Dear Hillary Clinton, Since You Can't Say Whether or Not Gays Are Immoral...

[David Zephyr]

Dear Mrs. Bill Clinton,

Since you can not even find it within yourself to state publicly whether or not you think that gay and lesbian Americans are "immoral" then you can kiss any chance whatsoever of my ever supporting you...including if you win the primary of the Party I love and have fought for for decades. You are not worthy of one single vote from anyone in the GLBT community. Not one.

Our community is sick of being the last one at the table. Your husband --- whose lack of morals cost our party and our nation a lot of grief because it led to Al Gore being defeated --- betrayed his campaign promise of 1992 regarding allowing gay and lesbians Americans to serve openly in the Armed Forces by fostering the evil "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy upon our troops and Marines. You are apparently cut from the same cloth.

This is very personal for me.

Immoral? Wow! You are something else, woman.

Well, you've had your own "Sister Souljah Moment" Hillary. I hope you feel it was worth it.

If you can not find it within yourself to answer whether we are "immoral" then I hope that you sink faster than a stone now in your egoistical campaign for the White House.

With friends like you, Mrs. Clinton, we don't even need enemies.

[Olney Blue]

1. Is there any candidate with the courage to say that?

[David Zephyr]

4. Yeah, John Edwards, Barack Obama.

Even Republican Senator John Warner said that he doesn't think gays are immoral.

[Olney Blue]

6. That makes me hopeful. Thank you for this thread.

[David Zephyr]

8. You are welcome. This is a good thing. Everyone now see Hillary as she is.

No wonder 50% of the nation despises her in poll after poll.

[DemKR]

25. Obama said nothing nt

[Ken Burch]

42. And Kucinich!

Dennis has been pro-gay in both presidential campaigns.

[AZBlue]

55. Barack Obama skirted the very same question today...

eom

[ruggerson]

68. You're lying dude

Barack Obama had the same response as Clinton - he ducked it. He then "clarified" through a spokesman, just like she did.

Facts are your friends.

[Kceres]

10. I'm not convinced.

I am still sitting on the fence about Hilary. IMO none of the candidates are looking all that terrific on gay rights. BTW, I am a straight, married woman and gays rights has become my #1 issue for this election, right up there with choice.

[JeremyWestenn]

13. I think she is the gay communities strongest candidate.

She supports civil unions, and probably privately same sex marriage, she supports the rights of gay couples to be able to adopt and be foster parents, she supports putting the GLBT community into federal hate crime legislation and she is probably the only Democratic candidate I could actually see issuing an executive order to end Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

[David Zephyr]

15. Perhaps you can start your own chapter of "Log Cabin Democrats"

There's a place for everyone.

[JeremyWestenn]

18. The hell does that mean? I'm assuming it's just a smart ass remark to ignore every point I said.

Because you have undoubtedly no rebuttal other then crying and waving your hands and saying you don't like Hillary!

[Ken Burch]

43. Oh get real...

HRC will cave on everything Bill caved on. They never disagreed then, so they can't disagree now.

Neither gays, feminists nor any other progressive constituency got anything for their loyalty to El Perro Grande.

[Captain Hilts]

2. She has a strong record of being pro-Gay rights. 'Nuff said. nt

[Morgana LaFey]

48. and just eviscerated it nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David Zephyr]

7. Dork?

Name calling now from the Hillary clan.

If you are gay, you should know better than to be stooping to calling people derogatory names.

And she's hardly the "best best candidate for Gays in YEARS and YEARS".

[JeremyWestenn]

9. LOL.

Let's put it this way then. Take off your blinders.

She supports civil unions, and probably privately supports same sex marriage(let's face it, the Clintons are liberal as hell). She supports adding gays to hate crime legislation, she supports the right of homosexual couples to be able to adopt and be foster parents, and she's probably one of the few candidates(probably the only Democrat) I could plausabily see actually administrating an executive order to over turn Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Best. Thing. For. Gays. In. A. Long. Fracking. Time.

[AshevilleGuy]

16. This isn't about legislation - it goes to respect, and who we are.

I happen to be gay myself. This is about whether or not she sees homosexuality as WRONG. It's about whether or not we deserve to be second or third class citizens because of our orientation. It's about whether we will have YET ANOTHER president who thinks we are to be a tolerated, but "immoral" minority!!
It's about whether young kids who are at the point at which they are accepting or rejecting the sexual orientation that they HAVE, feel okay about it, or hear that the most powerful person in the country thinks they are some sort of undesirables.

