How much can Dems really ask for sacrifice regarding global warming?

[fujiyama]

OK, we've been reading a lot of threads about Edwards' new home in NC. Personally, it doesn't make a difference to me, but it does muddle and weaken his message.

Then again, at the same time is it possible for any of our candidates to ask for sacrifice? The rich don't have the same worries as middle class Americans. This doesn't make them bad or even completely out of touch - after all, most even voted against tax cuts that would have benefited them directly - that's more sacrifice than many would be willing to make.

But Americans are not likely to switch to hybrids and buy new bulbs, as long as they are more expensive (though of course both will possibly save you money in the long run). While global warming is a threat (and a much shorter term one than most would think), it's also not an immediate problem in many people's minds. People have started purchasing fewer SUVs for the simple reason that gas prices went up, not to make an environmental statement.

This is going to be a tough sell to many. Our lifestyle is very consumerist. I also don't think it's sustainable for too long. But how do you have rich people living a very comfortable lifestyle asking for average people to make a sacrifice?

[derby378]

1. Hey, I'm not rich, but I'm reaching for the fluorescents...

I'd like to replace all the bulbs in our home with fluorescents, one by one, so we can watch our energy bill and our CO2 levels drop. It's not that hard to do. Really.

[Fovea]

2. The important thing to remember

is how the cost is applied. Florescents save money over their lifespan particularly in areas with noisy power.

When gas settles around $3.50 gal, that hybrid sticker price will look less damaging than gassing up the escalade.

We don't in the long term need to ask consumers to change how they consume, the environment and climate will do that. But we can offer solutions that use less and still live with the conveniences. We havent even scratched the surface of what efficiency is possible.

[Jim Sagle]

3. Don't frame it as sacrifice.

Frame it as survival.

Frame it as new industries, kewl new tech, well-paying new jobs and a new stock market boom.

Frame it as refurbing infrastructure.

Frame it as a better world for the children and grand-children.

Frame it as a way out the cycle of Mideast wars.

So many ways to frame it, all of them true and all of them positive.

[roguevalley]

17. absolutely, jim sagle. it is survival. we could lose it if we pitty pat

around.

[katsy]

4. Would you believe this article...

Consumerism is our worst enemy.

http://www.energybulletin.net/2876.html

"Published on 27 Oct 2004 by The Christian Science Monitor. Archived on 27 Oct 2004.
US: Snazzier houses bring energy crisis home to middle class
by Ron Scherer

RELATED NEWS:

Solutions & sustainability - Jan 23...

The peak oil crisis: the Council of Governments...

Solutions & sustainability - Jan 22...

U.S.: ethanol - Jan 15...

Twenty in ten: strengthening America's energy security...

NEW YORK - In Ossining, N.Y., a "For Sale" sign hangs on a seven-bedroom home with six fireplaces, an indoor pool with a waterfall, and a steam room. In Wayland, Mass., a 6,500-square-foot home on the market features a master suite with two baths. And in Washington Township, N.J., a five-bedroom, seven-bath home includes a 150-gallon fish tank and a game room with its own hot tub.

These examples may be extreme, but they're indicative of the "SUVing," as some people call it, of the American home. And they show one reason why utility bills, even before the first inflated one this winter, are going up.

The old homestead - and not just the kind with seven baths - is increasingly filled with multiple refrigerators, plasma TV sets, and lap pools. The result is that this year's energy woes, more than ever, are hitting the American middle class and upper middle class as well as the poor.

"I recently toured a $1.2 million home which had a $28,000 high-definition television that uses as much electricity as the furnace does," says Neal Elliott, industrial program director of the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy (ACEEE)."

[nam78_two]

5. Its going to be a long and hard struggle

But, I think that it will have to be pushed as the survival issue that it is. One of the worst things that Bush has rather successfully done (I guess the Republican "revolution" really) is devalue science.

I was talking to a climate scientist who was giving a talk at my u. the other day and she said that if we waited for as much "proof" before say certifying a pharmaceutical product for its efficacy, as we have waited on "proof" for the ties between global warming and human activity, we would never have any medicines on the market :-/....


I have no answers really to your question, but my fear is that it will take some major environmental calamities before we do anything about it :-|....Great question though fujiyama-K&R.

