Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Senator Boxer teams up with Joe Biden on his plan for Iraq

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 05:45 PM
Original message
Senator Boxer teams up with Joe Biden on his plan for Iraq
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/06/15/EDGKOP3GAP1.DTL&type=printable

A way forward in Iraq
Joe Biden, Barbara Boxer

Friday, June 15, 2007



When the president first outlined his plan for a surge in U.S. forces in Iraq this past January, he said the purpose was to bring the cycle of violence to an end and give the Iraqi government the breathing space it needs to make progress in other critical areas.

It is now the middle of June, and neither has happened. Some 230 American soldiers and Marines were killed in Iraq in April and May -- the deadliest two-month stretch since the war began more than four years ago. With American troops stuck in the middle of a sectarian civil war in Baghdad, the reality is that this trend will likely continue.

Last week, we surpassed the 3,500 death mark, and yet our president continues stubbornly forward with no proposed solution other than to send more of America's sons and daughters to Iraq.

Meanwhile, the Iraqis have not met the key benchmarks for progress that the president announced in January -- laws on oil, de-Baathification and provincial elections. And unfortunately, there is little prospect they will meet them anytime soon.

The mission in Iraq is based on a fatally flawed notion that the Iraqi people -- Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds -- will miraculously put aside their differences and come together to support a strong central government. Over the past several years, it has become increasing clear that the goal of achieving one central, stable government is simply not realistic.


article continues at link.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's not a great solution, but it might be better than nothing
Edited on Fri Jun-15-07 06:31 PM by TeamJordan23
The two strongest reasons I am against a Partition is that it will just make the surrounding countries stronger and also there will be be continued life-long tension between the various divisions (just think how Pakistan-India have never resolved their problems). Also, it would just be a very tough process to move everyone to their "correct" region.

But with conditions getting worse in Iraq, I am leaning more in favor on the plan, although not willing to embrace it just yet.

I do give it to Biden for having the most definitive plan for Iraq. I really wish he ran in 2004. I think he could have beaten up on W.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I really supported Kerry in 2004 and would again
But the one thing I think Biden has over Kerry is a big mouth :)
Kerry was, and is, a true gentleman. Extremely intelligent in many areas.
Biden speaks from his heart and I believe if by some miracle he makes it to the General, he won't let the Repugs get away with their bs.

Biden goes into your concerns in this:

http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=264909&
BIDEN-GELB Plan for Iraq: What It Is - and What It Is Not
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-15-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. It is the only way to move forward!
Sometimes you've got to take it apart before you can build it back in again?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peacetheonlyway Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-16-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
4. I would TOTALLY vote for a Biden/Boxer Presidental Ticket
Biden is my choice and I have voted with my money.
I just wish his campaign would call me or do something to get more organized.

I think a Boxer/Biden ticket would kill everyone.

america is not ready for a woman or an african american at the helm, but they are for a VP position.

that's my honest opinion not that Obama is not qualified just that america is not ready.

i'm for biden.

i'm for boxer.

this article shows intelligence beyond any foreign policy we've seen in over a decade.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demommom Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-16-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Peace- Biden/Boxer
Have you contacted the campaign and offered your help?:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-16-07 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. Bad idea and somewhat irrelevant
Firstly, there's no indication that partitioning countries solves the underlying problems - historically, it's an option that's been tried many times in attempts to solve civil wars and it usually results in (a) even greater bloodletting, (b) massive social and economic dislocations, (c) the creation of new states that are far weaker and more dependent on their neighbors than the preceding state, (d) less democracy, and (e) long-term perpetuation of a conflict. Without the warring groups contained with the same political framework, there is no incentive to eventually bridge their differences and conflicts wind up perpetuating. More fragmentation often ensues.

That isn't to say it ALWAYS is a bad idea - sometimes it's really the only option left. But the reasons I don't think these apply to Iraq are (a) there's no indication that the majority of Iraqis favor such an idea. Most of the major Shia parties are split over it with many in active opposition (i.e. neither the Sadrists nor the followers of Ayatollah Sistani support it) and the Sunnis are dead against a partition too. The most popular recent historical figure in Iraq remains Abdul Qarim Kasim, the president/leftist-dictator of Iraq in the late '50s/early '60s (overthrown by a Ba'athist coup encouraged by the CIA), who was half-Arab/half-Kurdish/half-Sunni/half-Shia and the proponent of a vigorous non-sectarian nationalism. Witness the outcry over the U.S. attempt to impose "walls" between different Sunni and Shia neighborhoods in Iraq.

Now, I'm not doubting that sectarian violence has spun wildly out of control. But in a power vacuum, these kinds of things are often the result of powerful but well-organized minority factions that are able to run rampant without anybody able to exercise restraint or control over them.

Eventually, a partition of Iraq may well occur (especially vis-a-vis the Kurdish north). If it happens in the Arab region, between Sunni and Shia, it won't be pretty and it may well make things worse. Nevertheless, whether it happens or not is up to the Iraqis - the U.S. has neither the moral authority nor the practical authority to make it happen. It's not our right to impose such a solution on the Iraqis (and in fact, historically, the effects of partition have been far worse when it's been imposed by outsiders) and, moreover, we can't control the country as is - our authority barely extends outside the Green Zone and other bases. How on earth does Biden expect that we'll be able to exercise the authority to split the country in the 3 separate ones?

And even if Biden ultimately proposes a weak central government, weak confederal states rarely work in a war setting; there is simply far too little holding any group back from declaring complete independence. Admittedly, Bosnia is an exception (so far) and it's possible that such a solution may work in the much-larger Iraq if the international community is absolutely adamant that they will not support any secession from the new, looser Iraq. But it would still be very difficult to control.

Honestly, we should just remove our troops from Iraq to bases in Kuwait and Turkey, maintain diplomatic connections and work to promote an actual power-sharing agreement and then if that government requests peacekeepers, we can agree to send peacekeepers to war-torn areas as part of a UN-authorized, international force including many troops from other countries. I see no reason why that idea is any less likely to result in a favorable outcome in the long-term than either a soft or hard partition.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov 03rd 2024, 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC