Dr Dean's Giant Donut Hole

[windansea]

Governor Dean can point to a pretty good record as Governor of Vermont...but has a gigantic donut hole on foreign and defense issues

I realize he has traveled to "lots of countries" and negotiated important border issues with Canada...and carried his x-rays bravely to his physical...but I think it will be kind of tough going against a war-time prez with 60% plus numbers on defense/foreign policy issues...

Can Dean successfully plug this black hole of inexperience with a VP choice as he has said?? Can America feel safe with this guy?

[Scott Lee]

1. Kerry/Clarks giant support and money hole

Sorry, that was just to get your attention.

Now, to the issue. If you can show me exactly how much "foreign policy" experience a US governor is to have before running in a presidential election, then we can continue the debate.

(Pssssst.....Bill Clinton.....)

[windansea]

5. psssssssssssssst

9/11...Afghanistan..Iraq....truck bombs

[Scott Lee]

8. What experience does Kerry have with any of those you mention?

None? Well goodness, looks like he and Howard are on equal footing for once!

[windansea]

10. gee I don't know

maybe a few purple hearts and 20 plus years negotiating international policy

[Scott Lee]

14. Thats not "foreign policy experience"

Thats "being around those who make foreign policy". Just because I hang around auto mechanics it doesn't qualify me to repair mack trucks.

Wanna take another whack at that one?

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

34. That's not foreign policy experience either

But thats a very nice try.

[Octafish]

66. Nice thread hijack. Kerry still beats the rest.

Kerry is the most experienced in foreign affairs of anybody running, including Clark and Gephardt. In addition to serving on the Foreign Affairs and Intelligence committees, Kerry helped negotiate the Kyoto Accords limiting greenhouse gasses, so he's even experienced in international environmental issues. That sure beats the heck out of starting a riverside bike path.

[TeacherCreature]

81. Kerry can't beat my big toe

I have no idea what you think Kerry is beating anyone at. I wonder of he will even be able to hang onto his senate seat.

[Octafish]

86. Ignorance is bliss, huh? Sen. Kerry isn't up for reelection until 2008.

Oh, I get it! You must mean in 2008, when President John Kerry runs for his second term. Thankfully, all good Democrats would feel that way. Right on!

Go John Kerry!

[Monte Carlo]

40. You wanna bet it isn't?

He's a SENATOR... it's their job to make the policy. He was not just a spectator during his time on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

[RetroLounge]

65. What Utter Crapola

If I get a gun, take you overseas, and shoot you, will that give you Foreign Policy Experience?

Utter poop...

[WiseMen]

26. Kerry Wrote the Book "The New War" Warning of 9/11 danger

In his book, “The New War,” (1997), Kerry pulls together insights from 3 terms on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and a decade as Chairman or Ranking Member of the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and International Operations. He argued forcefully for a realignment of U.S. military and intelligence posture to defend against new threats to U.S. global interests and national infrastructure and called for urgent preemptive executive action, warning: "It will take only one mega-terrorist event in any of the great cities of the world to change the world in a single day."

Kerry headed investigation of Reagan/Bush/Rumsfeld involvement with
Iran and Saddam in the 1980's. Led opposition to Gulf War etc. etc etc etc........

Not to emphasize 3 Purple Hearts, Silver Star, Bronze Star and Testimony that Kerry led men in battle on some of the most
dangerous missions in the Vietnam war. And the fact that every Vet from under his command in battle has volunteered on everyone of his campaigns, saying "we will do anything John asks".

[worldgonekrazy]

35. And yet he voted for the Patriot Act and IWR

Its a deal breaker. If the man is full of as much integrity as you think, why the hell did he betray everything he ought to know by voting for those two pieces of legislation? Political expediency? I don't think the deaths of the Bill of Rights, 500 US Servicepersons (thus far), and thousands of Iraqi civilians is justified in the name of political expediency.

[isbister]

55. Re: And yet he voted for the Patriot Act and IWR

I think there are many parts of the Patriot Act that we would keep. But Kerry (and others) have agreed that the "Ashcroft" loopholes need to be closed.

Remember who Ashcroft and his boss are and who the next AG's boss would be. The next AG after Ashcroft will respect the US because he or she will be appointed by a Democrat!

Voting for the IWR didn't really make a difference because Bush could've determined that Iraq was a threat to national security (which he did) and attacked either way.

Kerry's been pretty consistent with his Iraq position, unfortunately the corporate media (and other candidates) have not been honest about it.

Read the speech he made at the time and it'll be a deal fixer!

[Scott Lee]

36. You have got to be kidding.

"It will take only one mega-terrorist event in any of the great cities of the world to change the world in a single day."

qualifies Kerry as the one true 9/11 prophet? Not only could that have been guessed by anyone, the Clinton administration had discussed this VERY scenario possibility before John Kerry thought he was writing the prophecies on the subway walls.

Now there's Kerry misspeak, but I hope it doesn't pitch over to plagiarism or false claims of original thought.

[Monte Carlo]

42. You don't give Kerry any credit.

... for any of his work on foreign policy? Could it be that Clinton and Kerry worked together on al-Queda and other terrorist groups during the 90's, just maybe?

[Raya]

51. Kerry Headded the Subcommitte on Terrorism from 1987. Kerry Advised Clinto

It would great if some critics would do a little reading other
own posts.

[Gloria]

12. Clinton studied foreign affairs at Georgetown, studied overseas and

learned at the knee of J. William Fulbright. He had an interest before he even entered politics. He did not have to rely solely on advisers because he was already an avid follower of foreign affairs and was quickly able to come up to speed...partly also due to his brilliant, far-reaching ability to see the big picture.
Out of office he continues his involvement today...currently unofficially refereeing Kashmir between Pakistan and India and bringing generic drugs to AIDS victims on several continents, saving an estimated 2-3 million lives.

[windansea]

13. right on G girl n/t

[Scott Lee]

15. what about Jimmy Carter?

I don't think he entered the presidential race as a foreign policy afficianado either.

[windansea]

21. no war...no terror....

no need

[Scott Lee]

37. Could we get some arguments in complete sentences, please?

It would really facilitate a better discussion. Thanks.

[windansea]

43. ok

when both Carter and Clinton (both Govs) were elected...americans were not thinking about Islamic fundamentalists flying planes into buildings...receiving anthrax letters...or seeing the results of truck bombs and suicide bombers almost every night

nor were we involved in wars like Iraq and Afghanistan and hearing about dirty bombs....biological warfare....and whack jobs in Korea with nukes and missles

clear enough??

[Hoppin_Mad]

2. Clark has all the Doughnuts covered

"Do you make the doughnuts right here?" he (Clark) asks the cashier at the Dunkin' Donuts.

"No."

"So how do they get here?"

"A truck.

-snip-


"Hi, I'm Wesley Clark and I'd like to ask for your vote."

"Hi, I'm Wes . . .

"You have kids?"

"Want a doughnut ?

--------

He's positively NUTTY ! ;-)

[Scoopie]

7. Outsider candidate

Funny how the "outsider candidate" (Dean) is now the "insider candidate" for the media elite, isn't it?
:P

[LuminousX]

3. LOL.. interesting way of stating it, but how many times?

Can you imagine any answer that would appease you?

Pointless to discuss this in this venue when minds are already made up.

[windansea]

11. lots of people undecided

and lurking for info

[LuminousX]

19. Interesting excuse... a bad excuse, but interesting

I guess that is the blanket excuse that is used whenever anyone brings up an old argument.

[windansea]

25. it's not an excuse

how many people post here out of 30k members??

[LuminousX]

27. How many of the 30k actually visit? Tell yourself whatever you want

Your 'reason' is being used by so many to keep pointless smears alive.

Against any candidate - it is just lame.

[windansea]

31. this is not a smear

it's an important issue...maybe THE issue in next GE

[stickdog]

4. Bush's giant donut hole is inside his skull.

A monkey could figure out a better foreign policy than Bush.

It's time for a real change from the indiscriminate murder of Muslims to appease the worst instincts of Americans, not Kerry's nuanced protection of the status quo.

[rucky]

6. Why is this governor different from any other governor?

[windansea]

9. maybe current events?? n/t

[Scott Lee]

16. Please explain.

[windansea]

22. see post 5 n/t

[Scott Lee]

38. Yes, and?

[windansea]

46. here you go

when both Carter and Clinton (both Govs) were elected...americans were not thinking about Islamic fundamentalists flying planes into buildings...receiving anthrax letters...or seeing the results of truck bombs and suicide bombers almost every night

nor were we involved in wars like Iraq and Afghanistan and hearing about dirty bombs....biological warfare....and whack jobs in Korea with nukes and missles

clear enough??

[babzilla]

50. 'terra' is not new windansea

there were plenty of americans thinking about islamic fundamentalists when Carter and Clinton were elected. I don't know how old you are, but you should know better.

Do not buy into the repubs know best scenario when it comes to foreign policy, it just doesn't wash with reality.

[windansea]

52. whatever

:crazy:

[babzilla]

53. good answer

:crazy:

[isbister]

57. Re: 'terra' is not new windansea

Or the campaign of fear but that's what we'll get. Is there any doubt that there will be a code purple (or whatever high color there is) at the time of the voting?

Not so many thinking about terrorists at either time. You might be thinking of when Carter lost to Ronnie, Carter was perceived as weak )because of the hostages) and Ronnie was seen as strong (because he was very gun ho).

Remember "It's the economy stupid"? Fits in both cases.

I don't know if George Washington himself could have been elected if he ran against Carter as a republican, folks were sick of them at the time.

[WiseMen]

24. Vermont Pop. (608K) & Tax base Smaller Than Cities in Big States

[Scott Lee]

39. POOP

[Octafish]

71. What isn't true about what WiseMen said? VT is tiny.

Should Dean beat Bush, Dean wouldn't have a clue as how to fix the nation's problems. Then again, he'll have a vice president who'll know what to do. Right.

[Scott Lee]

75. Irrelevent. Poop.

Just another meaningless meme serving only as a spitwad in political debate. End of story.

[Octafish]

88. Poop? It's only relevant to the 75% of the country living in urban areas.

What "executive experience" Dean gained as governor of Vermont translates very little to the problems faced by most Americans — poverty, crime, joblessness. Couple that with the fact Dean has zero experience in foreign affairs and it shows he really doesn't bring much to the table as a candidate.

Gee. It's amazing how little the truth can matter to some people. Poop that out all you want.

[incapsulated]

17. mmmm....donuts... n/t

[windansea]

48. heh....krispykreme

http://www.krispykreme.com/varieties.html

[incapsulated]

58. Too sweet!

They have so much sugar in them they make my teeth hurt!

I like...



http://www.dunkindonuts.com/

[Upfront]

18. Do Youi Feel Safe With B###?

Dean has won the primary, its over. Who do you like better, Dean or B###? Dean will strighten the B### international mess in a hurry. Have some faith, and quit slaming the next President.

[neverforget]

47. Dean has won the primary? Please explain when not one vote has

been cast?

[Capn Sunshine]

20. God save us from the donut fillers currently inside the beltway

If you can't recognize by NOW that something different is needed, you are too close to the problem to see a solution.

You can't put someone who benefits from the war machine largesses in charge of stopping war. Which is what this about, a logical pursuit of our goals without needless destruction.

I forgot, apparently you DON'T understand this; you seem to equate "foreign policy " with "experience with warfare and it's profits"

Humanity versus obscenity.

[Scott Lee]

41. Brilliant.

And it is humorous that some would equate making a murky, broad and fairly obvious statement with eagle-eyed political prophecy.

[pansypoo53219]

28. george was any different and people were willing to risk it all on him?

please. W had a ex CIA and ambassodor pa and he still didn't know jack squat. yet Clinton handled stuff fine. all you need is BRAINS.

[WiseMen]

30. And Look at the Wonderfull Results We have Had! Isolation, War, Waste

[arewethereyet]

29. no

Bill Clinton will not run for VP. Anything less would just be the puppet that Dr Dean's ego allow.

[Bill of Rights]

32. You wonder if America can feel safe with this guy

In my opinion, if he can show he is good in emergency situations we will feel safe. One reason I don't feel safe with Dubya is the way he reacted during 9-11 (in the kindergarten, flying around in fear).

I think Dean's VP will have to be from the South and will have to know a lot of Foreign Policy, but will be okay with the back seat. I don't think it will be Graham. Or Clark.

[oasis]

33. Some DUers truly have faith in Dr. Dean's abilities. They'll have a tough

time trying to convince the majority of American voters to put their children's lives in the hands of a national security amatuer.

"Dean's as qualified as Kerry" or other cutesy remarks is just not going to cut it in the post 9/11 era.

