Kerry says he is to Dean's RIGHT!!!

[TLM]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3555359,00.html

Kerry Warns Dean Has No Chance Vs. Bush

Saturday December 27, 2003 3:46 PM
By WILL LESTER
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - With a month to go before the New Hampshire primary, John Kerry says voters must choose between Democratic front-runner Howard Dean or a more centrist candidate like himself.

The Massachusetts senator said he would fare better than Dean against President Bush in November.

``Two roads have diverged in the New Hampshire woods,'' Kerry said in a speech prepared for delivery Saturday in Manchester. ``One of them takes us toward retreat from our responsibility in the world, our responsibility to working families, our responsibility to talk straight to the American people - and our obligation to win their confidence and their votes next November.''

[Rose Siding]

1. I saw that but there is no actual quote

and the rest of the article doesn't really seem to bear out the highlighted sentence. I suspect it was a lazy reporter's "impression" or a diabolical reporter's plot- tee hee

[Raya]

8. Dean Supporters like to play the Media Game: Use Media, not Facts to Attac

Dean has certainly "positioned" himself to the left of everyone.

Not based on his record, or his policies, but as part of a calculated
strategy to co-opt the anti-war and progressive movement. Truth be known, he may be to the right to Lieberman. Who knows.


Any moment after NH he may become a pick-up driving, flag waving (not sure what flag), God-fearing country doctor in order to win
support in the South.

[TLM]

11. You know Kerry's DLC accused Dean of being a fringe leftist...

care to cite the comments from Kerry taking the DLC to task for that and pointing out they were wrong?

Seems to me Kerry is all too happy to help float the perception of Dean being to far left to win.

[Bombtrack]

18. it's Dean's DLC too

and Dean governed a hell of a lot closer to DLC tenets than Kerry has voted

[TLM]

35. Kerry is a current member of the DLC... Dean is not.

And also the DLC was not a bad thing in the 90's... it wasn't until about 98-2000 that the DLC really crossed the line from being centrists to being repuke apologists.

[SahaleArm]

52. What about welfare reform in '94? n/t

[TLM]

WHat about it.... Dean did welfare reform the right way

unlike Clinton, Dean had job training, daycare, and healthcare attached to the reform so that folks on welfare could get out and not have to worry about their kids getting sick or not being able to afford a babysitter/daycare, etc.

One of the posters here on DU was on welfare in Vermont at the time... and now thanks to Dean's reform, she's off welfare and working.

[SahaleArm]

75. Source that they were tied together not used by the same person?

Oh he did argue for block grants that would decrease costs and benefits.

[TLM]

83. Could you try that again?

And this time structure your question within the framework of the English language? I have no idea what you're asking.

[SahaleArm]

84. Can you give me a source on your information?

Block grants were used to cut costs, the results were loss in benefits as well as coverage.

[TLM]

95. Here's a good one on the block grant issue

http://www.cse.org/processor/printer.php?issue_id=1489

Welfare Reform

In Vermont’s welfare system, Dean supported a 20 hour work week and the caseload dropped 40 percent. Federal law now mandates a 30 hour work week to be eligible for the program. Considering his liberal tag in the media, Dean is surprisingly open to some welfare reform. For example, Dean supports administering welfare at the state level through federal block grants. However, he thinks that funding should be increased and is adamantly opposed to any more funding cuts. He also supports the flexibility granted to the program by Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) grants. However, like with the other block grants, he would provide these programs with even more money despite the reduction in case loads. He argues that the services now being provided are more expensive than simple cash grants. He would also like to see food stamps, child support, child welfare, housing, the Workforce Investment Act, and Medicaid all connected to the current trends in welfare reform.

[SahaleArm]

99. Right caseload dropped 40% - Benefits were cut for those...

working less than 30-hours. The end result didn't matter between 1992-2000 when the economy was cranking out 22-million jobs. The results of a growing economy always mask the effects of social spending cuts.

[TLM]

104. Did you even read that... the FEDERAL limit is 30 hours

Dean's plan in Vermont was 20 hours.


Jesus f-ign christ, grasp at straws much?

[SahaleArm]

114. So did he support it and pass it at the state level?

Or did he defer to 30 hour federal welfare requirements? That's what is unclear...

[Rose Siding]

38. I AM a Dean supporter so...

I guess I just proved you wrong with your sweeping condemnation, huh?

