo much but it doesn't explain.

why he sounds like a jealous woman in his anti-Hillary posts.

[Clarkie1]

54. Perhaps I misread her statement.

I took it to mean she was implying she had to work harder to be the Democratic nominee, and had not benefited from being the wife of a popular president.

Obviously, almost all women have faced and still face some degree of discrimination in the workplace.

[beaconess]

58. How do you get "I had to work hard to be the Democratic nominee and haven't gotten any benefit

from being the wife of a popular president" from "I don't think I'm the only woman here who has felt that sometimes you have to work a little harder because your a woman?"

[Clarkie1]

62. Good point.

But I felt strongly when I saw and heard it there was the implication when she spoke to the crowd she was implying she had to work harder to be the frontrunner than everyone else.

[hlthe2b]

46. So, it appears that for some, a Woman's accomplishments...

are HER OWN only if she is Lifetime SINGLE and ORPHANED--or at least not the child of anyone who ever accomplished ANYTHING....

This is what I am taking from Clarkie1 and the few posters who are agreeing with him? :shrug:



Misogyny is not a liberal/progressive/Democratic value. I can only hope that many will take the time necessary to examine and re-examine their views towards women, regardless of how they may personally feel about HRC.....

[donsu]

50. left you cold? you'd better warm up to the facts of life for women, even

rich or well connected women.

men have created more ceilings then the glass and marble ones.

women absolutely have to work harder and even then many are still held down or thwarted by men.

[beaconess]

53. Why aren't you castigating Clark for "riding Clinton's coattails?"

Let's see . . . "Clark hasn't had to work harder . . . he's had it easier riding Clinton's coattails." After all, Clark certainly wouldn't be a viable presidential candidate had he not been NATO Supreme Allied Commander - a job he owes to Bill Clinton.

[Clarkie1]

55. That's a good point.

But I don't see it in the same light as a father/son or husband/wife dynasty.

[beaconess]

65. How do you equate Bush I/BushII dynasty with Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton

There's an enormous difference between the two situations.

W achieved the presidency purely because he was the son of Bush I. He played no important role in his father's presidency, had no accomplishments of his own, had made no mark on anything (except, maybe an alley wall from time to time).

Hillary, on the other hand, is being considered for the presidency, not because she was married to Bill Clinton, but because of what she has accomplished prior to and during her marriage to Bill Clinton. Big difference.

Bush's success is purely the result of his birth certificate. Hillary Clinton's success is not based upon her marriage certificate.

[Clarkie1]

66. Uh...I don't agree with you entirely there.

They both have more in common in regards to benefiting from the father or the husband than you acknowledge.

[xultar]

57. ZING!!! BANG!!!! BOOM!!!!

[earthlover]

60. I really don't know....

If Hillary was NOT a woman....and a MAN ran for the Democratic nomination on the record of voting FOR the IWR, triangulating on almost every issue ran, would he be taken as seriously as Hillary?

Hillary is NOT taken seriously because of any particular issues she has promoted. She is the darling of the media, because she has name recognition she is doing well in the early polls, and because she is connected with the party establishment she has other advantages.

I acknowledge that Hillary had quite a record of accomplishment prior to Bill's election to the White House. However, it is NOT more difficult for Hillary to run for President than it is for anyone else, and she has a lot of advantages of name recognition, money, status within the establishment and press coverage that the other candidates could never expect to rival. Additionally, there are a LOT of folks out there who would love to see a woman president and would vote for Hillary BECAUSE she is a woman, and ignore her stands on the Iraq War and her record of triangulations. Yes, there are others who would vote against her because she is a woman, but in terms of getting the Democratic nomination her sex is not a disadvantage because most Democrats would love to see a woman President and most of the anti-women folk are Republicans.

In any case, most of her opponents would gladly trade places with her with regard to how easy or difficult it would be to get the nomination. She goes into the race holding almost every card.

[PresidentObama]

61. What a stupid statement, Hillary.

Stop worrying about and pointing out you're a woman, we understand. And we'd all like to see a female President! But stop this nonsense now. I don't give two shits about your gender, I want to hear more about your stances, views, and positions. Lets move past this gender issue!

And trust me you'll have to work harder in 2008, but thats only because you have been hiding behind media hype, national polls a year out, and the Clinton name. You'll find in Iowa you're in 4th place, and you have ground to make up. So please, show us how hard you work :)

It'd probably make me more comfortable about you IF (doubt you will) you get the nomination to see you work hard to be the nominee. Oh, and tell your henchmen Carville and McAuliffe to stop the B.S.

