Here he comes...

[WilliamPitt]

Fri, Feb. 13, 2004

Nader expected to launch new bid for White House
By Maria Recio
Knight Ridder

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/7950408.htm

WASHINGTON - Oops, Ralph Nader's doing it again.

Almost exactly four years after he announced he would run for president, the former Green Party candidate is poised to declare that he is running again this year, this time as an independent.

Despite a vigorous effort on the part of the left to keep Nader from running and despite his insistence that he's still mulling over his decision, friends, associates and insiders say he is determined to run again.

"I think there's very little doubt," said Micah Sifry, the author of a book on third-party politics and a longtime Nader watcher. "I think he's going to run."

...more...

[donco6]

1. Idiot. eom

[ShaneGR]

2. The egomaniac strikes again.... Garbageman Bush Enabler

Once again, the man before the country. In the public's interest my arse. At least the Greens aren't backing him this time.

[maddezmom]

3. not surprised

IIRC he said if Dean didn't get the nod, he'd run. And at the same time he supported Dennis Kucinich.

[liberalnurse]

17. I'm sorry, maybe its the fact that I've just completed

a double shift....but I can't find any mention of Dean in the article? Nader can do what he wants but Dean said he would back the nominee and he indeed will do just that.


I may puke but I follow Dean.....I promised.

[maddezmom]

25. it wasn't from this article

He mentioned this earlier in the year on a talk show a while back. Sorry for the confusion.

[ShimokitaJer]

72. link?

[maddezmom]

85. here's a start

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2003/12/19/17427/859

and listen to

http://www.cspan.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=ralph+nader+crashing+the+party&image1.x=13&image1.y=5

[ozone_man]

106. Yes, he did say that.

He only saw these two as being appreciably different from the rest. I will vote for Dean as a write-in this time as I think many who voted for Nader last time will do.

[BootinUp]

4. Oh Dear, somebody stop him!

Yeeeeaaaaaaarrrrgrgrgggghhhhh!

[Iverson]

5. burn the witch

Hold your breath. The Emergency Denunciation Squad is running to save the day.

[ShimokitaJer]

74. Nader turned me into a NEWT!

Don't you know Nader is single-handedly responsible for the DLC's choice of Lieberman as running mate, for Gore failing to address liberal issues in his campaign, for the Republican party's disenfranchising of Florida voters, for the DLC's insistence that only certain counties be recounted, and for the immoral decision of the Supreme Court to stop the recount... not to mention the 20% of Democratic voters who voted for Bush in 2000.

Wait, that wasn't Nader...

Burn him anyway!!!! Ya har!!!

--Those who delight in blaming Nader for the Democratic party's shift to the right and subsequent loss of voters ought to be examining why they keep guaranteeing their vote to the party while having their concerns ignored in the party platform.--

[WilliamPitt]

103. I got better

:)

[Bucky]

172. Nah, but he helped turn the country over to Newt's friends.

It's a matter of raw votes. People who support the nominee, no matter what, understand we live in a Madisonian democracy. That is, we live in a country in which a plurality of interest groups can only advance their causes by forming coalitions and cooperating w/ each other.

Those who insist on purity from the nominee and consider the selection of a VP running mate from a different wing of the party a "sell-out" fail to understand Madisonian democracy. They, instead, seem to mimic the practices of the extreme right wing by treating a campaign as a sort of crusade in which ideology is more important than accomplishment.

The selection of Lieberman as Gore's running mate didn't bother me. He's not my cup of tea, but he's got a pretty damn progressive record in Congress and helped covered our flank in an important election. That's not a bad thing. Losing is a bad thing, and I'm not willing to lose over unrealistic principles.

[eileen_d]

6. Walking down the street...

He gets the funniest looks from
Everyone he meets...

Hey hey, it's Ralph Nader!
People say he's running for prez...

[WilliamPitt]

7. I was hoping someone would run with that

:)

[eileen_d]

11. I couldn't remember the rest of the lyrics

But I'm glad I got your point.

My official opinion on a Ralph Nader candidacy follows:






















(i.e. I don't care what Nader does. It's a free country.)

[maddezmom]

61. ya can download the song

http://timstvshowcase.com/monkees.html

[shanti]

87. get the funniest looks from

everyone he meets! hey hey he's a monkey! lol

[Kahuna]

45. LOL! You're pretty funny. He'd sure get a funny look from me.

If Nader comes any where near me, I have a few choice words for him.

[eileen_d]

55. From the looks of the picture in the original post

Nader might look a little funny, right back at ya! ;)

[rucky]

70. But he's too busy ego-trippin'...

For anyone to give him some credz.

[Guaranteed]

8. Hey...Dean people have someone to vote for!

ABB wha?

