The Enemy:

[WilliamPitt]

Poll question: The Enemy:

.

[Mass_Liberal]

I'd say both but....

the obvious one is the GOP.

[Mass_Liberal]

1. sorry

repeat

[boxster]

2. The scary thing is that the DNC/DLC votes aren't necessarily...

Freepers.

Sad.

[Atlant]

32. This much I know for certain (and personally). (NT)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

63. Of course the DNC and DLC are totally different organizations

with different goals. The DNC is a strictly party-building operation whose goal is to get Democrats elected. The DLC and "New Democrat Network" is an organization designed to elect conservative and centrist and pro-Corporate Dems into office.

[ixion]

3. Both?

Neither one of these groups have been our friends in the past three years, IMHO.

[enki23]

4. you should know better

than to pose such a blatently false bifurcation.

[WilliamPitt]

5. I guess I don't

:)

Hi Enki!!!!!!

[boxster]

10. What's so false about it?

:shrug:

[Terwilliger]

6. Is the DNC the same as the DLC?

I don't think so.

[Terwilliger]

15. I mean, it was the DLC guy who equated Kucinich to Rummy, right?

"Are Dennis Kucinich and Donald Rumsfeld secret allies?"

Am I supposed to like the DLC?

[polpilot]

46. How could a true democrat 'like' the pro-war DLC. Repubs like 'em.

Dean '04...

[Armstead]

7. False Dichotomy

You should have had a third choice:

GOP is enemy, but DLC is a big problem too.



The enemy of my enemy is my friend. But that doesn't mean he is a good friend.

[Terwilliger]

17. More than that

I don't think of the GOP as an enemy compared to the DLC. At least the GOP is up-front about its conservative goals. The DLC wants to say they're really Democrats, when they're just conservative-lite.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. 'Zactly.

[jonnyblitz]

90. yup. exactly.

of course that concept will just go right over the heads of the people who will gasp in horror that someone would vote for the DLC as the greater enemy. :shrug:

[no name no slogan]

103. How about this: DLC = boil on your butt, GOP = brain tumor (nt)

[Goldom]

8. Over a third of you

Think the DNC is WORSE than the GOP? Where have you been living?

[Atlant]

12. In a country where "The enabler of my enemy is my enemy too!" (NT)

[Mairead]

38. "the DNC is WORSE than the GOP?"

That's an artifact of Will's formatting.

In truth, we must learn to ignore labels. Anyone can wear any label; it's no guide at all to what's going on inside the wearer, and when we tell ourselves it is, we might as well be turning off our brains.

Whether someone's on our side is all that should matter to us, and the only reliable way to detect that is to watch what they do rather than what they say. Actions hardly ever lie.

[polpilot]

47. U.S.

Dean '04...

[BL_Zebub]

67. I've been living in Hell

But for the last three years, I've observed a number of alleged Democrats supporting various parts of the Bush agenda and displaying absolutely no intestinal fortitude whatsoever, with notable exceptions such as Dr Dean, Congressman Kucinich, and Senator Byrd. And for that the DLC and their influence in the DNC are definitely to blame.

[dogman]

82. Zell Miller is a super delegate in the DNC.

So you tell me wassup?

[DenverDem]

9. The power eliteists

who control both.

[redqueen]

14. I voted GOP/CCC, but I like your answer better! n/t

[deutsey]

19. That's my vote too

Corporatist elites, and they exert control over each of the choices offered in the poll, are the main enemy.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

11. I can live with the DNC/DLC...

But not necessarily like everything about the arrangement. On the other hand, the continued future of the republic is at stake with the GOP/CCC, as presently constituted.

There is the rub, Will.

[goodhue]

13. not mutually exclusive

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. CCC: Council of Conservative Citizens or Christian/Conservative Coalition?

???

[JVS]

18. woo-hoo 50-50!

[phillybri]

20. Why is this thing so close??? Why are we such fucking cannibals???

:grr:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

21. Now there...

Is the real question that needs asking!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

24. Dean hangover

"woo hoo". :eyes:

[oasis]

75. DU= .0001% of electorate woo hoo

[Atlant]

93. Actually, DU is more like 0.04% of the electorate.

Surprisingly large, but the problem is that we're very-much a
self-selected sample of the electorate.

