Do You Consider Hugo Chavez an Enemy of America?

[Bullet1987]

Yea, he's said some pretty bad things about the President, he's called him an imperialist (which I happen to agree with) and some harsher things...but does that make him our enemy? Venezuela is the 4th largest oil donor to the US...so according to the media, it's ok for him to give us his oil. The media points to his close relationship with Fidel Castro and that he met Saddam Hussein (something Donald Rumsfeld also did when we were giving them weapons as quite as it's kept now).

My big question is, outside of Chavez's anti-Bush rants...what's the big fuss about this guy?

[niyad]

1. no--I consider him a man of intelligence and caring about his people, and a man who just happens to

have a very clear-eyed view of the monster currently squatting in the people's house.

[Eric J in MN]

2. I don't think Chavez hates Americans.

I think he has a low opinion of George W. Bush.

Like most Americans do.

[SusanaMontana41]

69. Bingo

n/t

[Poll_Blind]

3. No. Hugo dislikes Bush and will excoriate him any chance he gets BUT...

...he's got no beef with Americans, themselves. His deeeeeeeeeeeply-discounted heating oil for poor in America should be evidence of that.

  No, he just likes getting under the skin of assholes and irritating them. After all, those same assholes supported his overthrow and wouldn't have minded if the coup plotters put a bullet through his skull. And yet...his people returned him to power.

PB

[John Q. Citizen]

4. Nope, he just isn't going to be punked by a bunch of empire building Neo-cons.

[tnlefty]

5. No.

I don't know what the fuss is about, and I don't care what he says about Bush**, afterall, the Bush** cabal did try that whole coup thing on his ass.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. I am unaware of any activity he has undertaken that harms Americans.

[Jack Sprat]

7. No way. He hates the Bush Crime Family and

so do I. Chavez is hated by the Bush/Cheney Syndicate because he is honest and isn't a damn liar and thief like they are. I wish our country had Chavez instead of Bush as President. I know that I would rather have Chavez as a friend. I can only think of two national leaders to compare to Bush and that would be Adolph Hitler and Pol Pot.

Without Chavez's aid to many Americans in depressed areas, they would freeze in winter. Chavez has set up an energy assistance program to help impoverished Americans living in a Fascist state.

[whistle]

8. Only after the Bush crime family which includes all of BushCo, neocons

....relgious Dominionists, the Federalist Society and other such internal like minded slime mold!

[El Supremo]

9. No, he is a primadonna.

Once he fulfills his socialist bullshit and actually helps the poor in Venezuela, then I will respect him.

[jaysunb]

19. Too bad the poor people of that country don't agree w/ you.

Socialisim can actually work for some societies....

[rman]

49. How are his socialist policies "bullshit"?

The Venezuelan economy is growing faster than any economy that has been 'helped' or is being 'helped' by IMF/WTO policies.
Thanks to Chavez, the poverty created by his predecessors has been greatly reduced. The poor in Venezuela now no longer are lacking food, education and healthcare. Why are you suggesting Chavez has not/is not helping the poor?

[ProudDad]

58. Gee, elsupremo

never got back to you :shrug:

[Prophet 451]

10. Nope

I have to love anyone who's so obviously made it their mission in life to fuck with Bush's head.

[unkachuck]

11. no way....

....dear, sweet Hugo is only trying to help the poor people (like me) of Venezuela....Barbera Walters and her 'handlers' are the Enemies of America....

[Colobo]

12. I dislike him, but he's irrelevant to America in my view.

[rman]

50. dupe deleted

[rman]

51. Supplying cheap heating fuel to US poor is irrelevant to the US?

How's that?

[jwirr]

13. No. It is corporate America that see him as an enemy. He cared

about his people and nationalized the oil resources in his country. Because of that the oil cartel that runs this county hates him.

[Stargazer99]

35. Like good lemmings some citizens in America think

Chaevz is the enemy...too ignorant or not paying attention to what is going on because Chaevz is only the enemy of THE WELL TO DO...wake up people.