[Kahuna]

47. Yeah! That's what I'm saying.

:shrug:

[oasis]

59. Some Dean supporters vowed Dean would be a write in on their ballot.

[Guaranteed]

75. That works too. nt

[Brian_Expat]

9. This is probably a reaction to Kerry's eventual nomination

Given that Kerry supported PATRIOT Act, No Child Left Behind, the Bush tax cuts, the creation of the Homeland Security Office, etc., Nader probably decided a real left candidate was needed in the election.

After Democrats lose the presidential election AGAIN, it won't be because of the Democrats' own candidate. Oh no. It will be because of Nader and Dean and those evil, evil librul voters. Oh, and the homosexuals for bringing up marriage during an important election season. Everyone's fault but our own, damn it!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

12. don't forget NAFTA, "Free Trade Agreements", the WTO and the rest

I'll be surprised if the Greens don't run someone too.

[corporatewhore]

158. david cobb but only if dk dont get it

[WilliamPitt]

13. Yeah, we need a 'real Left' candidate

because Dennis Kucinich totally isn't running.

Or something.

[ShaneGR]

15. Lol

The funny part is they think Nader actually cares.

[Brian_Expat]

19. I'm not a Nader supporter BUT. . .

. . . if they don't know Nader doesn't care, I think they're all too aware that Kerry certainly DOESN'T care about their concerns.

[no name no slogan]

138. ....you play one on TV? (nt)

:D

[Brian_Expat]

16. Kucinich isn't getting the nomination.

Meanwhile, the Kerry Democrats have done exactly ZIPPO to get the votes of leftists, liberals, or even progressive moderates like me who view this election as more than just a beauty contest.

[ShaneGR]

20. Uh, have you seen the vote totals?

Seems to me Kerry is getting plenty of leftists, liberal and progressive moderates. Perhaps they're smart enough not to fall for the "Gore is the same as Bush" thing again?

[Brian_Expat]

You cannot have it both ways

Seems to me Kerry is getting plenty of leftists, liberal and progressive moderates. Perhaps they're smart enough not to fall for the "Gore is the same as Bush" thing again?

If that's the case, there's no need to attack Mr. Nader for exercising his right to run as a candidate for public office.

What I suspect is that you know this ISN'T the case, and fear Mr. Nader will "pull off voters from the left." In that case, the fact that he does so will primarily be Kerry's fault -- if Kerry cannot differentiate himself from Bush enough to appeal to progmods like myself, whose fault is that? Not mine, and not Mr. Nader's.

[ShaneGR]

33. Hey, if you want to help Bush

Go ahead, more power to ya.

[Brian_Expat]

41. I haven't helped Bush. . .

. . . I worked against candidates who agree with Bush's positions. Unfortunately, looks like I probably lost.

[ShaneGR]

46. No, anyone who works against the Dem nominee is helping Bush in the GE

Period. It's REALITY. It's unfortunate that we have the system we do. But Ralph Nader already helped elect Bush once, and for anyone to help him do it again is, in my book, enabling another 4 years of Bush. The whole Gore/Kerry are the same as Bush is absolute hogwash, and you know it. You just refuse to admit it.

[Iverson]

56. If you isn't wiv us, you agin' us.

Where have we heard that before?

[Brian_Expat]

65. Bingo!

I could use the same argument with John Kerry, BTW.

John Kerry is not completely committed to gay equality, thus he's an anti-gay bigot on par with John Ashcroft, Jerry Falwell or Anita Bryant! After all, he's not with us, so he's against us.

[nonconformist]

120. We don't have an nominee yet

But for the record, I agree with you on Nadar. Terrible mistake.

[nonconformist]

110. They're scared

They want Bush out at all costs, and the talking heads on TV keep saying that Kerry is the most electable. Dean's too angry and Kucinich... who?

This is our election to lose. So it's amazing what some of us are willing to sacrifice because the pundits are telling us who will beat Bush. Even more amazing is that we're actually buying into it.

[WilliamPitt]

24. Neither is Nader

Point?

[Brian_Expat]

32. Point is that there will be an alternative for left-leaners in the GE. n/t

[ShaneGR]

36. Unfortunately

There will be no alternative once Bush gets re-elected. But no biggie. Bush isn't that bad.

[Brian_Expat]

44. Democracy is a two-way street

You cannot force your choice on the lefties and then have a tantrum when they choose not to support you.

The best way to influence their votes is to listen to their concerns and let them know they're welcome in POLICY discussions, not just as a "vote for my guy or else" sense. Dean's centrist campaign was excellent at this, which is why it garnered support from across the political spectrum of the Democratic Party.

[ShaneGR]

50. We have listened to their concerns, a million times

The Democratic Party could jump through hoops and people would still want to help elect Bush. It boggles my mind. Twilight Zone stuff.

[Brian_Expat]

63. You haven't listened

You've nodded your head and then started to make fun of them.

They know the difference.

