Dean: Kerry nomination a grave mistake...

[tobius]

DURAND, Wis. Feb. 13 — Howard Dean knows all too well that time is running out on his once high-flying presidential campaign, and yet he plows ahead, hoping Wisconsin voters will reconsider a decision even he concedes may already be made.

His message is simple and blunt: Democrats are about to make a grave mistake if they nominate John Kerry. http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040213_1254.html

"We're not going to win this election if in October George Bush turns to the Democratic candidate and says: 'You were with me on the war; you were with me on No Child Left Behind; you were with me on tax cuts. Why don't you just support me?'" Dean tells his audiences.... "

... '.., Dean now does everything he can to link him to Bush's policies. He argues that special interests control what happens in Washington and no one is as beholden to them as Kerry.



"This is not the person we need to head the Democratic Party," Dean said midweek at a Milwaukee event. "I think Senator Kerry is clearly not the person to carry the banner of the Democratic Party because he has acted so much like a Republican."

[Gman]

1. If Dean made his comments about Kerry here on DU

he'd get a slap from the moderators.

[tobius]

6. see #5 n/t

[Kahuna]

2. Oh boy! Kerry Kerry Kerry Kerry Kerry. Dean needs to..

find a new tune to sing. He sounds like a broken record. Kerry is a republican. Bwawk!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

12. Dean attacks Kerry by saying he's too close to Bush.

Kerry attacks Dean by saying he's not close enough to Bush.

Which attacks hurt Dems more and why?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stickdog]

61. Kerry: "It's irreponsible for Dean to suggest Osama's capture didn't make

Americans safer."

Kerry: "It's heartless for Dean to suggest that all of Bush's tax cuts were bad."

Kerry: "It's disgusting for Dean to suggest the people be tried before they are executed."

[Darth_Kitten]

66. Watch it stickdog......

you are becoming "shrill". ;)

Dean was speaking out for a lot of people while, quite frankly, Kerry was towing the Establishment line.

[slinkerwink]

4. Dean's right.

[woofless]

30. He can be "right" all he wants when he gets home.

[Darth_Kitten]

68. Thanks for showing such an interest in Dean.

He's so irrelevant, gotcha. He's the reason Kerry is doing so well, huh?

[For PaisAn]

40. Dean is right and here's why

On another thread titled "How can Bush attack Kerry on special interest money? (How the hell can the pot call the kettle Black?)"

I wrote
He can't but...

you also need to look at the reverse. Kerry cannot freely attack Bush on this issue and others without the Republicans throwing the same back at Kerry. Take notice that this RNC video is in response to Kerry criticizing Bush on his ties to special interests.

On many of the issues when Kerry cricizes Bush the Repugs will point to Kerry voting for those issues. IWR, Patriot Act, etc. If Kerry then states "Well, I voted that way because Bush lied to us" or "Well, I thought Bush would have gone about it the right way and not abused the power we gave him" Kerry will appear to lack good judgement and to be lacking in leadership qualities.

I believe this is a real problem for Kerry.

[RC]

5. I tried to say what is in your post

and my post was deleted. I got a demerit for for trying.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

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[vision]

23. Yeah he shut down the Bush machine in the 80s

afterall that muckraking brought forth damaging information on Bush, Reagan and the rest that they were unable to go any further in politics.

Oh it didn't...

As Roseanne Roseannadana said "Nevermind"
:eyes:

[juajen]

64. Well hell,

What would you say if he didn't even try to bring 'em down? Is there any pleasing some of you? Everyone knows that in our illustrious Senate, you pick your battles; some you win, some you lose and some are draws. The name of the game is compromise. There are 100 senators all with their own agendas. It is rare to win a battle singlehandedly. You also need to look at bills he worked on that weren't necessarily initiated by him. I think anyone who can put up with all that crap for 20 years deserves another freaking medal to go with the ones he got in 'nam.

I have been reading a lot of threads tonight and, frankly, I am disappointed in some of you. Not only will I support the nominee, I will do my best to promote and protect him when necessary, as should you all. That is not to say that I have on blinders where Kerry is concerned. There was only one perfect candidate, the good General, but he was not supported by enough democrats. Hopefully, his influence will be felt for years to come. Note: I said only one "perfect" candidate. All of the rest, IMHO, have some electability problems, even my loverly, Dennis Kucinich.

In short, the more we talk about this Drudge sludge, the less time we have to get out a more positive message to get our valid points about this misadministration across.