[damntexdem]

14. I like him, although he's a bit demogogic.

And I buy my gas from CITGO whenever I can.

I consider Dubya and Cheney to be enemies of America.

[1932]

31. I've been watching two documentaries over and over the last couple days

both are on google videos -- Venezuela Bolivarano (I think) and The Revolution Will Not Be Televised and both movies make it perfectly clear that it's not about Chavez. It's about the people and about Democracy.

[niallmac]

15. I like him.

He speaks his mind. He doesn't pander like a poodle
like Blair.
We f**k over Latin American for a century
and everybody is all sensitive because he
calls America out?
We foment death squads in the name of the fascist
governments we need to protect our interests from
god forbid 'real democracy'
We militarize the place with specially trained goons
and military hardware to fight a drug war that
we as a nation support with billions of our consumer
dollars amidst a suspicious self promoting DEA budget.
Oh yeah, Hugo, your so out of line here.
Be a nice man and kiss our *ss.

[Colobo]

16. Many Latin Americans don't like him, either (me included)

So, it's not like everyone worships big mouth Chavez down there.

[niallmac]

17. Just speaking for me up here.

[Colobo]

18. Cool

[TheConstantGardener]

21. People who can feed their families (millions more) may like him

His enormous social gains for the people of venezuela might account for him winning fair elections so easily.

[Colobo]

22. I respect that; I still don't like him.

[TheConstantGardener]

25. Hey man, free country

No problem

[ProudDad]

27. Pretty much everyone likes him

but the rich; the Central and South American oligarchy.

[Colobo]

36. Wrong. In his country that might be the case

but I can assure you, many middle class and poor Latin Americans in different parts of Latin American don't like him. Peruvians (poor country) voted against Ollanta Humala (Chavez backed him up), Colombia has a centrist government who depises Chavez, most Central American nations except Nicaragua have centrists governments who are against Chavez (and quite pro- US). Even Mexico chose Calderón over populist Obrador (super close, but still... in such a poor nation, half of the country rejected Chavez's style populism in Obrador).

Michele Bachelet in Chile, Lula in Brazil, Kirschner in Argentina, Vásquez in Uruguay... that's my kind of Latin American left.

[TheConstantGardener]

39. Colombia has a terrorist government..

From what I understand my friend.

Also do you dislike obrador and morales?

[Colobo]

57. Terrorist government?

I have a very favorable opinion of Uribe, but anyway.

I personally like Obrador, and was rooting for him to win. The fact that he lost, or that half of the Mexican population voted for Calderon is revealing.

In the case of Evo Morales, I'd say he is necessary, given the historical socioeconomic and political circumstances of Bolivia. Not my cup of tea in terms of personal preference, but I understand how necessary he is.

[ProudDad]

59. You're postulating crooked, rigged elections

as the "voice of the people"??? This is a gauge of how "Latin Americans" feel about Hugo Chavez?

I already covered the tiny "middle class" -- they are primarily the vassals of the oligarchy and, of course, wouldn't like Chavez. It was the middle class in Venezuela that served as the tool of the coup plotters. They don't count...

Even if those elections weren't crooked (although they probably WERE, especially in Mexico) there are a lot more conditions those folks have to consider than Chavez' "backing" or non-backing.

The biggest elephant in the middle of the living room Big Brother in the north. Most of these folks learned from Nicaragua's lesson, among others, of the 80's/90's that taking any other road than the one of obeisance to the U.S.ofA. is very dangerous to their health.

But, you go ahead and ignore the wave of the future. You have that right.

[rman]

48. The majority likes him

And increasingly the middle class is starting to realize that the poor having more to spend is in fact good for the economy - much better than trickle-down.

[Greyhound]

53. Would you please elaborate? I am as informed about Chavez's Venezuela

as a non-Spanish speaking American can be, but would value the logical opinion one that has first-hand knowledge and no ax to grind. From what I've been able to learn he has made significant progress toward a more equitable society and has helped far more people than he has hurt.