[Clarkie1]

63. You expressed my feelings quite well.

I think I should have put the poll into more context, or approached what I was trying to say differently.

[beaconess]

67. Excuse me? Being a woman informs Hillary's experience - just as being a general

is an important part of Clark's formation as a political candidate. Or being the son of a millworker and a successful lawyer is part of Edwards' political DNA, etc.

Telling Hillary she shouldn't ever mention her gender is, at best, a rather bizarre admonition.

[Captain Hilts]

76. Well said. Being female, a general, Hispanic, etc. is part of who they are. nt

[justiceischeap]

68. The fact that we're even having this discussion

Shows that her mentioning that being a woman means you have to work harder to get anywhere in life is a valid one.

I find it fascinating that no one is asking this question:

"Would Bill Clinton be where he is today if it weren't for Hillary?"

It was touched on but the exact question isn't asked. That in itself says that women have to work harder just to be acknowledged for their roles in relationships and what they do outside those relationships. I'm not a boomer woman and I know that I still have the disadvantage in this country because I have an "inney" and not an "outey."

[beaconess]

73. Exactly!

[Generator]

70. Ah great irony

You show that she DOES have to work harder by the fact that you are peeved at her comment. Women get picked apart (ESPECIALLY) by other women for everything they say and do in a way that men don't. I know that's a broad statement. (no pun intended there-ha!) But I'm glad she's not my candidate. It is tough-but I think saying this hurts her. So it proves it is harder for a woman! Though, I also agree that you cannot separate where she is in life now from who she married. It's impossible to ever know how far she would be if she hadn't married a president.

[IndianaGreen]

71. Did Hillary get hired by Rose Law firm because of her qualifications or

because her husband was governor? Hmmm...

Did Hillary get elected to US Senate because of her charisma or because of her married name? Hmmm...

Is Hillary going to exploit her relationship with Big Dog in order to get people to vote for her? Hmmm...

:think:

[hlthe2b]

72. I am not a supporter of HRC because of her views

which also goes for most of the conservative or DLC candidates...

But, if I am correctly interpreting your questions as reflective of your views, IG, I must say I'm unpleasantly surprised...

How can fellow progressives (especially women) NOT give HRC her due? She clearly HAS worked very hard for her success. To deny this, seems to be to be on a level of suggesting all accomplished minorities gained success only as a result of affirmative action.. !

She's not my candidate, but I certainly will NOT deny her accomplishments by suggesting she gained same only as a result of her husband.. Gads, are we all still mired in 1950s thinking?~!

[IndianaGreen]

77. What Hillary "successes"? She's got none!

She fucked up on health care by all accounts. She showed a lack of judgment on PATRIOT, Iraq, and torture. On the very day that Baker-Hamilton reported to Congress, Hillary chose to appear with Joe Lieberman to talk about violent video games. On the same day that Biden held hearings on Bush's troop surge, Hillary chose to go to Iraq for a photo op with Maliki, and to give herself cover for a slight shift in the position on the war.

I have been around the track a few times and I have changed careers a couple of three times, and I have seen women attain leadership positions or make significant contributions to the organization's mission solely on the strength of their hard work and dedication, not because of who they were married or related to. Hillary is disgusting when she tries to equate herself to such women!

[hlthe2b]

80. Excuse me... DId you READ my post?

I am discussing her career success--not her political issues and views-- which I very very very clearly stated are in opposition to my own views. You may argue she is not a successful NY Senator becuase of those viewpoints--no disagreement here. But, that is not what is being manifest by the OP and the poll.

I do not support her and to put it mildly, I am sorely disappointed in her stances. Yet, I can separate my personal feelings for her and still give her her due. That seems to be more difficult for some...:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

84. Unfortunately, Hillary is not running for President of the Rotary Club

but for President of the United States, therefore her entire resume is under scrutiny, particularly when it comes to her political track record and views. What some fail to see is that Hillary wants for us to cut her some slack because she is a woman. I will bet you that during the debates Team Hillary will accuse those who take Hillary head on of not being friendly to women for being so mean to Hillary (does this remind you of how Gore was told he was mean to Bush?).

Team Hillary is using Rove's playbook for Bush's 2000 primary campaign.