[vision]

80. I'll support the nominee

But one of the many positives I have seen bandied about is that Kerry has the dirt on the Bush Crime Family. And that he will use it in the GE. Where was he in 2000? Just like the AWOL cry how come it has taken so long to exposue any dirt?

If he has the dirt and has not used it before now he just seems opportunistic and not that much better than the BFEE. 3500+ Americans, 3000+ Afghan, 10000+ Iraqis are dead. Thousand of others are wounded. That is the horror I see before me. Yes it is 1000% the fault of BFEE and terrorists but those that have not stood up to them are at least partially responsible. That make it hard to support them. That makes it hard to be enthusastic about them. The ONLY thing that makes it barely acceptible to vote for them is that what is there now is worse.

I have no illusions that, if elected, Kerry will solve all our problems but I wish if he knew the types of criminals that were in office (and he should have because of BCCI, Iran/Contra, etc which he had a hand in investigating) he would have opposed them with every fiber of his being. That would have made me proud to vote for him, instead I almost feel shame.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

41. blm?

[RichM]

8. Dean is exactly right about this.

Kerry sat quietly for 3 years, scarcely lifting a finger against Bush. I can remember one time that he made a good speech - some sort of protest against Bush questioning the patriotism of Democrats. Other than that, he was quiet as a mouse, voting WITH Bush on some of the worst initiatives (when even bothering to show up & vote at all).

He was wrong on all the big things, and basically quiet for everything else. He supports the Iraq occupation. He lied through his teeth about his real reasons for voting for the IWR, and still hasn't come clean about it. His attacks on Dean in Iowa sounded like they'd been scripted by Karl Rove. He's Establishment to the core, & the big media conglomerates are comfy with him. He has contempt for the antiwar movement. He wants to send 40,000 MORE troops to Iraq. His campaign relentlessly invokes symbols of militarism. This is the so-called "opposition candidate." :puke::puke:

[Woodstock]

37. Kerry was never even my #2 choice BUT

Dean throwing around the R word at this point is just plain WRONG.

I share your concerns that Kerry won't give Bush the hell he deserves. That was my concern in the beginning and it's my concern now.

Still, if he's the nominee, I'll back him fully. Which is why it's time for Dean to cut the crap with the R word.

This is not your typical campaign - too much is at stake. We have to oust the worst president in our nation's history - and save the country.

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Hear, hear! Dean is busily burning bridges while

the rest of us are hoping to defeat Bush. Kerry's not my first choice, and I have problems with him, but I'm ready to fall in line behind him.

At the Harkin Steak Fry, Bill Clinton said Democrats have to "fall in love" with a candidate while Republicans just fall in line behind whoever the party chooses.

We all fell in love. Some have seen their much-loved candidate leave the race already, others are still hoping for a surge for their man. We Kucinich supporters won't abandon Dennis by any means but almost all of us will be voting for whoever the presidential candidate with (D) after his name is. Supporters of other candidates should do the same: don't stop believing in your candidate but accept the reality of what Democratic voters are saying in state after state.

We all fell in love. The time is getting near to fall in line.

[Darth_Kitten]

74. Fall in line?

Sorry, but NOBODY should have to support a media driven candidate. Fall in line? Do what we are told? Accept things will never change? Ouch. No thank you, I can't be forced to accept anything .

[Dying Eagle]

9. Hey Dean and Kerry

Back off,we get it, you two hate each other. Lets stop hurting the party with this mud slinging

[SheilaT]

11. Dean is absolutely right.

Kerry is not God's Gift to the Democratic Party. He has shown virtually no leadership in 20 years in the Senate. When I learned of his appalling record at introducing bills and getting them passed, I could not believe that anyone would think he'd make a good president.

I'm just heartsick at the huge mistake the Democrats will be making if they nominate Kerry.

[MurikanDemocrat]

13. The first sentence says it all

"Dean knows all too well that time is running out"

[nradisic]

14. Dean IS right!

The Media has crowned Kerry the nominee sooner in the primaries than has ever been decided before...It also seems sad to me that most have ignored the fact that Kerry and the rest of the Dems actually decided to attempt to grow a spine way after DEan took up the banner. Both Kerry and Edwards have somewhat coopted Dean's message. Hey don't get me wrong, I'll take either Kerry or Edwards over Bush, but neither one of them is the best choice. Kerry is most ceratinly dependant on special interests and Edwards has received millions form lawyers. Dean has raised 89% of his $$$ from individual donations.