[1932]

20. He's a role model for liberals everywhere.

[Colobo]

23. So, if I don't like him I can't be considered a liberal?

[TheConstantGardener]

26. No, just find another role model

lol

[ProudDad]

28. You haven't told us why you don't like him

Inquiring minds would like to know...

[1932]

29. Why don't you like him?

[southerncrone]

24. HE was willing to send oil to Northeast, when OUR administration

was willing to gouge the hell out of them for the oil! I call that a generous & gracious act. More then we get from our own leader!

[TSIAS]

30. I like Chavez

I watched a PBS segment on Venezuela and Chavez. It seems like the poor love him, but the elitist are the ones oppposed to him.

[Ecumenist]

32. no, I don't.

That dubious honour goes to the criminals in Washington DC.

[DFLer4edu]

33. Chavez and Bush are both the same in that they both have a fundamental lack of respect for democracy

Bush came to power and retained it through two fishy elections to say the least. Chavez is a former military officer who once tried to take power through a coup. We are all familiar with Bush's efforts to gut the Constitution, so I won't list off his exploits. It will never cease to amaze me that so many DUers like Chavez though.

Here are a couple articles that do a fairly good job of outlining Chavez' total disregard for democratic processes and institutions. My personal pet peeve being his desire to rule forever, without term limits, but there is a much longer list than this.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20051205-094913-3886r.htm
The best quotes from this op ed is probably: "Mr. Chavez maneuvered to stack Venezuela's Supreme Court with loyalists -- a move Human Rights Watch characterized as a 'political takeover.'"

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4F370EFC-FA0E-41B7-B625-2AA4BED90740.htm

The best lines from this recent Al Jazeera (not known for being Bush fans)story are: "Venezuela's congress has granted Hugo Chavez, the president, powers to rule by decree..."

and

"Chavez is forging a single party to lead his radical reforms, stripping the central bank of autonomy and seeking indefinite re-election."

You may like Chavez because he is a thorn in Bush's side, but he has the same basic fundamental lack of respect for the democratic process and institutions as Bush does, he is just on the left instead of the right. It's like when Putin took the Bush administration to task we all cheered, but few pointed out how repressive Putin is. September 11th should have taught the US once and for all that the enemy of our enemy is not our necessarily our friend.

[1932]

38. Since when is reducing a dozen left parties into one antidemocratic?

Do you think that splitting the Democratic Party into a dozen small, weak parties, while the Republican remained one party would improve American democracy???

And the UK didn't have an autonomous central bank until Blair's first term, and some people feel like that's not good for Democracy.

And you might be surprised if you read the list of narrow areas within which the decree powers apply. One of them is to pass laws that devolve political power to community governments.

As for "stacking" the supreme court -- the Venezuelan Constitution ALLOWS IT. Venezuela, unlike the US, believes that the courts should reflect CONTEMPORARY political thought rather than the political ideas of failied oligachic periods in the country's history.

By the way, you do know the Washington Times is probably the most right wing paper in the US, don't you?

[TheConstantGardener]

41. Is the DFL antidemocratic?

?

[rman]

44. Chavez' coup attempt had large popular support,

and he was pardoned due to public pressure.

He came to power and remained in power thus far due to democratic elections.

The extension of the term limit is conditional: only if the opposition boycots the elections. Also it is not unlimited.

Rule by decree is nothing new: Venezuela before Chavez and other nations have also been using rule by decree. Also it is limited in time and limited to economic reform.

[Greyhound]

54. Just so you know, the very first thing any country that seeks to help

its citizens that are on the lower half of the economic scale must do is to strip the central bank of its "autonomy" (a cynical euphemism used in place of accurate term of usury). Without that nothing can change, that's how the system is set up.

[AshevilleGuy]

34. He is correct on the bush regime, and President Castro,

but if it's true that he supports the fundamentalist regime in Iran, then I do not like that! Theocracies of ANY religion are BAD, m'kay???