[beaconess]

75. You seem stuck - let me help you.

Did Hillary get hired by Rose Law firm because of her qualifications or because her husband was governor? The former. Hillary Rodham was one of the most respected and sought after lawyers in the country. The Rose Law Firm was lucky to get her.

Did Hillary get elected to US Senate because of her charisma or because of her married name? Considering Hillary Clinton had the same name throughout her Senate campaign and everyone in New York knew her to be Bill Clinton's wife long before she announced her candidacy, the fact that she went from low-standing in the polls to winning by a wide margin makes it obvious that it was not her name that got her elected. She won the Senate the old-fashioned way: she campaigned her ass off and convinced voters that she would represent them well in the Senate. And obviously, they weren't disappointed since they returned her to office in a landslide. Unless you think that New York voters are stupid sheep, you can't possibly believe that they voted for Hillary based on either charisma OR her married name.

Is Hillary going to exploit her relationship with Big Dog in order to get people to vote for her? How does one "exploit" the fact that they're married to someone? Please be specific on how exactly you think Hillary is going to "exploit" her marriage to Bill Clinton and how that differs from how any other candidate uses their own marriages and spouses in their campaign.

Now, here are a few questions:

Could Bill Clinton become governor of Arkasas without the assistance, knowledge, support and outstanding professional and personal reputation of his wife? No.

Could Bill Clinton have become president of the United States without the assistance, knowledge, support and outstanding professional and personal reputation of his wife? No.

And, FYI - You don't have to like Hillary, but trying to convince anyone that she got where she is because she's Bill's Little woman is not only an insult to her, it's an insult to all women, who, unfortunately, despite gains, have to put up with that kind of crap every day.

[Captain Hilts]

78. B-I-N-G-O. She's not my top choice, but you nailed it here. nt

[IndianaGreen]

79. Why doesn't Hillary run as a Rodham then?

Or even as a Rodham-Clinton as she once wanted to be known? The reason she is now clinging to the Clinton name is because she wants to benefit from the goodwill and nostalgia her husband's former Administration generates in many people.

Hillary is just playing a lot of you for suckers!

[hlthe2b]

82. Because she IS a Clinton and she DID contribute to both the

successes (and failures)of WJC's two terms in office...She clearly was anything BUT a largely passive presence a la Laura Bush*.

NO one expects a male candidate to divy up their own individual successes from those enabled by their successful spouse or family. Why do we hold HRC (and other women) to that standard?

[beaconess]

85. You are so right

It's pretty common knowledge in the military that officers wives make tremendous sacrifices that enable their husbands to move up the ladder. But I doubt the OP or any like-minded people would insist that Clark is riding his wife's coattails or exploiting her in some way by using his status as a general as a claim to fame justifying his political career.

This entire thread is Exhibit A of the point that Hillary was making.

[beaconess]

83. You're getting more and more ridiculous

You obviously hate Hillary and your venom is clouding your reasoning.

But your argument is interesting in that it perfectly demonstrates exactly the point that Hillary was making. Women have to put up with all manner of sexist crap that men don't. Case in point - only women are attacked because of the name they choose to use.

FYI - until the early 90s, Hillary DID go by Hillary Rodham. She only added the Clinton when she was attacked mercilessly by people who said that her refusal to adopt her husband's name was hurting him politically. She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

So, despite the bizarre foolishness of your post, you helped to make an important point.

[IndianaGreen]

86. Howard Dean's wife did not change her name for political expediency, like Hillary

Judith Steinberg is a better role model for women than the triangulating Hillary can ever be!

Heck, Hillary did not shift on Iraq until the polls showed that over 60-percent of the public wanted a change in course.

[beaconess]

87. She uses "Judith Steinberg Dean" in all areas, except in their joint practice

in order to keep patients from being confused about which Dr. Dean they were asking for.

You know, professional expediency.

If you're going to frag other people into your inane arguments, at least try to get your facts straight.

[IndianaGreen]

97. We just happen to differ in our opinions about Hillary, that's all.

I want for you to realize that the source for much of the anger and bitterness directed at Hillary is because many of us believe that she could have made a difference on Iraq, but she chose to play it safe instead.

This is like having two children, one very gifted and the other very challenged. One would be harsher on the gifted child that wasted his/her talents away than on the challenged child that tries to do as best as his/her abilities take him or her.

Hillary is like that gifted child that could have given so much, but gave so little!

I think that Hillary will disappoint us as President. At a time when we need to reverse course, we will find that a President Hillary will only make a modest course correction. While she, or for that matter any other Democrat, would be a gigantic improvement over the delusional madman we have in the White House today, we could do better with someone other than Hillary.

