Why would anyone have a problem with what Biden said about Obama?

[wyldwolf]

I caught Laura Ingraham just now reacting the same way the left is, but you both seem to ignore the subject of discussion was candidates for president. And Biden is right. Obama IS the first mainstream African-American candidate for President who is articulate and bright and clean (meaning no real skeletons in the closet) and a nice-looking guy.

Is there something wrong with pointing that out because Obama is black? Or does someone here believe another African American presidential candidate fits that description? Jesse Jackson? Alan Keyes? C'mon! Mainstream America would have NEVER voted for those two but they would for Obama, IMO.

Obama is the FIRST electable black candidate for President.

[LynneSin]

1. I adore Biden, I like he's my senator but he has said some dumbass things

and this is one of them. About a year ago he made another dumbass comment about Indian-Americans.

He's a great senator but I feel running for president is nothing more than a waste of a few million dollars

[rodeodance]

3. we all say stupid things now and then.

[pnwmom]

56. Maybe, but I'm sick of my President saying stupid things.

I want a President who thinks before he opens his mouth. Wouldn't that be a nice change?

[cadmium]

220. I hope Biden doesnt start censoring himself

he didnt' say anything off base at all. Obama has been a senator only two years -- therefore is relatively clean. We moan and groan about the media but keep buying into their blown up pseudo issues.

[Catchawave]

24. Joe's not known for "political correctness"

And probably why the Sunday Morning talk shows and me like him so much. He's a "what you see is what you get" sort of guy, with refreshing honesty :) Obama, Edwards, Clinton and other Dems in the field will only become stronger ... or not !

[pnwmom]

55. I remember that dumbass comment.

Something about you can't go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin Donuts without running into Indian Americans.

I'm glad you like him as a Senator, but I don't think he has a chance at the Presidency, either.

[IWantAChange]

2. Bravo Sen. Biden - an honest opinion from an honest man.

Would seem some have forgotten how to interpret something that doesn't need to be filtered to the nth degree.

[wyldwolf]

7. Biden should issue an apology immediately worded thusly:

Dear Sen. Obama:

Please accept my apologies. I didn't mean to say you were the first bright, articulate, and morally upright African American candidate for President. I'm sure there have been better looking ones smarter and more articulate with a cleaner record, their names just escape me now.

Sincerely,

Sen. Joseph Biden

[pnwmom]

116. He didn't say "morally upright," he said "clean." You can say all you want

about what he MEANT. The reality is that he, himself, was incredibly INarticulate and INsensitive.

[wyldwolf]

192. which is the same thing according to the dictionary

[fishwax]

213. But is not what Biden meant, according to his own comments on the daily show

[Tellurian]

147. ....You are....

really BAD!

:rofl:

[Leopolds Ghost]

152. The fact that you guys are so ignorant about African Americans in public life tells me

That Biden should say something about you.

Or else there are a lot of trolls on DU. I mean, I realize
there are lots of closet racists in the progressive community,
and lots of people who are simply ignorant about the African
American community and history. I live in such a community.

Ignorance is no excuse for disassociating with yourself from
black people to such a degree that you think all previous
black leaders were not nice, or not clean, or too mouthy,
or too dark skinned, or whatever it is you think.

[beaconess]

158. Hear hear!!! n/m

[Spiffarino]

4. "Articulate" & "Clean"

...are asshole words. They damn with faint praise.

If nothing else, it proves how politically tone-deaf Joe Biden is. He is a terrible presidential candidate who will probably go down in flames before the primary season ends.

[wyldwolf]

8. Then I certainly will never call you "articulate" and "clean."

[Spiffarino]

16. Then allow me to be more articulate

They damn black people with faint praise. If you doubt it, ask a black person if he or she likes being called "articulate."

[wyldwolf]

18. I just did. In the cubicle next to mine. He said "yes."

[Spiffarino]

26. Then I'm happy for him.

To my friend, not so much. She told me that she saw the phrase, "you're so articulate" as a backhanded compliment at best.

Perhaps we can chalk it up to a matter of opinion, but I wouldn't consider saying those things to my black friends or family except under specific conditions. As generalities, they strike me as ignorant.

[pnwmom]

146. The problem may be that the vast majority of white people

would take it as a real compliment if someone said they were articulate. I know I would.

In general, most American people -- of all races -- aren't very well spoken these days. So when I say that Barack Obama or Mario Cuomo or Ted Kennedy or Bill or Hillary Clinton is articulate, that's a compliment, not a slur on their ethnicity or gender.

[Leopolds Ghost]

155. Not if you are unpopular and assumed to be inarticulate (like me).

Then it is may be a patronizing statement.

"I didn't realize you were so articulate!"

It's also patronizing to call a peer or superior articulate
in a work situation. Try calling your boss "very articulate"
in front of his boss.

Similar for calling black people articulate, in my opinion.

Calling them articulate implies either:

(a) public praise of a close friend
(b) false familiarity
(c) patronizing rhetoric towards someone who is not a peer
or superior, like calling them a "hard worker".

[ret5hd]

27. Cool...next time you're out in public with him...

and you run into an acquantance, introduce him as "one of the more articulate and clean blacks in our office".

Get back to me on how he reacts.

[wyldwolf]

31. but that wasn't the context of Biden's words

Whereas their are plenty of black people in my office, you can count on one hand the number who have ran half-serious presidential campaigns. And the fact they are black is ALWAYS pointed out.

[ret5hd]

96. Yeah, I'd be afraid to do it too.

[deucemagnet]

205. I think you've hit on the crux of the problem.

When Biden said "articulate and clean" some heard "articulate and clean black", and had a problem with it. I think what Biden meant (the way I heard it, anyway) was articulate and clean politician.

[Leopolds Ghost]

154. I'm white, and when I'm called articulate it is usually a backhanded compliment.

Articulate is something you say about people you know.

NOT in comparison to others.

In comparison to others it is both backhanded and demeaning to others.

Biden not only said he's the MOST articulate black leader he knew
(a backhanded compliment and demeaning to the rest of the field)
but that he was the FIRST articulate black leader anyone's known.

How much more demeaning can you get?

If I called Pelosi articulate, it might be faint praise in context.

If I called her the only articulate Democrat, or said she was
articulate compared to her colleagues, how would you react?

[Labors of Hercules]

222. Depends on who you exclude, and whether you say it with respect or with surprise.

For example:
Call me the first bright, clean, articulate redneck in mainstream politics and I sure as hell won't get mad at you.
but John Edwards might.

Anyway, some people need to lighten up and others need to read some Dale Carnegie.

[karynnj]

25. self-delete

[TayTay]

22. Clean can mean without known baggage

Depends on the context. Candidates are clean when they don't have any whiff of corruption or unsavory attachments to them. So Sen. Obama is politically 'clean.' (I have heard this term before used in exactly this context.)