[rman]

45. US presidents since WW2 have been supporting a theocracy:

Saudi Arabia, where the state religion is one of those radical forms of Islam that breeds terrorists.

For that you should dislike Clinton as much as you dislike Chavez.

[AshevilleGuy]

46. I know.

I said in 1990 that if we must attack a country in that part of the world, do Saudi! Saddam was brutal but he was secular in comparison, and was preventing the religious madness we are now seeing in Iraq.

I don't really dislike Chavez and I certainly do not see him as a threat to the US. I wish that President Clinton had had the fortitude to tell the Saudi assholes to go fuck themselves, and let their people (especially their women) be free of that bullshit; they must wear those suffocating black costumes there, where the temperature gets to 120!! But it was all about the oil, of course.

As I said, I detest ALL religious oppression and I do not give a shit which religion it is!

[melody]

37. Not as big an enemy to America as Bush is n/t

[Unvanguard]

40. I don't think the concept of "America" as an entity is coherent enough

to speak of "enemies of America."

Chavez does not seem particularly hostile to the US population, but for good reason, he does certainly staunchly dislike the leadership.

[cadmium]

84. well stated. They say the "enemy" like the world is a game of

Space Invaders. I remember when a reporter asked Mohammed Ali why he was helping the "enemy" Ali said to the reporter "the Viet Cong arent my enemy. You're my enemy." It's hyperbole but this word the "enemy" gets thrown around so much it is meaningless.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. Not Chavez's biggets fan, but I can definitely say absolutely not

I don't agree with many of the things he's done, but I do recognize that his regime is far better than any right wing one that might otherwise be in power in Venezuela.

As far as being a threat to America, I honestly don't see how.

[Cobalt-60]

43. No. He poses no threat to American Citizens.

Indeed he puts his petroleum where his mouth is.
He won't roll for American corporations, though.
So those faceless machines will stop at nothing to slime him.

[Nutmegger]

47. Enemy of America? Hardly!

Chavez is a true leader who has provided for the people of his country and of this country with discounted oil refused to us from the American corporate pigs.

The Chavez-haters will continue to bring up malicious arguments that are propagated to discredit him. What he said at the UN was true, was it not? Bush Inc launched the coup against him and he's suppose to act all nice? By the way, did you notice the applause he got after he said that? That fact alone is another reminder of our horrible reputation in the world thanks to Bush Inc.

I have no problems with Chavez. It's time someone starts thinking about the poor and unfortunate.

Viva Chavez!

[EminenceFront5]

52. Chavez not the enemy yet... But he will be

If the neocons are in power long enough after finishing in Iraq and then Iran, we will need a new enemy to fight to keep our wonderful military industrial complex running in tip top form. Who better than Hugo? Watch the, "Hugo is a threat to our Democracy", campaign commence once we are through in the middle east.

[TankLV]

87. As a "former conservative" - I don't' think you've really changed at all...

keep taking those drugs and telling yourself your a good guy - even if your actions prove otherwise...

the dissonance must cause awful headaches..

[Arugula Latte]

55. Bushco. and friends are the enemy of America and the Constitution.

Chavez? I love the guy.

[gravity]

56. No, an enemy of Venezuela

[ProudDad]

60. Just for the record

Hugo Chavez IS an "American"...

[Alexander]

61. No, but he is a little too authoritarian for my taste.

Of course, given my choice, I'd take somewhat authoritarian socialism over somewhat authoritarian corporatist fascism any day of the week.

But I'd rather not have either one.

[Greyhound]

64. Considering the country and its history, he is a true patriot.

We tend to forget that South America has suffered terribly under our "guidance" for the last 120 years or so. Our unrelenting exploitation of the people and their resources is the primary reason we have an "American way of life".

[ProudDad]

71. I honestly would like to know

how you've concluded that Chavez is "authoritarian"?

---------------------

Noun 1. authoritarian - a person behaves in an tyrannical manner; "my boss is a dictator who makes everyone work overtime"

dictator

Big Brother - an authoritarian leader and invader of privacy, disciplinarian, martinet, moralist - someone who demands exact conformity to rules and forms

oppressor - a person of authority who subjects others to undue pressures

Adj.