Check out TLM's post 7 and you'll see how how the lazy press uses this method of distortion against dems regularly.

You ought to re-think that false cliche you're repeating about how Dean has "positioned" himself-

snip>
"I think it's pathetic that I'm considered the left-wing liberal," Dean said. "It shows just how far to the right this country has lurched."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A11710-2003Jul5¬Found=true

Whoops! The truth, hiding right there in the WA freaking Post!

[TLM]

9. That's funny since... this is not an actual quote either...

He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.


The underlined segment is not a quote, but a paraphrase. Yet that's not stopped Kerry supporters from using it to attack Dean as if it were a direct quote.


And the fact is Kerry's comment later in that Guardian piece did make it Clear he was saying he was to the right of Dean, both on the war and taxes.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MGKrebs]

2. Now if only he could get an Aerosmith endorsement,

he'd be all set!

Sorry. Feeling frisky. I like Kerry.

[Hoppin_Mad]

3. More GOP Rovian fear mongering and from a once-solid Dem

What a disgrace.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoppin_Mad]

77. I'm glad you're admitting to it !

[janx]

4. The road less traveled originated in Vermont, Kerry.

Put that in your Harley and smoke it!

I have to tell you, I can't stand it when politicians make inaccurate and ill-timed literary allusions.

Kerry just dropped another notch in my "book." (Sorry--couldn't resist.)

Roads diverging in the New Hampshire woods indeed!

[Padraig18]

5. That's really going to disappoint the "Kerry's a TRUE liberal" crowd.

LOL!:P

[IndianaGreen]

10. I dare say that if Kerry is to Dean's right, then he is where Tom Ridge is

Kerry doesn't know who he wants to be. He has milked his Kerry VVAW image for so long that he doesn't even remember the young man that opposed the war.

[Padraig18]

17. He wants to be President so desperately, he's forgotten who he is.

It's really rather sad...

[janx]

28. And he's trying to sound like Robert f'ing Frost!

It's beyond ridiculous.

[TLM]

37. Well he's trying to find a nice way to say that he supports Bush's war

and supports some of Bush tax cuts... without actually saying it.

Makes it easier to waffle later.

[Padraig18]

42. He doesn't 'waffle', he 'nuances'.

:P

[windansea]

50. kind of like "evolving" right?? n/t

[TLM]

60. The difference is evolving takes like 10 years

waffeling takes only as long as it takes for the next set of polls to come out... or for saddam to be captured.

[SahaleArm]

64. It took less than two years - since the start of the race n/t

[TLM]

66. LOL! Yet you do not list a single issue or cite a quote or position

just insist that is the case.

Let me know when you can back up your claims...

[SahaleArm]

72. You mean Dean was Pro-Union, Anti-Nafta, Anti-Corporate...

Anti-War, populist candidate in 2001 when he was a member of the DLC? His presidential platform and rhetoric started in 2002, that's easily sourced. But in 2001 what were his positions?

[Code_Name_D]

76. I just have to laugh

When I read some one with a Clark sig question Dean's loilty to the democratic party by trying to paint him as being too close to the DLC. When the Panicea Man himself sold himself to speak fondly of the PNACers at the Lincone Dinner.

Or dose getting paied to say thoes things make it all right?

[SahaleArm]

78. We're talking about Dean not Clark - stay on point n/t

[TLM]

92. Actually we were talking about Kerry, and you tired to change the subject

to Dean.

So why whine about someone else changing the subject to Clark.

[SahaleArm]

96. Follow the thread - I was responding to your assertion about Dean n/t

[TLM]

100. Funny I follow the thread and the first mention of Dean by name was

by you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=32180&mesg_id=32376&page=

[SahaleArm]

116. Then who were you referring to in the parent post?

Who took 10 years to evolve?

[TLM]

90. First off, you're not even characterising Dean's positions correctly now..

Dean is not now Anti-NAFTA, nor was he before the election. Dean supported NAFTA and still does. Wanting to add protection for workers and for the enviornment does not make one anti-NAFTA any more than wanting to add seatbelts to a car make you anti-automobiles.

Dean is not now Anti-Corporate, nor was he before the election. Dean supported business and still does. Wanting to prevent corporate abuses and tax evasion does not make one anti-corporate any more than wanting to prevent infanticide makes you anti-procreation.