[mitchtv]

88. 74% +4%

Guess you are against the current today Clarkie1. I'm not a Hillary supporter

[dsc]

91. Shame on you

For all the talk of Clinton coattails, lets take a look at early lives.

Here is Hillary's

As a child, Hillary was involved in many activities at church and at a public school in Park Ridge. Rodham was fond of sports including tennis, ice skating, ballet, swimming, volleyball, and softball. She earned many awards as a Brownie and Girl Scout.<1> Prior to graduating from Maine South High School, she attended Maine East High School, where she served as class president, a member of the student council, a member of the debating team, and as a member of the National Honor Society. During her last year of high school, she received the school's first social science award. Raised in a politically conservative Republican family<2>, in 1964 (at age 16) Hillary Rodham campaigned for Republican presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.<3> Her parents encouraged her to pursue the career of her choice.<3>

In 1965, Rodham enrolled at Wellesley College where she became active in politics, serving as president of the Wellesley College Chapter of the College Republicans. During her junior year in 1968, Rodham was affected by the death of civil rights leader Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., whom she had met in person in 1962.<1> After attending the "Wellesley in Washington" program at the urging of Professor Alan Schechter, her political views became more in tune with American liberalism and she joined the Democratic Party. Named valedictorian of her graduating class at Wellesley, Rodham graduated in 1969 with departmental honors in Political Science. She became the first student in Wellesley College history to deliver their commencement address.<4> The Associated Press reported at the time that her speech received a standing ovation lasting seven minutes.<5> She was featured in an article published in Life magazine because of the response to her speech, which was controversial in that it criticized Republican Senator Edward W. Brooke, who had spoken before her.<1>

In 1969, Rodham entered Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of Yale Review of Law and Social Action and worked with underprivileged children at the Yale-New Haven Hospital. During the summer of 1970, she was awarded a grant to work at the Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge, Massachusetts. During the late spring of 1971, she began dating Bill Clinton, also a Yale Law School student. During the summer of 1971, she traveled to Washington to work on Senator Walter Mondale's subcommittee on migrant workers, researching migrant problems in housing, sanitation, health and education. For the summer of 1972, Rodham worked in the western states for Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern's campaign. During her second year in law school, she volunteered at the Yale Child Study Center, learning about new research on early childhood brain development. She also took on cases of child abuse at Yale-New Haven Hospital and worked at the city Legal Services, providing free legal service to the poor. She received a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree from Yale in 1973, having written a thesis on the rights of children,<1> and began a year of post-graduate study on children and medicine at the Yale Child Study Center.

end of quote

Here is Bill's

William Jefferson Clinton was born William Jefferson Blythe III in Hope, Arkansas, United States, and raised in Hot Springs, Arkansas. His father was William Jefferson Blythe, Jr., a traveling salesman, who died in a car accident three months prior to the birth of his son.<1> In 1950 his mother, Virginia Dell Cassidy (1923–1994), remarried Roger Clinton, a partner in an automobile dealership.

It was not until Billy (as he was known then) was 14 that he formally adopted his stepfather's surname of Clinton, although he assumed use of Clinton prior to that. Clinton claims his stepfather was a gambler and an alcoholic who regularly abused his mother and, at times, his half-brother, Roger, Jr.

Clinton attended St. John's Catholic School, Ramble Elementary School, and Hot Springs High School where he was an active student leader and avid reader and musician.<2> He was in the chorus and played the saxophone, winning first chair in the state band's saxophone section. He briefly considered dedicating his life to music, but as he noted in his autobiography My Life:

“ (…) Sometime in my sixteenth year I decided I wanted to be in public life as an elected official. I loved music and thought I could be very good, but I knew I would never be John Coltrane or Stan Getz. I was interested in medicine and thought I could be a fine doctor, but I knew I would never be Michael DeBakey. But I knew I could be great in public service.<3> ”

Two influential moments in Clinton's early life contributing to his decision to become a public figure took place in 1963. One was his visit to the White House to meet President John F. Kennedy as a Boys Nation Senator. The other was listening to Martin Luther King's 1963 I Have a Dream speech which he memorized.<4>

Clinton was also a member of Youth Order of DeMolay (but never actually became a Freemason).<5> He is a member of Kappa Kappa Psi National Honorary Band Fraternity, Inc.

