Waiting for un-Dean to emerge

[deminflorida]

Note important passages from this piece....

"I've taken to stuffing myself with meatballs at holiday parties, which beats trying to reassure nervous Democrats about Howard Dean.

Are we committing suicide, they keep asking me. Is this what it was like to be a grown-up during George McGovern's run? Most Democrats I meet these days, especially those over 35, are worried about the prospects of the presumptive nominee. With reason. In shoe departments, shopping malls and parties across America, a backlash of sorts is brewing."

"If Dean were running third or fourth right now in the Democratic primaries, I could see him taking a swipe at Clinton's compromises in the hopes of reaching out to a hard-core left base, and figuring that if lightening should strike, he could move to the middle later.

But lightning has already struck Dean. Everybody is already watching his every move. He has the left. He needs the middle.

The other candidates seized on the line to denounce Dean. The Dean speechwriter explained that no swipe at Clinton was intended. The speechwriter explained that they meant to attack Washington Democrats.

Why is Dean promising to raise taxes and return big government? It's December. Better government is what Democrats should promise, not big government. Attack Clinton, if you want, for not fulfilling the promise of his second term, but not for cutting government.

Dean is in no danger in Iowa and New Hampshire, but no one's going to give him the nomination quite as quickly as they might have. Second matters. Third will count. Look for the process to run a little longer. It's still his to lose. Someone will emerge as the un-Dean. My guess is Wesley Clark."


http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/105656-7216-021.html

[quinnox]

1. I was watching some political analysts

and they talked about how often in the month leading up to the primary (January), front-runners often stumble and fade, and new leaders emerge. This is a result of many voters finally starting to pay attention.

I would not be so confident that Dean will do well even in New Hampshire, there are several stories that don't seem to be going away for his campaign. One is the sealed records, and the other is his generous tax breaks to companies like Enron.

Today, there is another story questioning Dean's tax incentives in Vermont. http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2003/12/27/audit_raises_doubts_on_deans_tax_incentives/

[stickdog]

4. Is that all you got?

Wishful thinking and some corporate relocation incentives?

[bearfartinthewoods]

33. the answer to the second paragraph's question is yes.

ONLY 22% OF ALL REGISTERED VOTERS WANT A CANDIDATE THAT OPPOSED THE WAR


and who are we about to nominate?


we are soooo screwed........

[polpilot]

34. Not to worry. Dean will dispense with Bush MUCH easier than he has

with his demo contenders. The big difference in Dean The Candidate is that it's NOT POSSIBLE for him to take a dive. Photos of Dean delivering WMD to Saddam wouldn't derail this campaign. Won't happen.

Dean '04...

[stickdog]

2. "Why is Dean promising to raise taxes and return big government?"

Earth to commentator. Earth to commentator.

Government growth has been OUT OF CONTROL under the Boy King -- growing at almost twice the rate we saw under Clinton.

[deminflorida]

5. Amen to that.....

I have to agree with you.

[Lefty48197]

3. With the new rules...

I think you have to refer to him as the "non-Howard Dean" candidate.

[deminflorida]

6. It's a quote from a News Article...

n/t

[windansea]

7. eating meatballs!!

Susan sooooo funny...

[bearfartinthewoods]

8. to prevent locking, edit to four paragraphs...quickly

[dd123]

9. Didn't Wesley Clark oppose the war?

I don't get it.

Or are you a Kerry supporter? Who knows if he supported the war or not.

[mikehiggins]

10. Clark opposed the war

unless you don't like him. Then it isn't clear.

The differences between Dean and Clark on this issue are much less than appear to the eye. Both were against the war early on; both thought it the wrong war at the wrong time against the wrong foe; both felt that the administration sold the American public a bill of goods to justify invading Iraq and both feel the administration should have its feet held to the fire over that fact, rather than writing it off as a "goof".

As a Clark supporter, of course, I am required to point out (in accordance with the secret pact I signed to support Clark in exchange for sole title to Moldavia after the election) that the reason Clark's criticisms sound better is because he knows what he is talking about. Internatinal relations and warfare as a matter of policy is the arena he has worked in for several decades.

However, to be fair, I am certain Dr. Dean's opinions on Obstetrics would be much more relevent than Clark's.

(not really a bash, folks. I just thought it was worth mentioning)

[batman]

23. so you have to be a general to have a valid opinion?