While Dean is not anti-war and has said so countless times, he did oppose the war in Iraq for numerous reasons and did so from the start.

Dean has always been pro-union and his record in vermont reflects that.

Wellstone Award Recipient - Howard Dean was the first recipient of AFL-CIO Paul Wellstone Award in recognition of his exceptional support of workers’ efforts to improve their lives by forming unions.

Ergonomics Support Governor Dean supported the federal adoption of OSHA ergonomics standards.

Fair Trade Support Governor Dean is a strong supporter of fair trade. Gov. Dean would insist that both new trade pacts and old trade pacts include human rights protections, international labor standards and environmental standards.

Drug-testing Governor Dean supported the AFL-CIO position on all drug-testing legislation.


Early Support from COPE - When Gov. Dean was a State Representative in the Vermont Legislature, he earned a 100% voting record from COPE. He also consistently received union endorsements throughout his five terms.

Pay Equity - Vermont passed legislation that expands federal wage discrimination laws into state jurisdiction and toughens the law so that the federal standards apply to all Vermont businesses.

Job Security - Over his 11 years as Governor, through two recessions, Howard Dean never relied on layoffs of state employees as a solution to budget shortfalls.

Prevailing Wage Governor Dean signed legislation that ensured a prevailing wage on all state projects.

Good Paying Jobs Under Governor Dean’s leadership, tens of thousands of new jobs were created and as an important step towards achieving a livable wage, Governor Dean signed two increases to the state minimum wage.

Workers Compensation Gov. Dean ensured that worker’s compensation benefits were not reduced as part of worker compensation reform. Many states were unable to provide this kind of worker protection.

Binding Arbitration Governor Dean supported making binding arbitration more available for municipal workers.

Striker Replacement Governor Dean signed a bill to prohibit permanent replacements for striking workers.

Agency Fee Protection Governor Dean fought for, and signed into law, agency fee protection for the state employees union, thereby providing union security for state employees.


Health Care Under Governor Dean’s leadership, virtually all of Vermont’s children now have health care coverage.

Family Leave In 1997, Governor Dean supported and signed into law the most sweeping family leave legislation in the country.

Child Care Vermont’s investment in Child Care Services has increased by 176% since 1991. Unlike some other states, there is no waiting list -- working parents, who qualify, can get childcare immediately.

[SahaleArm]

94. Right so the rhetoric which he often rolls back is just that.

He's pro-business DLC centrist democrat who's a populist in rhetoric only. Basically that's what your arguing because healthcare was mostly provided by federal government grants. He lived in a state with little population or economic diversity which makes life a little rosier than it really is.

[TLM]

98. Again... no issues no specific arguments... just shots in the dark.

I just proved your attacks were baseless.

Dean broke with the DLC because they moved too far to the right. The DLC attacked Dean as a "fringe leftist."

Being pro-business is a good thing... being pro-corporate abuses is a bad thing. Trying to act as if they are the same thing is dishonest and desperate.



"He lived in a state with little population or economic diversity "

Funny Dean governed over 600,000 people, and you say that is too small... while Clark ordered 200,000 people around and Clark supporters claim that means he has enough leadership experience to be president.

And Vermont has millionaires and people on welfare... I'd call that economic diversity... wouldn't you?


Now let me know if you can come up with something specific instead of just flinging crap at a wall and hoping something sticks.

[SahaleArm]

102. Editorialized facts...

It never takes into account the effects of the job creation from 1992-2000 on health insurance and the poor. The real question, not by rhetoric but by policy, where has Dean broken from his DLC positions?

[TLM]

105. Why not look at the DLC attacks on Dean as a fringe leftist...

to see where they differ?

Until you can cite something specific in your attacks, I'm not going to bother responding to your shots in the dark.

Get a substantive argument and then try again.

[SahaleArm]

117. Except they aren't berating him for being fringe...

Just shooting his mouth (crypto-Republicans, etc).

Our differences with Gov. Dean's campaign are substantive, not personal. His name-calling yesterday echoes the age-old tactic of some on the Democratic Left who don't want to come to grips with the substance of what New Democrats are telling the party. We think it's critically important that Democrats are credible on national security issues; open and inclusive on cultural issues; imaginative on ways to implement progressive values through new ideas; persuasive to voters who care about real-life results rather than partisan invective; rational as well as energized. Those Democrats who disagree with these views should make counter-arguments instead of adopting the brain-dead tactic of suggesting they are the only "real Democrats."