Attending with scholarships, Clinton received a Bachelor of Science in Foreign Service (B.S.F.S.) degree in 1968 from the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University in Washington D.C., where he interned for Arkansas Senator J. William Fulbright. While in college he became a brother of Alpha Phi Omega and was elected to Phi Beta Kappa. Upon graduation he won a Rhodes Scholarship to University College, Oxford where he studied government. He developed an interest in rugby, playing at Oxford and later for the Little Rock Rugby club in Arkansas. While at Oxford he also participated in Vietnam War protests, including organizing an October 1969 Moratorium event.

After Oxford, Clinton attended Yale Law School and obtained a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree in 1973. While at Yale, he began dating law student Hillary Rodham who was a year ahead of him. They married in 1975 and their only child, Chelsea, was born in 1980.

end of quote both courtesy of Wikipedia

Note that Hillary was valedictorian at Wellesley, Clinton wasn't even Cum Laude at Georgetown. Hillary editted the Law Review at Yale, Clinton didn't. Before Hillary even met Bill she was a very accomplished young woman who had graced the cover of Life and stood up to a sitting Senator infront of her whole school. Shame, shame a thousand times shame for trying to turn her into some creature of her husband.

[crispini]

93. It's pretty "out there" for somebody's first-ever elected office to be Senator.

I would venture to say that 90% of people who are elected Senator first run for local or state office.

The fact that she didn't have to do this says to me that yes, she is leaning somewhat on her name recognition, which is due to Bill.

She may very well have had to work hard, run a good campaign, etc., and there is no doubt that she is intelligent, and had a successful early career on her own, but the fact that their careers are intertwined and they are leveraging off of each other doesn't sit particularly well with me when I think about the fact that she may be the first woman in the White House. Honestly, what it says to me is that as women, we CAN'T make it on our own. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[dsc]

94. Senator Webb, Senator Frist

Senator Moynahan, Senator Bobby Kennedy, Senator Teddy Kennedy, Senator Biden, all of these, and I am sure many others, have run for Senate as first elective office. Oh Senator John Glenn and Senator Howard Metzenbalm also did that. Don't forget Senator Paul Wellstone.

[beaconess]

101. John Edwards n/t

[dsc]

103. yeah forgot about that one

[beaconess]

105. You sound like those who insist that Affirmative Action stigmatizes black people

As a woman, I'm not the least bit concerned that some people might think that because Hillary Clinton's husband is Bill Clinton, that she couldn't have "made it on her own."

First of all, she HAS made it on her own.

But just as important, people who make those kinds of assumptions about women - just like those who make those kinds of negative assumptions about the qualifications of successful blacks - are going to assume the worst, no matter what. I'm not going to undercut other women or get into a "my struggle was harder than yours so don't you dare mention yours" spitting match with my sisters. Men aren't expected to and don't play those kinds of games. I have yet to run into one single white man who feels his accomplishments are in any way diminished or looked at askance because unqualified white male dolts like George W. Bush get special treatment. But for some reason, people demand that women beat themselves down with collective guilt for this stupid reasons.

I'm not falling into that trap and I urge my fellow Democrats not to, either.

[AtomicKitten]

96. It's a given a woman has to work harder than a man.

Remove the volatile subject matter and you will find most agree with that statement.

[zulchzulu]

99. To quote the dearly recently departed James Brown:

It's a Man's World

This is a man's world, this is a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

You see, man made the cars to take us over the road
Man made the trains to carry heavy loads
Man made electric light to take us out of the dark
Man made the boat for the water, like Noah made the ark

This is a man's, a man's, a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

Man thinks about a little baby girls and a baby boys
Man makes then happy 'cause man makes them toys
And after man has made everything, everything he can
You know that man makes money to buy from other man

This is a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

He's lost in the wilderness
He's lost in bitterness

[AtomicKitten]

100. hey

I like your Obama sig.

Gobama!

[Allyoop]

98. Repent!

Clarkie 1 - I'm a Clarkie too and no fan of Hillary's, but judging from the last sentence in your post "I would not have found it to be(very disingenuous) coming from other women who have had to work harder to get where they are".

Your statement simply shows unfair bias toward Hillary and you might as well admit it.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

106. Hillary Clinton worked hard to get to a certain level

but by being Mrs. Bill Clinton, she reached a whole new level of what is consider successful.

[MaryBear]

108. And he

by being her husband.

[AZBlue]

107. I hate making assumptions, but I would be lots of money you're male.

That's the only way to explain your comments.