On the money issue...do you guys realize that Dean still has way more money than either Kerry or Edwards. The difference here is that in past primaries, because of the traditional way of raising money, a candidate like Dean ,that has been somewhat alienated would have run out of money a long time ago. Dean has a large, active and loyal base that is continually giving money. We want Dean to go all the way to the convention, even if we don't get the nomination, we will get our voices heard and be included in the platform. It will be lots of fun, no matter what

Howard Dean 2004

[Kahuna]

77. When the media crowned Dean the winner before any votes..

were cast did you complain? I remember Dean any many of his supporters telling us that resistance was futile. One week before the IA caucus, Dean was reportedly prepared to announce a kitchen cabinet.

Many of us do really rememeber how things really went down. The voters in IA and NH rejected Dean. The rest is history.

[stickdog]

15. Dean has a BIG problem with the truth.

He often tells it.

[madfloridian]

29. Oh, yeah, stickdog.

:D

[HuskerDem]

16. Everybody who is not Dean is a republican

When the hell is he going to realize how offensive and off-putting and tiresome that is? He looks desperate. Didn't he notice, this didn't really pan out that well for Lieberman either?

[eileen_d]

78. That's my take on it

Dean is the "real" Democrat, and all the others are just faking.

Speaking for myself, this is not an attractive method of campaigning.

[Mz Pip]

17. Dean

has an overblown opinion of himself. I think he sees himself as some kind of savior. Unfortunately, the voters don't and he can't seem to decide on a graceful exit strategy.

So will Dean continue to foul the nest until he loses 50 primaries?

Kerry may be many things, but a Republican is not one of them. He has a solid liberal record and his IWR vote should not negate 20 years of liberal politics.

Right or wrong, the voters are trying to go with a winner here. They seem to be rallying around Kerry because, unlike Clark, he has a track record of electablility and unlike Dean, he has foreign policy credentials.

This election will be about Dem turnout. If Kerry can get people to the polls, we can get Bush out. Dean isn't doing us any favors here.

MzPip
:dem;

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mz Pip]

22. If it's true

I agree. But allegations don't make it true, either.

If we are to cave into every allegation leveled at us by the Repugs, we are doomed. Who's to say they wouldn't try the same with Dean?

It's easy to sling mud.

MzPip
:dem:

[slinkerwink]

55. actually, Democrats levelled EVERY allegation against Dean

and we caved in----what does that say about us? We get too scared of a candidate that actually says what he believes.....

[saracat]

57. Interesting Belief System

Excuse me? Truth telling Dean lied during the SC Debate about Neel being a lobbyist and regularly attacks Kerry for having lobbyist connections, while never referring to the two other major lobbyists who run his campaign.And as for calling other people Republicans, did you know that his top fundraiser is a Republican woman named Moore? NPR did a story on this. And the so called liberal Governor was voted one of the five most conservative governors in the nation during his tenure of office. I also advise you to check out his affiliation with the Pharmaceutical Industry and IBM. Check his donor list.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. Welcome to DU saracat!!

You have an impressive command of the facts!

[saracat]

58. Allegations

And no one ever impugned Dean's marital relationship, questioned his honor, or even pointed out the hypocrisy of a wealthy man dressing in cheap suits and pretending to be a populist! Dean hasn't even been attacked for claiming to be fiscally conservative while blowing 40 million dollars of hard earned donations.Check out what he spent it on in Newsweek.By his own accounting , he spent a whopping portion on entertainment and chocolate truffles! Sure sounds like an average Joe that I can relate to! I can't put gas in my car let alone eat truffles and hire Carly Simon.
Kerry is being attacked more more seriously than Dean.Dean only allowed the press to point out what a jerk he made of himself!

[janx]

21. "Fowl the nest" ? (Foul the nest?)

This is the Dem primary. It's not as if he's not supposed to be around...

[Mz Pip]

24. I corrected my spelling

but the point is that he seems to be less about policy and more about trashing Kerry. He sounds desperate. That is not the posture of someone who thinks he can win. It is the posture of someone who wants to do a much damage before he leaves.

MzPip
:dem:

[janx]

33. His had his share of being on the other side of it.

It's an unfortunate part of politics. I can remember some moments when some of the other candidates looked pretty desperate to me, too.

[Nazgul35]

35. amen!

But where were the calls for Dem unity?

Oh the humanity!!!

[Edwards4President]

70. So Dean's answer is to behave the way he claims he was behaved upon?

"But, Mommy, he hit me FIRST!"

[Kahuna]

79. Howard Dean, "Somebody's has to win this thing..."

When he was complaining to Terry Mac about the negative attacks. Heal thyself Doctor. There can only be one winner. It apparently will not be you. Have a little dignity.