Either you want their votes and invite them to participate in the party with a real role in making policy, or you dismiss them as a fringe and lose their votes. You cannot ignore them, decry them as a source of all evil, attack them as "helping Bush," completely ignore their policy concerns, and then expect them to cast a ballot for your guy.

[saracat]

131. Forcing a choice

Who is forcing a choice? The people are obviously voting for Kerry.The Dean campaign is trying to force their choice on all the rest of us and it isn't working. Kerry has the most liberal voting record of the candidates. Why do you think the RNC is using his voting record against him and painting him as "more liberal than Ted Kennedy"? And Kennedy sponsored No Child Left Behind.Or maybe you don't consider Kennedy a liberal? Kerry has the best civil rights record and over a twenty year period!
Howard Dean was voted by the Governors Assoc. as one of the five most conservative governors in the country! He didn't even willingly sign the Domestic Partnership Act. That was determined by the legislature and he signed it with no fanfare and in secrecy while waiting to determine which political current to catch. And recently, he has stated exactly the same position on Domestic Partnership as Kerry. Dean doesn't support gay marriage either! So what is your point?
Electability IS the issue, and Kerry is a liberal being guised as a moderate , which will only help us win the general election.Remember Bush won appearing to be a "moderate" and look what happened once he took office! This election is too important to take chances .Taking back the country is more important than using the Democratic Platform to radically promote the ideas of anyone's agenda.In our case, the ends DO justify the means.We must win first in order to make a difference.

[Crunchy Frog]

168. No, but if those "lefties"

end up helping in enabling Bush to get another 4 years in power, they have absolutely nothing to complain about when they experience the consequences of their choices.

If you want to vote 3rd party because Kerry isn't absolutely perfect on gay issues, then don't come whining to me when a constitutional ammendment banning gay marriage passes, or when we have 3 or 4 more Scalias on the Supreme Court who decide that it's OK to pass laws against sodomy after all. To say nothing of the much worse nightmare scenarios that I think are a possibility with another 4 years of Bush.

If you think that this year is the right time to vote 3rd party because the Democratic candidate isn't perfect, I will laugh at you when you come around whining about Bush's latest outrage. You f***'n brought it on yourself.

[molly]

37. I don't understand your definition of "left-leaner"

it certainly was not HD.

[Brian_Expat]

51. Left leaners are a big bunch

And you're right, HD wasn't a left leaner (though that didn't stop the Kerry campaign from painting him as to the left of Marx).

Dean's campaign was successful because he encouraged support and policy ideas from every part of the political spectrum. That's why centre-progressives like me, as well as left-wing folks like Greens, supported him.

Kerry's campaign completely excluded people who weren't in the conservative to moderate wing of the party, campaigned on electability, actively ridiculed them for our ideas, etc. Now it's demanding votes from the same people it ridiculed and can only give Bush as a reason. Well, of course the lefties don't like Bush -- but that doesn't mean they like Kerry, either.

The way to get votes from the Nader supporters is to run like a real Democrat -- of course, it's much easier to talk about how awful Nader is, how stupid his supporters are, and huff and puff, and guarantee that Kerry does lose, isn't it?

After all, we cannot rethink our way of doing business, even a little, to make Nader supporters feel welcome, can we? 'Twould be sacrilege!

[eileen_d]

66. I have some questions about how Kerry

or Kerry's campaign:

1) excluded people who weren't in the conservative to moderate wing of the party
- Did you actually go knocking on Kerry's door and get turned away? Or are you saying that Kerry's positions are excluding you?

2) campaigned on electability
- What candidate doesn't? Candidates who run for president generally have getting elected as their primary goal. Unless I misunderstand what your definition of "electablility" is.

3) actively ridiculed them ("left-leaners") for our ideas
- Show me the actions.

4) is demanding votes from the same people it ridiculed
- Democratic candidates generally solicit votes from other Democrats. It's called campaigning. You are free to refuse.

[Brian_Expat]

69. I'm not in Nader's constiency, but will answer your questions.

Did you actually go knocking on Kerry's door and get turned away? Or are you saying that Kerry's positions are excluding you?

The Nader voters find little in Kerry's platform to support. Period. On a range of issues, Kerry's viewed as too conservative.

What candidate doesn't? Candidates who run for president generally have getting elected as their primary goal. Unless I misunderstand what your definition of "electablility" is.

"Electability" as conservative policy. Pro-Iraq War. Pro-drug war. Anti-gay (by Democratic standards). Etc.

Show me the actions.

This thread is a great example. And please don't say you're not the official campaign, because in reality, any supporter of any candidate is part of the campaign.

Democratic candidates generally solicit votes from other Democrats.

Most of Nader's supporters in 2000 weren't Democrats. That hasn't stopped Democrats from smearing them as the sole reason Gore lost the election.

[eileen_d]

71. Thank you for answering

I never considered "electability" to be synonymous with "conservative policy" so I can't help you there.

