Serious question for Kerry supporters

[KaraokeKarlton]

I'm sort of curious why Kerry (and those of you who go after Dean here) is focusing on trying to catch up to Dean in NH, a state he needs to at least get a 2nd place finish in to stay in the race. He's not going to be able to catch Dean at this point and no one really expects him to. However, Clark is nipping at Kerry's heels in NH and if Clark takes second in NH, Kerry's ship instantly sinks. It seems to me that while Kerry is busy focusing on Dean, he's leaving a huge opening for Clark to sneak up and overtake him. It's been pretty much determined that it's going to be Dean vs the anti-Dean for the nomination. I think that unless Kerry starts focusing on defending himself against Clark sneaking up and stealing the anti-Dean slot, he's going to be doomed.

Although I have been VERY critical of Kerry, I'm asking this with all sincerity. I think it's a mistake for Kerry to chase someone he's not going to catch at this point if it opens him up to being knocked out by Clark.

Have any of the Kerry supporters here been thinking about this at all?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

1. Kerry will do much better in NH than anyone's expecting right now

hopefully Dean won't lose. :)

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. I've seen Clark's NH ads

and they're really good if someone is looking for a military guy. Kerry isn't running any ads that I've seen.

It's no secret that I have been vocal against Kerry. I openly admit it. However, I'm honestly being sincere and serious in this question. I really think either Kerry or Clark are going to come out as the "anti-Dean" candidate. As a result, I think the real battle for Kerry supporters (as well as Clark supporters) is going to be between Kerry and Clark to determine who will challenge Dean for the nomination. I can't be the only person thinking this.

[blm]

9. sorry, but you are the one who called Kerry

"an oozing shit polyp" so please spare us your brand of sincerity.

As tough as I am on Dean, at least I stick to political discourse and his own record.

[KaraokeKarlton]

15. Yes, I did call him something like that

He said something that I found to be less than truthful. I speak my mind, what can I say?

I'm not on here denying that I don't like Kerry. I'm asking a question about something I see in strategy that just doesn't make much sense to me.

Are you saying that this isn't something you've ever thought about at all? If it's not you really should.

Don't you think it's kind of silly to argue that I don't like Kerry when I don't deny that I don't like him? Seriously, that's one thing we agree on...that I don't like him. I don't think we need to establish that we agree on this on every thread we both happen to be posting on. :shrug:

[salin]

26. ew... what is it with folks

taking the candidate 'hatred' to the point of excrement-laden screeds? Geeeeeez. Some of this is going to be very hard to repair next summer.

[DemOutWest]

31. New Polls

From the LA Times.

Snip.

Forty-five percent of those questioned preferred Dean as the party's nominee, the same as two weeks ago. But Kerry, the Massachusetts senator, solidified his spot at No. 2, rising from 13 percentage points to 20 percentage points, within weeks of the state's Jan. 27 primary.

The poll, released Thursday by American Research Group in Manchester, N.H., shows Wesley Clark and Joe Lieberman battling for third, with the support of 8 percent and 6 percent.


Of course the polls are all different and very fluid

[KaraokeKarlton]

32. Good news for Kerry, discouraging for Clark

I wonder if this news will make Clark redouble his efforts in NH? Do you think Kerry should pay closer attention to NH than he has been recently?

[janx]

36. Both of them might well crank things up after Iowa.

If not before.

[janx]

51. I think that both of them had better get their double sacks in

order. We're in for a whole new theater of war in primary politics.

[mikehiggins]

2. Kerry has taken notice of Clark's campaign

noting that he fought to end the war that Clark began his career fighting. However, it isn't likely for something like that to stick, at least not in 2004. People have another war on their minds at the moment.

I'm at a loss to see what Kerry can do vis a vis Clark, and I doubt the Senator wants to divert assets to go after him. It is unlikely that Kerry sees this a race for second place anyway.

[DemOutWest]

7. Because

since not one single vote has been cast, we believe that the voters who decide on who to vote for after January 1 will see that Senator Kerry is the right one. :)

Pointing out the differences on the positions taken by different candidates is not attacking.

Maybe Kerry and Clark agree and respect the others well educated and well informed positions.

