Do people really believe that "bipartisanship" is the more effective

[T Wolf]

strategy at this point in time?

I would assert that the Bushistas will be even more negative and resort to even more despicable tactics now that they are not in total control of Congress.

Throw in the fact that they still control the media, and hence, the ability to keep their message as the main one that most Americans will hear. They will continue to duck all responsibility. They will be able to say that the "Democrat party" is now to blame for all ills.

And in their effort to appear conciliatory, Democrats will not fight back. They will water down any legislative efforts in order to try and achieve some puke support (and political cover).

My belief is that Democrats will be damned by the pukes and their media mouthpieces no matter what they do. So why not try and actually accomplish something instead of playing nice with the enemy?

The actions and words that have come from the wing-nuts since the election only support the view that the party of bush* feels unshackled by the onus of majority status. It is only going to get uglier.

So again, why not fight fire with fire? Why not push a true progressive agenda?

[endarkenment]

1. I don't. It is idiocy and it is Democratic Chronic Nice Disease.

DCND is the hidden killer of opposition parties. The party in power has demonstrated a willingness to kick us in the balls, knock us to the ground, and then stomp our teeth out. Which part of 'they are not playing nice' do we not get?

[blm]

2. How did it work out for Clinton when he showed EXTRAORDINARY kindness to Bush1

and refused to pursue all the outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, and BCCI when he took office in 93? How did that kindness work out for the Democratic party? For Gore? For 9-11 families? For Iraq?

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[AtomicKitten]

4. or for Kerry

who made overtures to McCain to run as his VP?

[mtnsnake]

6. Ouch!

:rofl:

[blm]

9. You must be awfully fragile to think there was any pain to that reply.

Try having a discussion with the 9-11 families about how it is OK with you that IranContra and BCCI were matters too unimportant to be pursued by Bill Clinton when he took office, and too unimportant to be even discussed in his book.

Matters like THESE - that if dealt with properly and ethically and Constitutionally, would have prevented the growth of global terrorism and events like 9-11.


There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al- Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British
investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including
the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich
remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political
figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.

[Tellurian]

22. Where is the denial of your debunked cut and paste?

Heres what I see-

The implausibility of sheer conjecture rising to the level of empirical evidence necessary for prosecution/conviction per John Kerry-

Allegations based on inconclusive evidence:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al- Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and Britishinvestigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.


The words in context highlighted in bold clearly demonstrate the allegations contained in blm's post lend themselves to mere speculation in the hypothetical. I've only exhibited the first 8 statements because the rest of her cut and paste is ostensibly prolific redundancy in the hypothetical throughout, and a waste of the reader's time.

The allegations provided after a 7 yr investigation by Sen Kerry, are seriously lacking in the due diligence of fact finding supported by
HARD EVIDENCE based in fact necessary to qualify for a preliminary investigation to be successful.


Especially noting the final recommendation of the report itself:

"There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.'

Essentially, you say, Kerry purportedly handed Clinton a loaded gun and said 'go getem'!

Eventually, what the reader does quantify is..what Kerry says and what he means, are two different things.. Yes, he handed President Clinton a hypothetical connection of dots scantily clad in facts, noting every allegation is lacking in conclusive evidence. The real travesty is, Sen Kerry handed Clinton an empty gun and said 'go getem'...involving our Foreign Relations and banking systems in 12 countries quite possibly causing a world economic collapse.

This entire cut and paste isn't worth the paper it's written on and if I may say so myself, nothing more than an attempted dupe on the posters reading here, thinking blm has anything near a 'smoking gun' in her arsenal of smears against the Clintons...

your smears are truly unconsionable...I'm sure you'll save yourself, before you send everyone else over the cliff!


.

[blm]

30. DUH! That is the list of OUTSTANDING QUESTIONS needing answers through document ACCESS

that a PRESIDENT could FACILITATE.

That wasn't the whole report - my undergod, how absurd can one get? Those were the questions that REMAINED that NEEDED access to documents and further investigation.

The report is in the congressional record, so you can easily find it there if you want to go through it and tell us how wrong Kerry was about BCCI. heheh....of COURSE he was 'just speculating' and none of it is really true ....heheh....of course...because Clinton would have moved heaven and earth to bring it all out......right?


Geez......the kneejerk reaction to fight everything is ridiculous.