Atlant

[JVS]

26. Ask Dennis "Donald Rumsfeld" Kucinich. He's smart.

Maybe he can tell you why there is is one part of the party that would rather work with Bush than with liberals

[redqueen]

31. No kidding

This should not be a shock, people.

Many view the DLC's influence as one of the major reasons the Democratic Party has withered this past decade. Go figure.

[Atlant]

42. Winning the Presidency in '92 ruined the Democratic Party.

Winning the Presidency in '92 ruined the Democratic Party. They
drew the wrong conclusions from that victory, believing that it
had something to do with their shift to the Right rather than
the fact that Bush the First was an attrocious President and Bill
Clinton was an extremely charismatic candidate.

And since that time, the DLC strategy has cost the Democrats
almost every contested election for Senate, Congress, State House,
and Governor.

I had hoped the losees in 2000 and 2002 would show them something,
but it didn't. They still want to run on a rightist platfrom. But
that's something the GOP will *ALWAYS* be able to do better.

Atlant

[liberalmike27]

45. Good Insight

This post was spot-on, as the Brits say.

It wasn't even his sexual affairs, but the giving in to so many Republican platforms, rather than choosing to fight, NAFTA, GATT, Welfore reform as it was called. Not fighting against ridiculous mandatory drug sentencing, instead embracing it. Not fighting for media fairness, more campaign finance reforms.

I've read many-a-writer who say Clinton was right of Nixon, and I agree. The real damage comes from the confusion of not being able to tell one from the other, the damage of corporate money replacing the union money that was once a Democratic campaign staple. It'll likely get worse before it gets better. Seems like Republican greed has to absolutely shut the system down by faulty money distribution once in a while, and we are heading into that cycle, incomes have been dropping for decades, and not surprisingly, our economy, and the worlds' economy is suffering. Funny how no one notices that all these salary cuts, and job-moving to places where 1/20 of the wages are paid, serves to destroy the buy-side of the market. But greed clouds the eyes of some of the wealthy, apparently the same that maintain control on all of the media.

The good news? That poll shows a lot of people are waking up. I suspect if an election was held between a Democrat, and a Green, it'd be this close too. Truth is, the Democratic Party has been straying from its mostly working constituents for some time now.

[redqueen]

53. They will wish they'd learned in 2000 or 2002

Whoever wins in November, I would anticipate a massive defection of time and money away from the Democratic Party after bush is gone. Especially in local elections.

[PAMod]

98. Amen.

Clinton was Clinton. I doubt anyone else could have pulled off those victories.

We are killing ourselves by trying to repeat his electoral magic, parrotting his views.

[polpilot]

51. Maybe going to the DLC site before one votes would be educational?

Dean '04

[Atlant]

29. This same question could have been asked several months ago. (NT)

[cosmicdot]

22. whomever is at the top of 'the octopus'

plus, corporate mismanagement of our society, priorities, health ... lives-in-general ...

both "the octopus" and corporatists are represented across the board -- from GE to DLC -- it pays for evil to play on both sides of the fence

[CWebster]

25. no difference

concerning the way they view us.

[BurtWorm]

27. GOP is the Enemy with a capital E. DLC is the enemy within.

They collaborate too often.

[JVS]

28. The question is: which do you need to take out first?

[CWebster]

34. they can string you along FOREVER

by constantly promising over the next hill.

[Walt Starr]

35. That's where I've found a comfortable compromise

If the DNC/DLC looks like it stands a chance of defeating the GOP, I'll vote DNC/DLC.

If not, I go third party.

Either way, my vote is not wasted.

[JVS]

40. That isn't a bad way to do it

[Walt Starr]

55. Yep, I;m there if I'm needed and they can just throw me away when they

don't need me any more.

It's sorta how the Democratic Party has treated the base for about two decades now.

[Atlant]

36. I argue that we won't beat the GOP until we've beaten the DLC first. (NT)

[polpilot]

52. Exactly. People need to quit posting and review the pro-war DLC site.

Dean '04

[DU GrovelBot]

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[nancyharris]

33. This will make for an interesting message board this fall

If Senator Kerry has to fight the whole GOP and half of the Democratic Party.

[Atlant]

39. No. The rules here auto-ban most of us once the nominee is chosen. (NT)

[corporatewhore]

85. the rules would probably have banned amy goodman in92 if du had beenaround

[Terwilliger]

43. just proves that w/o unity you've got nothing

Frankly, now it's up to Kerry.

