Sorry about the purging business

[Renew Deal]

Maybe my approach was off. I guess I was off base. Sorry if I offended anyone. At least I got your blood pressure going. :toast: I would defend you all against the pukes and I would be honored to be at your side while we beat Bush.

:pals:

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. Apology accepted.

:toast:

[MoonRiver]

2. You're the best Bleachers!

:hug:

[DancingBear]

3. We got your back!

Nothin' to it.

:pals:

[library_max]

4. Thanks for your apology.

And the expressions of friendship. I started a thread partly in response to the purge thread, "A Question for Kerry Supporters and a Question for Kerry Detractors." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=329730 Maybe it's another approach to what you were trying to do.

[rucky]

5. It's okay...nobody listens to you anyways

:)

It's as if it never happened.

[stickdog]

6. Sorry is not enough.

You'll have to do a lot of binging to make up for that post:

:toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

[Exgeneral]

7. You can't take back something that is being held up nationally

I just got an email of your purge post from a friend in Michigan who got that post forwarded from Howard Dean supporters in Georgia.

You made quite a splash there pal.

[MoonAndSun]

10. Yeah, I got it too, it is getting around pretty quickly on the web.

eom

[Renew Deal]

15. Is it linked somewhere.

I would love to own up to it.

[Renew Deal]

16. I have had made a splash before.

So far the biggest splash was when I made Limbaughs show. Is it posted somewhere on the web?

[drfemoe]

23. Probably just a few dozen Dean yahoo groups so far .. give it time

n/t

[slinkerwink]

30. sounds like you're proud that you made it on Limbaugh's show

:shrug:

[BootinUp]

35. I think that was for something completely different

maybe someone can refresh my memory...

[Renew Deal]

42. I am.

It was Clark saying that Limbaugh is "full of shit" to me. I posted it on DU. That's how pillboy found us.

[slinkerwink]

50. I wouldn't be proud that I got quoted on Limbaugh.....

I'd be prouder to get quoted on the Mike Malloy show.

[Renew Deal]

53. Maybe you should hear the quote.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_092503/content/rush_challenge_2.guest.html

[Adelante]

8. You must have been bad when I wasn't looking.

:spank:

I don't know why, but I'm sure you deserve it. :D

[hellhathnofury]

9. So we won't get to see Siberia?....

:thumbsdown:

[Renew Deal]

24. lol

That's not what I meant.

[BootinUp]

11. blood pressure

lets you know your still alive right? :)

Not to worry, the BFEE make us say strange things sometimes. I am sure most all DU'ers will pardon you.

:toast:

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

13. Sorry if you were offended.

I guess I was off base.

[MoonRiver]

17. I understood what you were saying. Sometimes I express myself

too directly for a message board. But really I though you were spot on, from my perspective at least! :loveya: Bleachers!

[hellhathnofury]

18. Gulag for me?

If that's spot on, may I suggest a big Kerry you.

[MoonRiver]

28. NO!

I believe that Bleachers was trying to point out how we must unify or we will disintegrate. If some want to destroy the Dem Party then maybe it's time for them to leave. That makes sense to me. I certainly don't want you or any other Dem to leave the party, but get real. How can we defeat * if we are constantly undermining our, presumptive, nominee. Yes, there's still a snowball's chance in hell of Kerry not getting the nom, but I'm talking about probabilities.

We're all in this together (I HOPE) and will support the Dem nominee with the ultimate air of defeating the *. * is a bad as it gets, right?, and we have to get him out, right? I'm really believing that Kerry can do this, and that's a very good thing! I've had to go through a painful loss and transition when Clark dropped out, but he wants us to move on. I dearly love the General and Gert and believe that they and we Dems in general are on our way to rescuing this country from the jaws of death. Please, let us all stand together. :hug:

[Walt Starr]

29. Great way to unify

Purge the big tent into a pup tent.

:eyes:

[MoonRiver]

34. My post flew right past you, did it.

OH, WELL.

[hellhathnofury]

36. I read it as

those with differing opinions are no longer welcome in the party, we are to be purged, or at least that's what ol'Bleachers wants.

I will not unify behind *Kerry*, BUSH-LITE!

[Renew Deal]

49. That's not what I was saying.

It had nothing to do with Policy or positions on issues. It had everything to do with Drudge and Democratic candidates.

[hellhathnofury]

55. Then I guess alot of us need to be sent for improvement of our...

DLC approved reading comprehension skills.

[Renew Deal]

60. What I forgot is that the DLC needed to be purged also.

I do not appreciate them putting up articles saying that the democrats have come back to reality or whatever crap they are spreading. They have been part of the problem too.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

70. Please delete that

the mods will take it off.

[hellhathnofury]

72. Let them.

[Walt Starr]

77. Hmmmmm

Interesting response. That's what I received in three different emails.

[MoonRiver]

52. So, you're saying that if a Dem candidate gets the nomination,

either in 2004 or any other future time, but is not the one you want to win in the GE, then you'll vote against him/her? If this is true then yes, I'd think you'd be better served by declaring yourself an Independent.

[Renew Deal]

58. CynicalSOB once said

that he would prefer Bush to Kerry because there is no difference.

[hellhathnofury]

64. Aye.

Iraq, NCLB, Campaign Finance, Medicare,...

On the things that really matter to me there isn't much of a differnce.

Should I vote for Zell just becuase there's a D next to his name?

[Renew Deal]

67. It depends

In a senate race or anything else other than the presidency, have fun. The GE is just way to important to make a stand. I see it as life and death.

[hellhathnofury]

69. So....

Zell without the endorsement> Bush?

I'm a Democrat but I won't vote for anything with a D next to it.

Would you vote for Traficant or Torecelli for president?

[Renew Deal]

74. If they were my only choice against Bush

ABB I guess. But realistically they would never get that far and Kerry is not like those 3 guys.

[hellhathnofury]

78. How is Kerry that different?

His war vote was just craven. Good Americans died, mind you.

Traitors are worse than enemies. The wound strikes deeper.

[Renew Deal]

93. I was against all that stuff

And I am still not a full blown Kerry supporter. I argued against all that crap here on DU. But, Kerry has one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate. Kerry will help us with judges which we desperately need. And Kerry is right on a lot of issues too.

[hellhathnofury]

100. And Kerry is still liberal after voting or allowing all those things?

"When given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat acting like a Republican the voters will always choose the real thing"

Kerry won't be able to do anything but lessen the loss until another Bush arises.

[MoonRiver]

73. And my response is........................................................

:puke:

Ahhh, that feels better.

[Walt Starr]

45. Reading a call for purges as "unifying"

has nothing to do with the Democratic Party I have been a member of for more than two decades.

[MoonRiver]

57. Why did Bleachers bother to apologize.

He wasted it on many here it seems. :thumbsdown:

[Walt Starr]

68. There are certain things that I refuse to ever forgive

Apologies are meaningless platitudes that only serve to make the one presenting the apology feel better.

Forgiveness must be earned. I see no reason to forgive the purge post.

[MoonRiver]

76. Well, don't hold your breath waiting for me to EARN your forgiveness

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOL!!!!

[Walt Starr]

83. Well you weren't the one apologizing

for making a post that is now all over the internet in emails.

[MoonRiver]

89. All over the internet in e-mails???????????????

Who the fuck cares?

[HuskerDem]

205. I believe some people were already so hard of heart

no apology would be sufficient, which kind of renders indignation into puffery.

It does not detract from the sincerity of the apology, or the meaning of the gesture.

Bleachers, good on you.

[Renew Deal]

82. And DU posts aren't meaningless platitudes?

[JVS]

14. You are one of the best, Hedda_foil!

I really enjoy your posts and you make me proud to be a fellow Democrat.

[greatauntoftriplets]

22. Whoa! hedda!!!!

:hi:

[Walt Starr]

19. Apology not accepted

I received three copies of that post via email from three different people who do not know each other but know me. All three people know I hang out on DU and were amazed such a thing would be posted on an allegedly Democratic web site. None of the three have spent more than a few minutes here, and now none of the three will ever spend time here.

:grr:

[Renew Deal]

21. Walt

Like I said, I was wrong. Sorry Is it linked on the web?

[Walt Starr]

25. Clear text in the body of an email n/t

[drfemoe]

33. I think you just got caught up in the

excitement generated by the tnr article and it sounded like a good idea to you? It's really not your fault that the official Party leaders want to punish dissenters. And maybe you just followed their lead?

[Renew Deal]

Actually I got the word "purge" from them

But I was prompted by a DUer here. A certain DUer was going off on Kerry with the Drudge stuff. He was going at it relentlessly. I was getting frustrated with someone speculating with lies. I was not talking about voters.

[slinkerwink]

41. what if the lies turn out to be true----what then?

[Renew Deal]

47. I have said somewhere on here

That I will be incredibly hostile towards Kerry. That means that he ran for president knowing that was in his background. He would have known that it was coming out. That would be bad.

[drfemoe]

108. I've made appeals in ATA

to 'purge' DU of Drudge type *reading materials* .. The decision of admin has been to trust us to use 'responsibly'. Maybe we need a reminder, don't Drudge and Drive.

[MoonRiver]

170. I hope they start listening to you.

How about starting a petition for DUers to send to the adms. I'll sign.

[dsc]

20. I appreciate the apology

that was big.

[slinkerwink]

26. your apology is NOT accepted....

and you wonder why Dean supporters don't like the Democratic Party? The Democratic Party I once knew was inclusive of all its members, and did not recommend any fucking "purgings"----the Democratic Party you espouse is a fascist, intolerant party.

That IS not my Democratic Party.....