[Tellurian]

36. No, not ridiculous..

Why don't you provide the Congressional Report?

From the allegations, there doesn't seem very much evidence if any for them to go on, to even warrant an investigation. And it seems Kerry himself after 7 long years of investigating couldn't produce any concrete evidence anymore than the mere speculation you've provided. And if McCain had involvement with the Keating Five, why would Kerry consider him clean enough for consideration as a VP running mate?

My question is, why would you continue to post unsubstantiated speculation that has never been through a Trial, proving or disproving those allegations as substantive enough to bear up under cross examination during the process of a court trial?

I mean, what is your motive? Are you so desperate to smear the Clintons you would do anything to forestall Hillary's chances for the nomination? Is that what this is all about? A direct or indirect smear is as meaningful to you in your world, rather than bringing concrete evidence in hand to discredit someone from a presidential bid?

Is this what we have to look forward to, from you, for the next year and a half? Baseless nonsense that you suppose will pass for a Truth because you say so? It's Three times now, it's been proven you will lie for the sake of convenience.

I think you underestimate, the majority of posters here have good comprehensive reading skills, and are beginning to understand your obsession with slinging mud at the Clintons for no good reason, other than your own personal agenda.

Hold on tightly, Let go lightly..

[blm]

38. That's absurd - Kerry got the bank CLOSED down. You really haven't a clue what happened

do you?

[mtnsnake]

23. I still can't believe how Kerry wanted McCain, part of the Keating Five, for his VP

Ironic how you've got the despicable Keating mentioned in your number 8 point above....and to think that McCain, who was one of the Keating Five, is the man Kerry courted to be his Vice Presidential choice in 2004. Thank god McCain shunned Kerry's overtures to be his VP. It would've been sooooo embarrassing if it actually materialized with an official offer. No wonder John Edwards has no love lost for Kerry, considering he was playing the backup role to John McCain. Yikes.

[PresidentObama]

27. Gore also choose Lieberman.

Minus a few, we don't fault him. We didn't know he'd get down on his hands and knees and kiss Bushie's ass.

McCain has gotten more and more RW these past few years. Kerry was good friends with McCain in 04', and then he stabbed him in the back. Plus I remember something about denial that Kerry ever offered McCain the VP slot.

[mtnsnake]

31. Yes. Gore chose a Democrat. Lieberman was a Democrat, so what's your point?

[blm]

29. Ironic you find THAT notable but wouldn't want Clinton to pursue the crimes that

led this country straight to 9-11 and this Iraq war.

Your priorities are WHACKED.

I would love to see you all with a group of 9-11 families while you are explaining how you came to the conclusion that a RW rumor that Kerry would tap McCain for VP is a more serious affront to your sensibilities than Clinton refusing to pursue Bush1 crimes of office in matters that led this country straight to 9-11 and this Iraq war.

Actually, it wouldn't be funny - it would be disgusting.

[mtnsnake]

32. Here you go again, buying into RW lies

trying to make like Clinton was responsible for 9/11 just like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity used to do until they also were mocked into near oblivion for doing it.

Do you always get this nonsensical anytime you remember how Kerry wanted McCain for his first choice as his Vice Presidential running mate on his ticket? Geesh.

[blm]

33. Big difference. I say Clinton didn't PURSUE GHWBush's crimes of office that would have

prevented 9-11.

If you can find one RW pundit like Hannity or Limbaugh who agrees that Clinton should've opened the books on Bush1 to prevent 9-11, then please do so. My blame is entirely on the BFEE. Clinton screwed up, maybe out of being kind or maybe out of being naive in thinking they would give him greater cooperation for his agenda, but the result is the same.

[blm]

8. He didn't, but interesting that you find a RW lie to be more damaging to this country than

Clinton's covering up for BushInc on serious matters of IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning, when the fuller revelations of those matters would have prevented Bush2's presidency, 9-11 and this Iraq war.

Why don't you sit down with some 9-11 families and explain how your RW lie about Kerry offering McCain a VP spot has damaged this country more than Clinton's refusal to pursue the outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0511-29.htm

[AtomicKitten]

13. Your incessant posting

of propaganda is the precise definition of a RW lie, whereas it is true and does not require extrapolation to state the Kerry camp floated the notion in the press of McCain running as VP and were summarily rebuffed.

