For all of you who were "O.K" with Senator Clinton's ambiguity yesterday

[Clarkie1]

about whether or not gays are immoral, I would ask that you consider a few points.

First, I applaud Senator Clinton for here statement today that she does not believe homosexuality is immoral...it's what she should have said in the first place. Because of here clarification, I will vote for her if she is the nominee.

Second, it WAS NOT "O.K." We need to hold our leaders to high standards. I will never vote for ANYONE who is ambiguous on the issues of basic human dignity and civil rights, ever.

When I said I would not vote for her, I meant exactly what I said. I am disappointed that so many DU'ers defended her statement yesterday. We are better than that.

[Prophet 451]

1. It was disappointing certainly

But, in fairness, would any of the other candidates have had the guts to say something different?

[Clarkie1]

2. That's not the issue. nt

[lakeguy]

3. not if you keep expecting them not to. nt.

[Clarkie1]

4. Exactly. nt

[Prophet 451]

5. I'm a cynic

I'd love a politico to come out and say "being gay is morally neutral" or get behind same-sex marriage but I also have a pretty low opinion of politicians generally and I don't expect many of them (Dennis Kucinich aside) to have the nerve to do so. Nice thing about being cynical is that you're never disappointed but occasionally pleasently surprised.

[1620rock]

8. I swore that I would not read another Hillary post here...

..But I read a post yesterday on "Bartcop" I think, that wondered why Kerry (and many others) were given a pass on certain issues,(the war vote in that instance,) and Hillary is always held to a higher standard... Why? is it because she is a woman? a Clinton? or does she simply rub people the wrong way? Well anyway she is rather nebulous on issues. My personal choice is Al Gore, however I always have voted for any Democrat over any Repuplic, and will most definitely vote for Hillary if she is the Democratic nominee.

[Prophet 451]

12. I think she just rubs people the wrong way

Of course, the msm took against her and Bill from the start which doesn't help but there just seems something abrassive about her. Superifical for sure but there it is.

[dansolo]

32. I still don't give Kerry a pass on his war vote

The only reason I even give Edwards a bit of a pass is because he apologized for his vote, and stated that is was wrong, during the 2004 election campaign. It took Kerry far to long to admit his mistake, and that wasn't until long after he lost the election, when popular opinion had turned significantly against the war.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

15. Yes, Edwards did

He had the courage to say that he did not agree with Pace's belief that homosexuality is immoral. He did it. John Warner--a Republican senator from a conservative state--did it. There is NO excuse that Hillary Clinton and Obama, who are Democratic senators from progressive states, couldn't do the same when they had to make a snap decision (Obama had more time to consider the issue, since he dodged the question not once, not twice, but thrice before "clarifying" his position after the political fallout from it was apparent) on what to say...

I am glad we did not have "leaders" like this during the civil rights era.

[Prophet 451]

17. Well done Edwards

Surprising but gratifying.

[Bitwit1234]

6. How about Obama not saying he thought gays were immoral

his committe gave the first statement. Obama later released his own statement, as did Hillary saying that.

And by the way, I like Edwards but he did not say what Pace said was immoral. He made a statement but it was ambigious...he did not come right out and say that.

I think that when a statement is made concerning one candidate it should be told what they all say. Again, Hillary has a heck of time fending off the republicans now she has to fend off attacks by the democrats.

And I stand by my statement. If people don't like her, say so. They shouldn't try to constantly try to justify all kinds of stuff about her. She's not going to win the nomination, men in this country won't vote for her. Same as Obama won't get the nomination because he is black. That is a fact and won't be changed.

The democrats as usual will bypass two of the good candidates and pick a wussy butt like they always do. Although Senator Kerry was not that bad.

[Clarkie1]

7. I don't agree with your "facts"

I do not believe that Obama won't get the nomination because he is black is a fact anymore than I believe the same of Senator Clinton because she is a woman. I believe we are better than that.

They may not win the nomination, but it will be based on their merits, not their race or gender.

[1620rock]

9. We are better than that, but not the majority of stupid Americans.

[Clarkie1]

11. I do not agree that the majority of Americans are stupid, either. nt

[Bucky]

13. Shit, don't you believe in ANY clichéed, simplistic, sweeping generalization?

Goddamn thinkers are ruining this country. Stop all that thinking and go shop, dammit.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

16. Edwards vs. Hillary/Obama

There is a significant difference between what Edwards said and what Hillary/Obama said. Edwards took a position on the issue and put himself on the line by stating the he did not agree with that view. Hillary and Obama dodged the question altogether (three times in Obama's case), refusing to state their views. We know why they did that. They did not want to offend the substantial segment of the population that does agree with Pace, so--taking a page from the Ronald Reagan in 1968 playbook (who refused to condemn George Wallace)--refused to take a position on the matter in order to not lose appeal to a portion of the electorate they want to appeal to. The progressive fallout to their actions was quick and apparent, so they had to quickly "clarify" because they must win the nomination before they can seek to garner support among that demographic in the general election...

Why is Hillary receiving more criticism for this than Obama? 1, she is the frontrunner, 2, she has a long record of swaying with the political winds that Obama does not have.

[Captain Hilts]

10. Her voting record is very pro-gay rights. nt

[terisan]

14. I don't need or want Clinton's Imprimatur, nor that of any governmental official

As I am one of the persons who was not bothered by Senator Clinton's comments and found them OK, I will answer as an individual. I think you are making unwarranted assumptions about people being being better or worse, good or bad, based possibly upon your personal framing of an issue.