I do not consider a thread in the Democratic Underground a campaign "action", but apparently you do, so I can't help you there either.

In short, I will agree to disagree with you.

I am not and have never been a person who blames Nader for Gore's loss in 2000. As I said further up the thread, it's a free country. If Nader wants to run, and if Nader attracts left-leaning voters, it's none of my business. Although it seems to me that in 2004 Kucinich is an equally, if not more, viable candidate.

[Crunchy Frog]

169. I was a Nader voter

in the last election. This time I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole. I am not a Kerry supporter, but for me in this election, the only issue that I really care about is getting Bush out of office. If we don't do that, then nothing else that we care about is even going to matter.

I can't really speak for other Nader voters. I admit to not being a far lefty, but I am pretty liberal, and I'm reasonably comfortable with Kerry's platform. But I would still vote for him even if I was a good deal less comfortable with it because BUSH MUST GO.

Now is not the time to try to remake the system. Democracy itself is at stake, and there may not even be anything left to reform if Bush gets 4 more years.

Somehow though, I kind of get the impression that that doesn't really bother you.

[Kahuna]

53. I hope you're not of draft age or gay. Because if bush..

wins you have a probable draft and anti-gay marraige constitutional amendment in your future.

[Brian_Expat]

67. On the anti-gay amendment. . .

. . . the Republicans will push it regardless of who the president is. And John Kerry hasn't ruled out supporting anti-gay amendments (on the state level). For me, that's not good enough.

[Hippo_Tron]

112. Its better than Bush who will have a US constitutional ammendment...

That will probably ban even civil unions.

[goobergunch]

77. Rep. Charlie Rangel has endorsed Kerry

He has also sponsored a bill (H.R. 163) to reinstate the draft.

http://www.rollcall.com/issues/49_78/news/4360-1.html

[Hippo_Tron]

111. Ummmm...

Apologizing to the UN and getting allied support on board for Iraq, healthcare for all Americans, raising taxes on the wealthiest 1%, getting rid of no child left behind, community service for college tuition program, fixing the god aweful medicare bill, and so much more.

Yup Kerry really is not campaigning on anything liberal.
:eyes:

[Guaranteed]

21. Kucinich isn't running.

Kerry's our nominee, remember?

[eileen_d]

28. Kucinich is TOO running

What I don't get is why some people who support Dean ignore DK.

[diamondsoul]

82. *snicker*

I guess somebody should tell that to the 15+% of voters in Maine who voted Kucinich, huh?

[Terwilliger]

127. Will Kucinich be "running" after the party convention Will?

is he going rogue and declaring a Democratic party candidacy even without the nomination from his party?

[diamondsoul]

160. Why are you asking that, Ter?

He's already declared his candidacy for his House seat in the event he doesn't get the nomination. He's said over and over there won't be a 3rd Party or Indy run.

What exactly should he do to stop this question from being asked when it's been answered from the beginning and reinforced at every turn?

[revcarol]

147. The Greens here who turned Democratic

want ONLY Kucinich.

[Rose Siding]

14. It's a reaction to the rigidity of the Party

Establishment Democrats refuse to learn, no matter the cost.

[mmonk]

10. yep, already read about it

He's come to help America!

[farmbo]

18. This man is crying out for a Botox scandal....

Ralphy is looking like the Undead... after a three day bender.

[Padraig18]

22. I hope somebody pies him during a speech!

:puke:

[Terwilliger]

128. sorry, Kerry already landed in that soup

Ralph Nader isn't interested in his personal image like so many other people are.

[PAMod]

23. Yet another bitter irony for our party...

we choose the most famous, safe, comfortable candidate to appeal to the "swing voters", thereby leaving our "left" flank (our base, no less!) vulnerable AGAIN to a third party candidate.

It would be funny if it weren't so awful.

Hopefully we'll be able to paint Nader as a figure from the past, or as an egomaniac - as something other than a progressive third option.

[bigtree]

88. Left Flank

Dennis Kucinich is still running. See him Sunday in the debate.

[Armstead]

26. Kerry and the Democratic leadership could defuse this

The problem is Nader articulates what Democrats like Kerry ignore. Although he is an egocentric buffon, and his strategy of running for president is misguided, nader does speak the truth about the problems of corporate power and the loss of democracy today.

Nader ses his role as keeping the campaigns honest. Personally, I think that's stupid this time around, because he will only be a distraction.

However, something is needed to prevemnt the Democrats from slipping into an ABB Coma in this yeat's campaign -- and after.

Kucinich addresses the real issues. Dean addresses them. Sharpton addresses it. Edwatds sorta addresses it.

Kerry pays lip service but basically ignores it.

If Kerry becomes the nominee, he ought to be locked in a room with Kucinich, Dean and Sharpton and get some edumacation in real progressive populism.