[blm]

15. No - they did not. Biden suggested it on his own to McCain in a casual conversation.

YOU chose to side with the RW lie machine YET AGAIN to spread their extrapolation of Biden's casual remark to McCain. I guess you TRUST those in McCain's camp who were spinning this, but you don't trust McCain on national television saying an offer was never made and he didn't expect one. AN offer was never made.

Now you want to cllaim that YOU KNOW what happened re Clinton's refusal to pursue outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning, but Robert Parry is mere propaganda, eh?

Well, then why don't you explain to all of us who believe Parry and have REASON to believe Parry, since his version is backed up in the actual records - explain to us YOUR version of what happened. Have fun trying to use Clinton's book to get any explanation.

Then we can compare YOUR version of what happened with Parry's and then we can better judge which of you is catapulting the propaganda.

[AtomicKitten]

16. You must find Kerry's overtures to McCain

really distasteful to get so worked up over it particularly with your red herring efforts to change the subject, but it is what it is. Your behavior in these matters is a red flag. Here's some free advice: Best let sleeping dogs lie rather than continue to protest too much thereby calling attention to a factoid you don't like.

[blm]

17. You must find Clinton's coverups for (and loving relationship with) Poppy Bush

an unbearable subject, so you PRETEND the coverups never happened and that Pulitzer Prize winning reporters just have their facts wrong.

And to distract you pretend that somehow a RW lie spun against Kerry about a VP spot is a serious infraction - yet I don't see how anything hurt this country more than letting the Bush family and its agenda be covered up so that they could regroup and rise up stronger than ever.

But then, that shows the difference in our priorities. You worry about a silly RW lie that has no bearing on anything, while I concern myself with exposing the corruption and secrecy that LED to an event like9-11 and the current Mideast policy debacles.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

24. First - everything you said is untrue. Second - no longtime DUer here would believe

for a minute that I was a Naderite, as I have defended Clinton on this board and others FOR YEARS, until I read his book in late 2004. And those who have met me and knew me years ago, also know I was never even ON the forums in 2000 at all, because I was in bed with a high-risk pregnancy and only worked phones for Gore then.

Third - There is no way on earth that Kerry was just 'speculating' about BCCI. That is exactly what a Bush loyalist would say. There have been several books written on BCCI by reputable reporters, you might want to pick one up - or search the National Security Archives. I also said that Clinton INHERITED The outstanding matters in BCCI as the report was released in late 1992 before he took office, and the request was for the outstanding matters to be investigated more fully.

Fourth, McCain DID deny being asked in a number of interviews which were posted. It was a ploy from his camp that got out of hand. Reasonable people know this by now.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-boyce/vice-president-john-mccai_b_16678.html

Fifth - stop attacking me with untruths. You are way over the top with your ludicrous attacks.

[ProSense]

11. This is what happens when one's mind is cluttered with

RW spin.

[AtomicKitten]

12. ... or difficult to comprehend

when one labels RW spin that which one's mind cannot digest because it's tough contemplating reality outside the hermetically sealed box in which some confine their consciousness.

[blm]

25. HAHAHAH. How many times does McCain have to say it? His camp let a rumor

get out of control, and they were having fun with it until the camera gets right in McCain's face and he knows he can't lie. He denies that there was an offer made, and that is still not good enough for your perpetual hate laser focused on Kerry and anyone who defends the truth about Kerry.

And why?

Because you can't stand that many of us supported Kerry BECAUSE he was a fighter against corruption and fought for open government, even at a time when Clinton was not helpful to that cause and refused to pursue outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning.

So you attack everyone who is aware of what did and did not occur and pretend we are lying.

If you believe that it's just a lie, then why don't you put up a poll here at DU and put up two statements and see which one they agree with the most.

I am satisfied that when Clinton took office he pursued outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning with due diligence?

Do you wish that when Clinton took office he facilitated investigations and turned over documents regarding the outstanding matters in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning?

Maybe then you could see that this goes way beyond just what I think - It's about what is TRUE and what is RIGHT and about government respecting its citizens with the truth.

[Tellurian]

20. Yes, Tell us how it worked out for Clinton? Does Impeachment ring a bell?

Or is your memory that short and selective.