Yeah, all the goals you list are extremely important, but they need to be accompanied by good will on her part. Now we will NEVER know what she really thinks about us; who would believe her coming explanations now?

[JeremyWestenn]

17. Do you have any idea how politics is played?

It takes conessions to get elected. In a perfect world she could speak her mind, and say all that she believes. There is no doubt in my mind that she doesn't think gays are immoral, but there is also no doubt in my mind that that can come down on her like a pile of bricks. The truth of the matter is that if we lived in your fantasy world, where politicians can say all that they believe and not have to worry about reprecussions because it'd be a respected opinion(or whatever it is you think the world is like) then that'd be fine for her to speak her mind.

But in this world you get reamed for saying some things. So she conceded something and passed on it. I don't mind it all. It's the way the game is played. However, I don't necessarily believe that in retrospect she still stands by saying that. I think she can see now that, with John Warner siding on the side of sanity, it probably wouldn't have been a political disaster to say the truth. But what's done is done.

[AshevilleGuy]

24. No, I have only followed politics since 1960...

So I'm new at this.

How many politicians refused to take a stand on civil rights in the 1960s for fear of losing an election?
And how many actually LOST an election becsuae of it, and wouldn't have lost if they had played it safe? We do not know because their names are mere footnotes in history books.

Do we revere any of those pols who played it safe during that era, or during the Vietnam War? Do we hero worship pols now who are afraid to come out against the Iraq mess? We shouldn't, at any rate.

I really think that any voters offended by someone saying that homosexuality is NOT immoral, would vote repuke anyway. This was meant to be a softball question to her; I bet Jake Tapper was speechless at her reply!

[IndianaGreen]

45. If Hillary is a coward now about LGBT rights, she will be a coward in the White House

I really think that Hillary is still that Goldwater girl she used to be and that unlike the elder Barry Goldwater, she still thinks that gays and lesbians are dysfunctional and sinful.

[Ken Burch]

46. History proves that progressives always fail and lose when we DON'T speak our minds.

Clinton's approach is the sole reason Newt was able to take over Congress in 1994.

Fighting for principle and showing courage is the only way to win.

[David Zephyr]

19. It's good news. Now we know, AshevilleGuy. I'm liberated.

In 2008, I won't have to pretend that she didn't support the Iraqi War.

In 2008, I won't have to pretend that she didn't support the Patriot Act.

In 2008, I won't have to pretend that she undermined John Murtha when he came out against the war.

In 2008, I won't have to pretend that she will deliver any promise made to gay and lesbian Americans.

In 2008, I won't have to pretend that I am not insulted when she mimics southerners and blacks with her affected manners of speaking.

In 2008, I won't vote for her under any circumstances.

I'm liberated finally from the Clintons. And that's a good thing for Hillary, too.

She shouldn't want anyone whose "morality" that she is ambiguous about supporting her either.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David Zephyr]

23. OK, I'll remember you.

.

[DemKR]

26. Gays 4 Hillary....n/t

[DIKB]

30. Wow

point for point, very well said !!!

[David Zephyr]

33. Please forgive my ignornace.

Who is Cpl. Theodore Bowling. Your post with his honorable mention puts everything quickly into perspective and as to what really matters in life. He is a hero in my eyes. :thumbsup:

[DIKB]

63. He's a hero

in my view too.

He went by his middle name "Andrew" and that's how I always knew him. He was a friend in High School, a part of a small largely different group of friends I hung out with. It wasn't your standard clique, b/c everyone was so radically different, but we all got along great. To put it bluntly, "He was a thug." Small arrests, got in trouble for a number of things, dabbled in drugs, etc. but he cleaned up. The military changed his life, he hoped to come home and become a police officer, hopefully to help out kids who were like himself. Two weeks shy of coming home from his 2nd tour, he died in Iraq.

He is a reminder of the waste that this occupation is.

[MGKrebs]

35. Actually, not really.

- Good luck finding a candidate who didn't support the war.
- Good luck finding a candidate who didn't support the Patriot Act
- Not sure what this one is referring to.
- This is a fantasy. HC supports the GLBT community very strongly.
- Her accent?


Please break free from the "pick on the frontrunner" bandwagon.