[noamnety]

6. Unless they are sacrificing

no, they can't realistically ask us to sacrifice and expect us to listen, if they aren't walking the walk.

All the donations I make - they are ALWAYS to organizations that don't have millionaire celebrities asking me to cough up money. I refuse, on principle. So organizations like the IVAW or smaller relief camps get my checks, because frankly it pisses me off when someone with a freaking mansion is asking me, a school teacher (and one who is laid off half the time) to sacrifice anything. I generally want to slap them, and tell them when they get down to my income and asset level, then they are allowed to ask me for money. Otherwise, STFU - if I can see you're building a private pool while trying to talk me into donating money I was going to use for a membership at the Y, I am NOT impressed.

It's great that they donate in large amounts - but honestly, they aren't sacrificing shit if they are still scratching at the surface of the money that's left over after they count their disposable income.

Sorry if that's too blunt for anyone's taste here.

Here's what I found out about consumer choice when I was running a lunch program at a high school. If you sell crap, the majority of people will buy it and walk past the healthy stuff. If you refuse to sell junk food and corporate processed garbage, people will eat salad and lentil soup. And they'll find out they like it.

If you sell cheaper lightbulbs instead of flourescents, people will buy them. You'd have to pull them off the market if you need people to stop buying them. It's been done before, we did it with freon. So ... why aren't we doing it now?

[bling bling]

10. I completely understand.

After our bills are paid each month the rest of the money goes to groceries and household things like Windex, toilet paper, etc.

When I donate money somewhere it's *literally* money that would have been used to buy an extra pair of pajamas for my kid or an extra toy for her for Christmas.

During the last DU fundraiser it took me 2-3 days to part with my pathetic little piddly donation because the money I donated here was money that I wouldn't be able to use on something else that I really wanted to get for my kid. But even still I know that compared to the vast majority of people in the world, I've got it good.

Still though, when I donate, it is literally a sacrifice. When I start working again that won't be the case so much and when that happens I'll donate even more money to helping people it's something that I very much believe in and it's important to me.

And I agree with you. I don't like having multi-multi millionaires asking me to sacrifice my money for this or that. Those people don't have to choose between getting the big box of Tide this week or the small box and donating $10.00 to a charity. They don't have any CLUE anymore what it feels like to have to resort to giving money away that would otherwise have been used for a day-to-day living expense.

[fujiyama]

12. You make some good points

The recent debate over Edwards' home, has IMO actually set off some very important debates regarding consumerism, energy consumption, and environmental impact. It's unfortunate some of the criticism has been set off by partisans of other candidates, resulting in flame wars.

I think it's great to get people involved in an effort to become more energy efficient, but I have to agree with many that the Edwards really are sending mixed messages - and their schitch of eating at Wendy's and shopping at Target is not selling. After all, if I had that much money, I'd spend more and buy locally produced organic food, etc. not shop at some big box retailer. Hell, when you have that kind of money, you can make sure that the products you buy are not produced by those in slave-labor conditions in China or Bangladesh. With the exceptions of electronics, there is still some stuff produced here - if you are willing to pay for it, and can find it.

Edwards isn't a bad guy. I think he sincerely wants to help the poor. And I don't think anyone of us expects him not to live a comfortable lifestyle with the wealth he has honestly earned. I also admire him urging volunteers for efforts in rebuilding New Orleans, etc. But asking for sacrifice just rings hollow when rich people ask for it, when they are doing so little themselves.

[RegimeChange2008]

7. As I understand it, the worst environmental offense of Edwards' house

Wasn't even the size of the house itself, but the fact that he clearcut some 50,000 trees in order to build it. Trees "eat" carbon dioxide and convert it to oxygen, so in that respect, Edwards definitely acted irresponsibly in environmental terms. Surely there must have been some piece of property in the state of North Carolina which wouldn't have required raping the land to that extent just to build a house.

[KingofNewOrleans]

11. 50,000?

uh, no.

[fujiyama]

13. It's obvious some trees were cut down

but 50,000 seems like an exaggeration.

Do you have a link for that? I've seen it used before and I remain skeptical.

[katsy]

18. Avg. tree density of a forest is 480/acre.

http://www.coloradotrees.org/benefits.htm

There are 43,500 sq. feet in an acre.