[Jerseycoa]

49. Did you watch that Ohio focus group on c-span?

They didn't even want Dean as a chaperone for a kids' trip to Europe because he is nowhere on national security.

[oasis]

54. There is no glossing over the issue of national security. Dean supporters

will have to face reality at some point in time.

[Myra]

62. Dean already faced it! Said he'd plug the hole with a running mate

For has foreign policy experience.
Such a rooke thing to say...outloud.

Guess he's still hoping for Clark to save his butt.

[oasis]

74. "plug hole with running mate" translation: I'm not qualified.(n/t)

[GalleryGod]

69. OUCH!

:spank:

[TLM]

44. Once again we see Kerry and Clark supporters buying Bush lies...

You folks have bought it hook line and sinker... we need a big strong war hero protector to save us from all the mean people who want to kill us.


The fact that you folks seem to be missing is that these same war mongering assholes are responsible for all these bad guys. Saddam, Osama... both trained and armed by the same group of assholes who are now telling us how much we need them to protect us from the backlash of the messes THEY MADE.

Dean and Kucinich are right... the first and most fundamental step to protecting our nation is to get these war mongering jerks out of the leadership positions they are in. We need to treat other nations with respect.

The best way to protect America is not to go bombing Iraq and killing civilians. That kind of shit just makes more terrorists. We follow policy from the likes of Clark or Kerry and we end up doing the same shit over and over again, so we end up with a new batch of thugs we need protecting from in the next 2 decades.

No. I'm not buying into the fear and the hype. We do not need a warriors to go Rambo on the bad guys, because this isn't a fucking movie. This is the real world where you need a new plan and a new direction. We need someone who was against this war to step in and put on the breaks... not someone who voted for it to step in and rationalize it's continuation.

[Monte Carlo]

45. Dean has a right stand with the Iraq war. So did France...

... and that's the problem. We can be be in the right all day long, but it does not automatically translate into the power or reputation to change things for the better. Rooting out the ultimate causes of terrorism is one thing, but it is still a slightly-mad world we live in.

[sandnsea]

61. FRANCE Voted YES

They voted FOR 1441. They voted FOR inspections. They voted FOR serious consequences if Iraq didn't comply. FRANCE agreed with Kerry.

[isbister]

59. Re: Once again we see Kerry and Clark supporters buying Bush lies...

Yeah, that'd be the day I bought anything a republican told me. But, I don't buy what Dean's selling either. Just don't think his past matches up will with his current promises. Don't like his pro-business at all costs record in VT. We need a President that will be wise and try to find the proper balance for the good of the American people, not at the expense of the American paople. Dr. Dean is much too far to the right for me.

Do you have some misunderstanding about Kerry's position about the Iraq War and our treating other nations with respect? It appears so and if so, you're mistaken. You should go to http://www.kerry.com and read about his positions before making balanket (incorrect) statements about them. It is misleading, and we have enough misleaders in the USA today.

[jsw_81]

56. Foreign policy

What foreign policy experience did Jimmy Carter have when he was elected? How about Reagan? Or Clinton? Or Bush II?

The fact of the matter is that four of the last five presidents had no real foreign policy experience whatsoever. All this emphasis on how "crucial" it is is nothing more than a meme invented by the news media.

[isbister]

60. Re: Foreign policy

They all made terrible mistakes, Bush I included. BUT I do believe it is important, not only because of the reality of the mess Bush II (and the previous administratrions) has gotten us in but, because of the mindset of the voting public. The republican campaign of fear has worked well. Is 100% of the population afraid, no, but most people are and it will not take much for the campaigners to turn it up as needed.

For some strange reason the nation chose to make the last election close enough that the stumblin' mumblin' goof-off was able to be selected (after his brother purged the voter rolls of tens of thousands of likely Democratic voters). In this election, no more stumblin' mumblin' goof-offs, let's have a candidate that is articulate hard-working and intelligent.

[Triana]

63. Helloooo...bu$h had no

foreign policy experience either. bu$h had not even ever been out of the friggin country!

Furthermore, his record on foreign policy thus far - have you noticed - had been less than stellar.

Dinging Dean on this is disingenuous at best, and damned hypocritical at worst...Dean can easily and should combat that 'excuse' with just that argument. 'Wartime president'?

Yea. A WAR bu$h started based on lies and false pretenses. A 'war' of his very own design...oh boy.