[Spiffarino]

37. Never thought of it in the context of unblemished by corruption

It makes sense. I may have to give you that one.

Besides, I would hate to believe Biden was being that insensitive.

[wyldwolf]

40. that was the entire point of the OP

[pnwmom]

106. So? If it WAS his point, he said it very badly.

We don't need another President as INARTICULATE as he is.

[Spiffarino]

117. If that's the case

...it wasn't clear.

[pnwmom]

148. Biden says that he meant to say "fresh and new."

So, if you believe Biden, the whole basis for this thread is incorrect.

[pnwmom]

58. I think articulate is a fine word. It's a rare quality in politicians these

days. What a joy it would be to have an articulate President, after these 8 years with President Mushbrain.

But clean? That was a very unfortunate choice of words.

[beaconess]

101. Most well-educated, accomplished black people are offended when we're called "articulate"

since it implies that the commentator is surprised that we can ar-ti-cu-late, being black and all.

Very few white people are described as articulate - it's just assumed that they are.

[pnwmom]

111. I think you're wrong about that. John Edwards, for example.

I've often read that he's articulate. Same with Hillary Clinton. Because she is.

And we now have one of the most INarticulate Presidents in history. We're all dying to go back to the days when a President was a good communicator. I myself have said that I'm impressed with how articulate Obama is, but that's not because I think it is a rare quality among African Americans in particular. It's because I think it's a rare quality among Americans in general and among politicians in general -- even though they should be good speakers.

[beaconess]

114. Apparently, Biden DOES think it's a rare commodity among black candidates

enough that he felt it appropriate to comment about it.

[pnwmom]

118. As I said, I've commented on it too. I think MOST Americans, of all races,

are increasingly INARTICULATE, our current President being a prime example. One reason for the decline is probably our submersion in television -- people who used to spend hours in reading or conversation now spend it in front of the boobtube. The other is a change in pedagogy that has put less and less emphasis on speaking well.

So I applaud any politician who can speak especially well -- like Ted Kennedy, Mario Cuomo, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Jesse Jackson, and Barak Obama. I'm not insulting other African Americans -- more than most Americans -- when I applaud Obama for this. I'm just reacting to a quality that George Mushmouth has me yearning for -- every single day.

[Leopolds Ghost]

160. It implies Biden was educated in a Southern school

And taught that black leaders after Reconstruction
were corrupt and uneducated, "playing at government".

Most Americans alive were taught this about the "failure of
Reconstruction" and hence the lack of "clean" black politicians
(Before Obama).

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

79. Uhm, I'm usually honored when someone calls me those.

I think the only asshole words are those that call praise "asshole words".

[pnwmom]

149. Me, too. If someone were to say I was bright and articulate,

I wouldn't be insulted.

[Leopolds Ghost]

161. What if they said you were the first bright and articulate white person theyd come across

in your position in life?

[pnwmom]

181. I totally understand why Biden's statement was wrong. It made me cringe.

But I'm talking about a different point here. Some people were arguing that it's always a backhanded compliment to say that a specific black person is articulate. I disagree. I don't think it's "damning with faint praise" to say that Barack Obama is articulate -- anymore than it's damning with faint praise to say that Ted Kennedy, and Mario Cuomo, and the Clintons are articulate.

Articulate is good. Smart is good. You can attribute these qualities to people you like without disparaging other people of their ethnicity or gender. But that's not what Biden did. He complimented Obama by CONTRASTING him with the African Americans that came before him, with language that made it sound like Obama was the first African American to have those qualities. And that, as we all know, is outrageous.

[beaconess]

208. You've got to view the "articulate" description in context

If it were simply a case of a black person accurately being called articulate from time to time, there would be no problem. But there's a history here - educated blacks have all-too-frequently been described as "articulate" in situations in which it would just be assumed as a given and not worthy of mention that a white person with similar background and credentials were similarly well-spoken. It happens so frequently that it's the subject of jokes in the black community.

In my experience, for the most part, when a white person describes a black person as articulate, they really mean he doesn't "sound black," i.e., it's not about his grammar and ability to convey his thoughts clearly, but he does it in a way that makes him sound almost indistinguishable from a white person and is therefore more worthy of praise than the "other" blacks.

Certainly, every white person who says a black person is articulate doesn't mean this. But there is such a history of this particular description being a back-handed compliment rooted in racial stereotypes that blacks (and others) natually bristle when hearing another black person described this way. The underlying message that we hear, based upon our very valid experience, is "Oh, my, but doesn't he talk good for a colored boy?"

The fact that Biden, after all of his years in public life, didn't know any better than to say something this tone-deaf, regardless of his meaning (and I certainly don't believe he meant it as an insult), raises serious questions to me about whether he gets it when it comes to the complicated issue of race in America.

[Spiffarino]

182. self-delete

Not worth it.

[BlueManDude]

5. I'm sick of this stupid ass 08 election already.

[Echotrail]

52. Ditto

x(

It is off to an incredibly superficial start.

[ItNerd4life]

67. ROFL! I agree!

Thanks for the laugh.

[Leopolds Ghost]

163. What's superficial about racist remarks?

Many folks here were only TOO happy to swiftboat Kerry about a statement
that had NOTHING to do with an entire class of people.

[earthside]

6. I Don't Get It, Either

I'm no Biden fan, but, hey, he summed up Obama.

Biden said all the positive things there are to explain the Obama presidential campaign.

Because there is no 'there' there with Obama except the superficial attributes.

I think some people may be upset because Biden actually told the truth.

[demnan]

9. I think it's the clean part

that gets me the most. As if Al Sharpton or Carol Mosley-Braun weren't clean or something. It's essential racism.

[wyldwolf]

10. "clean" meaning "free of corruption." You believe Sharpton fits that bill?

And do you believe mainstream middle American would have voted for either of them?

[demnan]

14. I don't know you might be right

but what was intended and how it sounded are two separate things. It was still a bad comment.

[wyldwolf]

17. What was intented and how the left and rightwing choose to interpret it is very telling

Both partisan branches would benefit by having Biden out of the race. So the left and the right want to make us believe Biden described other black candidates as having poor hygiene?

Anyone with good sense knows what "clean" means in the context it was used in. But I do often give people on DU too much credit.

[demnan]

28. Oh yes

you are so much smarter than everyone else around here :sarcasm:

[wyldwolf]

32. on this, I apparently am

Anyone who thinks a US Senator would tell a reported that prior black presidential candidates have had poor hygiene is a dumbass.

[pnwmom]

112. OR they think that U.S. Senator is a dumbass.

And, in the case of Biden, they'd be right, but for a different reason. He was a dumbass to make yet again a statement involving race that could be so easily misinterpreted.

[wyldwolf]

119. You mean "purposely misinterpreted"

[pnwmom]

140. I didn't purposely misinterpret him, and neither did you.

I interpreted him to mean clean, as opposed to dirty. You interpreted him to mean "corruption free."