[hellhathnofury]

32. I thought this was FreeRepublic?

And these types of posts are the best part of that place. Where else could I be threatened with purgation?

To Bleachers: Karl Rove thanks you!

[Renew Deal]

40. It has nothing to do with Dean.

I never used Dean's name once in there.

[hellhathnofury]

46. I never said it as is, I just insinuated, correct?

[slinkerwink]

48. the post you made earlier referred to the TNR article of purging

Dean supporters from the Democratic Party. :mad:

[Renew Deal]

51. Not exactly

I used the word a different way. The word itself meant something, but I had not read the whole article. I thought it was a good word to express how I felt.

[slinkerwink]

56. I wouldn't call "purge" a good word.

[Renew Deal]

65. I agree now.

Sorry

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paulie]

43. Sincerity or PRIDE???

Hard to tell, considering the person seems pretty happy about making the news and the rounds on the net.

Looks like the thread was deleted, I only saw the first parts of it. Enough that I went to lunch instead of post. The originator should have probably done the same. Too late now.

Sibera would be too good.... how about a spider hole???

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuskerDem]

59. Your Excellency!

Too bad I'm a Protestant.

[Renew Deal]

62. Sorry

Sorry, sorry sorry

[DU GrovelBot]

31. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

RUN C:\GROVELBOT.EXE
 
This week is our first quarter 2004 fund drive.
Please take a moment to donate to DU. Thank you
for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[hellhathnofury]

37. Run GrovelBot run!

The purge is coming!

[hellhathnofury]

38. Run GrovelBot run!

The purge is coming!

[JVS]

54. I think this apology is tearing open wounds more than promoting healing.

Maybe it would be better received when people have had more time to settle down.

[Renew Deal]

61. It was fine

until someone told me to F off. Now it's a mess.

[texasmom]

71. I just want to say

that I have no idea what your post said, but your apology seemed very sincere to me. :hug:

You've also tried to explain what you were trying to say, apologizing over and over as you're explaining. Geez. I don't know what else you can do! :shrug:

[hellhathnofury]

75. I posted it above.

Hurry.

[slinkerwink]

80. look at post 66, and see why we're upset

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hellhathnofury]

88. I don't think we're much of a minority.

We might very well be a plural majority, hence the fundraising begging.

[MoonRiver]

94. Yeah, right, lol!

You'll be asked for money if you're on any number of Democratic e-mail lists. Don't flatter yourself! :D

[hellhathnofury]

104. I think I was referring to DU, I don't remember the last drive being

anywhere near this pathetic.

So Dean and his army is irrelevant.

[MoonRiver]

63. Guess we're just a mean bunch of S.O.B.s

Very sad.

[Malikshah]

79. What else should you expect.

Let me give you a situation--

When teaching I have 3 simple rules for my students.

The Three R's

Rational Thought
Respect for other peoples opinions
Responsibility for one's actions or lack thereof.


Your post and now this one apologizing broke all three of those rules in one way or another. Intended or no-- an apology does not suffice for many. You'll just have to accept the responsibility and the ramifications.

It's part of life and we all have to grow up and realize that we don't get "do overs" when we want.

The internet might be "the ether" but you're dealing with human beings all the same. We all have little if any clue about what people are dealing with on a day to day basis-- we all come here in support of various candidates and many take the process quite seriously.

The purging thread was quite wrong.
The apology thread might be accepted by some and rejected by others.


You will just have to live with that. It's called life.

I, for one, do not accept your apology. I do not think you even begin to understand the effects of the thread on many people.

This is not a game or a competition.

[JVS]

84. I agree completely, but I believe you did not intend to direct this...

post to me.

[Malikshah]

92. Nope--

So sorry about that--wish I knew how to move it.

Damn technology...*goes back to shack to write manifesto*

[frustrated_lefty]

81. Guys,

This primary season has all of us a bit high-strung. Many of us have experienced the occasional brainfart and posted extreme views which, in retrospect, we might have wanted to present differently or even not at all.

I'm willing to take Bleacher's apology at face value.

Maybe it might be a good idea to take a step back while emotions may still be a little bit volatile over the subject? Just a thought.

[hellhathnofury]

86. The problem is that many of us don't believe it was a brainfart.

Furthermore, the feelings behind it are obviously real and the threats are intended.

[Renew Deal]

102. Does this threaten you?

This party needs to stand for something. It needs to grow. It needs to be
focused on serving the American people. It needs to concentrate on winning
elections. And most of all, it needs to be united.

[hellhathnofury]

109. You know winning isn't everything, this isn't a game.

Howard is about standing for somethings, growing the party and focusing on people not lobbyists.

United behind who?

[Renew Deal]

111. Howard has also said repeatedly

that he will stand behind the nominee. Will you renounce him then?

[hellhathnofury]

127. No, he can do as he wants. We aren't blind followers.

He's got no choice but to do it, we do have a choice.

On to 08!