If he were to do that, and mean it, there would be no need for a Nader in this race.

[Iverson]

35. oh, sure

However, you may have noticed that at the mention of Nader's name, so-called progressives reflexively foam at the mouth in their version of Hillary bashing. Cool heads do not prevail.

When Kucinich gets equated to Rumsfeld by the corporate wing of the party, and when he and Sharpton don't deserve a place in party debates, according to the New York Times, don't expect the Dems to do anything but the rightward shuffle.

[Armstead]

48. I notice it

Personally I've spent many a post defending the Greens and Nader for running in 2000.

I do see this year as different than 2000, and I honestly believe a third party candidate would be a desttructive distraction.

But I share your dismay at the prospect of anotehr stale "centrist" election in which the Democrats only nip at the surface and non-issues. And which marginalizes and insults anyone who doesn;t blindly jump on the Democrat Corporate bandwagon.

That's what the challenge is.

[Crunchy Frog]

171. I'm perfectly happy to slip into an ABB coma

for the duration of this election season. Once it's over I plan on raising hell, but during this election the only priority for me is getting rid of Bush.

[EXE619K]

27. Here comes the status quo!

Passing judgments even before the situation with Nader is confirmed.

My vote is my voice.

It doesn't matter who the "front runner" is.

[dolo amber]

29. To save the day?

NOT!

:P

(I agree wholeheartedly with the above poster who said "It's a free country"...)

[eileen_d]

42. That is, like, so totally CUTE!

I love Mighty Mouse. I didn't know he was a shill for American patriotism though (just kidding!) ;)

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[nightperson]

31. Nice photo.

Looks like he's been in training and really has the eye of the tiger this time. "More Viagra and meth! No sleep 'til the White House!"

[BeatleBoot]

34. Nader is Bush's Only Hope

I can just picture Rove and Rummy high-fiving each other.

[molly]

40. Along with Nader!

[Virginian]

38. Why does Nader like Bush so much that he wants

That he wants to suck votes from Bush's opponent?
He is a smart man. Why isn't he working with the system to make change rather than fighting the system and causing it to be just the opposite of what he says he wants.
Is he secretly a fan of the BFEE or a silent member of PNAC?

[saracat]

126. Nader Suspicions

I have always been suspect since one of the major papers, I think the NYTimes , did a story that revealed the fact that Nader is housed by Donald Trump at the Trump Towers.Trump also pays most of his expenses. I only remember this because it came out slightly after 2000 and I found it so bizarre!

[ludwigb]

39. I don't believe it, personally

I saw Nader on CSPAN not long ago and he is definetely anti-Bush. He rationalized a potential candidacy on the idea that a "2-pronged" strategy would "siphon off" more votes from Bush. It's a silly argument and I'm pretty sure he knows it. It sounded to me like he had already decided against running. But on the other hand, Dean was the likely nominee at that time and Nader was pretty ambivalent about Dean. Who knows what he thinks of (free-trader) Kerry.

Nader would be running without the Green Party organizational structure and without the left celebrity base (most of which has rallied behind Kucinich). Rather than the adoring collegiate hordes of 2000, Nader would surely be met with abuse and threats on a daily basis.

IMO, he'd be absolutely crazy to run. I don't believe he will run, but since this is Nader we're talking about, I won't put any money on it.

[CabalBuster]

43. We need to fight against big corporations and the status quo

If the DLC, the media and the establishment won't let Dean and Kucinich be the democratic nominee, my vote will go to Ralph. It is time to send a message to the DLC, business as usual with an insider demagogue candidate (Kerry) is NOT okay. I will not be fooled into supporting a Skulls and Bones oligarch.

[lancdem]

52. No, the voters are the ones who picked Kerry

Not some "establishment." Give me a break.

[ShaneGR]

54. Time for you to take a second look at Edwards

He's anti-NAFTA and anti-corporation. Why exactly do you think Kucinich and Edwards struck a deal in Iowa? Could it be they have the same domestic positions on trade?

[Kahuna]

57. We need to fight against unjust wars and an anti-gay agenda..

Voting for anybody but the Dem nominee is a vote for bush's agenda.

[Brian_Expat]

60. That argument would have more weight. . .

. . . if the likely nominee didn't vote for the Iraq War and stands against anti-gay laws without reservation. Neither is the case with Kerry.

[Terwilliger]

129. forget it

If it was spelled out in black and white, Dems wouldn't see it

[Lydia Leftcoast]

49. More motivation for banging head against wall

If you're so all-fired against Kerry because you're a "leftist," vote for the most leftwing of the Dem candidates in your state's primary, and that's Dennis Kucinich.

[Brian_Expat]

58. The problem is. . .

You're basically screwed if you're a leftist.

Kucinich won't get the nomination.