But we were both wrong.

He says he meant "fresh and new." As Jesse Jackson said, next time he means "fresh and new," that's what he should say. Not something that could be so easily misinterpreted.

[beaconess]

105. Obama is NOT the first non-corrupt black person to run for president

And he's not the first articulate black person to run for president.

And he's not the first smart black person to run for president.

And he's not the first smart, articulate, non-corrupt black person to run for president.

Biden doesn't need to "explain" his comments. He needs to apologize.

[Leopolds Ghost]

165. Don't expect an apology from some folks here. They said they agreed with Biden

that blacks have no history in elected office they can be proud of.

[beaconess]

174. These discussions are very revealing, aren't they?

No wonder so many DUers are so certain that whites won't vote for Obama because he' black. And here I thought they were speculating about OTHER people.

[Dean Martin]

180. Yeah -sigh- ..... we're supposed to be the open minded party

Alot of threads I've been reading on this board since I joined don't sound any different from the conservatives, at least where the subject of race is concerned.

Maybe this is one of the reasons some fence-sitters think there are no differences any more between the two parties.

[Guaranteed]

179. .....Nope. Look at the context. Look at what comes right after it.

He's referring to appearance.

"...clean and a nice-looking guy."

[Leopolds Ghost]

164. "Mainstream Middle America would not have voted for Mosely-Braun"

Interesting, do tell.

I guess Obama's only Half-Black so that makes him more electable, hmm?

[Patiod]

94. I think just the opposite

Maybe because I'm from a city with a filthy, dirty, corrupt (Democratic) machine, but when someone calls a candidate "clean" here, I think it's the best compliment possible. Don't associate it with race at all. One of the benefits of being young is that you're less likely to have gotten "dirty" rolling around with the pigs of Big City politics - I heard "clean" and thought "in a way most Chicago/Illinois politicos aren't"

I had a roommate, however, who explained to me that she and most other black folks HATE hearing that they're "articulate" because what they hear underneath is "most black people aren't very well-spoken" and that she's "one of the good ones". If someone said it about me, I'd take it as a compliment. But if someone who is black takes it as an insult, we have to understand where they are coming from.

[Karenina]

204. It makes me CRINGE!

"But if someone who is black takes it as an insult, we have to understand where they are coming from."

I wish more here had your open mind. I integrated the schools in my area back in the 50's. I didn't see another black face in a classroom for a DECADE. When white people assume to interpret my experience for me it makes me want to :puke: I KNOW THE SUBTLETIES OF RACISM. THEY DO NOT.

[More Than A Feeling]

11. Here is what Biden is quoted as saying:

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

Not "African-American candidate". Just plain "African-American". If Biden wanted to say what you think he said, he could have done that very easily. If you could do it, how much easier for a professional politician renowned for his love of words?

But he didn't, did he? The fact that he didn't stop to think, especially under the bright lights of a presidential campaign, is quite telling.

Even if he had said what you think he said, he still would have been wrong. Jackson won five primaries the first time, and eleven the second time. Doesn't sound like out of the mainstream to me.

[wyldwolf]

19. dude, they were discussing candidates!

[Spiffarino]

20. Exactly why I say Biden is "tone-deaf"

He's smart in nearly every way, but not when it comes to mass communication. It's why McCain is headed for a freefall (which seems to have begun already). They don't think hard before they speak.

Speaking the truth as one sees it is admirable, but the way truth must be spoken is dramatically different on a national stage. Every word a Democratic candidate says is subject to heavy scrutiny. Repubs not so much...but I digress.

[harveyc]

35. He was talking about the candidates in the interview ...

http://www.observer.com/20070205/20070205_Jason_Horowitz_politics_newsstory1.asp

[Guaranteed]

173. "clean and a nice-looking guy"- as in, not physically dirty. nt

[rinsd]

12. Not the brightest comment but certainly not the end of the world. (nt)

[Zensea]

13. Jesse Jackson is mainstream as far as I'm concerned

which means that in my opinion Biden isn't even correct in his statement.
Guess you don't think Jackson is mainstream? But your logic is flawed ... there's a difference between saying someone is mainstream and saying that mainstream America would or would not have voted for someone.
There are plenty of people in mainstream America who will not vote for Obama either, doesn't mean he's not mainstream or that Jackson wasn't.

On a tangent, I got tired of the electable meme with Kerry, I sure dislike seeing it back again.

[NYCGirl]

15. I'm not crazy about the idea for anyone with "Reverend" in his name running

for President. Does that make him not "mainstream"?

[Connie_Corleone]

21. And last year, Biden bragged about being from a slave state.

And he insulted Indian-Americans.

I wouldn't tolerate his statements if he was a republican. Biden gets no pass from me just because he's a Democrat.

Yes, we just love it when white people tell some of us how articulate and smart we are (with that look of shock on their faces), like it's some oddity that black people can be articulate and smart.

[More Than A Feeling]

29. It's like "How many more times does he have to do it before it stops being a coincidence or...

an innocent mistake?"

[RethugAssKicker]

23. BULLSHIT !

Blacks always get scrutinized more.

Was Jackson, or Keyes (especially Keyes), Sharpton... NOT articulate?

not BRIGHT?... not clean-cut???


Biden's comments were fucking racist.

[Spiffarino]

30. I wouldn't go as far as that, but...

I think it made him sound like the archetypal well-meaning white person, the one who says to the random African-American in the theater, "Oh my, I just love that Sammy Davis, Jr.! He's so well-spoken...and such a good dancer!"

[wyldwolf]

33. NOT "BULLSHIT"

Jackson, Sharpton, and Keyes were not "mainstream." They were corrupt.

[marmar]

95. Keyes was a jackass, but Jackson and Sharpton were corrupt? How so?

This sounds like some Limbaugh crap.

[wyldwolf]

121. you're joking, right?

[pnwmom]

34. I doubt that "clean" means "no skeletons." That's not how it read to me.

Jesse Jackson was articulate, bright, clean, and nice-looking. Mainstream America might not have voted for Jesse Jackson, but it was because he was perceived as too liberal -- and too black.

[wyldwolf]

36. So we should now not use "clean" in regard to being corruption-free?

Jesse Jackson was NOT clean. His "Hymie town" comments alone discount him being clean.

[More Than A Feeling]

38. Interesting.

Jackson's comments? he's dirty. Biden's comments? nothing wrong there.

Don't you see that you have a double-standard?

[wyldwolf]

39. It is interesting

No one has said Biden isn't clean. But Jackson is not clean.

[More Than A Feeling]

41. Um, that's what your whole thread is about.

That Biden was perfectly fine for what he said? In regard to his comments, wouldn't that make him "clean", by your standard? Versus Jackson's comments alone making him "dirty"?