I mean really, if Clinton were fourth in the polls, most of these people would be complaining about how a woman still had to work twice as hard just to get even, and how the frontrunner was just pandering all the time.

Liberate yourself.

[TankLV]

69. Thankyou for points well made.

[Ken Burch]

44. "The Clintons are liberal as hell"? Compared to who, the Taliban?

Tell the workers who lost their jobs to NAFTA how liberal the Clintons are.

Tell the gay servicemembers who had their careers destroyed because El Perro Grande caved to Sam Nunn and the Pentagon how liberal the Clintons are.

Tell the people in El Salvador who cower in fear of the army whose officers were trained at the School of the Americas(the one the Clintons refused to close) how liberal the Clintons are.

Tell the hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions, of poor women with kids who were cut off from public assistance because El Perro Grande wouldn't risk a few public opinion percentage points to stand up to Rush Limbaugh's lies about the immorality of "welfare mothers" how liberal the Clintons are.

Tell the millions of people who STILL don't have health care because Bill 'N Hill surrendered to the insurance industry and Bob Dole, Bob Dole without a fight how liberal the Clintons are.

Liberals defend the powerless, they don't sell them out.

We don't have to settle for that kind of shit anymore.

It isn't a right-wing country like it may have been in '92.

We can WIN on our values and principles now.

[MGKrebs]

12. You call her Mrs. Bill Clinton, and you're worried about name calling?

And let me ask you, do you think she thinks homosexuality is immoral?

[David Zephyr]

14. Err...that is her name. Are you ashamed of it for some reason?

To answer your question: There are two possibilities:

1.) She doesn't think that gay and lesbians are immoral, but doesn't have the courage to say so as John Edwards, Barack Obama did. And as even John Warner did. Same question to all of them and they answered that they did NOT think that gays and lesbians were immoral.

2.) She does think we are immoral, but doesn't want to say.

Either way, I'm happy she has now cleared up to all gay and lesbians what hope they can place in her promises. None.

Hillary did me a big favor. I'm through with her. Period. If she wins the nomination, then I won't vote for her, wont' contribute a dime to her.

I owe her a lot. Now we know.

[ElizabethDC]

20. self-delete

[MGKrebs]

31. It's possible that she is pretty secular and therefore

"morality" has little meaning in this context.

[David Zephyr]

34. Google up how many times Hillary has used the word moral and morals and morality

You will be amazed. She uses the term a lot.

So she can't have it both ways.

I admire her followers rushing to defend her, but it would be a lot better if she now clearly states that since she is comfortable with using the term moral, then she needs to weigh in about gay and lesbian Americans...many of whom are coming home from Iraq in caskets or missing limbs.

Moral or immoral?

[MGKrebs]

36. Can she have until tomorrow to set things right, or

has the deadline passed?

[David Zephyr]

38. Can she? She made a horrible and cruel and insulting statement.

Is she capable of setting it right?

Forgiveness only comes with repentance. She has hurt the honor of millions and millions of Americans, both dead and alive.

[terisan]

5. How can anyone make a judgement of morality on a diverse group of people ?

Who has the right to make such a moral judgement?

[Olney Blue]

11. The Chimperor?

[usregimechange]

21. kick and rec

[DIKB]

27. She is trying SOOOOO Hard

to reach for the Middle, and crossover repuke votes, that she is going to lose the people she takes for granted.

Let's be perfectly honest for a second though: There is NO FUCKING WAY the repukes will crossover and vote for her, they HATE her too much!!!!!!!

The absolute ONLY WAY she could get support from some wavering republics would be to run a straightforward HONEST campaign, this politicking is killing her. They can smell the BS and pandering, so cut it the fuck out!!!

[David Zephyr]

28. Maybe Hillary can still squeeze herself into Liberty Baptist's calendar.

I'm certain that Reverend Falwell can find an opening for her to speak.

[IndianaGreen]

40. I think that fundie prayer group she belongs to on Capitol Hill is having an influence

and she probably really believes, as they do, that being gay is a choice and that it is a sin, but she lacks the courage to say publicly what she really thinks.

[AshevilleGuy]

29. Yep. Refusing to take a stand usually pisses off both sides. n/t

[MGKrebs]

32. My perception of the political spectrum is that it is not divided

right down the middle as you suggest. There's about 25% on the left (ideologues) and about 25% on the right (ideologues), which leaves about 50% in the middle, who don't vote based strictly on the party or on affiliation with an ideology (like "conservative"). HC, or any other candidate for that matter, will never get that 25%, but that leaves 75% in play.