I think Dean should stay in as long as he wants. I'm not with the, follow the leader mentality. However, he should take a lesson from his losses. Calling Kerry a republican will not resonate with voters and cause them to abandon Kerry in favor of him. The latest poll announced showing Kerry beating bush by a substantial margin will speak louder to voters than anything Dean has to say at this point. Do, I believe the polls at this point? No. A poll cannot predict what will happen in November. But like it or not, voters are moved by the polls.

[Nazgul35]

34. wish I could read minds too!

Dean has an overblown opinion of himself. I think he sees himself as some kind of savior. Unfortunately, the voters don't and he can't seem to decide on a graceful exit strategy.

Perhaps, like I am sure the good General did, Dean is agonizing over all the good people who gave money they could not afford and time that was precious...

Perhaps Dean is staying in because he feels that to not try his hardest he would be letting down those 100s of thousands of supporters who gave him the opportunity to win when everyone laughed him off....

But maybe that's because I feel that all the Dems who enetered this race did so because they felt they wanted to do something to help their fellow Americans and save our country from the worst President in the history of this country....

So you go ahead and attack Dean as a cancer in our Party....

Oh, yeah...and when you said this:

This election will be about Dem turnout. If Kerry can get people to the polls, we can get Bush out. Dean isn't doing us any favors here.

Where you this honest back in December and early January when the other seven candidates were all ganging up on the front runner?

[Mz Pip]

38. That's a bit extreme

<So you go ahead and attack Dean as a cancer in our Party....>

No, I am not a Dean hater, but he's not winning me over by calling other candiates Republicans. He did it first to Clark and now seems to be doing it to Kerry.

Sorry, but his negativity towards the other candidates has become tiresome and that is what is so unfortunate about this. I wish I thought Dean's concern and outrage was because he cared about his supporters. You're right I'm not a mind reader, but actions speak pretty loudly here and Dean seems to be self destructing without much consideration for his supporters.

MzPip
:dem:

[For PaisAn]

45. don't forget that

Kerry also called Clark a Republican. It was on January 9th in a press release on his campaign website That certainly didn't win me over with Kerry.

“If you like Dick Cheney so much that you want another Republican lobbyist in the White House, then Wes Clark may be your guy. But if you want a fighter with a thirty-five year track record of taking on the special interests, then John Kerry is your candidate,” said Kerry spokesman Mark Kornblau.
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0109c.html

Whatever is on Senator Kerry’s website is legitimately considered approved by him or it shouldn't be there. There’s no hiding behind ghost "spokesmen" to blame for his lack of professionalism, honesty, and decency!

[Duder]

19. That's the problem with ABB

B is a snake and so the desperate don't have very high standards.

[sistersofmercy]

20. Oh well, what is Dean going to say, "good choice." ??????????????????

"You've got the right man." ????????? Oh Please! Hey but thanks for the laugh!

[Sushi-Lover]

39. That is what I thought too

What is he going to say? The primary is still ongoing .. is he going to say I think you should vote for the other guy? I could do without the 'acts like a Republican'. Maybe 'voted with Republicans on these important issues' and a list. Kerry people still wouldn't like that I suppose, but I think it would be fair.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mz Pip]

27. Then the

past 20 years have been some neocon plot to convince us that he is a liberal? Check his voting record.

MzPip
:dem:

[gate of the sun]

32. Yes he is correct

and I'm not sure how much better Dean is.....but he is right.I'm sorry to say too many here are closing their eyes and refusing to see the blatant truth about Kerry ......hey the dem will win....which of course he will because coincidentally bush is going down....and now that the media has picked Kerry and the ABB has picked Kerry that is what we will have...but we will have won a Presidency in Dem name only.....the party is lost.

[madfloridian]

26. When Dean is criticized, it is called "politics."

And we are told to take a deep cleansing breath. B-)

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[Woodstock]

36. I'm sick of Dean throwing the R word around

That is really a truly offensive thing to call another Democrat.

[Piperay]

63. THAT is absolutely

the very worst thing to call a Democrat, it is obscene. :puke:

[Capn Sunshine]

81. The hope is that they would stop behaving like them

it's not working apparently

[TheDonkey]

42. The Doctor is pitiful

I can't even stand him even more.

Kerry, Kerry, Kerry, Kerry....

[madfloridian]

52. No, there is nothing pitiful about an honest man.

He is too outspoken, but he is telling the truth. Not popular truth, either.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. Kerry's not a Republican if you look at his life's work.