Again, you have a double standard.

[wyldwolf]

42. um, no, my OP is about Biden's use of the word "clean,"

It isn't about Biden's background.

[More Than A Feeling]

43. Biden's background and character are the issue here.

You're defending his comments that to many people, including me, contain subtexts of racism. This isn't the first time he has made comments of this character, as others have pointed out to you. I'm pointing out that you are so eager to jump on Jackson for what he said, but Biden is fine by you. When George Allen said Macaca, did you buy that he was just talking about a mohawk, or whatever lame excuses he came up with? What about when Trent Lott gave Thurmond his birthday toast?

Why are you defending Joe Biden?

[wyldwolf]

45. no, the issue is the words he used in describing Obama

[Karenina]

68. What a "classic" exchange!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Memo to Wyldwolf:

I understand that you believe we're all just too sensitive and whatnot but

Biden's "use of words" was

INCREDIBLY OFFENSIVE.

[wyldwolf]

73. memo to Karenina

No, I give most of you more credit than that. No one here really believes A US Senator speaking directly to a reporter said or implied African-American politicians had poor hygiene. But, like the rightwing does, you're seizing on the words because you don't like Biden.

Kinda like the who pick-up truck and gun thing with Howard Dean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. No, he just implied that the average black politician is corrupt

:eyes:

[wyldwolf]

91. no, he imlied that the other black candidates for president have been corrupt

[pnwmom]

98. And he's wrong about Carol Moseley Braun, if that's the case.

After a five year investigation, she was completely vindicated. I'm sure the Bush administration would have loved to pin something on her, but they couldn't.

[beaconess]

107. And he implied that EVERY black candidate was corrupt

[wyldwolf]

120. ...no, he implied none have had the same combinations of qualities as Obama

[beaconess]

123. And that's wrong, too

Many black candidates have been articulate AND smart AND clean. Obama is NOT the first one.

[wyldwolf]

126. no it isn't.

We're talking candidates for president with a legitimate shot.

[beaconess]

129. Oh, really? Nice parsing, but that's not what he said.

I don't think Biden is a bigot, but I think his comments were insensitive, insulting and downright stupid.

If he had said the exact same thing about a woman candidate, I think many women would be just as critical - and the people would have been all over him, instead of twisting themselves in knots trying to explain what he REALLY meant.

Words have consequences. They especially have consequences when uttered by people who have been in public life for more than 30 years and want to be president - Biden should know better.

[LeftishBrit]

214. I agree

He may be well-meaning and just stupid with words, but if he got to be president and was that stupid with words at a summit meeting, he could cause an international crisis.

But I assume he has no chance at the presidency, and is thus not 'mainstream' himself?

[Karenina]

132. And exactly HOW do YOU know

that I "don't *like* Biden?" :shrug:

[pnwmom]

47. Biden sounded like a bigot in that comment, just as Jackson did

with the Hymietown comment.

[wyldwolf]

57. Only to those who have an ax to grind with Biden

[pnwmom]

99. I think about Biden very little. But when I saw that quote,

I understood "clean" in the dictionary sense (first definition). And I bet lots of other non-politicians understood it that way, too. So I was appalled.

(I also wondered why he was ignoring the female African American candidates, but that's another issue.)

But after I started thinking about it, I realized that it fit with other comments I've heard him make. He's really prone to racial foot-in-mouth statements. That's a huge problem for any candidate.

[pnwmom]

44. If we mean corruption free, that's what we should say.

Using the word clean -- which most commonly refers to the absense of dirt -- in that context was a huge mistake, IMO.

[wyldwolf]

46. LOL! OK...

When a police officer frisks a suspect and doesn't find a weapon, the officer should say, "he's without a gun." He can't say "he's clean."

[pnwmom]

49. In the context of a TV show, yeah, everyone would understand what

that means.

But I and plenty of other people did NOT understand what Biden meant in this context. And part of this is because of what else we know about Biden. He's got a history of making racist-sounding, foot-in-mouth comments.

[wyldwolf]

51. Oh, Look! Josh Marshall at TPM said John Edwards was "clean."

I thought Cheney started very weak and that Edwards started just as strong. Cheney recovered after not too long; but Edwards remained clean and on-message.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_03.php

I guess Edwards had taken a shower recently and no longer had body odor.

[Spiffarino]

127. And in context, the word has a definite implication

"Clean" in this context meaning he didn't bumble, make weak arguments, stayed focused, etc.

Biden's remarks included nothing that would lend added meaning to the word. Did he mean "As everybody knows, black people are usually dirty, but not Barack Obama!"? I doubt it. The problem is that he simply spouted off in a stream-of-consciousness manner and turned it into a problem for himself.

As for the "articulate" comment, I stand firmly by my earlier comment. That was idiotic.

[FrenchieCat]

50. Since Biden is NOT a policeman frisking Obama......

He should have said "without baggage" if that is what he meant.

As we all know, the days of youtubes doesn't allow for too many mistakes.

SO like other politicians, when they stick their foot in their mouth, Biden will have to pay the consequences.....just like everyone else. period.

[wyldwolf]

53. saying "clean" is another way of saying that.

People say one's driving record is "clean," not that it is free from speeding tickets.

[More Than A Feeling]

54. What an awful metaphor.

[Leopolds Ghost]

167. It's probably the first one that springs to mind for most Americans

talking about black people as being "clean" (if they don't literally mean
"well dressed, not wearing those gang-banger clothes")

After all, you got people on this very thread saying all the previous candidates (including Frederick Douglass) were criminals.

[Guaranteed]

177. Just don't put it next to "nice-looking." Gives people the "wrong idea." nt

[fishwax]

185. that's not what he meant, according to his comments on the daily show

he meant "fresh" and "new." He didn't say anything about corruption-free.

I've seen a lot of DU'ers claim, in response to criticism of his comments, that he *obviously* meant corruption free, and so African Americans who were upset simply *must* be overreacting. But according to Biden himself, that's not what he meant. Hmmm ...

[goodhue]

48. Articulate & clean seems blatantly pejorative of other arfrican-americans

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton for instance. Resort to "mainstream" begs the question.

In any event, what of Douglas Wilder in 1992. He was a pretty mainstream moderate guy.

He seemed pretty clean although perhaps not as articulate as Jesse Jackson.

[Arugula Latte]

59. Does Obama like fried chicken and watermelon and tap dancing, too?

:sarcasm:

[pnwmom]

60. On top of everything else, Biden's comments were blatantly sexist.

Two African American women have run for President. Shirley Chisholm was perhaps not good-looking enough to suit Biden. But why wouldn't Carol Moseley Braun, who ran in 2004, have been considered a mainstream (articulate, clean, good-looking) candidate?