50K downed trees seems way overstated.

:freak:

[roguevalley]

16. that's not good. someone better ask for a lot, soon. the rivers are

melting in alaska in January. unbelievable. I shoved snow off my roof and off my porches because its supposed to rain. in alaska. in january.

[alittlelark]

20. If it were TRUE it would not be good... see below

[alittlelark]

19. Uh, Where did you hear this?

I saw the photos... unless dandelions and individual stalks of grass are now 'trees' I cannot see anything even close to 1/10th of that #.

[badgerpup]

8. I read this and came up with Foie Gras in my free-associative mind...

Stay with me here, it makes sense.

Pate de foie gras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_Gras

We're practically force-fed the culture of consumerism.
BUY! GET! OWN! POSSESS! ACQUIRE!
Uh-oh, somebody's cooler than you! Better buy something to even the score! We must keep our economy 'booming'!

The end result is not a happy one for the birds...:yoiks:
and I think we're starting to get the picture as well. :scared:

[lonestarnot]

9. Well tough sell or no tough sell, they better be asking alot as our very lives are depending upon it

[fujiyama]

15. How can they ask

when they sacrifice so little?

I mean c'mon, is it really a sacrifice for the Edwards to buy a Hybrid Escape, over some other monstrosity? Or buying CFLs over normal bulbs? Doesn't them asking for a sacrifice from people making a fraction of their income ring hollow?

I'm thinking that the only thing that really will force changes in society are market factors. People won't cut down consumption until it starts costing too much.

[lonestarnot]

21. Well they also need to walk the talk.

I've seen the posts re Edward's new house and I am intrigued with his mistake.

[freethought]

14. Some change will have to be "forced".

I don't mean "forced" in terms of forcing someone to buy a Prius at gunpoint. What I do mean is that, certain changes should be made which pushes people to make some changes/sacrifices. For example, a phase out of the incandescent lightbulb in, say, 5 years. Do that and people will have to buy compact fluorescents or LED types should they ever be available. If GE or Westinghouse object. Well, that's just tough.
CAFE standards, every vehicle SOLD in the U.S. will have to meet a standard of mpg. I think a package of tax credits, insurance, excise tax, registration fees, and other financial incentives should be legislated to encourage people to purchase vehicles that meet a certain MPG standard. If the vehicles purchased do not meet the standard, then no incentives are given/received.
I could list other ideas but I think that is a good start.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

22. A recent article says that our lifestyle is going to change drastically

It will be relatively soon and the only question is whether we are proactive in handling it or reactive.

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, world oil production peaked in December 2005 at just over 85 million barrels a day.

This is from an article in Orion Magazine. Click here for the article.

I think they are somewhat pessimistic, but I agree with the premise that the cheap oil economy will end soon because we are running out of oil.

[twiceshy]

23. The past as a way forward.

Be gentle as this is my first post. I live in a nice old neighborhood in Springfield MA, a bit tarnished, in a beaten down ex-industrial city. The neighborhood is built around a large park of 700+ acres and the average lot size of even the largest Victorian style houses is less than a third of an acre. Sidewalks, city sewer and water, and close to all kinds of cultural and entertainment options. Of course the city and my neighborhood are disparaged by the hypocrites in their 2 acre suburban lots in the surrounding towns. "Oh the crime", they intone. But, really neighborhoods like this had a very low energy footprint. I don't see why more people don't build this way because the park is so much more useful that 2 acres of woods and imagine how much we would save with energy efficient buildings instead of my drafty old house.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

24. Welcome to DU!

Welcome!:pals:

If these changes that the article talks about come to pass, our farmers will be visiting the Amish to learn the modern methods of farming and people like you will be very happy they live in a neighborhood with stores in walking distance.

I suspect houses in your area will appreciate as the price of gas goes up and suburban commuting becomes too expensive for anybody except the very wealthy.

Just one other comment - in future posts, I would add some breaks, because white space makes for easier reading. And again, welcome to DU!

[newyawker99]

26. Hi twiceshy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[leftofthedial]

25. if the sacrifice doesn't begin with people like Edwards

then we are sunk.

Saving our species at this point is probably not possible, but the only chance we have requires immediate, life-changing, culture-changing sacrifices from all of us.