From other posts I know that this will be taken as a blast against Dean. It's not. I support Kerry's views on the world and his policies that he will implement during his First 100 days in office.

I do not agree with the statements and policies of others.

The polls are useless. I have never believed them at all. This world changes day to day and hour to hour. Believe me, in one month or two months something will happen to change some of our thinking.

Osama caught, WMD found or not found (or planted by Rumsfield). North Korea exploding a nuclear weapon, etc.

We will keep up the fight through the Convention, and Kerry will be pointing out the differences between his policies and other candidates as they happen. Dean is the unlucky one at the moment.

DemOutWest

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. So do you think Clark has a strategy specific to overtaking Kerry?

He is making progress in NH, that's for certain. I don't believe he can catch up to Dean, but I do think he's going to come in a respectable second if Kerry doesn't start watching his backside better.

[janx]

27. Kerry "fought to end the war that Clark began his career fighting"

That's ironic. I haven't heard that one yet. I haven't heard Kerry say much of anything about Clark.

[liberalpragmatist]

3. He's actually going all-out for Iowa

He and his strategists have basically decided that they can't win in NH or even make a strong 2nd-place showing w/out a 2nd place or better in Iowa, and so Kerry's basically living in Iowa for weeks on end.

Plus, some polls have put his Iowa no.'s pretty high, and far more promising than his NH numbers.

[janx]

20. But if he gets second or so in Iowa, he's still going

to have to confront Clark in NH, no?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. But the positive bump would be substantial. eom

[janx]

44. Then it will be time to haul out the BIG artillery.

There's much yet to come.

[paulk]

4. the New Hampshire primary has a history of last minute changes

The polls don't mean shit - really. New Hampshire will be influenced by what happens in Iowa. If Kerry can take second - or first in Iowa - all bets are off. The closer the primaries get, the closer people will look at the candidates - especially in terms of their electibility in the GE. This is why Dean is being attacked on this front - it's his biggest weakness.

[5thGenDemocrat]

6. Yeah, you've been number one at bashing Kerry

And now you're sincerely concerned about his campaign?
Kerry was in Vietnam -- he's handled tougher stuff than this. Clark's been in Vietnam, too -- he can also handle a dustup with Kerry. And Dean's been in Vietnam -- oh, no, wait -- that was Vail.
John
Why don't you worry about Doc Dodger's campaign and let the Kerry people deal with their own problems? Oh, that's right -- because you're a Deanie and just plain smarter than the rest of us.

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. It's not concern at all...it's curiousity about strategy

If I were Kerry's campaign manager I would be a lot more concerned about Clark overtaking Kerry than I would be about Dean. Here's why:
Dean and Kerry don't attract the same votes. Kerry is attracting those who didn't oppose the war or didn't hold his vote against him who want a military guy. That's not the same constituency Dean attracts. Clark and Kerry are basically competing for the exact same votes and both should be taking each other very seriously. I think Kerry opens a door for Clark if he doesn't start covering his flank better.

I might annoy the crap out of some of you at times (and I admit that often times I try to do that) but this isn't attacking or bashing anyone. This is a valid question that I'm really surprised Kerry supporters, and even Clark supporters aren't really asking themselves as much as they should be.

:shrug:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. 1 out of 3 Dean supporters in NH would back Kerry

and 40% of Dean's supporters see themselves as liberal.
They are indeed pulling from the same crowd.

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. They would back him if Dean weren't running maybe

but for the most part, Dean supporters aren't going to bail in favor of Kerry. Due to the nature of the Dean campaign, his supporters have a much bigger emotional investment in the campaign...it's like a family. I think this might be something you probably aren't taking into account and probably should.

[DemOutWest]

14. Maybe

because Kerry actually cares for what is best for the country. He probably realizes that Clark is a leader who could take on Bush and lead the country down the right path.

In Dean, he really doesn't believe he can win the lection against Bush and he has serious doubts about the leader Dean is or would be.

He disagrees with Dean not because he is the front runner but because he is worried about the country.

Kerry has worked with many leaders and politicians. He likes and respects Clarks views. He has never agreed with Dean and probablt never will.