[blm]

28. Nice sideshow that distracted from what was really going on in the oil regions

I never said Clinton was treated well after his initial decision to not pursue Bush1's crimes of office. But that's between him and his loving Poppy now, isn't it? We're just a bunch of citizens getting screwed over by Bush2 and his entire gang that should have all been in jail by 1996 and long before anyone heard of Monica Lewinsky and her blue dress.

[Tellurian]

34. Are you telling me,you have been there when Poppy and Bill have been together?

Otherwise, how am I to assume they're relationship is as you claim?

After all, you've proven time and time again...Lying about people is not something you find offensive
or unconscionable in the scheme of things...As long as you accomplish your goal. Discredit people any way you can.

At least I have proof to support MY claims.. Why don't you? All I have is your word. At this point in time, your word has proven itself to be as worthless as your posts. Please remember, in the future, when you respond to my posts bring linked proof of your claims...Otherwise, why waste everyone's time spewing nonsensical unsubstantiated statements, we are unable to Trust as the TRUTH.

Hang on tightly. Let go lightly.

[blm]

35. Bill said it loud and clear a few months ago, "I LOVE GEORGE BUSH!"

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/15692306.htm

There were plenty of threads on this when it happened a month before the election. Guess you missed it.

[Tellurian]

37. Why would he ask for forgiveness afterward if he really meant it?

IOW... I love you blm, I do! {{{{hugs}}}}

please, forgive me duers for saying so!

:rofl:

[blm]

39. Big difference - you and I don't sleep over each other's houses and play golf together ALOT.

If you think for one second that Clinton and Bush1 aren't close, you haven't been paying attention.

[blm]

40. Research exactly what happened and then dare try to make a case it was all 'speculative'

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

[Tellurian]

41. Yes, it's all done and the recommendations have been made to Congress..

And Thanks for proving my point...you really don't know what you're talking about most of the time. Your information was preliminary at best, and here you are wallpapering the threads with BS info. Needing someone to blame, who else, none other than President Clinton (the usual from FLWers) for not going forward with investigations and prosecution..

when recommendations have already been made to Congress and are located in the Executive Summary!

...this investigation goes back 30yrs in it's involvement. I suspect most of the people involved are dead or almost dead..

SUMMARY OF LEGISLATIVE RECOMMENDATIONS

1. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT THE UNITED STATES DEVELOP A MORE AGGRESSIVE AND COORDINATED APPROACH TO INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL CRIME, AND TO MOVE FURTHER AGAINST FOREIGN PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIAL LAWS THAT PROTECT CRIMINALS.

2. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT RECONSIDER THE POLICIES AND PRACTICES THAT LED TO ITS INEFFECTIVENESS IN INVESTIGATING AND PROSECUTING BCCI, AND IMPAIRED ITS ABILITY TO COOPERATE WITH OTHER INVESTIGATIONS OF BCCI BEING CONDUCTED BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE, NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY, AND THE SENATE.

3. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY AND STATE DEPARTMENT UPGRADE THE TRACKING OF FOREIGN FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS AND ACTIVITIES, AND THE DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION CONCERNING SUCH INSTITUTIONS.

4. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT THE CONGRESS CONSIDER WHETHER ADDITIONAL OVERSIGHT MECHANISMS ARE NECESSARY TO ENSURE THE CIA'S ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE PROVISION OF INFORMATION.

5. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT FEDERAL AGENCIES IMPOSE NEW REQUIREMENTS ON FOREIGN AUDITORS TO PROTECT U.S. INTERESTS IN ANY CASE IN WHICH ANY SUCH AGENCY IS RELYING ON AN AUDIT CERTIFIED BY A FOREIGN AUDITOR. AT MINIMUM, THIS SHOULD REQUIRE FOREIGN AUDITORS WHOSE CERTIFICATIONS ARE USED BY INSTITUTIONS DOING BUSINESS IN THE U.S. AGREE TO SUBMIT THEMSELVES TO U.S. LAWS.

6. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT THE PRESIDENT AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE ADVISE THE GOVERNMENT OF ABU DHABI THAT ITS WITHHOLDING OF DOCUMENTS AND WITNESSES PERTAINING TO BCCI FROM U.S. FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT INVESTIGATORS, THE FEDERAL RESERVE, THE NEW YORK DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE CONGRESS THREATENS VITAL U.S. INTERESTS AND WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

7. FURTHER ATTENTION NEEDS TO BE GIVEN TO THE PROBLEM OF THE REVOLVING DOOR IN WASHINGTON, AND THE IMPACT ON THE REGULATORY PROCESS AND ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OF POLITICAL INFLUENCE IN WASHINGTON. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THE CONSIDERATION OF LEGISLATING A FEDERAL STATUTORY CODE OF CONDUCT FOR ATTORNEYS WHO PRACTICE BEFORE FEDERAL AGENCIES.

8. THE SELF-REGULATION OF THE U.S COMMODITIES MARKETS BY THE COMMODITIES FUTURES TRADING COMMISSION, THE CHICAGO BOARD OF TRADE, AND THE CHICAGO MERCANTILE EXCHANGE IS INADEQUATE TO PROTECT THOSE MARKETS AGAINST MONEY LAUNDERING INVOLVING TRADES

FROM ABROAD. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT THE EXCHANGES MAKE MONEY LAUNDERING ILLEGAL, AND DEMAND THAT THIS REQUIREMENT BE ACCEPTED BY FOREIGN COMMODITIES EXCHANGES WITH WHOM THEY DO BUSINESS, AS A CONDITION OF ACCESS TO US EXCHANGES.

9. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT FURTHER STEPS BE TAKEN TO INSURE ADEQUATE ACCOUNTABILITY OF FOREIGN FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS DOING BUSINESS IN THE UNITED STATES, INCLUDING REQUIRING FOREIGN BANKS FORM SEPARATELY CAPITALIZED HOLDING COMPANIES IN THE UNITED STATES AS A CONDITION OF LICENSE AND THE CONSIDERATION BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE OF ESTABLISHMENT A MINIMUM STANDARD FOR CONSOLIDATED REGULATION THAT EXCLUDES BANK REGULATORY HAVENS.

10. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT FOREIGN INVESTORS WHO PURCHASE SUBSTANTIAL SHARES OF U.S. BUSINESSES BE REQUIRED TO APPEAR PERSONALLY IN THE UNITED STATES AS INSURANCE THAT THE FOREIGN INVESTOR IS NOT ACTING AS A NOMINEE FOR SOMEONE ELSE.

11. TURF WARS CONTINUE TO SEVERELY DAMAGE THE ABILITY OF LAW-ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES IN THE UNITED STATES TO DO THEIR JOB. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A COMMITTEE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS WHOSE JOB IT IS TO CONDUCT OVERSIGHT OF, PREVENT, AND RESPOND TO FAILURES OF COOPERATION IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

12. THE SUBCOMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THAT A STATUTORY MECHANISM FOR THE RECEIPT BY CONGRESS OF FOREIGN FINANCIAL INFORMATION BE ESTABLISHED.

.......who will be the next victim of your baseless attacks? Is There nothing that will deter you from your next smear.... an apology is in order, doncha think?

[blm]

42. You still don't get it. You REFUSE to get it. There was still more to be done, and Clinton

made the call to not accomodate any further investigation or facilitate access to documents that were blocked by his predecessor. And then he writes his book and leaves out any mention of WHY he chose to move past BCCI. Hell, I used to defend his choice for years saying he was told the entire world economy would collapse over BCCI revelations, and mentioned that many times here at DU when I ws still defeding him, and then I read his book and he never even bothers to make one reference to it - an insult to all of his supporters and defenders who had been anxious to hear the fuller story.

That may satisfy you who had no longtime interest in IranContra and BCCI issues, but it certainly did NOT set well with the many of us who were looking forthe greater truth WITH details.

PS: No one goes through entire BCCI report in a couple of hours. A couple WEEKS maybe, if you are very fast and comprehensive, but never in a couple hours.

[Tellurian]

43. I read the most significant parts..

It all boiled down to two Defendants, Clifford and Altman..
They suggested barring Altman from Banking for Life and Clifford's case was going to review to have some of the charges dropped and they most likely walked away with a pat on the back...and said, "Oh, well!"

Theres really nothing there. It never was the big hoopdeedoo you thought it was.