[Renew Deal]

141. What if a Dem is up for reelection in '08?

On to 2012?

[hellhathnofury]

147. If it's from the Kerry-Zell wing of the party, no.

At this point I'm still a bit on the fence but it's probably Dean write in. I've been wavering a bit on this.

[MoonRiver]

164. And exact;u WHY does he have NO choice?

I thought Howard was the personification of an independent outsider? Or is he something else entirely?

[hellhathnofury]

169. He's a major figure in the Democratic party.

Howard has too, we want Bush out too. However, the foor soldiers are not in the same position, we can move as we please without utterly damning the nominee. We aren't cultists you know.

[ShaneGR]

168. Bleachers, uniting isn't purging

Get your vocabulary straight ok? You apologize but then you dig a deeper hole.

[frustrated_lefty]

124. To an extent, I agree

The feelings were pretty apparent behind the original "purge" post. I'm willing to entertain the notion that Bleachers was feeling an immense amount of frustration and blew his top. What we say in a pique of anger is not always what we would say after having had time to give more deliberate consideration to an idea.

A segment of the progressive wing of the party is feeling betrayed by the party itself for a variety of reasons. And a large segment of the party is feeling betrayed by elements within the progressive wing due to their refusal to get in line like good little soldiers. That mutual sense of betrayal IS something which will have to be worked out for the party to survive, and it isn't surprising some of the first exchanges to directly address the subject are volatile and extreme. The sense of betrayal inspires powerful emotions.

The issue does need to be addressed in some context. I'm suggesting that maybe people are still a little too close to it after the earlier post....it might be beneficial to take a step back, take a few deep breaths and then try and address the topic constructively instead of just being mad at each other.

[OhioStateProgressive]

87. apologies should be accepted, always

I can't believe someone extended an apology for a wrong they felt they perpetuated, and some people can't accept it.

I think alot of people need to read up on Mohandes Gandhi

[hellhathnofury]

90. Hitler says, I'm sorry and the Jews accept, correct?

[OhioStateProgressive]

96. hehehe...illogical extrapolations don't prove points.

read about Gandhi

I don't believe in god, but you should read about Jesus Christ too.

forgiveness is and should be absolute, if it is asked for it should be granted.

I can't believe I have to state this on a liberal BBS

[Walt Starr]

116. I am under no moral obligation to forgive anybody fo anything

none.

[OhioStateProgressive]

125. well, you are right

you aren't...you aren't under any obligation to be morally correct either.

To treat other humans in the best manner possible...as you want treated yourself...if you forgive yourself for things you upset yourself with, you owe it to your fellow humans to do the same with them

it is just a matter of treating people like you are supposed to, you aren't obligated to do it, but it is still correct to do so.

[Walt Starr]

158. I don't live by the princiles of Judeo Christianity

nor Ghandi.

I don't have to either.

I support the death penalty. I believe murderers get what they deserve when a needle is stuck in their arm and they deserve no forgiveness.

I believe somebody had better be contrite when apologizing, or else they have no chance of me accepting their apology.

[OhioStateProgressive]

159. fine

I don't respect that viewpoint

[Walt Starr]

165. Fine

I cannot respect yours either then.

[OhioStateProgressive]

167. doesn't matter, as long as you are on the correct side of an issue

as I am

[Walt Starr]

173. I am definitely on the right side of this issue

You are in the wrong, IMO.

[OhioStateProgressive]

176. ah, the revolving reply

naa na naa na naa naa, you are still wrong

imo

[Walt Starr]

178. Whoopde doo

I thin you're wrong and I think Ghandi was wrong on many things.

Malcom X had the right idea about many things. If a man pushes me, I punch. If he pulls a knife, I pull a gun.

Apologies and accepting apologies are signs of weakness.

[JVS]

180. You've convinced me. This works much better with my inner nature as well

Thanks! :-)

[OhioStateProgressive]

181. whatever

fuck violence and the pain it creates...fuck the world that say's war and violence is the way it has to be.

we are an immature species...we truly are

[JVS]

183. We're only human.

[OhioStateProgressive]

184. so what

that is no free pass for people to give up on finding truth and creating a better world

[JVS]

185. They are searching for truth. They just don't see eye to eye with you

[OhioStateProgressive]

187. well

those of us enlightened know...sadly it is only a small precentage of society

[Walt Starr]

188. In the meantime, old men grab little girls from car washes

then rape and kill them.

This is a violent and dangerous world we live in. Homo Sapiens has yet to evolve into an intelligent species.

Accepting reality is all we can do.

[OhioStateProgressive]

190. reality is common

idealism is a higher plane

exist in it and the world may live longer

[Walt Starr]

Reality is truth

Idealism is dreaming.

WAKE UP!!!

[OhioStateProgressive]

193. i'm sorry you don't want a better world

I think it is worth it

[Walt Starr]

200. Utopian bliss is impossible

Every attempt at establishing it has failed miserably. It goes against basic human nature.