My .02 of $1

DemOutWest

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. I don't think that's really the case

It's good to try to make gains on whoevers leading in a race, but you also have to watch your behind. I think Kerry is too focused on watching what Dean is doing to strategically cover his rump from Clark. If he doesn't do something soon there's a very good chance he could be watching Clark's backside ahead of him too. If that happens I think his chances are gone. If he wants a real shot he can't let Clark overtake him.

[janx]

46. Clark could indeed have some kind of stealth , special-ops

kind of plan. Something truly testicular.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

11. I agree a Clark campaign most hurts Kerry, the proof is in the polls

Clark came in Kerry's numbers dropped like a stone. It's a shame because JK has paid his dues within the party.

[janx]

52. Yeah. We're going to see some major weapons systems

deployed before everything is said and done, and we're going to see men with some seeds battle it out in a whole new theater.

[janx]

12. That's an interesting question, KK.

I'd never thought about it.

There might be some competition between the two. Both stress their military aspects.

But which is actually better for the nomination?

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. Personally, I think I'd rather see it be a Dean vs Kerry battle

Although I really don't like Kerry, he does at least have domestic experience and knowledge. I think Dean's is better, of course, but I just don't think Clark has the domestic knowledge to cover that base adequately. I also think Clark is stronger on the military and foreign policy issues. I strongly dislike some of Kerry's ideas but am not sure I trust Clark. It's almost a catch 22 about who I'd rather see battling against Dean for the nomination in the end game. If I could choose who it would be out of all the candidates to end up battling with Dean it would probably be Lieberman, because I think that would actually bring some sorely lacking unity just because most people don't want Lieberman under any circumstances.

[LuminousX]

23. That's my preference too

I want to keep Clark as far away from the Oval Office as possible.

[janx]

37. I actually like Clark better than Kerry.

But they're both military stars.

And when you're at WAR the way we are, that's important.

I wonder which one of them would make a better wartime president, and why?

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. Well, I think Dean will make the best obviously

But I am quite curious as to who will be competing with Dean for the nomination. Maybe that's why I felt compelled to ask this question. By the sounds of the responses I'm getting, though, it doesn't sound as if either the Clark or Kerry campaign has any real strategy for how to knock off the other to be the "anti-Dean" candidate. I think it's foolish not to have some kind of strategy and it also sounds like the supporters of both campaigns haven't given it much thought. Only one of them will get the chance to fight Dean for the nomination, it can't be both of them. It surprises me that neither one of them seem to be paying attention to that truth. :shrug:

[janx]

45. It is baffling, yes. But one, only one of these soldiers is going

to have what it takes. Until then, expect lots of balls and ballistics.

[mitchtv]

17. Long time Keryy supporter here

the more he concentrates on attacking other candidates, the less likely that I will vote for him. I just cannot stomach what has become of his negative(to other Dems) campaign. Luckily I have time to decide if he is permanently off my list , or just temp off. His position on Weed , while liberal, shows too mush weasel and lack of leadership.I liked him very much when the campaigning began.

[DemOutWest]

28. Weasels

Other Dem's are attacking other Dem's also. He is not alone. Clark is after Dean. The only ones staying above the fray as I can see, I might be wrong, are CMB, Sharpton, DK and Edwards (?).

Kerry's not the only weasel, but he is the most experienced weasel. That's a joke! Making fun of the weasel that I support.

Can the other weasel supporters do the same? Can't we all unite behind one weasel after the convention to vote out the biggest den of lying weasels to ever live in Washington.

Democratic Weasels Unite!

Ok, enough on the weasels.

DemWeaselOutWest

[KaraokeKarlton]

29. I'm not big on weasels

but I have a ferret!

All kidding aside, I do think the REAL story (and battle) in this race is between Kerry and Clark to take the "anti-Dean" slot for the primaries.

I suspect that will begin to show itself at some point soon...I just wonder which one of them will start it. Actually, I did hear Kerry make a comment claiming that he was more experienced in military and foreign policy than Clark is. If that one starts getting repeated things will most certainly heat up between the two.

I mean, who of the two is better on military, defense and foreign policy? I don't want to get caught up in the middle of THAT argument.