1. authoritarian - characteristic of an absolute ruler or absolute rule; having absolute sovereignty; "an authoritarian regime"; "autocratic government"; "despotic rulers"; "a dictatorial rule that lasted for the duration of the war"; "a tyrannical government"

2. authoritarian - likened to a dictator in severity

3. authoritarian - expecting unquestioning obedience; "he was imperious and dictatorial"; "the timid child of authoritarian parents"; "insufferably overbearing behavior toward the waiter"

-----------------

NONE of the above definitions apply to President Chavez...

Do you have any non-right-wing authoritative proof of your assertions?? Can you supply some reasonable links that support your opinion?

Have you actually seen Sr. Chavez hassle a waiter? :)

[Hippo_Tron]

92. It's difficult to find non-right wing criticism of Chavez

Because middle of the road assessments are not usually done. Either the guy is an evil commie or a champion of the people. Chavez is an interesting figure in my view. I think people think of him as a dictator because he is a revolutionary figure and has a cult of personality that follows him. In America, we're accustomed to our Presidents being liked by roughly 50% of the country and hated by the other 50% (although in Chimpy's case it's more like hated by 70%).

It really bothers me that the debate about Chavez on DU is so emotional. The pro-Chavez people seem to believe that the other side has been brainwashed by RW media and the anti-Chavez people think that the other side is fooling themselves just because Chavez doesn't like Bush. I think that many people on both sides have arrived at their conclusions intelligently and that Chavez and his impact are far too complicated to be truly black and white.

[PassingFair]

62. I don't think he dislikes Americans

I think he HATES NEOCONS.

Don't we all?

[roody]

63. I love Hugo. He is a man of the people, whatever

their country.

[brainshrub]

65. Taxes. They hate him because of taxes.

Explained here:

http://www.brainshrub.com/mom-hates-chavez-explained">Why Mom Hates Chavez (Or: Chavez hatred explained to Americans)

[NDP]

66. No. No one can do more to the United States than Bush can.

[enough already]

67. He hates Bush....so take a number

Chimpus Khan is the true enemy of America.

[MasonJar]

68. Hugo Chavez is the exact opposite of GWB; that is recommendation

enough for me!

[Sybil_23mist]

70. Well, I am not sure if I agree with everything he says

but he doesn't threaten our way of living :shrug:

[ProudDad]

73. DAMN, I sure hope

he threatens "our way of living".

Our way of living strips the world of 25% of its resources for 3% of its people.

Our way of living requires our military in armed camps in a majority of the countries of the world in order to "protect our interests" (ripping off the world's resources) and we pay a huge tax burden for those legions of the new Rome.

Our way of living is stripping the world of its lungs (rain forests), poisoning our water and air and planting radioactive materials in our mother Earth.

Our way of living is causing Global Climate Change.

Our way of living doesn't allow us to have a decent Health Care system.

Our way of living gives huge tax breaks and income redistribution to the rich and screw the rest of us.

I'd like to see SOMEONE do away with "our way of living"!!!

[jefferson_dem]

72. I wouldn't call him an "enemy of America" but i don't trust or respect Hugo

any more than i trust or respect Chimpy. Two peas in a pod...

[ProudDad]

74. You've made this kind of statement before

what's the basis for this knee-jerk reaction?

[jefferson_dem]

75. The only "knee-jerk reaction" i've noted is yours to my post.

Amazing but typical. Are DUers not allowed to question Hugo without being labelled reactionary or ill-informed? The OP asked for general attitudes regarding Hugo. I offered mine. Chill.

[ProudDad]

89. I reiterate, what is the basis for your knee-jerk reaction...

The OP asked, "My big question is, outside of Chavez's anti-Bush rants...what's the big fuss about this guy?"

That is, why are you down on him?

You said, "i don't trust or respect Hugo any more than i trust or respect Chimpy. Two peas in a pod..."