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/Presidential_Elections/Presidential_Candidates_Women.html

Shirley Chisholm, 1972: The first black woman to run for president, Chisholm ran as a Democrat and received more than 150 votes at the Democratic National Convention. She was also the first black woman to serve in Congress; New York sent her to the House of Representatives in 1968. George McGovern won the Democratic nomination that year and lost to the incumbent, Richard M. Nixon.


_Carol Moseley Braun, 2004: The first black woman to serve in the Senate, Braun was one of 10 candidates to seek the Democratic presidential nomination in the last presidential election. Primary voters eventually tapped Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., as the nominee. He lost to George W. Bush.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=Carol+Moseley+braun&btnG=Search+Images

[Milo_Bloom]

61. You really don't understand?

It isn't what he said about Obama, it is inherent insult to others.

"who is articulate and bright and clean"

Let's take "clean" out for a second, since people are assigning different interpretations.

"articulate and bright"


Carol Moseley Braun is VERY BRIGHT and VERY ARTICULATE. "clean"... Her term was unfortunately marred by financing scandals, however, if I remember right, it was all much ado about nothing and she was eventually, entirely cleared, so she would be "clean"

I don't agree with, well, ANY of his positions, but Alan Keyes is very bright and incredibly articulate. He is also somewhat "clean", in that the biggest scandel I know of against him was him paying himself from his own campaign money.. but then I never followed him too closely, so I am unsure if there are other skeletons in his closet, but as far as skeletons go, that wasn't a huge one.


Jesse Jackson is certainly bright. He has a nasty habit of mumbling, so I guess articulate doesn't apply AND at the time he ran for president, he was clean (all the scandel stuff didn't break until years later).

Al Sharpton. He is articulate, I'll give him that.


The problem with that Biden said is that he decided to paint ALL AFRICAN AMERICAN CANDIDATES with one brush stroke... which, at the end of the day, is the essence of prejudice. It shows a real lack of respect for the people who came before Obama, who helped pave the way for him to run... It's condescending, rude and basically unattractive and helps show why Biden isn't fit for this job.

[FrenchieCat]

62. The list of the bright and articulate in the Black world is long, long, long......

and as far as "maintream" goes, that word doesn't mean a thing!

[Karenina]

203. IIRC my "Official Codeword Dictionary"

says it means: acceptable to the dominant culture i.e. causing no fear or offense.

[NYCGirl]

64. Do you really think Keyes is bright? I think he's a nutcake. NT

[Milo_Bloom]

66. Being a nutcake, doesn't mean he isn't bright.

Just because I believe (well, kinda feel I know) his positions are WRONG, doesn't mean he isn't bright.

If you have ever watched him in a debate, you see just how bright and articulate he is... doesn't make him right, but he is very quick on his feet and makes his position SOUND reasonable. That is the essence of "bright".. not right, but bright.

[Ninja Jordan]

63. Becuase I have a brain?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

65. Because it implies that inarticulate, stupid, and corrupt is

the norm for African-Americans. As such, it reveals an underlying racism. There are plenty of articulate, bright, uncorrupt African-Americans, some of whom are even politicians. It's not as if Obama is the only one.

What's so hard to understand about that?

[DancingBear]

69. Here is the sad part

People here are actually RATIONALIZING this away.

"Oh, I love Joe, but..."

You are 100% correct in your assessment - anyone can see it.

If they want to, of course.

If this is what passes for progressive around here these days then we have not miles to go before we sleep, but light years.

[Madspirit]

72. Exactly Lydia!

It implies that those traits are exceptions for black people.
Madspirit

[fishwax]

186. nothing hard to understand at all

lotsa people, though, just don't want to understand when something like this comes up.

[Allyoop]

196. Exactly!

"It reveals underlying racism". I grew up in the South where black men (and that's not what they were called in the 50's) were expected to step to the street if they met a white woman on the sidewalk!

My mother told me "Don't ever be unkind to "colored people" because they can't help it". Now for the time and the place, that was enlightened, but it was also still racist because it implies there's something wrong with being "colored".

Joe has diarrhea of the mouth. He also has IMHO underlying and perhaps even unknown to him racial prejudice. It's hard to get rid of when that was the norm one grew up with. What he said about Obama indicates to me that his words of "praise" imply that these traits are unusual in black men. Maybe not, but it sounded like what my Mama said to me in the early 50's.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

74. Where has it been said or implied they're not?

[Solon]

76. Uhm, this is just a guess, but I think people are reacting to the fact that Biden DID...

imply precisely this. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Carol Mosely Braun, even Fredrick Douglass, who was the FIRST African American presidential candidate were or are all extremely bright and "articulate" though I would more precisely say that they all are above average orators compared to most politicians, in Douglass's case, one of the best orators, out of damned near all Presidential candidates in American history, period.

[wyldwolf]

78. then you're misinformed

Biden gave several qualification to Obama - bright, articulate, mainstream, and clean (free of corruption.)

You cannot say with a straight face that Jackson and Sharpton or Alan Keyes qualify on all of those as Obama does. Wait... YOU probably can!

[Solon]

80. Keyes is more out of the mainstream than Jackson...

And Jackson is more middle of the road. Besides, his problems were by and large personal, not much worse than Bill Clinton's indiscretions. Besides, I don't even know what Biden means by "clean", its ambiguous at best.

[wyldwolf]

85. We're not talking about Bill Clinton.

It is about the few African-Americans who have been serious contenters for the presidency. And it is clear what Biden DID NOT mean by "clean." No US Senator would tell a reported he thought black people had poor hygiene. And we do know "clean" is used to mean free of baggage, corruption, etc.

Look it up.

[DancingBear]

81. Keep digging

You got nowhere to go but down.

[wyldwolf]

86. keep dancing! Have you seen the latest on this from Biden and Obama?

[DancingBear]

110. and farther down you go!

We're gonna need a much bigger shovel, I fear.

And a headlamp for evening work, as you show no signs of slowing down.

[Milo_Bloom]

89. Still ignoring Carol Moseley Braun I see...

[wyldwolf]

90. you see wrong. I address her earlier in the thread

and she's hardly clean.

http://www.realchange.org/moseley.htm

[pnwmom]

104. That's a muckraking site. That forgets to mention she was exonerated

after lengthy investigations by the Federal Election Commission and the Bush Justice Department.

[wyldwolf]

122. ...that quotes legitimate sources

[pnwmom]

143. And leaves out the most important information -- that she was exonerated.

[Guaranteed]

175. Except, that's not what he meant. "[C]lean and a nice-looking guy."

Sorry, bub. He meant clean as in "takes a shower on a daily basis."

[pnwmom]

100. You're still not responding to the fact

that he also insulted Carol Moseley Braun.

[wyldwolf]

124. ...who was corrupt

[pnwmom]

150. The Federal Elections Commission and the Justice Department, under

Bush, both completely exonerated her. If there was any real dirt, the Bush administration would have been happy to expose it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

84. Newsflash! No one thinks most whites are articulate or bright!

Not even fucking close! So calling ANYONE articulate and bright are high praise. There is no other way to put it.