:eyes:

[Upfront]

11. $300 Democrats

Seems there must be one big bunch of top 1% income Democrats because so many of you are worried that Dean will cut it. The average voter will understand that $300 bucks ain't jack S###. Unless something is done to correct this huge deficit this country is going down into the mother of all depressions. Anybody that asks me about Dean leaves understanding why he is the best man running and the man who will beat B###. They also find out about Deans plans to fix America, and guess what, they like them. I would say to America voters, if you want to know about why Dean is leading, go hear him speak at a rally, you will then get it. Some have and they are now pushing Dean. I love the angry issue, yep, I am angry at what B### has done to our country, I am angry at Democrats in office who chose not to resist, and I am angry enough to work my rear off for who ever is the Democratic candidate. A promise I know I can keep because this primary is over, it will be Dean! Go Dean!!!!!!!!!!

[cryofan]

12. Dean is a fraud, and his own words and record prove that

Dean is in disguise for the primaries. Just take a lot at what he did and said as Governor of Vermonot, well BEFORE his run for President:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"Throughout the 1990s, Dean’s cuts in state aid to education ($6 million), retirement funds for teachers and state employees ($7 million), health care ($4 million), welfare programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled ($2 million), Medicaid benefits ($1.2 million) and more, amounted to roughly $30 million. Dean claimed that the cuts were necessary because the state had no money and was burdened by a $60 million deficit.9
....
Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



my comment: I really find the Dean quotes above quite disturbing. The quotes and the article's detailed, footnoted enumeration of his tightfisted reign in Vermont should be engendering serious doubt in the minds of Democrats about his true political leanings.

The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

[stickdog]

14. Doesn't it get lonely being a hardcore socialist? (nt)

[cryofan]

27. Are you now, or you ever been...

...a dirty commie?
Is that not what you meant to say?

[dsc]

17. You promised original sources for those quotes

Are my great grandchildren going to be on Social Security before I see them?

[Hoppin_Mad]

22. You're not really expecting them, are you ?

---

"And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well... our president George W. Bush. We need them there."

Wes Clark, at a GOP Fundraiser, May 11, 2001

[dsc]

24. Let's just say I am not exactly holding my breath

but each and every time he posts that crappy article I am going to rub his nose in it.

[mouse7]

19. Earth to cryofan: Dean as moderate is a WELL known fact

Dean is a potential good nominee because doesn't he fall over himself to march lockstep with the neo-cons every time they rant about something.

Dean is one of several potential good nominees. I don't personally feel any of them are "great" from my point of view, but many several are good and, compared to Dubya, look like a cool flowing stream after days stuck in the Sahara. Maybe the stream water is only cool instead of being that perfect ice-cold temperature. However, after nearly dying of thirst, you ain't complaining.

[cryofan]

36. These Dean quotes make him sound RIGHT WING, not moderate

Check out this article's description of Dean and his quotes from when he was the governor of Vermont.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml


He sounds a lot like Tom DeLay, who is not exactly known as a moderate.

[WillyT]

13. This Is Sort Of Like 'Waiting For Godot', Correct ???

:shrug::evilgrin::shrug:

On edit: BTW - This is one HUGE measure of the success of the Dean Campaign. Think back just a year ago, and imagine that they would be writing articles on how to stop Dean, or waiting for the Un-Dean. Whatever happens, these people have been kickin politcal butts.

And I say RIGHT ON to that!

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:

[dsc]

15. You really are at the bottom of the barrel to be quoting her

The invaluable daily howler has a full dossier on this clowning clown and frequent Fox Contributer. Here is a list from the first page (yes you read that right) of my search of that site.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh100303.shtml

SUSAN'S LAMENT: Meanwhile, speaking of clowning performances, Susan Estrich was there in person last night as Hannity and Colmes did a live show from Philly. Estrich, of course, is a “Fox News Democrat”—is even more likely to trash her party than the “Hardball Dems” seen on MSNBC. Earlier in the California recall campaign, Estrich wrote a truly ludicrous op-ed column; in it, she trashed Arianna Huffington for ignoring her children while she conducted her race for the State House. But last night, Estrich was thoroughly miffed at the day’s reporting on Arnold Schwarzenegger’s groping and grabbing. The L. A. Times had landed on Arnold. And Estrich was there to complain:

ESTRICH: This really troubles me. Everybody knows I’m a Democrat and I’m not a big Arnold voter, not by any stretch. But here’s what happened, for those of you who don’t know. It is the Thursday before the Tuesday of an election, and I don’t like cheap shots, I really don’t.
So what does the Los Angeles Times do on the Thursday before the Tuesday? They come out, apparently after a seven-week investigation. They wait until Thursday, and they come up with an article that quotes anonymously four women and names two women.