[TeacherCreature]

64. and yet..... Kerry sucks as a candidate

and is losing. Imagine that, when all his supporters do is attack other candidates with shock and awe techniques designed to instill fear? Why don't you see a connection?

Come join the Dean team, stop at the website and see how much fun we are having.

[Octafish]

67. Nice one. Dean is a draft-dodger.

In a general election, dodging the draft trumps being a sucky candidate (to borrow your venacular) in the eyes of a majority. Gee. That would mean a Liberal who's a war hero would be better than a guy who dumps on Liberals, but sure can ski.

[GalleryGod]

68. Well Put, Friend!

:smoke:

[Octafish]

73. Thanks, GG! I don't understand the venom toward John Kerry.

... Kerry voted for IWR because he, and the rest of the Congress, were told by the CIA and the administrations of Clinton and Bushler that Saddam Hussein was a threat to the national security.

Kerry, more than Dean or Bush, has actually been to war. More than Dean or Bush, Kerry knows war is a tragedy for all concerned. Kerry, more than Dean or Bush, is against war.

Regarding the venom toward Kerry: It's been used to poison the Kerry well for almost two years on DU. It'd be a real tragedy for our Party if Dean is the nominee. We'd be clobbered in the Fall. It'd be a real tragedy for our country if Dean became president. Men of his character don't have a clue. For an example, consider the Bush "pResidency."

[TeacherCreature]

80. no venom

Just a little tit for tat. Fun isn't it?

[Octafish]

87. Fair's fair. Here's some food for thought...

... Dean, for all his pluses as a fiery orator, doesn't quite have it all together when it comes to national security, foreign affairs, military affairs, world history, strategic versus tactical thinking, or vision. Dean, in a recent TV interview, couldn't even remember the Soviet Union fell apart in December 1991. Gee. What kind of a DEM candidate, let alone President, would he make, post-9-11?

[polpilot]

70. And pro-war, pro-Vietnam War, pro-Iraqi warvoters have a candidate!!!

Let's see how well the pro-war message is selling this year. Stay tuned. The Iraqi War heroes Club will be promoting their candidate in about 30 years. 'He defended our country in 2003 in the desert sands. Vote _______ for president 2034.

As evolution advances discrimination against non-shooters will cease!!

Dean '04...

[Octafish]

72. Not funny. Dean didn't even bother to protest Vietnam or fight in Vietnam.

That to me demostrates Dean's lack of backbone, more than showing up with an X-ray and a note from his orthopedist at the draft board. When people his age were taking it to the streets to show opposition to the war, Dean was on the slopes. Then, after a year's skiing, he went to work on Wall Street. Vietnam? That was something that "happened" to other, poorer, people.

[Scott Lee]

77. Here Here!

[Scott Lee]

76. POOP.

[TeacherCreature]

79. yeah but Kerry sucks as a candidate and that is the bottom line

!

[Octafish]

82. Says you. Kerry can beat Bush.

Dean, the draft-dodger, can't beat Bush. Says me.

[killbotfactory]

78. Dean wants to return to successful foreign policy

Not this radical Neocon preemptive war nonsense.

Dean has it right on national security and foreign policy, but doesn't have the experience in that area, so he'll get someone who does have experience and echoes his views.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Bush... they got us into a guerilla war with no end in sight, with no plan on how to win it, pissed off nearly the entire known world in the process, and with no benefit to the USA, our allies, or the world. These people were "experienced".

I'll choose Dean, and his lack of experience, over those foriegn policy "experts", anyday.

[oasis]

83. You don't mind Dean's lack of experience in that area. I wouldn't count

on 51 percent of America's voters willing to toss the dice on national security. In today's climate of fear, they tend to look at everthing through a "9/11 lens".

[babzilla]

84. in "today's climate of fear"

how much time in a day do you spend worrying about terrorists vs. worrying about paying the bills, keeping your job, having health insurance, having a good school for your kids, etc.

Why not crack that "9/11 lens" wide open for what it is, fearmongering in the worst way. I thought this was the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Everyone I know is much more concerned with the economy stupid tm and will vote accordingly.

Don't let the dividers frame the national arguement to benefit the party of fear. It didn't work for us in 2002 (see Max Cleland) and it won't work in 2004.

[Hep]

85. Mmmmmmmmmm Donut Holes

I like donut holes.