Next-

[blm]

44. No it didn't. That was a peripheral matter in a NY STATE case.

Robert Mueller was the US Attorney who refused to make any prosecution case in federal court, so to keep the case alive Kerry took parts of it to NY to be tried on state charges wherever possible - that was to keep the case ALIVE because so many in DC were trying to stop it at every turn.

Clifford and Altman problems were a very small piece of the case that existed on its periphery - not even close to being the heart of the case.

Robert Mueller is now head of the FBI - and still covering up for BushInc.

THAT is the result of the failure to pursue it further.

You also just totally proved you absolutely don't have a clue.

[Tellurian]

45. The bottom line is the summary given to Congress..

And the fact remains the case begins 30 yrs ago and those who are deeply involved will never come to trial because there are so many fall guys who will go before them. You are right about one thing though, this case is going nowhere, and it isn't Clintons fault..Two, the world will continue to revolve whether the corruption of the people you are interested in are brought to Justice or not. And quite honestly, while you seem overly concerned about riding in on your white horse to bring people to Justice, our World is falling apart around us. Be concerned about living in the present...we are in great jeopardy in case you haven't noticed.

If Clinton disappointed you while reading his book....well, thats unfortunate. Disappointment is something we all have to learn to live with. Adults move on to the matters at hand that they can do something about. Matters that have life or death consequences who live in the real world. If you're content to be a dilettante, sleuthing, maven, we have to pickup your slack adding twice the work to make the world a better place for ourselves and our families. While you play house with Watson and Sherlock Holmes...and pontificate from the sidelines as if you have something important to say or as if your distractive corruption addiction will somehow benefit the world.

So don't forget to send your summary to Senator Kerry, and ask him why he hasn't brought his investigation to conclusion, seeing that his old buddy Mueller is now head of FBI.. I'd love to hear his answer.

[blm]

47. That would have been fine BEFORE 9-11, but not after. Clueless, simply clueless.

Too clueless for words.

[Tellurian]

48. Now 9/11 is an issue related to BCCI... thats some kind of Con-Job

The future fallacy argument moving backwards in time.. including the circular argument arriving the same place you started from.. Blaming Clinton.

Yes, let me hear the connection.. with the proviso, Gore handed Cheney the Hart-Rudman report included.
You know how you like to cheat!

[blm]

49. You don't even understand 99% of BCCI. You proved it already.

It would be like trying to teach you Chinese at this point. It takes a LONG time to go through BCCI - a VERY long time.

[Tellurian]

50. I suggest you wallpaper your bathroom with it...because it's worthless..

The statute of limitations has probably run out and you know little or nothing about what your talking about after just finding out Congress has been handed recommendations for reforms and changes long ago, which is all the public is interested in..

And to bring you back to point-

after sifting thru your informative data.
There isn't an iota of fault you can fling at the Clintons.

If you don't like it...wallpaper your living room!

[blm]

51. Clueless. Simply clueless.

.

[Tellurian]

53. Yeh, tell me the connection between 9/11 and BCCI ?

same rules apply..I'm waiting fill me in!

Getting the hip boots up from the basement.

[AtomicKitten]

54. I admire your diligence Tellurian.

Your patience in these matters is endless. These over-the-top claims have been disproved here repeatedly and I for one have no inclination of feeding into this obsession over and over again. I understand your commitment to the truth and diligence in that regard, but at some point this block-headed resistance to truth, reality, and reason must be dealt with as the nonsensical ramblings of Tricky Uncle Phillip at family gatherings ... ignore it.

[blm]

55. BCCI was the first terrorist bank.

It would take weeks to try and teach someone about it from the beginning, and that is where you obviously are at - the beginning. You want to act superior over those of us who have watched the issues intently for 20 years, yet you never even knew the first thing about it and tried to con this borad as if you did - we would never get conned on this story. Too many of us here know it too well.

If you want an easy bake oven sketch of it and why it matters, this article from two years ago may be of service, but I would encourage you to read more indepth reports and analysis of it IF you really want to know.

In the meantime:

Follow the Money

How John Kerry busted the terrorists' favorite bank.
By David Sirota and Jonathan Baskin

Two decades ago, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) was a highly respected financial titan. In 1987, when its subsidiary helped finance a deal involving Texas oilman George W. Bush, the bank appeared to be a reputable institution, with attractive branch offices, a traveler's check business, and a solid reputation for financing international trade. It had high-powered allies in Washington and boasted relationships with respected figures around the world.