On edit: Okay, yes, I'm sure some assholes do think most whites are articulate and bright. I'm most certain Senator Biden is not one of them, even as low an opinion of him as I have.

[Solon]

93. Well, there is one thing for sure, Biden isn't that bright or articulate. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

97. How can he be? His shoe size and IQ match. (nt)

[Madspirit]

71. Why?

Why couldn't he just say that Obama is articulate? Why did race come into it? We all know the race of Obama. Every person I know, of all colors, found it bizarrely racist and offensive and stupid.
Madspirit

[lojasmo]

75. Well, it's an ignorant lie, for one.

Carol mosley-braun was all of those things.

[wyldwolf]

82. not hardly

Clean?

http://www.realchange.org/moseley.htm

[pnwmom]

102. She was exonerated, after a 5 yr. investigation.

You don't think the Bush administration wanted to find something to use against the Democrats? But they couldn't, even after lengthy investigations by the Federal Election Commission and the Justice Department.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Moseley_Braun

The most damaging allegation of illegal activity came when the Federal Election Commission began investigating $249,000 in unaccounted campaign expenditures in 1993. Charges had been made that Moseley Braun and Matthews had squandered the donations on trips and other personal expenditures. Numerous allegations of misappropriation were stated in various media reports.
Following the nearly five-year investigation, on January 16, 2003, the Federal Election Commission found those allegations to be without merit. No fines or sanctions were ever levied against her or her campaign. On page 7, paragraph 2 of the Final Audit Report of the Federal Election Commission (AK007596, AR 93-32approved 5/6/96) it states: "Unless specifically discussed below, no material non-compliance was detected."
Further, the Justice Department later rejected two requests from the Internal Revenue Service to investigate Moseley Braun for criminal misappropriation of campaign funds.[c

[Solon]

131. Don't debate with wolf on this one...

She's guilty in his eyes, he has a visceral hate against her for some reason. I debated with him about her years ago.

[Karenina]

202. And Jesse Jackson is a "rabble rouser"

with a few choice adjectives. That one's downthread...

[lojasmo]

194. "Not hardly"?

I guess you missed the "ignorant" part....or perhaps you don't care.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

83. She was mainstream?

If you can find 20 people on the street, even within Washington, DC that know who Carol Mosely-Braun is beyond the fact that she ran for President, I'll concede the point. I'm highly doubtful that you can.

[beaconess]

109. Excuse me? Carol Moseley-Braun was a U.S. Senator

If that's not mainstream, what is?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

195. Okay, quick then, name all 100 Senators without using the internet.

Good luck.

[beaconess]

209. Can someone be in the mainstream only if YOU'VE heard of them?

I bet a lot more Americans know who Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are than have heard of Joe Biden - or even Barack Obama. I guess that puts them in the mainstream. And that also means that Biden was flat out wrong claiming that Obama is the first African American candidate "in the mainstream."

[pnwmom]

113. She didn't have a national following, but many candidates don't.

Any U.S. Senator is mainstream.

[lojasmo]

193. You don't think 20 people watched the Dem primary debates?

That's just foolish.

[beaconess]

108. So were Shirley Chisholm and Doug Wilder and others

[pnwmom]

115. Ah, but you see,

Biden must not have considered them to be "good looking" enough.

Mr. Hairplugs ought to know.

:sarcasm:

[zulchzulu]

87. Biden thought he was at the Greenville Country Club for a second

If he was having a couple pints at Buckley's, it would be no big deal. A couple martinis at the Greenville Country Club...eh, not a biggie. Down at the MB&A office party...whatever... Over at the P.S. DuPont High School, well...there'd be a problem.

Biden knows that the riff-raff at Wilmington High School are Fourth Street crackheads that don't even know who he is.

Delaware is a very insular place. Not too many black people are in the privileged zones, so Joe is just being a Delawarean...not one like Lynne...but like one from say, Tower Hill, who now have a McMansion in Chadds Ford.

[Infinite Hope]

88. If that's what he said, there's nothing wrong with it.

After years of rosy fallacy from the right, we begged for honesty. We get it from our own party at times and it's "too honest" for our liking, we want to hear rosy and scripted words. Get a grip and appreciate honesty when you see it. Not only is there not a single grain of racism in Biden's remarks (assuming they are as the OP said), but there's nothing wrong in any other way about what he said. It's his personal evaluation of past and current presidencial candidates and it's probably an opinion shared by most knowledgeable in politics from professors, analysts and strategists, to the general public.

[wyldwolf]

92. Thank you!

[paulk]

103. if you listen to the actual recording of the interview

which in the transcript says this -

“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

it's pretty clear that what Biden said was this:


“I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American, who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”


---------------


There's a comma.... and that changes his meaning somewhat.

[wyldwolf]

125. it changes it dramatically

[paulk]

128. well, yeah...

I was just going for a little... understatement

Since this whole thing is overblown.

[Leopolds Ghost]

169. Obama is the first mainstream African-American?

I know manstream has been used in the past to disassociate the white working class from derogatory "ethnic" interests, by implication Socialism (Jews and Eastern Europeans), Liberalism (Blacks and Hispanics) etc. But this is a whole new level.

It's good to see Biden (mostly) apologized. The folks defending his statement can stop now...

[Bill McBlueState]

198. a comma?

If the meaning depends on how long he paused between "African-American" and "who," maybe he should have thought a little harder before saying something that was so easily misheard.

[paulk]

206. it wasn't misheard, it's very, very clear in the recording of the

interview - that there is a comma between those words.

And that comma changes his statement dramatically.

How can any candidate guard him or herself against this ?

I could care less about Biden, when it comes right down to it. But this sort of thing - where any statement any candidate (and especially a Democratic candidate) makes can be portrayed in a way that twists the meaning - by a media more interested in creating controversy than in reporting facts, that's what bothers me. And that so many immediately jump the bandwagon without questioning the media, and it's motivations before the candidate's, is even more worrisome.

[paulk]

207. it wasn't "misheard" - it's very clear in the recording that there

is a comma between those two words, and that comma dramatically changes the meaning.

How can any candidate protect him/herself against this?

I could really care less about Biden - what bothers about this incident - is that all our candidates our vulnerable to this sort of thing - where any statement can be twisted by a media more interested in creating controversy than in reporting facts. It is also troublesome that so many are instantly willing to jump on the bandwagon, before questioning the motivations of the press, and without questioning the motivations of the candidate.

[CTLawGuy]

199. yeah

It's reasonable to assume "mainstream" means "has a legitimate shot at winning" becuase that is true about Obama. If the comma is there, then Biden didn't mean to insult black people.