Didn't Dean just find Jesus on Christmas Day? Check.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=131&subid=192&contentid=252280

[janx]

44. But does his campaign have to be so stupid as to make

a literary allusion to a famous American writer from VERMONT?

You have to see the stupidity and irony here! It's beyond belief!

[WiseMen]

45. Kerry has a LONG AND PUBLIC RECORD of votes and positions.

He does not have the luxury of "sealed records" so he cannot
reinvent himself every morning after breakfast as some are wont to do.

I guess Dean posters are a little reluctant to look at Kerry's
record.

[TLM]

55. Kerry does not have the luxury of "sealed records" ???

Then please point me to where I can read all Kerry's personal correspondence and memos from his time in congress?

"I guess Dean posters are a little reluctant to look at Kerry's
record."

THat would be the record of voting for the patriot act, the no child left behind act, the 350 billion tax cut, and bush oil war in Iraq?

Kerry's record is exactly what Dean and his supporters HAVE been talking about when they call him bush light.

[Padraig18]

81. Kerry's records ARE sealed

You can't access any of his office records-- NONE. The FOIA does not apply to his office records. :eyes:

[maddezmom]

6. hmmm, perhaps editorial comment by reporter n/t

[JohnKleeb]

7. thats what it looked like to me to too frankly

[TLM]

14. Read kerry's quotes in the piece...

Kerry said ``we can't beat George Bush by being Bush-lite,'' referring to Dean's criticism of more centrist Democratic candidates.

``But we also won't beat George Bush by being light on national security, light on fairness for middle-class Americans or light on the values that make us Democrats.''




Kerry is basicaly placing himself to Dean's right on taxes and the war in Iraq.

[Bombtrack]

21. Kerry has the more populist tax plan

it's not to the right or the left, it's better for the middle class

[TLM]

39. It's keeping part of Bush tax fraud...

that's not right nor left, it's just plain cowardly and wrong.

[Bombtrack]

85. So child tax credits are wrong?

and the marriage penalty is right?

the middle class income tax burden isn't too low, Dean's increase is based on the notion that is, and they disagree probably by 5 to 1

[TLM]

101. The fact that Kerry supporters have to use Bush lies

about helping the middle class in order to prop up bush bad tax policy is a clear indication how devoid of real justification they are.


The Bush tax policy hurt the middle class and any real democrat would admit that.

Keeping any of that garbage is a bad plan.

We need to get rid of it, then look at putting fair tax policy into place for the middle cass and workign americans... not just trying to keep the scraps tossed to us from bush's table like Kerry wants.

[WiseMen]

59. How Simplistic and Deceptive. Respect Our Intelligence, Please.

[TLM]

63. If you find Kerry's words and posturing insulting to your intelligence...

take it up with him, not with me.

[BlueEyedSon]

12. Political compass

Try it yourself...
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

[windansea]

13. Kerry is more centrist...and to Dean's left

time for a nice bush-lite

[janx]

25. How is Kerry more centrist?

?

[windansea]

36. see the line in the middle??

that's the center........

[dsc]

41. Oh please

That is just to goofy for words. That isn't what that means and you well know it. If you honestly think the center of the country is somewhere to the right of Dean then you are just too far wrong to even be bothered with.

[windansea]

48. got to the site

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

you'll understand better...it's based on a hard scale and voting records...not American politics and shifting perceptions

[janx]

46. Please enlighten me by answering the question.

How is Kerry more centrist than Dean?

[SahaleArm]

54. The data is based on governance not hand-waving n/t

[janx]

57. That still doesn't answer my question.

I know that people here have been posting some compass based on someone's idea of how the candidates stack up on some ideological vote scale, but I'd like you to explain to me how Kerry is more centrist than Dean.

First of all, Dean has been a governor, so he would not have had the same amount of votes on the same matters as Kerry or Gep or some of the other candidates. I don't know how anyone could collect any kind of representative sampling of votes for comparison.

Let's just say the "compass" is a bit suspect. I don't even think that Dean should be on the "authoritarian" side of the scale.

[SahaleArm]

82. Governers vote on most national issues at a state level including...

Tax Reform
Welfare Reform
Corporate Welfare
Civil Unions
...

[janx]

86. Not to the extent that members of Congress do.

So the data would be imbalanced at the very least. The data would not be consistent.