[VelmaD]

37. Oh Good Grief!

I cannot believe how many people have voted for the DNC/DLC. Get some perspective people. :eyes:

And as for you Will. I don't know whether to paddle your butt or giggle maniacally at the shit you stir up. *shakes head in fond bemusement*

[Robb]

41. Love, Will. Love!

Don't hate! LOOOVE!! :silly:

[rucky]

44. 50 people here need to spend some more time in GD:1

5 minutes in that forum & you'll remember who the enemy is.

[eileen_d]

48. Politely, I say: "I concur with your analysis"

Less politely I say: "No shit!"

[helleborient]

49. You left out the corrupting power of wealth and personal privilege...

That's where my vote would be.

[John_H]

50. Since the answer depends on who the responder is this poll is

more useful in determining who DUers are, not who the enemy is.

[HuskerDem]

54. All of the above

[IrateCitizen]

56. Militarism, mass-consumerism and rapacious greed are the enemy

Those are the true enemies in my book. After that, anyone who his helping to perpetuate these forces is an enabler and facilitator of the enemy.

In this sense, the GOP is the greatest enabler/facilitator, followed not far behind by the DLC/DNC. But I think that William Greider summed it up best in his most recent column in The Nation, describing the likely character of a Kerry Presidency:

If Kerry wins the White House, a disenchanted campaign strategist told me, "it will be like electing the editorial board of the New York Times: totally establishment--but a whole lot better than The Weekly Standard."

I may be an anti-establishment idealist, but I'm certainly not stupid. I can recognize the difference between the NYT editorial board and the Weekly Standard.

[bambo53]

57. We already know what the RNC is capable of,

it's the DNC & the DLC that disappoints me and frightens me, and makes me feel insecure. They're not communicating any sense of direction in how they intend to handle the GOP Juggernaut. As in, the House, the Senate, the presidency, the courts, and especially the MEDIA! The Republicans seem to control the publics opinion, since they've bought up all the airwaves, and when the Democratic leadership does have the opportunity to opine, they appear weak and timid and afraid of what might happen to them if they speak out.

They need a James Carvel approach to strongly explain their positions and step on some toes, just to let the other side know they can bite real hard when threatened.

They also need to reassure me they're not cashing in before the whole shit house goes up in flames.

[The Magistrate]

58. There Can Be No Question, Mr. Pitt, The Leading Enemy Is The Republicans

The external enemy must be defeated first, and all power must be concentrated on that goal. Intramural faction fights weaken the possiblity of defeating the external enemy, which draws great benefit from the disunity and sectarianism of the left. When the external enemy is defeated, then we can clean our own house.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Atlant]

59. Given the vote as it stands, apparently there *CAN* be a question. (NT)

[IrateCitizen]

64. There are plenty of question as to the "true enemy", Sir.

For example, I personally view the Republicans as the greatest ENABLERS/FACILITATORS of the true enemy. See the following post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=311072&mesg_id=311485&page=

To believe that the Republicans are the end-all, be-all of all problems we face is a serious and ultimately dangerous delusion, one we would do well to dispel from our thought processes and instead look at things in a much more long-term perspective.

[The Magistrate]

70. It Is Essential, Sir

To concentrate on one enemy at a time. If there is more than one foe, it is essential to disable or destroy the strongest first; the weaker then will crumble of its own accord. Only if by striking the weaker first can the stronger be more effectively assailed is there any point to doing so. In this circumstance, it seems to me there is no such benefit to be gained by concentrating fire against the centerist elements within the Democratic Party. To the degree these have power, it is only because of the clear power of the external enemy, the true standard-bearer of reaction. This force has its power quite independently of these centerist elements, and destroying these centerist elements would not weaken it one whit. Indeed, doing so would tend to consolidate its strength, by increasing the degree to which it could recruit from the centerist elements among the people of the country.

There is a good deal to the view that corporate power is the deepest enemy of the people, and that corporate power influences both major political parties. The fact remains that corporate power prefers the Republican Party, and that the most reactionary and exploitative elements of corporate power align exclusively with that party. It is my view that, from the standpoint of the people's material benefit, and the good of the country and the world, even less reactionary and exploitative elements ought to be prefered to more reactionary and exploitative elements. There are factions within corporate power as well, and these ought to be turned to our advantage.