I'm not a huge Biden fan, but seriously people. I give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[Joey Liberal]

130. It helps the republiNazis n/t

[AtomicKitten]

133. It would be okay if

in return Obama pointed out that Biden would NOT be the FIRST a-hole candidate for president.

[The Count]

134. "electable" is a BS word. means "MSM approved".

I have a problem because it was patronizing, just like * 's comment ("articulate and attractive) was. I also hate when they talk about Hillary's hair.

[Bjorn Against]

135. Dumb statement, but it pales in comparision to some of the other statements about Obama

When you look at all the attacks on Obama's name and the suggestions that he may be a terrorist just because his father was a Muslim you can see the amount of racism Obama has to deal with. And lets not even get into Rush Limbaugh's "Halfrican-American" comments.

I am not a big supporter of Obama for President, but I am sickened by the way he has been treated. Biden's comment was stupid, but it was certainly more innocent than some of the other things that have been said.

On edit: To make it clear I am absolutely not defending Biden, I am just pointing out that there has been a large amount of racist talk during this campaign and for the right-wing to focus on Biden and ignore Fox News and Rush Limbaugh shows a great deal of hypocrisy.

[outofbounds]

136. I like Obama,

The man speaks well. If that is what articulate means then it is a compliment. I take that to mean instead of trying to sound cool or stylish he is intent on sounding smart, educated and proper. Bright is generally a compliment as well, after all that is why a person stresses to be articulate, IMHO. Clean seems to be a insult to a lot of folks. I guess it could be. But IMHO I think he really meant to say clean cut. Clean cut meaning sharply dressed, close hair cut and neat in appearance. Obama stands out in all the areas.
Biden paid him a compliment, he essentially was saying he thinks Obama is more likable than the people who have ran before him.
What Biden doesn't understand is by saying African American or Indian American he is adding racial tones to his statement. And by doing so, he insults the other people of that ethnicity. even if he didn't mean to. Just my thoughts.

[pnwmom]

141. Yes, he did mean to pay Biden a compliment. And yes, in the way he did it,

he insulted other African Americans. . .and proved that speaking well is not one of his own strong points.

By the way, Biden has clarified that what he meant by "clean" was "fresh and new." Jesse Jackson's response was that next time, he should say "fresh and new."

[outofbounds]

156. Ahhh Thanks for the clarification. nm

[Leopolds Ghost]

170. Do people with a black accent not sound "smart educated and proper"?

A white person from the south would not want to be told that they sound
"the first person from your family who sounds smart, educated and proper"

[outofbounds]

197. A large, very large group people

don't take the time to articulate the words they use properly. I am one of them. I don't choose to take the time when I speak to be considered articulate. As a white person from the south, it does not belittle me if someone gets complimented for speaking or dressing better than me. I feel good for the complimented person rather than taking offense that I don't meet the same standard. As a matter of fact the person doing the complimenting is speaking to me anyway. I find it self centered to take offense at someone else's compliment. Biden however has a way of pissing people off on a regular basis without even knowing it. He grew up and lived part of his life when white people didn't think twice about using words that would openly offend today. By that I mean those words were the norm. He not only has had to change his vocabulary, but his views of all ethnicities as well. I try not to find fault in people, it generally exposes mine.

Hey Outofbounds, you are the first person from your family who sounds smart, educated and proper. Outofbounds friends families response would likely be, Yea he wurked pertty hard, were proud of em.

[Hard_Work]

137. Yeah, he really is

a credit to his race, huh?:sarcasm:

This is generally what white folks mean when they say how "articulate" and/or "bright" we are. Fuck that.

[Leopolds Ghost]

171. People don't realize that this sort of thing became patronizing 100 years ago.

[dsc]

138. because it was assine

First, Doug Wilder. Articulate, mainstream, and scandal free when he ran in 1991 and 1992.

Second, people who run for President tend to be articulate, tend to be clean and tend to be mainstream. Are you kidding me? Every person who isn't a moron knows that when you call a black person articulate you are usually doing so because you don't expect him or her to have been articulate.

[pnwmom]

139. Biden himself disagrees with you about what he meant.

He says he meant "fresh and new."

And he has issued an apology.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/politics/index.ssf?/base/politics-8/117028884871580.xml&storylist=electionmi

The six-term Delaware lawmaker, who has said for months he'd be a candidate in 2008, formally establish his presidential committee Wednesday and launched a campaign Web site. It's the second presidential bid for Biden, who pursued the White House in 1988.

But the talkative Biden spent the better part of the day trying to quell the furor over his remarks. He was peppered with questions from reporters in an afternoon conference call, and late in the day, issued a terse statement, saying: "I deeply regret any offense my remark in the New York Observer might have caused anyone. That was not my intent and I expressed that to Senator Obama."

SNIP

Biden told reporters that he'd used the word "clean" to describe Obama as "fresh and new," and that the choice of words was not meant to disparage other black candidates who'd run for president in the past, such as civil rights leaders Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

SNIP

"I didn't take Senator Biden's comments personally, but obviously they were historically inaccurate," Obama said. "African-American presidential candidates like Jesse Jackson, Shirley Chisholm, Carol Moseley Braun and Al Sharpton gave a voice to many important issues through their campaigns."

[wyldwolf]

145. except he doesn't

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3088943&mesg_id=3088943

[pnwmom]

153. "Clean as a whistle" means "very clean."

It doesn't mean "corruption free." Whistles aren't ever corrupt.

Why don't you take him at his word? He said "clean as a whistle," which means very clean. And he said that he meant "fresh and new." He NEVER said that he meant Obama was "corruption free."

And he wouldn't thank you for trying to convince people that that's what he meant because it would sound as if he was disparaging other African Americans. Whereas "fresh and new" just means that he hasn't been on the national scene for very long.

[wyldwolf]

190. according to the dictionary I quoted, you're wrong

[outofbounds]

219. Yes I saw that after you posted

The only reason I thought he may have meant clean cut is because Ive heard it in my youth. To just say clean is very condescending I feel. If I remember correctly Rev. Jackson single handedly got the POW in Kosovo released and all these people that ran before him are good outstanding citizens. I hope Biden can realize that people have feelings and be more sensitive to them. I wish him well.

[EndElectoral]

142. Would this be compared to Kerry's gaffe? Frankly, BS. Chris Dodd announce and no one covers it!

[pnwmom]

144. I've been wondering that myself. n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

159. Are you a DUer who thinks Kerry's statement about Bush's level of ed. was inexcusable

But Biden's statement is just fine?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

What an amazing combination that would be.

[Leopolds Ghost]

151. Wow, what a historically ignorant statement.

I didn't know there were still people out there who didn't know anything about the history of African Americans in public life (Biden did not specify candidates!) and denigrates figures like Frederick Douglass (who convinced Lincoln to end slavery), Shirley Chisholm, A. Philip Randolph (of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters) or Jesse Jackson, MLK's right hand man.