This graph seems to be a projection of someone's opinion based on some votes rated rather randomly.

[SahaleArm]

91. It's based on his years as Governer which of course will not...

match his presidential platform. His governance was as a DLC-centrist because he was with the DLC until his bid for the presidency in 2002.

[TLM]

106. Care to cite some specific policy changes?

I bet not scone so far these kinds of attacks are based on nothing but garbage talking points from the Clark blogs.

It amazes me to see Clark supporters whining about Dean changing positions... even though that can;t seem to cite a single specific example of this massive switch up in policy by Dean. Yet their own guy, Clark, was whoring for republicans only 2 years ago and now says he's a democrat and these same folks have no problem with that.


Glass houses and all that.

[windansea]

56. the graph shows Kerry clearly to the left

and below Dean...it's based on actual votes and records

go to the site and learn more....take the test yourself!

[janx]

62. I don't care what the goddam graph shows.

I'd like you to tell me how Kerry is more centrist than Dean. I've taken these internet "tests" a hundred times. All I'm asking for is a straight answer.

[TLM]

65. The picture proves it.... look at the picture...

It is proof because it's a picture and pictures can not be wrong.


I took the test and it is garbage... none of the questions could be accurately answered based on voting records as they are personal opinion questions.

Somebody answered as they thought the candidates would answer and they call that scientific.

Desperate is what I call it.

[janx]

69. LOL!

I don't know if I can continue breathing I'm laughing so hard. But why can't anyone just answer the question?

[windansea]

93. wrong

We've scrutinised the statements and, more tellingly, the voting records of the hopefuls of the two major parties, in response to requests from many of our American visitors.
Within the United States , of course, real (and imagined) differences between the candidates are more greatly magnified. However, compared to other western democracies, especially those with a finely-tuned system of proportional representation, most mainstream political activity in the US is concentrated over a more narrow ideological range. We note too that conservative Democrats tend to have more in common with Republicans than with the liberals within their own ranks.

key phrase is "real and imagined"

here's another pretty picture for you....logical or no?

[TLM]

107. So Thatcher was to the right of HITLER????

And only slightly less authoritarian?

This thing is garbage.

[windansea]

112. read on

In the introduction, we explained the inadequacies of the traditional left-right line.

If we recognise that this is essentially an economic line it's fine, as far as it goes. We can show, for example, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot, with their commitment to a totally controlled economy, on the hard left. Socialists like Mahatma Gandhi and Robert Mugabe would occupy a less extreme leftist position. Margaret Thatcher would be well over to the right, but further right still would be someone like that ultimate free marketeer, General Pinochet.
That deals with economics, but the social dimension is also important in politics. That's the one that the mere left-right scale doesn't adequately address. So we've added one, ranging in positions from extreme authoritarian to extreme libertarian.

Both an economic dimension and a social dimension are important factors for a proper political analysis. By adding the social dimension you can show that Stalin was an authoritarian leftist (ie the state is more important than the individual) and that Gandhi, believing in the supreme value of each individual, is a liberal leftist. You can also put Pinochet, who was prepared to sanction mass killing for the sake of the free market, on the far right as well as in a hardcore authoritarian position. On the non-socialist side you can distinguish someone like Milton Friedman, who is anti-state for fiscal rather than social reasons, from Hitler, who wanted to make the state stronger, even if he wiped out half of humanity in the process.
The chart also makes clear that, despite popular perceptions, the opposite of fascism is not communism but anarchism (ie liberal socialism), and that the opposite of communism ( i.e. an entirely state-planned economy) is neo-liberalism (i.e. extreme deregulated economy)

[windansea]

68. refute the data and methodology used

it's very accurate and unbiased...and shows where our current political "center" really is.

[janx]

74. See post #65. It does none of that and is not scientific in the

least. The data aren't even consistent.

[windansea]

103. which data?

the test you can take at the site is not how they contructed the graph...the dem candidate graph was based on votes and positions.

who is closer to Bush...Edwards and Lieberman...farthest away? Sharpton and DK...disagree??

The website and methodology have no perceivable agenda that I can see...and I think it's an unbiased graph...you are free to disagree and reposition anyone you like.

More:

You've got liberals on the right. Don't you know they're left ?