Estrich found several problems with the Times reporting, which she referred to as “garbage.” She was shocked to learn that some such reporting is based on anonymous accusers. (Accusers who didn’t want their names used were supported by interviews with named associates.) She implied that the Times had published suspect information, although Schwarzenegger had already apologized for his conduct. But she made her principal complaint two times. Here was her second iteration:

ESTRICH: But here’s my point to the L. A. Times. If you had a serious story to run, if you thought there was serious misconduct, you don’t wait until the Thursday before the Tuesday. You run it early.
The Times had been holding it back! Of course, as Estrich herself had noted, the Times said that its detailed report was the result of a seven-week investigation. And when had Schwarzenegger announced his run? He announced his run on August 6, just a bit more than seven weeks back. But Susan Estrich—on-message with Arnold—kept saying the Times had been holding it back. She presented no evidence that this was true. Somehow, Alan Colmes failed to notice.

Her conduct in regard to Arnold is made even worse when you find this out.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh122203.shtml

Estrich’s work as an official “Fox Democrat.” In recent months, Fox keeps dragging Estrich on the air to correct misstatements she has aimed at some Hollywood liberal (for example, see THE DAILY HOWLER, 12/10/03). Like fellow “liberal feminist” Bruce, Estrich noted that she didn’t care about the Schwarzenegger groping allegations—and, like Bruce, Estrich now serves on the Schwarzenegger transition team! Comical, isn’t it? Every time Fox drags a “Dem” on the air, she works for a major Republican.




http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh121003.shtml

“I just don’t get it,” Estrich said. Was Gore really angling for Secretary of State? Was he really getting back at the Clintons? The puzzled pundit cited every possible reason—except for the one Al Gore actually gave! “You keep coming back to the point of why,” Estrich pondered. But Gore explained why, as Powell reported. Somehow, Estrich knew not to care.

He has a very long, too long to quote, excerpt of Estrich which is charcterized by the paragraph I qoute. Trust me he was accurate


http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh061203.shtml

ESTRICH: But wait. You’ve got to stop on two things, and I’m sure Eleanor has more to say on this. I mean, you know me. I’ve been in the last few days quite critical of Hillary Clinton’s book. I’m sick of Monica Lewinsky. I never believed him for a minute when he said, you know, I never had a relationship with that woman. I thought to myself, “Of course you did.” And as you know I asked him and he didn’t deny it. But there’s a very big difference between alleging force. I mean, if you look at Kathleen Willey’s allegation, she said in effect, “He came on to me—
HANNITY (indignant): Came on to me?

ESTRICH: “I decided it was time to get out of there and I did.”

HANNITY: That’s coming on? Grabbing her hand and forcing her to do stuff?…Let me ask something. Do you believe they’re lying? These three women that make very, very serious allegations, Susan. Do you think they’re lying?

ESTRICH: Are you asking me, if I believe they’re lying?

HANNITY: Yes.

But what’s the point of asking Estrich? Robert Ray dumped Kathleen Willey, and said he considered prosecuting her for her lies. But Estrich never mentioned that. Neither did Eleanor Clift or guest co-host Pat Halprin. “You know me,” Estrich said. And yes—we’re afraid that we do.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/h051500_1.shtml

DAO: Ms. Estrich praised Mr. Bush's ability to roll with Mr. Gore's punches and, in the process, make him seem like a negative politician. "It seems to be working," she said of the governor's approach. "He's up ."

end of all quotes

So let us do a review of the 'Democrat' who you chose to bring to our forum. She defends Arnold, attacks the LA Times for truthfully reporting the fact he groped women and accepts a job from him. She lies about Gore's endorsement of Dean. She praises Bush. She lets Willey be portrayed as a truth teller instead of the discredited witness she is. This is the source you bring us. This is the 'Democrat' you dare to try to get us to listen to. Shame on her and shame on you.