Why is it that trumad's post was deleted but it's OK for people
to make broad-brush statements on DU about how blacks have no history
they can be proud of in public life -- no history *you* were taught?

[wyldwolf]

189. Is it now? What makes your reply so totally ignorant is...

...is your complete lack of reading comprehension.

Biden wasn't discussing "the history of African Americans in public life," he was discussing presidential candidates and, in reference to Obama, Aftican-American presidential candidates.

Jesse Jackson? A racist hush-money paying rabble rouser.

[Karenina]

200. SOP. Here's the drill.

Whenever there is a "discussion" about highly-charged racial issues, the bigots and stealth racists swarm. A few will appoint themselves "King (usually) Bee" and proceed to pontificate to all comers, of whatever melanin level, who may be a wee bit more in tune with the subtexts and/or have "skin in the game," that their concerns and perceptions are just so much pfiffle. As long as the King Bees control the thread it stays open. If however it is perceived that those who find the biases egregious are overwhelming the Alpha Bee, the thread will be locked as flamebait. This accounts for the dearth of posters such as ourselves. It's depressing. Many simply tire of dealing with it... :shrug:

[fishwax]

218. That's great analysis and insight

:yourock:

[beaconess]

223. Damn - that's good!

Another interesting aspect of what you're talking about is how, when we Alpha Bees call out someone for making a racially insensitive or racist remark, the King Bees circle the wagons around the perpetrator and jump all over us for "stirring up trouble" or "making a big deal out of nothing," and, my personal favorite "playing the race card" and insist that they didn't mean anything offensive and that it is OUR fault that we're so offended. "How dare you call X a 'racist'!!!" even when no such accusation has been made.

The funny thing is that they are so much more upset by the reaction to the insensitive remark than they are by the insensitive remark in the first place and think it's perfectly reasonable for them to have THEIR shorts all in a bunch because we've offended them by having the temerity to call someone out without seeing the irony in their smug self-righteousness and certainty that their sense of personal offense was the result of something someone did to them while any offense that we feel is self-inflicted.

It's a fascinating dynamic, isn't it?

[Karenina]

201. SOP. Here's the drill:

Whenever there is a "discussion" about highly-charged racial issues, the bigots and stealth racists swarm. A few will appoint themselves "King (usually) Bee" and proceed to pontificate to all comers, of whatever melanin level, who may be a wee bit more in tune with the subtexts and/or have "skin in the game," that their concerns and perceptions are just so much pfiffle. As long as the King Bees control the thread it stays open. If however it is perceived that those who find the biases egregious are overwhelming the Alpha Bee, the thread will be locked as flamebait. This accounts for the dearth of posters such as ourselves. It's depressing. Many simply tire of dealing with it... :shrug:

[Leopolds Ghost]

157. The obvious connotation is that he is not one of those "dark-skinned, sweaty preacher types"

Don't believe me? Try being dark-skinned with any sort of accent or a willingness to raise your voice. Run for office in a big city and see how many people of lighter hue (including many light-skinned black leaders -- there is an assumed class distinction there in many cities) make all kinds of veiled statements about you being a "loose cannon" and "trifling".

[Bullet1987]

166. Joe Biden...

...Must not have been watching much TV recently if he think Obama is the first mainstream Black person to sound articulate and clean. He's basically saying all other mainstream Black people of the past and current generation are illiterant and dumb. I can name off 50 mainstream Black people that of the past 50 years that could be considered articulate and clean.

What an asshole statement to make!

[madfloridian]

162. Wow, wyldwolf....what can I say?

That is just so arrogant.

[wyldwolf]

191. I know what I can say back to you

... as usual coming from you, that is so ignorant.

[BootinUp]

168. Its one of those 10 foot pole things... n/t

[DemGa]

172. What's worse, Biden's supposed unconscious racial bias

or Obama's nonsense reply? I can't say for sure.

[beaconess]

176. You can't? Wow.

[DemGa]

178. That's right

Pretending to know what Biden means is silly. And is Obama saying Al Sharpton is mainstream? That seems historically innacurate.

[TankLV]

183. I really don't - this is just another excuse for the circular firing squad...

Biden has said some pretty bad things in the past, but this isn't one of them...

People are DETERMINED to take what he said the and make something out of NOTHING...

God forbid he should comliment the guy!

[IndianaGreen]

184. So Shirley Chisholm was inarticulate and unclean, wow!

We have always known about the homophobia that lays under the surface of the DLC, now we must add racism.

[fujiyama]

187. Who are you to decide what African Americans get offended at?

You are apparently not aware of the use of the word "articulate" in a patronizing and condescending manner describing a black person. It's been used to insinuate that it's very rare and unusual.

Did Biden mean to sound racist? Likely not. But it came across insensitive and idiotic.

And I'm confused what he meant by "clean" and "bright"? Were all the previous blacks that ran unfit and corrupt?

[Eurobabe]

188. Not the first time Biden has opened mouth inserted foot.

"Mr. Biden’s comments also focused new attention on remarks he made about Indians last year, when he said, “you cannot go to a 7-Eleven or a Dunkin’ Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking."

Is this an acceptable comment? I think not.

People stop saying that the Obama comment was OK. It wasn't.

Biden shoots from the hip, he needs to think before he opens his mouth.

[paparush]

210. "Clean Cut" "Clean Cut" He fucking meant to say "Clean Cut"

Jeeezus Peeezus!

[beaconess]

211. You might want to tell Biden what he meant - he says he meant "fresh and new"

And what's so new about a black candidate being "clean-cut." Jesse Jackson, Carol Moseley-Braun, Doug Wilder, Al Sharpton, Alan Keyes, etc. were all "clean-cut." So if that's what he meant, he really put his foot in it.

[Karenina]

215. White denial is some DEEP SHIT!

:rofl:

[lojasmo]

212. Biden says he meant "fresh"....just as stupid, IMO. N/T

[LanternWaste]

216. My grandfather once told me

My grandfather once told me that if you look hard enough, you can find an insult anywhere-- even in places where they don't exist.

Wide old curmedgeon, my grandad...

[Karenina]

217. Especially if you're a member

of the dominant culture whose interests are served by denial.

[cadmium]

221. I dont want Biden to censor himself because a media flap

he didnt' say anything off base at all. Obama has been a senator only two years -- therefore is relatively clean. We moan and groan about the media but keep buying into their blown up pseudo issues.

[Labors of Hercules]

224. Depends on who you exclude, and whether you say it with respect or with surprise.

For example:
Call me the first bright, clean, articulate redneck in mainstream politics and I sure as hell won't get mad at you,
but John Edwards might.

Anyway, some people need to lighten up and others need to read some Dale Carnegie.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

225. Lookout: The backlash could be Obama's

If we are still discussing this in yet another thread, I fear the neocons/Fox News will jump at every opportunity to turn Obama into a sacred cow.