Homo Sapiens is imperfect and as such, is a violent race. There can be no better world so long as one among us is violent. All there can be is survival.

[OhioStateProgressive]

201. I obviously disagree(nt)

[HuskerDem]

210. All there can be is survival? What an empty barren

view of life. Good lord, why even bother?

[Walt Starr]

186. There is one penalty for repaying violence against you with peace,

a swift and often painful death.

One must react to the reality of the world one finds oneself thrust into. The world is a violent and scary place. If one reacts to violence against oneself with naught but sitting down, that one is described by a single word.

Victim.

I own a gun. I have defended myself, both unarmed and armed, on many occasions. I am not afraid to take another man's life if that man is threatening my life with violence. That is the reality of this world.

Police and laws can only be reactionary forces. knowing how to defend oneself and being prepared to kill if necessary in order to survive is a proactive approach to a violent world.

[OhioStateProgressive]

189. truth

is the opposite of what you posted

I would rather die than have the blood of another on my hands

[Walt Starr]

194. Interesting

I would kill without hesitation if I found myself in a kill or be killed situation. I would kill without hesitation if I was in a situation where another man was directly threatening my wife's life.

I would have no remorse whatsoever. I would be doing what is necessary. The choice would not be mine, it would be the man threatening me or mine.

Edited to add: Maybe my military training is coming through here, but this is how one must react to violence.

[OhioStateProgressive]

195. i reiterate

I will die before I take a life

[Walt Starr]

197. For your sake, I hope you never face a moment of truth.

Seriously, in a kill or be killed situation, I fear ou would be a victim rather than a survivor.

There is but one meaning to life, survival.

[OhioStateProgressive]

199. well

I would also give my life to save yours so you never have to make that choice either

[Walt Starr]

203. Here's a quandery for you

You say you would die to save my life. What if this were the situation.

Another man is about to kill me, you can stop him from killing me. All you have to do is kill him. Would you kill to save my life?

Personally, I'd rather know somebody willing to kill to protect my life than die to protect my life. It takes real courage to be able to kill.

Patton spoke a unique truth to his troops:

"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

Patton was brilliant in his honesty about combat.

[OhioStateProgressive]

204. sorry

I would die for anyone...I would kill for no one.

I understand that maybe this is somewhat naive of me...maybe it would change.

I don't have respect for Patton...he was a Militaristic animal

[Walt Starr]

206. Patton was a true American hero

He was a brilliant srategist and singlehandedly saved more lives in World War II than any other man because of his brilliance. Had he not done what was considered impossible in the winter of '44, thousands upon thousands of American lives would have been lost.

Should we have just rolled over and accepted Hitler? Hitler is the perfect representation of the evil that exists in this world. The Pattons of the world are required because there are Hitlers in the world.

No amount of idealism will ever alter that simple fact.

[OhioStateProgressive]

207. war is wrong

and Patton was great at it

that makes him a big asshole in my eyes

[Walt Starr]

208. So it was wrong to take out Hitler?

Man, that's pretty messed up if you ask me!

War is necessary. World War II was a righteous war.

Korea was wrong.

Vietnam was wrong.

The Gulf Wars were and are wrong.

World War II was 100% necessary as was Patton.

Without Patton, we'd REALLY be living under a Nazi regime today.

I cannot respect anybody who cannot respect that simple truth.

[OhioStateProgressive]

212. in the grand scheme of things

I think World War Two is what happened because of World War One...out of the faults of all nations...we were responsible for Hitler...our citizens financed him...War resulted, I am not going to get into the argument about whether it was necessary or just

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

91. Apologies should be offered when things have calmed and be phrased so...

as to avoid continuing conflict.

[OhioStateProgressive]

97. you may be right

but I don't believe it is good reason to not accept an apology

[JVS]

107. There is an old Jewish custom (i heard) that says if one fails to..

apology after three seperate attempts to apologize then the guilt is transferred. I think that the issue here is way to hot to touch at this point and I can completely understand those not willing to accept the apology yet.

[OhioStateProgressive]

110. I understand why as well

but since we all know that we are supposed to accept apologies, why would we condone those who choose to do other than what is morally right?

[Walt Starr]

113. There is no moral obligation to accept any apology.

None.

[OhioStateProgressive]

131. hehehe

look, you are right, there isn't

but it is still wrong to not accept apologies

just like violence is always wrong, all apologies should be accepted...I am sorry you aren't aware of this

[Walt Starr]

138. If there is no moral obligation to accept an apology

then refusing to accept an apology cannot be wrong by definition.

[OhioStateProgressive]

142. well, generally treating people bad is wrong

but everyday I find people disagreeing with me

[Walt Starr]

149. Refusing to accept an apology is not treating somebody bad

It is exercising my rights.

If somebody murdered my wife and was on the gurney just about to get a needle in the arm was to apologize, I would proudly and loudly state, "I will not accept your apology you murderous bastard now take the punishment you deserve!"