On edit italics are my words within the quotes

[killbotfactory]

16. Bush is the un-Dean...

You're looking for the anti-Dean in the wrong party.

[babzilla]

18. Susan Estrich needs to put the crack pipe down

she is bitter because her particular brand of consultation is irrelevant to today's political reality.

Cheer up Susan, Fox News may not pay as well as the DLC, but in the Bush economy you have to take what you can get.

Most Democrats I meet these days, especially those over 35, are worried about the prospects of the presumptive nominee. With reason. In shoe departments, shopping malls and parties across America, a backlash of sorts is brewing.

Dean is in no danger of losing Iowa and New Hampshire. His base is solid, and if anything, the very steps that unnerve some Democrats only serve to solidify that base.

So most Democrats you meet are worried and unnerved by Dean's candidacy because because his base is solid? There are political backlashes brewing in Shoe departments and shopping mall's across America? WTF? Very bizarre Susan, you should spend more time observing what is happening at meetups and other grassroots organizing functions across America to gain a better perspective on the real backlashes that are brewing.

Dean turned his attention to domestic policy last week, and in doing so, generated even more controversy and more serious doubts. In outlining his plans for universal access to health insurance, child care and secure pensions, he took what can only be described as a swipe at Bill Clinton's famous declaration that the era of Big Government is over. Now there are plenty of people inside the Democratic Party who never liked the fact that Clinton succeeded by governing from the middle instead of the left. But even those people would have to admit that Clinton, running in the middle, is the only Democrat who has won in nearly 30 years.

The only Democrat who has won in nearly 30 years? mmmkay Susan, do you mean by that the only Democrat who has won that you were consulting? Yeah, that's what I thought. Hell hath no fury like a political consultant scorned by their party. See Dick Morris.

The other candidates seized on the line to denounce Dean. The Dean speechwriter explained that no swipe at Clinton was intended. The speechwriter explained that they meant to attack Washington Democrats.

Who is this Dean speechwriter she speaks of? We will never know because she has no pretense of applying simple journalistic standards to her writing that might cause her to include a quote from said Dean speechwriter.

[mouse7]

20. "shoe departments, shopping malls and parties across America"

Well... what are the saying in line at the food bank, Susan? Oh yeah. You wouldn't have a clue, would ya' Susan.

I have no idea why Walter Mondale trusted his campaign to this thing. Possibly the worst decision he ever made. It obviously cost him dearly. She's one of the worst strategists to ever get that major a post, and she obviously got few prime offers afterward.

[dsc]

21. Don't blame Mondale

that was Dukakis. Mondale had hired Krauthammer as a speech writer though so he has his own cross to bear.

[babzilla]

25. Susan Estrich is the epitome of all that is wrong

in the Democratic Party.

She knows it, I know it, and Dean knows it, that is why she is lashing out against the Dean candidacy.

I hope she takes comfort in the fact that Fox News, the Ca. repubs, Bruce Reid and Al Fromm love her, because even the folks in the shoe departments across america will have a hard time buying her particular kind of bullshit.

[raysr]

26. "No Will to Win"

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=Opinion&OID=41212

[jonnyblitz]

35. she is worn out from working for the "Arnold for GOV" campaign

cut the poor wack job some slack. :crazy:

[worldgonekrazy]

28. It sickens me when people post Repuke spin

Yeah lets just give up hope. The only way to win is to get behind some establishment whore. Fuck this populist shit.

You're really bringing me down man.

[Capn Sunshine]

30. WHAT HE SAID

I nominate you for newbie post of the year! :yourock:

[Capn Sunshine]

29. Aren't Iowa and New Hampshire "the middle"?

How about the following states? Whne Dean sweeps all the primaries, what "middle" will these guys refer to?

Or is this an expanding middle from eating too many "donut holes"?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

31. DUKAKIS: Susan, should I get in the tank?

ESTRICH: Sure, Michael, get on in it!

DUKAKIS: Should I drive it all around?

ESTRICH: Oh, yeah, drive it all around! Make lots of dust!

DUKAKIS: Should I put this tank helmet on my head?

ESTRICH: Oh, yes! Yes! That will be your crowning glory! What a
photo-op this is going to be!

[babzilla]

32. waiting for un-susan estrich to emerge.

Like an alien from the belly.

Wait, that is how i expect the genuine susan estrich to emerge, nevermind.