[Eric J in MN]

37. She did the interview to talk about policy, not to pass moral...

...judgements. That's why she said that it's not for her to say.

[Bronyraurus]

47. Bull

She could have shown real leadership and she showed cowardice instead.

[IndianaGreen]

39. Time travel back to 1933: Are Jews the vermint of humanity?

As a Jew I would expect the candidate to say that not only Jews were not vermint, but that the question itself was reflective of racism and intolerance and had no place in a free and democratic society.

How would anyone that is not an anti-Semite react to an answer that "it was a matter of personal opinion," and leave it at that?

That's how I feel about Hillary's answer to the question!

Ask the same question from either Rabbi Dennis or Rabbi Sandy, in the Conservative congregation of which I am member, and they would both answer with a strong "NO!" to the question if gays are immoral. Not only that, but they would give you an earful about how each human being has a measure of the Divine within us, and how we all deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Hashem is the G-d of the straight and the LGBT alike!

[David Zephyr]

41. Thank you for your comments, IG.

"How would anyone that is not an anti-Semite react to an answer that 'it was a matter of personal opinion,' and leave it at that?"

How indeed?

I would have supported her in the general election in spite of my many misgivings, but now...forget it.

[AshevilleGuy]

53. And your Rabbis would know more about that verse in Leviticus

the fundies are always bashing us with, than do the fundies! Thanks from me as well, IG!

[Morgana LaFey]

49. I'm with ya 100%, with one small quibble

We know enough about the election fraud that went on in FL to know that Gore didn't lose at all, least of all because of Clinton.

That doesn't mean I forgive Clinton for his indiscretions which WERE harmful to the party, etc., or that you should. But Gore didn't lose.

As for Hillary, she is simply showing who she really is: an opportunist, a DLCer, a corporatist, and apparently more of a "conservative" than most of us would like.

Don't worry. I am pretty sure she doesn't have a chance (else I'd be suicidal, probably -- all right, slight exaggeration, but I would be MASSIVELY unhappy).

[Clarkie1]

50. You said it so much better than I, David. nt

[gravity]

51. It's called politics

It would be damaging to her no matter how she answered, so she didn't.

I think its stupid that everyone is attacking the left, when the right are the ones who are the real threat to gay rights.

[Clarkie1]

52. Silence is insidious.

It's called human dignity and respect.

Fuck politics.

[gravity]

54. Well enjoy 4 more years of republicans

in the White House.

[Ken Burch]

60. It's not a choice between silence and defeat.

People who say or think "them faggots should burn in hell" ain't NEVER gonna vote for us anyway.
There's no reason to even BOTHER pandering to neanderthals on this issue.

[enough already]

64. HIllary the Intolerant is not the only Dem choice to beat the pukes

As much as the kool-aid drinkers would like us to believe that.

[IndianaGreen]

57. It's called remaining silent when there is an injustice (the good German syndrome!)

And since Hillary disregarded Dr. King's words about remaining silent when there is an injustice, I can safely assume that she didn't mean a darned word in her speech in Selma. She was only pandering her audience.

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

-- Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Singular73]

56. Its spineless, yet it would be hypocritical to say anything....

The left-wing talking point has been "keep personal feelings to yourself" about this policy....so if she comes out and says something, she loses. If she stays quiet, she loses.

[Faryn Balyncd]

58. New York Times. . . . . . . . . . . . . Clinton Sees Some Troops Staying in Iraq if She Is Elected

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3163095

[MrSlayer]

59. I'd say the average GLBT person is as moral as the average straight person.

I'll bet you'll find the percentage between straight and gay murderers, for example, to be very close to the same as the average of each in the population.

[robcon]

61. We don't need politicians to decide whether something is immoral.

I don't care what Clinton believes.

[Stephanie]

62. Try calling her office and asking whether she supports gay marriage.

They won't answer the question.

Where does Senator Clinton stand on Marriage Equality?
July 9, 2006 - 9:32am.

Kevin Downes writes in to tell us of his experience in trying to get an answer from Senator Clinton's office to a simple, yes or no, question:

Over the past month as I have petitioned to get Jonathan Tasini on the ballot, many people have asked me his position on same-sex marriage. I was able to answer simply and directly, “He’s 100% in favor. He's for marriage equality, because he is against discrimination in any form."