It seems essential to me to destroy the forces of cultural reaction in our country as the first priority of political action, for it is these which lend the worst elements of corporate power mass strength. The Republican Party is the undisputed standard-bearer of cultural reaction, and for that reason, it is the target of highest priority to me. Its resounding defeat can demoralize the forces of cultural reaction, and drive them back to the kennels and sties where they belong. Defeat of cultural reaction opens the way to defeat of corporate power through the electoral system, by forcing it back on its true minority status in a majoritarian system. Money is a power only in so far as it can procure bodies willing to fight for it, after all, and it is the delusions of cultural reaction that make this possible, for those under the sway of these are willing to fight against their own material interests for nebulous totems, that money can convince them are the most important things.

"Men, steel, bread and gold are the sinews of war. Gold and bread may procure steel and men; men and steel can always acquire bread and gold."

[IrateCitizen]

76. It's funny -- I basically agreed with what you just wrote

I was simply pointing out the danger in characterizing the Republicans as the sole enemy, and that they are only a symptom of a much deeper problem.

I thought that much would have been clear from the William Greider quote I cited in my previous post. I'll put it here again in case you missed it:

If Kerry wins the White House, a disenchanted campaign strategist told me, "it will be like electing the editorial board of the New York Times: totally establishment--but a whole lot better than The Weekly Standard."

Like I said -- I may be an idealist, but I'm not stupid. I recognize the difference between the NYT editorial board and that of the Weekly Standard. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I really LIKE the NYT board, or think that it comes terribly close to representing anything other than the establishment.

[The Magistrate]

77. A Pleasure To Be In Agreement With You, Sir

Even a long range goal must be approached by steps, and the things near to hand must be done first.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. There are some really confused people here.

[bambo53]

61. What?

Are you people telling me that the DNC and the DLC don't believe in the same values as we do? Or are you trying to explain to me that since they've lost their financial base with the unions they've become corporate whores too?

We can't do shit without money, or public outcry

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

62. What's the difference again?

Hard to tell sometimes.

[LynneSin]

65. Sorry, how can anyone NOT pick the GOP and Christian Conservatives??

:shrug:

I mean it was one or the other....Geez!!!

[Atlant]

68. Sometimes, an "ally" who will stab you in the back is more dangerous...

Sometimes, an "ally" who will stab you in the back is more dangerous
than the enemy you face openly.

After years and years of sad experience, lots of us can now tell the
difference between a pat on the back and a dagger between the ribs.

Atlant

[Redneck Socialist]

73. Exactly

At least the Repuglicans are upfront about being soul raping scumbags. The DLC collaborators have a proven track record of betrayal and that they try and pretend to be on our side only makes them all the more vile.

[redqueen]

66. A friendly suggestion for anyone who finds these results surprising

Buy this. Read it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060548533/ref=pd_ts_b_13/002-1359915-2086417?v=glance&s=books&n=1000#product-details

Here you will find answers to questions like

Which candidate was paid by a pharmaceutical firm to give speeches while running for the Senate?

Who turned the Homeland Security Act into a bonanza for the biotech industry?

Which candidate proposed 32 separate tax breaks for big businesses that support his campaign?

Who is the "go-to guy" for the insurance industry?

[IrateCitizen]

69. I know the answer to the last question!!!

His name begins with "J", and ends with "oe Lieberman". :D

I heard Charles Lewis say this on an interview on Democracy Now. In fact, I believe that the good Senator from CT was referred to as the "go-to" guy for both the insurance AND accounting industries.

[redqueen]

72. This book should be required reading.

Democracy my ass - this is a corporatocracy!

[IndianaGreen]

71. I think some people are rebelling against the endless polls

that remind me of the loyalty oaths we had to take not too long ago.

This poll is as meaningless as many others we have seen in DU for the past several weeks.

I seriously doubt that anyone in here would vote for George W. Bush. They may not vote, but if they do vote, they won't vote for little Hitler in the White House.

Now, Barney is another story!

:evilgrin:

[RetroLounge]

74. GOP is definitely THE Enemy

The DLC just needs an Enema to flush the crap out of it...