Kerry probably will -- and if Kerry does, you're going to be completely ignored and marginalized and MOCKED by people who are simultaneously demanding your vote, only to go back to mocking you after you give it to them.

Of course, ONE of these things could be changed by the Democratic Party -- the latter -- but it won't be. The insults towards the leftier types will continue, Nader will come along, take away 5% of the left's vote, and cost the Dems the election.

Rather than examine why we continue to lose votes -- over principles and whether we're a big tent -- we'll continue instead to blame Nader, Dean, voters, Diebold, ANYTHING that doesn't force us to be realistic and examine the full political spectrum and campaign on real principles.

[diamondsoul]

78. Oh what nonsense.

Can I borrow your crystal ball so I can check tomorrow's lottery numbers?:eyes:

Yes, Kerry looks good today. Funny thing, last month Dean looked just as good.

Kucinich and Sharpton are the only two candidates left who can effectively challenge Kerry on the issues. Sharpton's success at it will be considerably less because he didn't have the opportunity to vote on the issues while both Kucinich and Kerry did. It is STILL ENTIRELY POSSIBLE for Kucinich to win the nomination. Good Gawd, no wonder the country is a disaster! People give up with less than half the country voting!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. He won't even come close to the votes he got in 00

Let him run. It's a non issue.

[Terwilliger]

130. that's right

that's why the entire freakin' world seems to be freakin' out over this man...he'll be even MORE irrelevant this year than in 2000

Hmmm...maybe I need a new definition of "irrelevant" to fit the circumstances.

[lancdem]

64. I'm not worried if Nader runs

If you read the article, you'll see it says he's going to have trouble getting anywhere near the money and support he got last time. People who vote for him are probably those who wouldn't have voted for Kerry anyway. He won't cost us the election.

[mgc1961]

68. DK is my Presidential choice.

That will not change. If, if, Kerry wins the nomination he should take great care in his selection of a running mate because the wrong choice will seriously lessen any chance of my support in the general election up to and including losing my vote.

[molly]

73. He always looks like he just climbed out of bed

and does not have a pot to piss in. In reality, he's a very wealthy man. Can anyone say "advantageous chameleon"?

[lams712]

76. I LOVE Ralph Nader and voted for him in 2000 (hey, don't....

...get on my case, Bush carried my state handily), but I am a little DIAPPOINTED. Dennis Kucinich is a real-life PROGRESSIVE candidate, and Nader earlier last year was saying good things about Dennis, stopping short of endorsing him.

I think Nader is reacting to John Kerry and viewing him as the eventual nominee. There are many things that Kerry has supported (No Child Left Behind, the Patriot Act, War w/ Iraq, Welfare Reform, NAFTA, WTO, and others) that make people on the left less than enthusiastic.

If Kerry is the nominee, I think it's good to have options. If Kerry runs his general election campaign like a Republican-lite, DLC-centrist, I would have no problem voting for someone like Ralph Nader. However if Kerry runs his general election campaign like his current primary campaign, then it's GOODBYE RALPH!!!

[diamondsoul]

79. I just keep writing Ralph.

I went to his site and wrote him my thoughts as soon as I heard about the exploratory committee. Since then he's sent out two more requests and each time I've said the same thing- Endorse Kucinich and please don't run this year.

[molly]

81. Ralphie is an ego-maniac and thus won't endorse anyone

but himself.

[diamondsoul]

86. I disagree entirely, but to each his/her own.

Nader is a pissed off citizen with a lot of extremely insightful views. Egomaniac- well aren't they all to an extent? I mean seriously, how can you possibly believe you're qualified to lead the largest military power in the world unless you've got a slightly inflated ego??

SHEEEWWWW Not ME, Jack! If there was a draft movement to get me to run for office, I'd haul ass in the opposite direction! LOL

I've learned a lot about what we call Democracy in this country just from working to support Kucinich. Let me tell you something- for the first time I am well and truly sickened by what we define as "democratic". So is Ralph Nader and he's been sickened for a lot longer than I have. He's also had the gigantic brass cajones to DO something about it. Successful or not, I commend him for it.

[NNN0LHI]

80. You LOVE Ralph Nader? Holy Jesus n/t

[lams712]

151. Yeah, but not in a "homosexual" way....n/t

[shivaji]

83. This is a free country, Nader, Perot, Jesse, Wallace......they all

can run as far as I am concerned. More the merrier. The two party
system makes both of them arrogant and power intoxicated. Democracy
is better served when there is a lot of choice.

[molly]

93. Thankyou Perot - you gave us Clinton!

[Hippo_Tron]

114. That's arguable...

Ross Perot really took away votes from Clinton and Bush.

[mikehiggins]

139. Au contraire, my friend

The vast majority of votes that Perot gathered that first time, almost 19% of those Americans who voted, came from Bush's campaign.

And that was Ross' intent from the outset. He really couldn't give a rat's ass who was President, as long as it wasn't Bush. He was the first real ABB campaigner in this country, and he won his campaign.

