Stopping the War Can Wait! Vote Obama in '08!

[2tr4nqued]

Spread the Word!



Spread the Graphic!

In solidarity with those who are against the war in Iraq and who know that centrist Democrats just perpetuate the war. The right is trying to drag the centrists to their side. We have to work to drag them to our side. It's a tug of war. Pull till they come to our side, or until they break.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchtv]

2. No thanks,

I will vote for Edwards

[ripple]

3. I disagree with your tactics, but welcome to DU

There is one candidate to the left of Obama and he has 0% chance of being elected.

For what you appear to be trying to accomplish, it seems counterproductive to trash the only viable democratic candidate who actually opposed the war from the beginning.

[2tr4nqued]

5. What is my tactic?

My tactic is to help embarrass the Democrats so that they are forced to change their position. I am not interested in continuing to be blackmailed by the Democrats. It is time we turned the tables and started blackmailing them instead. Instead of them saying "We can be as bad as we want because if you don't vote for us, you'll get the Republicans who are slightly worse," it needs to change to us the voters saying, "If you don't get your position right, we are going to make you lose, so get your position right."

At some point, you have to say no to being blackmailed.

[Sparkly]

6. "we are going to make you lose"

Who's "we?"

[2tr4nqued]

7. Those who are against the war and who do not

put party over principle, to name just one group.

[Sparkly]

14. Is that group large enough to make up a majority of all representatives' constituencies? nt

[ripple]

11. Well for one thing,

Obama has a plan for getting the troops out by the spring of 2008- well before the November election. So your premise is flawed from the outset.

I don't see any blackmail coming from the democrats- I see policy positions aimed at extracting us from Iraq. There is no one way to do that and as a democratic constituency, we are certainly not in lock-step about just how we think that should occur.

If you disagree with Obama's plan for getting us out of Iraq, that is certainly your prerogative, but your declaration that Obama would continue the war if elected is unequivocally false and a ridiculous smear against a democrat that has taken a principled stance against the war from the very beginning.

[Czolgosz]

10. One candidate left of Obama? I count Dodd, Edwards, and Kucinich (and Clark if he runs).

[ripple]

16. I don't consider Dodd and Edwards to the left of Obama

Kucinich is, but I don't consider him viable. Clark's expressed positions are progressive, but they haven't always been. For that matter, neither have Kucinich's (opposition to abortion rights) or Edwards'(IWR co-sponsorship). Dodd also voted for the IWR, favored NAFTA and CAFTA (I believe), but has been progressive on health care and other issues.

I guess I should have said that Obama has a more progressive record than the other candidates, with the exception of Kucinich (excluding abortion rights, which Kucinich previously opposed).

[Czolgosz]

21. Obama voted for Bush's Energy Policy Act (2005) which weakened environmental and public safety

protections like the Clean Water Act and the Public Utility Holding Company Act, which protected consumers from fraud and abuse by utility companies.

To his credit, Dodd got that one right.

Obama voted for the Class Action Fairness Act which overturned 200 years of consumer protection laws.

Obama has a history of supporting charter schools programs which undermine the broader goal of fully funding and fixing the public schools we have.

In his book, The Audacity of Hope, Obama says "I also think my party can be smug, detached, and dogmatic at times. I believe in the free market, competition, and entrepreneurship, and think no small number of government programs don’t work as advertised" and "we Democrats are just, well, confused. There are those who still champion the old-time religion, defending every New Deal and Great Society program from Republican encroachment, achieving ratings of 100 percent from the liberal interest groups."

These quotes hardly sound like someone to the left of everyone but Kucinich.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think Obama comes from the DLC end of the party, but he seems identifiably to the right of Edwards or Dodd (Obama is sufficiently progressive in my view that I'll enthusiastically support him if Edwards or Kucinich leaves the race). I'm certainly not the only one to think so. Read, for example, Alexander Cockburn's great article "Obama: As He Rises, He Falls" in the May 8, 2006 issue of The Nation (link: http://www.thenation.com/docprem.mhtml?i=20060508&s=cockburn). Or the non-partisan issue chart prepared by On The Issues:

OBAMA:



EDWARDS/DODD/KUCINICH:

[Jai4WKC08]

29. Also Clark

http://www.ontheissues.org/Wesley_Clark.htm

Altho other charts I've seen place him to the well to the left of Edwards.

[Jai4WKC08]

28. When have Clark's positions not been progressive?

True, he voted for Reagan, but that was solely because he agreed with Reagan's national defense posture against the Soviets.

I'm guessing you have no idea what his other positions were at that time. I don't know all of them either, since active duty military don't usually express policy opinions in public.

But I do know that Clark won an environmental award in 1991, that he had a reputation for defending civil rights well before that, and that his son tells us that he (the father) was more liberal than he (the son) was back in the early 80s when the son first got out of college.

I'm guessing Clark was always pretty liberal. You know, there are a lot more liberals in the military than you'd probably think.

[NoPasaran]

20. And don't forget Gravel

Although even Kucinich makes him look like Kucinich.

[Czolgosz]

22. Gravel is good on the war, but he's more Libertarian than Democrat on most other issues and is not

at all progressive on his national sales tax scheme or his plan to privitize (i.e., eliminate) social security.

[NYCGirl]

4. Everyone's a comedian.

:eyes:

[onenote]

23. but not everyone is funny

[Adelante]

8. This day is turning damned

peculiar :crazy:

[Forkboy]

9. Subtlety isn't a strong suit I gather.

It's hard to be this obvious without actually setting yourself on fire.

[AtomicKitten]

12. wow

just wow

[Hav]

13. .

Making Dems lose who are against the war and giving more seats to the Repubs who started this mess? Brilliant tactic!

Welcome to the "Democrat Party", inventor of the circular firing squad.
Because it's just such a damn effective way to hit the target!

[2tr4nqued]

15. Blackmail, pure and simple.

I can't be blackmailed. But I can't speak for others.

[Sparkly]

17. "Blackmail?"

You wrote above:
"I am not interested in continuing to be blackmailed by the Democrats. It is time we turned the tables and started blackmailing them instead."

I don't understand why you feel Democrats (in Congress, I assume?) are trying to blackmail you.

I also don't see how you're proposing to blackmail them.

Could you explain?

:shrug:

[Ethelk2044]

18. His Post

His Post does not make sense. It seems he may be on something because Barack was against the war from the beginning. He statements are illogical

[Ethelk2044]

19. Newbie

Sounds like someone from Clinton campaign trying to smear.

[DubiousLee]

24. lol.

:)

[LSK]

25. your kidding me, right?

:shrug:

[Ethelk2044]

26. Nope

[Adelante]

27. Clinton supporters are generally smarter

than this.

[Moderator]

30. Locking

This is flamebait.