[Edge]

78. They both are...but the GOP is much worse.

[Perky]

79. Damn this is scary

n/t

[dweller]

80. .

dp

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Based on the poll results...ourselves

[The Magistrate]

87. Indeed, Ma'am

As old Pogo Possum noted: "We have met the enemy, and he is us..."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[curse10]

92. Once again, nsma

you hit the nail on the head

[Darranar]

83. The GOP...

The DLC can be dealt with later.

[corporatewhore]

84. i didntvote becausethe enemy is neoliberalismand social/econmoic injustice

which is rampant in both parties

[gate of the sun]

86. both

anyone who is not looking out for the best for the American people and others as well is the enemy...I don't know why people like that continue to be in charge of what happens to so many people. HOw that can happen in a republic is beyond me. People have too much trust in the government and too much apathy in general. The world could be different Dammit if people would only give it a chance and quit playing politics by these made up rules.

[Gringo]

88. It's the GOP, but...

We need a DRC, a Democratic Restoration Council. One that will embody the traditional values the party was all about in its heyday. Long-term, I feel the DLC is a sure-fire road to extinction for our party. The DRC would champion organized labor, fight against outsourcing & foreign job relocation, press for progressive taxation, all that good stuff dems used to believe in.

[stickdog]

89. The corporate media and Americans' blind trust in them. (nt)

[Zynx]

91. Loaded question.

Those who voted for DNC/DLC did so because they know it is a loaded question and opposition to the GOP/CCC is just a given. I voted for the GOP just so you know.

[GumboYaYa]

95. Exactly!

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. F. Scott Fitzgerald

[Atlant]

96. Zynx correctly analyzed my vote. (NT)

[Iverson]

94. Why reduce it to one enemy?

Your choices, to the extent that they do not overlap, have an obvious hierarchy, but the seductive lure of binary oppositions could lead us astray.

[wadestock]

97. Can't be realistically voted on.....

The enemy of what?
Who represents what?

But I'll try and answer the question in the most realistic way.

Historically the GOP has been for business and the Democrats for the working man.

We live in a capitalistic society in which we weren't exactly sure where this would take us. Over time, we have learned that the system generally degrads over time. It needs constant monitoring and "tweaks". When we give too much trust to big business, and allow power and money to go to the top, business doesn't by itself work for the good of the people....it exploits the people and becomes inherently inefficient.

There is less and less belief that government can work to help tweak the system, thanks to Rush Limbaugh and other Reaganites that have instilled in the average person that the government is stealing our money. Actually, it is the capitalist system that is in a state of degradation, and it is this subtle force if anything that is "stealing us".

Democrats, by and large, are not as organized now or as coherently ideological as the right wing Reaganites that have come to power, but they are indeed NOT THE ENEMY.

THE ENEMY is not necessarily the GOP in an historical correct interpretation. What IS the enemy now specifically is the Limbaugh Reaganite right wingers that have taken power of the GOP and used it was the expressed reason to cut taxes to the rich.

This glutenous selfish behavior has no loyalty whatsoever to the United States and thus directly represents an ENEMY to this country.
In the end, it would destroy any chance that our capitalistic system has of working.

[jamesinca]

99. Shame on you Will

Asking me to choose between beelzebub and Mephistopheles.

[felonious thunk]

100. Are you fucking kidding me?

This site is a sorry reflection on the party if we think the DLC and DNC are as big a threat as the goddamn republicans. Fuck. The DLC is at best borderline irrelevant, and the DNC reflect our party

Ok, go fucking vote Nader or whoever the fuck else, because Kerry once voted one way that indicated that he wasn't a complete and utter liberal on every single issue ever, and don't ever fucking bitch about Bush again. Bush votes fucking the wrong way on every single fucking issue, but because Kerry isn't your perfect candidate, and gasp, stands to unite the centrists of the party with the lefties, he's horrible awful and the worst person ever.

That's it. Fucking christ.

[redqueen]

101. Do you know about the Progressive Policy Institute? n/t

[felonious thunk]

102. Yes, I'm well aware

I know what they do, what they stand for, and who they are. They are good Democrats, I have a friend that works there. They just have difference of opinion on some issues with us. Fine. They are allowed to, and I'm glad to be part of a party in which differences of opinion are accepted and not shouted over because they are wrong damnit wrong.

You wouldn't know it from reading this site though.