1996-present...is a different story.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[LostInTheMaise]

49. I sent your post to Dean

What if Dean decides to go Green? Will you "savor every moment of it" then? Enjoy.

[George_Bonanza]

53. LOL

Kerry has a better shot with the Greens than Dean. It's pure media myth that Dean is a Green-ish candidate.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

51. Dean knows it is not about him.

We all know that. It is about something much bigger. Trippi knows it, too. He is continuing to believe.

Don't worry about the broken or destroyed Dean....he is quite aware of what has happened to him. So are we.

This is about so much more than just Dean. We are tired, but this movement is not over. It can't be.

[Tim_in_HK]

54. Ouch! That's pretty harsh

I'm not a big Dean fan either, but those are pretty harsh words. And it can't be denied that Dean has done some pretty incredible things for the Democratic Party in 2004.

[madfloridian]

46. Any of you remember a couple of debates?

Where each of the others directed their tirades toward Dean? Was that ok? Where was the outrage then?

The Torricelli ad and fundraising is getting NYT coverage tonight. Where was the outrage when the Osama ad ran.

I believe we were told to toughen up....that is politics...no child's game.

Have the rules changed?

[janx]

47. Apparently so.

:eyes:

[DemBones DemBones]

72. The rules are changed because Kerry is WINNING

and Dean is trying to take down the man he can't beat with votes by character assassination. It's unseemly behavior that reflects poorly on the party and helps the GOP with the smear campaign they'll wage against our nominee.

When Dean was the front-runner, his status as such was based on polls. Kerry's front-runner position is based on actual votes. That doesn't mean he can't be criticized, but it is time to think about the ramifications for the general election.

If Dean were winning and Kerry calling him a Republican and saying the party is making a 'grave mistake,' Kerry would be just as wrong as Dean is.

It's possible to campaign for president, and even criticize your rivals, without going to this extreme.

Dean isn't helping himself with such tactics. He might well get more votes if he stopped his heavy criticism of the front-runner.

[Darth_Kitten]

73. Heavy criticism? Geez, isn't that to be expected?

Yes, let's not question the front runner. Let's not speak out. Let's not bring up some very serious issues and make the front runner ACTUALLY address them.

Where is Dean going to the "extreme"?

[MurikanDemocrat]

48. Dean's unfavorable ratings continue to rise while his favorable decline

with rhetoric like this. Dean's insistence on promoting divisiveness is his downfall.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[notbush]

59. Dean

I thank him for his efforts to bring the party back to it roots.
His supporters are great.
He brought new life to this often "brain dead" party.
He was destroyed by the people he sought to help.

Go JFK..............

[Piperay]

62. How a person handles defeat is

more telling then how they handle victory. :-(

[krkaufman]

65. Then Howard should have put his support behind a viable candidate

... once it became *obvious* that his chances had gone to nil. His lingering in the race hurt the chances of the other viable non-Kerry candidates who were both winning more votes and delegates than he.*



* excludes superdelegates

[CWebster]

67. He is right

But what do we have to do with it? Kerry was promoted, Dean was assigned persona non grata.

The choice is made, the fix is in, consensus is molded, voters are herded, what do any of the issues---what does reality- have to do with any of it? They propped up Bush, now they prop up Kerry.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Who's Howard Dean-Duno Him...

NT

[burned]

75. dean

is not promoting divisiveness. He is not desperate. He is not stumbling. He is not 'not there'. He is not now and never will be a nobody. He has been taken down by the press and an immoral political climate that allows untruths to be spread as if they were breaking news. Just like Kerry's intern and his botox. His supporters want him to continue and he is. He has an honest message of hope and the backbone to have come out swinging when no one else would. It is my opinion that after the press gets through with bush (finally) Dean's stand on things will be the most attractive. He is not attacking Kerry like a hungry homeless dog like some of you and the press are insinuating. He is pointing out a record of actions that have supported the current badass administration. A republican one.

The people that keep throwing out these terms to describe an honest campaign are politically dirty. Just like Kerry et al became politically dirty at the start of this campaign with their lies and hints re. Dean. I watched it all and it cemented my choice for Dean.

It is now his right to point out their deficiencies without being called desperate and divisive. That is what the Republicans are calling the Dems for finally following Dean and questioning W. Are you with them? Are you going to sell your soul to support the playground king so you can be a winner to?

Fight fair, maybe lose a battle or two, but win the war in the end.
Stop bashing Dean like he's some sort of conceited upstart that needs taking down a notch. Its making you look bad. He's trying to save his country just like we are.

[molly]

76. Howard should emphasize ABB and bow out

gracefully.