[LuminousX]

22. Why won't Kerry go after Clark?

Kerry has blinders on. I'm shocked to see his current standings in the polls. He's my #2 guy and I honestly thought I was going to be in a win-win situation with it coming down to Kerry or Dean. I wish Kerry would focus more on Clark, but he won't. He is most likely hoping Clark will damage Dean enough that he can slip in unscathed.

[janx]

25. That would be a very dangerous strategy, IMO.

Kerry had better start thinking along different lines. Maybe he is and we just don't know it.

[unfrigginreal]

30. With Clark all but calling Kerry a phony yesterday with his

"some have both attacked the president and taken credit for capturing Saddam Hussein" statement, I thought for sure the Kerry camp would fire back. Of course if Clark has a point...

[Patriot_Spear]

33. Yeah, I was dissappointed in Wesley for that...

Slamming a fellow Vet like that seemed kind of low.

[janx]

35. It was a very ballsy thing to do, especially since we're at war.

But I have to give him a little credit for it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

34. Ouch

It looks like Clark may be preparing to get ready to go for a big bite out of Kerry's backside. It could get ugly.

[slinkerwink]

39. this is a legitimate question since Kerry gained in the recent NH poll

[janx]

40. I'll say. And pretty soon he might feel as if his balls are in a vice,

because Clark will come after him like a muskrat after a snake.

It won't take long before that happens.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

41. How will he do that?

Kerry goes after Dean and he gets called names and accused of helping the Republicans.
So how will Clark go after Kerry in a way that makes you happy?

[janx]

42. It's not a matter of making me happy. It's necessary gonadal

behavior.

Kerry's gaining. Clark can't wait until SC to bring out the big guns. Now he may be keeping his powder dry, but after Iowa there will be massive maneuvering.

[KaraokeKarlton]

43. Every candidate is different

Dean is someone attacks just aren't going to work on. He's always been that way, even here in Vermont elections. It only makes him stronger and do better. In fact, I actually think he LIKES it when others attack him. He likes the challenge.

So, attacks on Dean just don't work (this could be very handy against Bush and Rove...as it would throw them completely off). No one has really hit either Kerry or Clark anywhere near as hard as Dean has been hit. Those tactics might work against each other, even if they don't work against Dean. I'm not sure why this is the case, but I guess some candidates are more suseptible to these tactics than others are.

[poskonig]

47. Kerry should stress his liberal credentials instead of being Bushlite.

Then he can attack Clark for being a Republican and Dean for being unelectable.

[janx]

48. Kerry's going to have to start using campaign tools like

automatic weapons, like a couple of AK-47s in concert. Because pretty soon Dean won't be the only one he'll have to worry about. Wait for the sparks to fly and the tanks to roll after Iowa.

[poskonig]

49. John Kerry part II: The Vengeance

Part XII would be more like it........

[janx]

50. The next theatre in these primaries is going to be a Kerry/

Clark one. They'll be lobbing hand grenades and pulling all kinds of Terminator ballsy moves.

[Kanola]

53. I agree, it is between Clark and Kerry in NH

From what I have been seeing Clark is rising quickly in NH..

[oasis]

54. Clark and Kerry won't waste time attacking each other because they share a

common goal of ending the Bush administration. They both rightfully believe Dean can't get it done in the general election and that would leave the American people at the mercy of Bush and his right wing cronies for four more years.

[mzmolly]

55. I think they share the common belief that they are the best man for the

job though, dont they? They need to summon the troops and win the first battle before they can claim the ultimate victory. :shrug:

If indeed the goal is to take out Dean because he can't win, then why doesn't one of them drop out?

They are competing for the same demographic so it would make sense if what you say is true.

[janx]

56. In politics, as in war, you must win battle by battle.

And you must by all means watch out for fabricators.


Fabricator(DOD): Individuals or groups who, without genuine resources, invent information or inflate or embroider over news for personal gain or for political purposes.

[oasis]

57. I have no doubt that Gen. Clark got into the race because he believes Bush

is a danger to our country and our constitution. It was only when he saw Dean take such a large lead in the polls that Clark entered.

The two are not plotting against Dean, but waiting to see how events shape up after the initial primaries have had their run.