All that changed in early 1988, when John Kerry, then a young senator from Massachusetts, decided to probe the finances of Latin American drug cartels. Over the next three years, Kerry fought against intense opposition from vested interests at home and abroad, from senior members of his own party; and from the Reagan and Bush administrations, none of whom were eager to see him succeed.

By the end, Kerry had helped dismantle a massive criminal enterprise and exposed the infrastructure of BCCI and its affiliated institutions, a web that law enforcement officials today acknowledge would become a model for international terrorist financing. As Kerry's investigation revealed in the late 1980s and early 1990s, BCCI was interested in more than just enriching its clients--it had a fundamentally anti-Western mission. Among the stated goals of its Pakistani founder were to "fight the evil influence of the West," and finance Muslim terrorist organizations. In retrospect, Kerry's investigation had uncovered an institution at the fulcrum of America's first great post-Cold War security challenge.

>>>>>
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html

[mtnsnake]

56. There isn't a bathroom big enough, not even in John Edwards new house,

that has enough wall space to hold the amount of one-wayed propaganda that she pastes here about the same BCCI/Clinton books/In bed with Pappy/blah blah blah stuff, over and over and over like a broken record stuck in the
Twilight Zone. Jayeeesus!!

[Tellurian]

58. Or a Crackpot looking for attention..

All the BS she prints is old news and has been resolved years ago.
Yes, you're absolutely correct.. The Twilight Zone in John Kerryland.

[LiberalFighter]

3. Not with these Republicans

[welshTerrier2]

5. i'll go for an equivocating "maybe"

i am strongly for immediate withdrawal from Iraq. I've hated the mealy-mouthed non-policy we've seen from the Democrats.

however, I was willing to give this last effort on the "bi-partisan non-binding" bill a chance. i believed it was important to tread softly on republicans who clearly were going to have a very difficult time "letting go" of 6 years of blind loyalty to da fuhrur ... i really hope i'm wrong about this but i'm afraid Warner's "alternative proposal" is going to make the whole damned thing fail.

if it does, Dems should let loose with investigations into every single action bush has taken since he stuck his butt in the big chair ... if republicans reject the offer of bi-partisanship, let's show them the price for their folly ...

[Evergreen Emerald]

7. they don't want bi-partisianship, they want the dems to lay down

so it is easier to walk all over them. Bush and his co-horts are not bi-partisan. They have not suggested anything that resembles compromise.

[eddiemunster]

10. BS theory...

I want my side to win...not theirs. Otherwise, let's just have one party.

[primative1]

14. One thing makes it easier ...

Its not hard to think that way.
I can honestly and completly say that there isnt one single thing, however trivial, that the GOP supports that I am not emphaticaly opposed to.
There is no middle ground.
Its like we are from different planets.

[bluehighways911]

18. YES

Of course it can be very effective.

Here's what the hate crowd doesn't get. Not every Republican is Dick Cheney. No kidding.

So if you care about an issue, like say, Global Warming. And you find Republicans that want to work on it as well.

Please tell me what is wrong with that?

So if you don't want to work with them. You may kiss the planet good-bye.

You are no better then Rush Limbaugh.

So thank you for stating what America needs. And yes, I am a liberal, blah, blah, blah.

So Democrats will get things done. And the hatemongers will be on here for the next twenty years talking about how evil Bush is.

We will go on.

[primative1]

19. You havent been watching the show ...

Any time you get Bi-partisan support it just means you get a watered down bill. The add ons to appease the hold outs add something to the intent?
If you get enough 'bi-partisanship" you will not even be able to match a bills content with its original intent. They will bear no resemblance to eachother.
The only reason you see "bi-partisan" fig leaves exchanged is because some people would rather pass ANY legislation in the hope of appearing to make "progress", than to actualy address problems as we wish them to.
In these days that may mean no bill for the present time. So be it.

[harveyc]

26. Ending the Iraqi war is a partisan issue right now, period. ... n/t

[BreweryYardRat]

57. Some Republicans, especially in the House are willing to work with us.

Problem is, there are still plenty of hard-liners in the Senate who won't do jack.

[dae]

46. Only the deluded. eom

[Javaman]

52. In LBB (life before bush*) yes, now, no. nt