Nobody is under any obligation to accept any apology. The existance of the apology indicates the one making the apology wronged the person or persons being apologized to. I do not have to forgive somebody for their wrongdoing.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

118. I believe that they have the right to refuse

Especially if they feel that the apology is insincere.

[Walt Starr]

135. I practice no religion in the Judeo-Christio-Islamic traditions

ergo, I am not only under no moral obligation to forgive and accept an apology, I am also under no religious obligation to forgive and accept an apology.

[OhioStateProgressive]

139. it doesn't matter if you do or not

it is a simple matter of treating human beings correctly...and accepting apologies is part of it

[Walt Starr]

151. No, accepting apologies is not a part of it.

There is no reason to accept an apology if you cannot.I refuse to accept this apology, especially since I do not consider it sincere.

[OhioStateProgressive]

155. love is the answer

being able to accept apologies means you have to be able to open your heart

anything less is a form of revenge, and we all know revenge is wrong

[Walt Starr]

161. It's not a form of revenge

Revenge would be me taking a hammer to somebody over words.

I'm no Christian nor am I a follower of Ghandi. If attacked violently I will fight back and I will put another man down if I feel threatened enough by that man.

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I live by the reality of the world I live in.

[OhioStateProgressive]

162. A. it is revenge, otherwise I wouldn't have said it

and

B. your "message" is incorrect whether I like it or not

it's right and wrong and you can only be on one side of it

[Walt Starr]

171. What's wrong is giving over power to people who have wronged you

by forgiving them.

That's a major sign of weakness of character, IMO.

[OhioStateProgressive]

172. try again

again, your opinion or message is wrong

[Walt Starr]

174. Nope

Yours is.

[OhioStateProgressive]

177. pee wees big adventure

I suppose this is more fun than watching tv

so for that I thank you

[Walt Starr]

179. Not really

But you're still wrong, IMO.

[OhioStateProgressive]

182. what kind of cookie would you like?

you advocate violence and revenge...I don't care what you value as right and wrong anymore

[Walt Starr]

191. I advocate defending myself and my family

I advocate recognizing those who would do harm to me and mine and eliminating those threats.

I advocate reality rather than hopeless dreams.

[OhioStateProgressive]

192. well

I think that is a surface analysis type of philosophy

truth is obvoiusly a bit deeper than that

[Walt Starr]

196. Your "truth" depends upon everybody believing as you

Sounds pretty false to me.

[OhioStateProgressive]

198. I am finished

I have stated all I want to say on the matter.

my argument remains intact

[JVS]

144. yeah. I have to agree.

Especially considering the nature of this apology

[Malikshah]

101. Apologies will be accepted by some

When the apology is heartfelt.

The "my bad" quality shows to me that it was not.

It appears that many feel that this is a game. It isn't.

Gandhi was principled and stuck to said principles.
They were well thought out offered up.

[OhioStateProgressive]

106. I guess it is a philosophy difference

since i believe those principles to be correct I live up to them.

[Malikshah]

112. No real difference really

But to bring Gandhi into this situation is not relevant.

To accept the apology and move on would be to ignore the issues that were raised by the offending thread.

This is not the time to "sweep things under the carpet"

We cannot afford to have folks discuss such vile things as "purging a party" and then go--sorry, my bad. Bygones?

And again. The initial post of this thread...not an apology to begin with.

[OhioStateProgressive]

117. I see a big difference

and I see the Gandhi reference for what it is...accept apologies 100%, for all reasons...because it is fair and right, and we should always resist human impulses that force us to lose touch with our inner knowledge of right and wrong

we know we shouldn't be mean and angry with each other

why allow ourselves to do it if we know it isn't right?

[Malikshah]

126. OK then

So you accept apologies--but then you ignore all else?

Sorry--I think there is mix up in interpreting both Gandhi and his actions and words here. I'll agree to disagree on this however.

[texasmom]

154. OhioStateProgressive

:yourock:

You're inspiring me to go read more in-depth about Gandhi this weekend.

[OhioStateProgressive]

157. thanks:)

I appreciate it :pals:

[BootinUp]

163. Seconded

Ghandi was a man for all to learn from.

[Justitia]

95. I thought I was the only one! I got an e-mail too!

I had already read this for myself on here, and a friend sent me an e-mail this afternoon with the original post (cut & paste).
She asked me how I liked being a "pariah of the party"???
Much to my dismay, I could see she had copied it to at least 15 other people we know - ugh...

Let me mention - she's a Republican.
She thinks I am in the wrong party (kinda feels that way too).

I had no idea that other people were getting the same thing!

The collective bum's rush, heard 'round the world.

Nice work.

[slinkerwink]

98. really? this is precisely we cannot accept this apology from

the same author of that post that is now making its way around the world to Dean supporters, showing them how much their Democratic Party does not want them.....