I ask you for the basis upon which you don't "trust or respect" him...

You didn't offer any reasons just the knee-jerk reaction (that I've seen you give before in Hugo posts) that you don't like him...

Uh, we get that...


I now respectfully ask, "Why?"

Upon what facts do you base your opinion?

Any links to his awful behavior that you can supply? What part of his program of using the oil revenue of Venezuela to help the people of Venezuela don't you like?

[rman]

77. "Two peas in a pod"

How is Chavez similar to Bush?
I see no commonalities and a lot of differences between the two.

[jefferson_dem]

79. Obviously, they come from different sides of the political isle...

but their personal tendencies and some tactics are very similar, in my view.

Demagogic flourishes. Ideological extremism at the expense of sound reasonableness. Hostile toward political dissent and freedom of speech/press. To name a few…

[ProudDad]

90. Hostile toward

U.S. sponsered coups and their plotters.

You got him there, boy!

How many innocent civilians in his own or anyone else's country has he killed?? You're really reaching for that "personal tendencies and some tactics are very similar, in my view" Your view appears VERY limited...

Demagogic flourishes... every politician in the world -- big deal... He backs them up with good deeds unlike the pResident in the U.S.

Ideological extremism at the expense of sound reasonableness -- he's remaking his country into a much better place for the vast majority of the Venezuelan people. If that's extremism, give me some of that here!!! (I mean it, I want Socialism for all of us here not just the rich and the corporations).

Hostile toward political dissent? Right... That's why he locked up and tortured all of the coup plotters. Oh, that's right, he didn't. :sarcasm:

Freedom of speech/press -- let's see, he denied a license renewal to the TV station that supported the coup and has lied about and slandered the Venezuelan Government at every turn. You got anything important???

[rman]

93. How is Chavez ideologically extreme?

Is it because he opposes US foreign policy? Because he opposes IMF/WTO economic policies?
Or what?
The 'opposing freedom of speech' and 'hostile toward political dissent' talking points have been debunked several times over already,

[Hippo_Tron]

91. I see Ahmadinejad as very similar to Bush, but not Chavez

Domestically I don't agree with some of the things that he has done, but Chavez hasn't done very much saber rattling on the international level. Yes he's bashed Bush and been friendly toward Ahmadinejad but it's not like he's holding staged Death to American and Death to Israel rallies.

Ahmadinejad and Bush are both stubborn spoiled brats who like to saber rattle and I think that Iran and the US will be able to have better relations once these children are out of power.

[Raksha]

76. Nope, I like Chavez.

George W. Bush is the real enemy of America.

[hippiechick]

78. Not at all n/t

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

80. Bush is the enemy of America, while Chavez is a friend and ally of progressives

The American elites are as much our enemy as the Venezuelan elites are enemies of Chavez.

[rockymountaindem]

81. I'm not a fan, but I don't consider him an enemy of the US either n/t

[Zorro]

82. Yes

He is no friend of the USA.

He is a menace to democracy and democratic movements.

Don't be enamoured with him just because he doesn't like this administration.

He is an authoritarian cultist, just like Bush.

[IsItJustMe]

83. nope, he's just trying to take care of his people the best way he knows how under tough conditions.

[TankLV]

85. That's just plain stupid. An "enemy" of bush* just like I AM, sure...

but bush* is NOT "america"...

[zulchzulu]

86. My car only takes CITGO gasoline

I'd rather run out of gas than use BP or Exxon fuel...

[Radical Activist]

88. George Bush is not America.

He's an enemy of Bush. Not America.

[TriMetFan]

94. All I can say about....

Chavez or about Castro is that when Americans need help like: oil to heat their homes Chavez gave them heat, when Americans needed help just after hurricane Katrina, Castro had sent a medical ship to help with the wounded Americans. we can never say the our so called Monkey Prez. Bush has ever helped the poor in our Nation. Bush was the one that was eating cake when people were dying in New Orleans. So who is the real enemy of The United States? Bush is.