The second race was more of an ego-trip, and the results showed it.

What did he care? He had his billions and his airport and his D.C. connections AND he beat George Bush, a man he believed had buried any number of POW/MIA Americans in order to close the books on that for Reagan. When you think about how far Perot went to snatch his people out of Iran you can get an idea of how fanatically loyal the man can be.

Too bad he doesn't hold the son in similar low regard. Soros could put his checkbook away and the air would be filled with anti-Bush ads.

[molly]

149. Maybe - just maybe - we can only wait and hope

[Pepperbelly]

84. Ralphie never learns and ...

apparently would rather feed his ego and destroy America than lay low and get the Pirates of BUSHCO out of power.

And he sounds so reasonable until you watch his actions.

:shrug:

[Meldread]

89. Told you so. Told you so. TOLD YOU SO!

I told you he would run again if Kerry got the nomination. Stick a fork in Kerry he's done. Say hello to another 4 years of Bush. Nader is going to run in all the swing states and attract JUST enough votes away from Kerry for Bush to win those states.

Oh well. It's the voters fault for picking Kerry. I suppose now they'll eat their just deserts.

[eileen_d]

90. Is the sky going to fall too?

Honestly... the power of negative thinking.

[Malikshah]

94. Nothing to do with negative thinking

It's reality.

It's an accident you see coming down the pike and although you work like hell to avoid it by turning the steering wheel--someone else in the car is turning the steering wheel head on into the accident.

The problem is, I don't deserve another 4 years of *. There's a lot of us who don't deserve this...hell the whole world doesn't deserve this.

There are some, however, who are culpable--and for them--let the karmic rain fall.

[eileen_d]

96. None of these assertions are based in reality.

1) "Stick a fork in Kerry he's done."
Kerry is still running. This is a fact.

2) "Say hello to another 4 years of Bush."
Bush has not been elected for another 4 years. This is a fact.

3) "Nader is going to run in all the swing states and attract JUST enough votes away from Kerry for Bush to win those states."
Neither Nader, Kerry nor Bush has not yet attracted a single verifiable vote in the General Election (which will occur in November 2004). This is a fact.

Heck - Kerry has not been nominated yet, no matter what the evil media says.

Negative projections like those are for people who have given up. I haven't given up.

[Malikshah]

98. Nor have I

Even though countless folks here tell me to "get over it" and the media has already adjusted the size of the lecturns for the debates.

I'll continue to grip the steering wheel and fight to wrest from the hands of those who wish to steer us into oblivion.

And folks wonder why there is so much anger on the boards these days.

I don't think some folks have the faintest clue of what's at stake.

This thread will hopefully wake up some of the sleepier out there

[Kahuna]

108. It's NOT a reality. Nader got 3% in 2000. He'll be lucky..

to get 1% this time. Ask Pat Buchannan how that works.

[Meldread]

97. Like I said in the past: A vote for Kerry is a vote for Nader.

Nader all but said that he would run if Kerry was the nominee. People can scream a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, but a vote for Kerry is a vote for Nader!

It's not negative thinking -- it's fact.

[eileen_d]

99. It's your opinion.

Do not ask me to accept it as fact, because I will not.

A vote for Nader is a vote for Nader.
A vote for Kerry is a vote for Kerry.
A vote for Bush is a vote for Bush.

[Meldread]

100. Oh, I would agree.

I support Nader running. It's a free country and having more people run strengthens our Democracy. If Nader can do what Dean done and get Kerry motivated then Nader better get his ass in the race.

However, I am not using reality logic. I'm using ABB logic. In the rationality of an ABB person: "If you don't vote for MY candidate, then you are voting for Bush." (Akin to Bush's "You're either with us or with the terrorists.")

The ABB people, especially many Kerry supporters, are trying to force Kerry down our throats. People are voting for electability. Fact of the matter is Kerry is going to cause Nader to run, and because of that Nader will siphon off votes that would otherwise vote for Kerry. (I'm likely one of them -- if Kerry doesn't come up with some good, hard, straight talking answers before November he isn't gonna get my vote plain and simple.)

So I am attacking the ABB people with their own logic: If you vote for Kerry then you are voting for Nader. Hopefully that'll be something *THEY* understand because it's in their realm of reality.

(Of course not all ABB people are like that, but a large majority of them are.)

[eileen_d]

101. Good luck with that. eom

[Tinoire]

91. Good. Let the idea of losing Progressive votes AGAIN put the fear

of GOD into the DNC and DLC.

[JVS]

109. Yes indeed. The leftist cavalry has arrived!

[Renew Deal]

92. This fad is over. A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.

It's that simple.

Nader isn't even Green anymore. The greens may put up their own candidate, but even they want Bush gone more that they want to make a statement. But if they want to make a statement it will be: I am helping Bush get reelect by voting for Nader, or whoever that is not the edem nominee. It was cool to vote for Nader 4 years ago. That fad is over.