[Renew Deal]

114. I'm sorry, I didn't know I was Terry McAuliffe

Geez, how much power and influence do I have?

[slinkerwink]

132. apparently you had some influence because that post you made

is now going around the world in e-mails. Aren't you proud?

[Renew Deal]

156. Proud?

I am not sure if I am proud. If it makes people think in a positive way, that's good. I have a feeling that isn't the case and it is unfortunate. I am sorry if I have upset or hurt anyones feelings. I hope we all stand together to challenge Bush.

[Justitia]

121. yes, & I hate talking about Dem party stuff w/Repubs!

Made me feel like a complete ass.
Felt like I had to justify why I am a Dem for only the 1000th time. Not to mention, some of these folks I was actively working to get them to our precinct convention (the people she forwarded to).

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BootinUp]

103. I didn't see much

of the thread before it was zapped from existence. But I did read the original post. This is being way OVERBLOWN folks. While the writer of the post chose some words badly, the post was about unity to beat bush. The writer suggested that some people who were in the party don't belong. SHIT that gets suggested around here at least 10 times a week in various posts. And I didn't see where any specific group was talked about other than thsoe who refuse to vote for the nominee, who by definition have already excluded themselves. So maybe I am missing something?

flame away

[JVS]

115. Here is what EarlG had to say in ATA

"That thread was awful, and I mean almost every single post in that thread.

"Purging" the Democratic party? Cheering Matt Drudge?

The thread has been deleted.

And by the way, please keep your personal flame wars out of this forum."

[BootinUp]

120. Yes I saw that, so it was other posts too i guess

not just the original that was so offensive?

[JVS]

123. A huge number of those posts supported the original

[Renew Deal]

122. I never

ever ever cheered Mat Drudge. I said this:

Third, any "Democrat" that enjoys repeating media lies (like Kerry's
special interest charge) or uses baseless information from guys like Drudge
needs to go. It is not appropriate to enjoy using baseless smears.

[JVS]

129. So you apoloogize, but maintain that your position was correct.

I've considered this apology. I reject your apology.

[Renew Deal]

136. I can't win.

I no longer agree with the full content of that post. Here is what I agree with:

Third, any "Democrat" that enjoys repeating media lies (like Kerry's
special interest charge) or uses baseless information from guys like Drudge
is wrong. It is not appropriate to enjoy using baseless smears.

[Malikshah]

119. No flames here.

We just differ on the issue of whether it was overblown or not or whether the apology was actually an apology.

I wonder if folks realize the effect the initial thread had on some?
I mean--have they actually tried to think about it--or is this whole board just some outlet for impulsive thoughts? If folks think they can just spout off and then pull and "etch a sketch" move and make things better, we're in for a hard year.

[Renew Deal]

128. Sorry

but you should have seen the constant threads about how Drudge is right or probably right. Kerry is a philanderer and whatever else. I said this:

Third, any "Democrat" that enjoys repeating media lies (like Kerry's
special interest charge) or uses baseless information from guys like Drudge
needs to go. It is not appropriate to enjoy using baseless smears.


I said that Drudge was unacceptable. That's partly what set me off.

[maccaroni]

133. But Drudge IS RIGHT.

[HuskerDem]

213. up IS down

right IS left. I get it now.

[Malikshah]

140. I'm sorry too.

If this post was directed to mine--

Then I am sorry too, but I cannot accept your apology. Your initial post in this thread does not reflect that you realize the ramifications of your actions. In other words--no remorse or reflection showed up there.

No--I don't want some long winded apology-I would not be so presumptious.

I just wanted to point out to you and others that folks need to think long and hard before they start acting impulsively.

We all need to reflect a bit more.

[Renew Deal]

145. Thanks

[BootinUp]

130. What I do not understand

is why any one individual or group felt targeted by the post, my recollection is it spoke in general terms about people who actively worked against getting the nominee elected. What did I miss?

[slinkerwink]

134. because it was clearly referring to the TNR article which spoke

of the same "purging" of the Democratic Party by getting rid of Dean supporters.

[Renew Deal]

137. I referred to one word in an article I didn't read.

[slinkerwink]

143. well, that's funny

because that article spoke about purging the Democratic Party of Dean supporters.....and your post spoke of purging the party of those who did not clearly stand behind Kerry, thus implicitly referring to them as Dean supporters.

[Renew Deal]

152. Are you saying that Dean supporters will not support the nominee?

If that is something you know as fact then fine. I have seen supporters of many candidates here at DU upset about their candidates not winning. I am not TNR and I was not referring to any one crowd.

[RetroLounge]

153. Apologizing and then arguing your points

is NOT apologizing.

:eyes:

[Renew Deal]

160. Geez

I said that the word purge and the overall sentiment was off base. I still believe that Drudge is a bad source. That will never change.