This led me to wonder how his opponent, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, would answer the same question. So I called her office. I was transferred to a staff member who said, apparently reading from a script, that Senator Clinton had voted against the cloture motion that would have allowed the Senate to consider an amendment to the Constitution banning same-sex marriage, because she is against writing discrimination into the Constitution.

I applauded that vote, but pressed: "But what is the Senator's position on same-sex marriage generally?" The staff member seemed a bit off guard. I rephrased my question: "Does Senator Clinton support gay marriage? Does she support the right of same-sex couples to marry?" The staff member told me she would have to transfer me to the Legislative Desk. I was put on hold, and then after a few rings I got an answering machine. I left my name and telephone number and repeated my follow-up question. I also added another: “Does Senator Clinton support the Defense of Marriage Act and, if not, will she work to repeal it?"

One week later, on the day the New York State Court of Appeals issued its decision on same-sex marriage, a member of Senator Clinton's staff returned my call. The response to my first question was that Senator Clinton is for full equality for all couples in legal relationships, whether marriage, civil unions or domestic partnerships. “But does she support marriage equality for same-sex couples?" I asked. The staff member repeated the initial statement. She then addressed my question on the Defense of Marriage Act, noting that this is the law and that when it was enacted and signed into law in 1996 by President Clinton, Senator Clinton felt it was important to support her husband.

So, after the course of one week, I got two carefully crafted and wholly unsatisfactory answers from Senator Clinton’s office. I still don’t know exactly where she stands on this issue. The answer should be simple and straightforward, like the answer I give to people when I'm asked where Jonathan stands on marriage equality. "He's for marriage equality, because he's against discrimination. Period."

- by Kevin Downes

http://www.tasinifornewyork.org/blog/71?page=9

[TankLV]

70. Senator Clinton is for full equality for all couples in legal relationships, whether marriage, civil

unions or domestic partnerships".

Seem crystal clear to me that she answered your question in the AFFIRMATIVE - she SUPPORTS equality in all aspects. Period. No exceptions.

Now, they were unwilling to say it in exactly YOUR words. Boo Fucking Hoo. Grow Up!

SHE AGREES WITH YOU!

Or do you not have reading comprehension skills?!?!

I loudly and justifiably criticize her for many things, but you're WRONG on this one, and so is that person you quoted.

LEARN TO READ!

[mtnsnake]

65. What a steaming pantload

With friends like you, Mrs. Clinton, we don't even need enemies.

Ya got it backwards.

With friends like YOU, Democrats need no enemies, and that includes one of the best Democrats of them all, Hillary Clinton....or as you just might be referring to her in a couple years...."President Hillary". How's that sound? Pretty good?

[IndianaGreen]

66. Your precious Hillary won't even bring the war in Iraq to an end

In addition to insulting LGBT Americans yesterday, she also said that as President she was going to continue the occupation of Iraq (with less troops) in order to continue to fight terrorism and Iranian aggression (whatever the hell that means!).

as you just might be referring to her in a couple years...."President Hillary". How's that sound? Pretty good?

In a couple of years we will referring to her as war criminal Hillary, for if she keeps her word as to keeping troops in Iraq, she would turn Bush's war into a Democratic war, and Bush's crimes will become her crimes.

[mtnsnake]

67. Whine about it to your Greens. Nobody here believes any of the vile nonsense you spout

although I'm sure the minions will claim otherwise, just to support your anti-Hillary campaign in order to further the cause of the Greens.

In a couple of years we will referring to her as war criminal Hillary

"War criminal Hillary" my ass. You're just jealous of the lady. That much is obvious. For all anyone knows, she's probably everything you always wanted to be but never could be. No sense crying about it, though, and running her down because you hold it against her that she's one of the strongest Democrats ever. Even as an Obama supporter, I have to admire Hillary's dedication to doing what's best for all of us.

[TankLV]

71. Don't be nasty to Indiana - she's just angry on a topic that is near and dear to her and us...

We all get heated in an argument.

I for one of many here, appreciate and agree with 100% and look forward to her many illuminating comments - more so than many of mine are (I lack patience lately).

Indian is about as far removed from "spouting vile nonsense" than almost ALL of the posters here...

I may have an occasional disagreement with her on one or more topics, but please don't throw out the baby with the bath water...