I do not demand that others share my personal beliefs about morality and I do not seek validation from a political office-seeker or a president.
Senator Clinton's personal moral views on sexuality or issues such as abortion are of little interest to me, and neither are Senator Brownback's. What I care about is equal rights and my right to privacy. Their stated views on rights of individuals and their records are what I use to make my voting decisions-not their personal views on morality. You have the right to form your own criteria and to vote in accordance with that criteria.

I do not judge you for your criteria and I wonder why you judge me.

I consider myself just as "good" as you although I see this issue in a different way. To me a person's personal morality beliefs are beliefs and everyone is entitled to his or her beliefs. What they are not entitled to do is to deny other people their rights based upon personal beliefs.

I personally know persons who believe that abortion in immoral, but they defend my right and the right of others to choose to abort. I could vote for such a person to be president. The key to me is whether one can and will separate personal beliefs from public role.

Also, I note that saying homosexuality or heterosexuality is moral or immoral is not the same as saying homosexual or heterosexual acts are moral or immoral. Many on the so-called Christian Right believe it is fine to be homosexual so long as one doesn't engage in sex with someone of the same gender.

To me the question, "Is homosexuality moral or immoral ?" makes no sense. Nor does the question "Is heterosexuality moral or immoral?" make sense. In each case, it simply exists-it is a state of being. How can you say it is moral or immoral.

If I cared about a candidate's person moral views on sexual orientation It would make more sense to me to ask whether he or she considered engaging in homosexual or heterosexual acts to be moral or immoral. However I don't feel the need to know. I only want to know whether he or she will uphold my right to engage as I wish.

[Clarkie1]

18. I do demand it. Nobody is entitled to racist beliefs, and this is no different.

Either we treat all human beings with dignity and respect or we don't.

[MGKrebs]

19. You can make simplistic, clear cut statements and demands all you want,

but that doesn't make it so.
There are millions of religious people throughout this country and the world who treat everybody with dignity and respect AND adhere to a faith that thinks homosexuality is immoral. I know some of them. They actually volunteer in shelters and help the very most disadvantaged of us. They think that drug use is immoral, some of them think that homosexuality, pre-marital sex, and drinking alcohol is immoral, but it doesn't stop them from helping people who they think are doing immoral things and they don't feel compelled to make clear, definitive statements about it to these people when confronted.
Is eating pork immoral? Is driving a car on Saturday immoral? Is working on Sunday immoral? Is swearing immoral?

We don't live in a theoretical Platonic system. This is the world we live in and it's a little messy in here sometimes.

[Clarkie1]

20. You can't have it both ways. Some things are simple.

Believing that homosexuality is immoral means believing an entire group of human beings are immoral. I'm sure there are KKK members who do good works for thier church as well.

Homophobia is a prejudice like any other and it's hateful and it's wrong. Anyone who adheres to any form of prejudice is perpetuating hate.

[loyalsister]

22. I know some people like that too

They show distinct disdain for people who have disabilities.
They seperate out the good people who are legitimately disabled and truly "vulnerable" from those who did it to themselves and deserve what they get.
Meanwhile they do volunteer work to gain props for themselves.
And especially Tax credits for any donations.
Nice people indeed.

[dsc]

23. Yes, people are

the first amendment entitles people to any thoughts they may wish to have. What they aren't entitled to do is treat people differently based upon those thoughts. I don't care if Hillary, John, Wesley, Barack, or Bill think I am immoral. I do care if they think straight people deserve more rights than I do. It should be noted that Truman was a racist but he also did more for Civil Rights than any President except Johnson.

[Trajan]

21. Another day ....

Another attack on a Democrat ....

---DELETED---

Why even bother ?

[Forkboy]

24. You're really workin' this one.

[TheConstantGardener]

25. I'm never OK with this woman's shrill political calculating

When she did it in 2002 it lead to thousands of Iraqi kids being blown apart. She continues to do it to this day.

She wouldn't even debate her only opponent in the Primary in 2006. She has no sense of honor or integrity; she's an establishment politician out for some popularity points.

[PresidentObama]

26. She said she didn't think homosexuality was immoral.

Which is what you wanted her to say, right? She gave her opinion when you were outraged because she wouldn't answer, and yet you're still finding reasons to complain?!? I'm starting to think you're looking for reasons to justify your anti-Hillary stance with any little statement she says. She made a mistake about how she answered the question, and she clarified. Sheesh. Heaven forbid one of our candidates say something or not say something to feed into the gotcha politics of the MSM. And you take it like candy from strangers.

Where is your statement about Obama as well, BTW? Hmmmmm....?

[Evergreen Emerald]

27. ditto

[Flabbergasted]

28. When did she say: "she didn't think homosexuality was immoral."

[MGKrebs]

29. Yesterday.

"I’ve heard from a number of my friends, and I’ve certainly clarified with them any misunderstanding that anyone had, because I disagree with General Pace completely. I do not think homosexuality is immoral." - Statement of Senator Hillary Clinton"

http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ci=108&ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=18873

Also Obama:

"I do not agree with General Pace that homosexuality is immoral. Attempts to divide people like this have consumed too much of our politics over the past six years." - Statement of Senator Barack Obama

[Clarkie1]

30. I just said I'd vote for her! Did you read the OP? nt

[AtomicKitten]

31. all for one and one for all

I will vote for her if she is the nominee.