[frustrated_lefty]

202. The word "purge."

The word has a lot of impact on older people who remember the first time that word had international meaning, and, I think, most strongly on descendants of Russian immigrants.

You may or may not recall the use of the word 'purge' in the Stalinist Soviet Union, and what that means to people.

It's a word that pushes buttons for a lot of reasons.

[texasmom]

146. That's how I read it, now, too...

The message was about unity and fighting the common enemy.

I do think that people who still have a candidate in the race would read it differently than I do. I feel like a different person since Clark withdrew. None of the attacks faze me, and I know it's because I'm not emotionally invested anymore.

I can understand why the post would have offended, but I've read many things that have offended me here, especially when Clark was doing well. My blood boiled, but if one of those people had apologized--can't remember one doing so--I don't think I would have spit it back in their face. I just put them on ignore and ignored a few threads.

I just think that some people are more adversarial than others and aren't interested in forgiveness. I also think that many others, who would normally accept the apology and move on, have too high an emotional investment right now, and that just puts them on edge more. Oh well...

[Name removed]

211. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

214. Move on?

Ok.

I'll just get over it. Move on. (If I had a nickel for every time that's been said.) What's next pictures of babies crying?

Offended by talk of purging then a half hearted apology and now told to move on.

Okey dokey. Baaaaaahhh. I'll move on.

*wonders where everyone's going...they just disappear up ahead..oops, cliff.*

Some folks were quite offended both by the initial thread and the remorseless "apology."

Guess what--some folks might have a point. Do only certain opions matter?

[BootinUp]

215. The point has been made *I think*

Is more outrage needed? At some point a discussion should make progress or be ended, it seems the since no progress is being made between the various positions that it is time for the second option. Just a suggestion.

[Malikshah]

217. I would agree in most cases

But this seems to be a pattern.

First: Bad thing goes down

Second: Told to move on.

Sometimes folks need to work to stop the cycle.

Too much was swept under the rug leading up to the 2000 election and soon thereafter.

Right now the rug is *bulging* and there just ain't room for more.

I agree that it's frustrating and tedious for some--but nothing worthwhile (i.e. a complete airing out of the situation) is easy.

I'm quite happy at the discussion to be completely honest. It has been interesting to see folks raise key points concerning the nature of the process, the nature of arguments, and the real power of words.

As long as folks don't get their knickers in a twist and take things personally then a healthy robust discussion of the issues is a good thing in my book.

I may disagree with some folks views and will state it--but I don't think these "opponents" are bad people. (woefully mistaken, as would be anyone who disagrees with me ;-) , but not bad.)

I've seen discussion of Gandhi, political discourse, the nature of apologies, etc discussed here-- if anything else--it's a healthy process for which the starting poster should be thanked.

[BootinUp]

218. Point taken

Nice post,

I also like discussion to continue even on *controversial* issues as long as we can all acknowledge the right to opinions and not get into simplistic repetitive arguments.

I do understand the issues raised here, disenfranchisement and so on. I have been trying to accept the end of my candidates campaign, and I was a true believer I guess you can say, so its been a bit painful to see it end. My vote on 3/2 cannot bring it back you know.

[NoPasaran]

148. Thanks for the apology Bleachers7

I am a Democrat. I am a Dean supporter. There is absolutely no contradiction between the two.

Let me share a few lines from an email I received from Glen Maxey, who is heading the Dean campaign in Texas, discussing the possibility that by the time our primary rolls around on March 9 the nomination will have been decided:

When and if that happens, we must move forward and do everything in our power to defeat George Bush. I don't need to lecture anyone on that point. If you think not voting, or walking away from this because Howard Dean is not the nominee, and leaving this repugnant, disastrous administration in office is wise, then in my opinion, you shouldn't have been here in the first place.

I agree 100 percent with that sentiment.

There's a lot that needs to be fixed in this party, there's even more that needs to be fixed in this country. Anyone who thinks that either task can be accomplished by first driving people away is committing suicide. Anyone who thinks that only one candidate is good enough to lead us into the promised land is just plain nuts.

[drfemoe]

175. that quote

doesn't sound the same taken out of context of the entire email. Mr. Maxey is not that harsh.

[NoPasaran]

216. That email as a whole

Discusses how he recommends Dean supporters here should act given the two possible scenarios: either we are still actually competitive; or we're not, in which case what's really important is how this great movement inspired by Howard Dean can continue past the primaries, past the convention and past November. But there is nothing in it that weakens his ABB sentiments that I have quoted.

I still think that Howard Dean is our best candidate for President. I am still talking to people, still winning some over to Dean. I am still reminding people that we are still in the race, still in second place. I am still contributing on a regular basis. On the morning of March 9 I am going to vote for Howard Dean and that evening I am going to caucus for him. But come November 2, if the name on the ballot happens to be John Kerry or john Edwards or Dennis Kucinich I will vote for him. Just like Howard Dean will.

[ShaneGR]

166. OK, it's cool

No biggie.