This response is exclusively American. Elsewhere neo-liberalism is understood in standard political science terminology - deriving from mid 19th Century Manchester Liberalism, which campaigned for free trade on behalf of the capitalist classes of manufacturers and industrialists. In other words, laissez-faire or economic libertarianism.
In the United States, 'liberals' are understood to believe in leftish economic programmes such as welfare and publicly funded medical care, while also holding liberal social views on matters such as law and order, peace, sexuality, women's rights etc. The two don't necessarily go together.

Our Compass rightly separates them. Otherwise, how would you label someone like the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan who, on the one hand, pleased the left by supporting strong economic safety nets for the underprivileged, but angered social liberals with his support for the Vietnam War, the Cold War and other key conservative causes ?

[TLM]

108. the test you can take at the site is not how they contructed the graph???

Then why over and over did the defenders of this crap say "take the test" as a defense?

[Code_Name_D]

67. I am suspicious of this "compass."

It falsely tries to assume a this disposition of scientific accurse on something as subjective our opinions. The mer argument that political philosophy is so one dimensional as that it can be plotted out on a graph. More over, it seems that every chart like this I have seen, always places each player in a different place. Most notably is Dean's position, with some aligning him to the far left, and others like this one that tries to make him into a radical conservative.

It is nothing more than another propaganda tool. It saddens me to see these so called "democrats" scurry so quickly back into the world of elusions panted by graphs such as these.

[TeacherCreature]

15. I thought Kerry was the great liberal dispite his vote on IWR?

what is going on?

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. Desperation

Kerry is definitely left of Dean...or at least he was until he decided to run for president. Then he tried to hide the fact that he's very liberal by trying to disguise himself as a centrist with a bunch of right leaning votes. :shrug:

[The Zanti Regent]

19. What chance did my nephew have when Kerry gave Bush a black check?

My 23 year old nephew lies in Walter Reed, permanently paralyzed by an Iraqui bullet.

My nephew lies in that bed for the rest of his life becasue Kerry gave the illegally-selected President asshole a blank check.

Time and time again Kerry has laid down and died along with Edwards, Gephardt and Liberman. They have all repeatedly given the Chimp what he wants.

Kerry sure is to the right of Dean, Clark, Kucinich, Al, and Carol!

[janx]

24. I am so sorry and angry to hear this.

It actually puts Dean to the right of Kerry in the old sense of what it meant to be conservative. We had no business going to Vietnam and no business going to Iraq.

This whole situation makes me sick.

[Bombtrack]

26. Even if your telling the truth about your nephew, Kerry never lied

about the resolution, and neither did the others.

Dean on the other hand has lied and mischaracterized himself and his positions as well as his opponents constantly in this campaign, and this post by one of his supporters continues the big collective bullshit campaign that is that of Howard Dean. The thread line is a lie, Dean is a cancer on the democratic party

[dsc]

31. Where does this person accuse Kerry of lying?

and how dare you come as close as you did to accusing him of lying about his nephew? How many people in your family are serving now or served in Bush's war? My answer is 0 but unlike you I didn't post what you did.

[Padraig18]

43. Dean is a better Democrat than your candidate.

You have a lot of nerve calling Gov. Dean 'a cancer on the Democratic party'.

[TeacherCreature]

89. Are you suggesting Zanti is lying? "even if you are telling the truth..."?

thats a low blow and you are out of line calling anyone a liar, Dean or Zanti.

[Hoppin_Mad]

30. That REALLY hit home

Hopefully your nephews tragic injury and the deaths of thousands will not be in vain - but bring a massive change of direction to this once-great country of ours.

Please thank him for his service - as hollow as that may sound.

God bless

[TeacherCreature]

88. I am so sorry Zanti

I hear they are sending men and women over there without even kevlar vests. I don't get how anyone can justify this mess. It is not a just war.

[Cocoa]

20. so what?

god people get outraged at the most pointless stuff.

[Sensitivity]

22. Why are we using a paper from United Kingdom to Slam Kerry?

If Kerry really says he is to the right of Dean we should be able
to find a direct quote and a U.S. source.

[dsc]

27. You are right about the quote

but wrong on the source for two reasons. One is that the Guardian has done a bang up job on covering US affairs. They were the paper which helped expose the theft in 2000. Further the source here is actually AP. That said, this is not a direct quote and that is a problem.

[TLM]

49. I did not say it was a direct quote...

Kerry would never say anything that would fit in a subject line anyway... he has to take 150 words just to say excuse me after he passes gas.


However that is basically what he is saying in the article... that he's to Dean's right on taxes and the war. Just look at his comments in response to the bush lite label.

[TLM]

47. The Guardian is one of the most respected papers on the planet...

far more objective about US politics than any US source i have found.

[seventhson]

23. C/Mon!!! We ALL know that...

Skull and Bones is an extreme right wing "order" which requires goosestepping allegiance from its adherents and initiates and an oath of silence and loyalty.

OF COURSE Kerry is to the right of Dean.

I am glad that at least NOW he admits it in such a way that even his followers have to concede this.

I cannot stand Kerry as a politician.

[Cocoa]

29. I agree

these quotes from Kerry amount to a clear admission he is a servant of Skull and Bones.

Hi SeventhSon! :hi:

[Hoppin_Mad]

33. He's probably got some reptilian blood in him too ! ;-)

That somehwat 'creepy' look gives it away.

I wonder if he will shape-shift in the middle of a debate !

David Icke in 04 ! ;-)

[JVS]

32. After the primaries somebody needs to help me re-learn left and right.

because I'm having trouble understanding how this is all working.

[ErasureAcer]

34. Kerry is an idiot

I tell ya...this guy should keep his mouth closed more than HD.

HD says some pretty stupid things but JK tops him every time.

JK should just jump off a cliff...I'd like to see Bush be defeated but some of these candidates are just morons.

[IndianaGreen]

51. Kerry is an idiot

Kucinich rocks!

:yourock:

It's so nice to reduce everything to a simple sentence that encapsulates the Kerry campaign experience so succinctly.

:grouphug:

[JVS]

53. Kerry is an idiot

I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon :)

[Scott Lee]

110. And one more thing....Kerry is an idiot.

I wanted to make sure that was addressed.

[stickdog]

58. Two roads HAVE diverged in the New Hampshire woods.

And Kerry's is an almost deserted dead end.

[janx]

61. And that road dead-ends...in Vermont.

This is unbelievable.

[TLM]

71. ALthough Kerry won;t know it, since he's off the road

and stuck in a ditch.

[TeacherCreature]

97. it is littered and has poison ivy growing in the cracked pavement

Kerry's road that is.

on edit: I actually feel sorry for him. I just couldn't resist the road less traveled imagery.

[IndianaGreen]

70. Kerry is so full of contradictions that he cannot be trusted

``This is a perilous moment in history,'' Kerry said, ``and we cannot master that moment with a stubborn unilateralism or a soft and vacillating isolationism.''

So why did Kerry vote for IWR and continues to support Bush on Iraq, as he did when he said we were safer after Saddam's capture?

Kerry is an idiot!

[Cocoa]

87. you're full of contradictions too

More than Kerry, in fact, but you express your contradictory views much stronger than he does his. Kerry is more nuanced and less dogmatic than you.

but I don't think you're an idiot. :-)

[mitchum]

73. But he's not (and never said he was)...

but you already know that

[Monte Carlo]

79. POOP! - Kerry said that he was more Centrist, not to Dean's right!!!

Not what this BS headline says.

Enough of this POOP!

[Scott Lee]

109. B-b-b-but if the media screams that Dean is a LEFTIST....

connect the dots.

[TLM]

111. More centrist that Dean.....

that would make him to the right of Dean... unless your argument is that both Kerry and Dean are right wingers and Kerry is slightly less right wing.

However since Kerry's DLC called Deana fringe leftist and Kerry has not as yet taken them to task on it or said they were wrong, I have to stick to my original comment.

Kerry says Dean is to his left and Kerry is closer to the center than Dean.

[windansea]

115. there you go!

"both Kerry and Dean are right wingers and Kerry is slightly less right wing."

think I'll start a new thread on how this works

[janx]

80. Who on earth is writing Kerry's speeches? Kerry was

educated at Yale, no? Doesn't HE have a problem with such a flawed and ironic literary allusion?

Or has he such contempt for the people of New Hampshire that he thinks they won't know the difference?

[TLM]

113. The old saying comes to mind...

You can't polish a turd... which exactly what Kerry is trying to do. He wants to use flowery language to hide the fact that he's basicly admiting his slide to the center right and his support for the war and some of Bush's tax cuts.

[Moderator]

118. locking...........

2. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.



DU Moderator