[molly]

95. Ralphie will run as a pug if he thought he had a chance

I think most have learned about him the hard way.

[Meldread]

105. A vote for Kerry is a vote for Nader!

It's that simple.

If you don't want Nader to run don't vote for Kerry. Vote for Dean or Dennis.

[Renew Deal]

140. Is that a threat?

No one cares about these silly threats.

[IndianaGreen]

102. Nader may be an egotistical idiot, but he makes a very good point!

Nader, in an interview Feb. 4 on National Public Radio, responded with irritation to the effort to stop him: "It's a marvelous demonstration by liberals, if you will, of censorship. Now mind you, running for political office is every American's right. Running for political office means free-speech exercise; it means exercising the right of petition, the right of assembly. ... To say `Do not run' to anybody is to say, `Do not speak. Do not petition. Do not assemble. Remain silent.' That's just unacceptable, especially coming from people like the editors of The Nation."

Now, compare what Nader is saying with this wonderful post that discusses PNAC and the DLC flip side to PNAC, the Progressive Policy Institute (PPI):

Kerry, the New Democrats, and American Military Hegemony

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=326015

I will remind everyone that Nader is not running under the Green banner. Nader is not, and has never been a Green. Nader is running as an independent.

[corporatewhore]

161. David Cobb is running as a green who i intend to vote for if DK dontmakeit

[aldian159]

104. Here he comes...

here comes Speed Racer! He's a demon on wheels!

Or maybe just a racer on speed?

[maxanne]

107. I'd suggest

that the Blame Nader First crowd place the blame squarely where it belongs - on Al Gore's crappy campaign in 2000 - the Democratic Party Establishment, which is responsible for the crappy candidates we continue to have foised upon us - and every single one of the apathetic voters who sat home on election day 2000.

[Hippo_Tron]

119. I'll admit Al Gore ran a very shitty campaign...

But had nader not run for president in 2000 then we wouldn't have chimp in the white house. Its not entirely Nader's fault for all of the damage that chimp has done but he's still responsible.

[Terwilliger]

113. This thread...just one GIANT example of why I'll vote for him again

Democrats and democracy...strange bedfellows, apparently

[JVS]

115. What do you think of him no longer being a Green?

I think that it might help him appeal to a wider spectrum of people.

[Terwilliger]

122. he never was a Green

running as an independent? I don't know

I'll say now, and so that there will be some record of it...he's not running to win

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

116. Good! Now I'll have a real choice. Green or Nader.

Now that the Democrats have abandoned the left yet again.

[mzmolly]

135. "The Democrats had a choice, and they chose NOT to support a candidate...

that would effect change..."

That will be one of Mr Naders main platform points, you can count on it.

[tobius]

117. nader/kucinich 2004?

mckinney for secretary of peace

[thelocalkgb]

118. Buckle your seatbelts

How many years has this guy run?

[goclark]

121. Why Is He Running?

Is it for fame? - Let's make lots of hits at his website so that he will know that someone cares :)

Is it for money? That should not be an issue because Bush has paid him big time to run

Is it stupidity? Maybe but he is smart enough to know how to mess up an election before and he could do it again.

Is it a sincere belief in the Nader For President message - I don't believe it

Please tell me that Terry McA. has talked to this nut case and tried to reason with him.

He is a total loss cannon and s sicko.

[MidwestMomma]

144. 'Seatbelts'....good one!

:D

[MoonRiver]

123. There's now no question in my mind

that Nader really hates this country.

[philosophie_en_rose]

124. It's a free country, but Nader still sucks.

Anyone older than 35 and born in the US can run for President, but what the hell is Nader going to get out of this? If Nader wants to push the discourse to the Left, he could take a few pointers from Kucinich and Sharpton.

Nader can't win. The only thing that he can do is take votes from the Democratic candidate and push the party closer to Republicans.

Again, it's a free country. However, he is an arrogant fool if he runs again.

[joshcryer]

125. I hope he does.

:)

[MrSlayer]

132. What a skunk.

If he actually cared about the country he wouldn't do this. Helping Bush does not help the causes he promotes. Anyone who claims they will vote for him are fools.

[Iverson]

150. on the other hand ...

Those who vote along with Bush and the PNAC crowd are fine, fine people who care about the country because ... they had to!

(background shot of waving flag)
(music under, "God Bless America")

voice over: It's only centrist Democrats who care about the country. Everybody knows this. ...

(dissolve to: child with hand on heart, reciting the pledge)

v.o.: ... but some, like Ralph Nader (hoccch, ptoo!), can't see the wisdom of fighting Bush by giving him what he wants ...

(close up: tear in child's eye)

v.o.: ... so it's essential to discuss him and his type in terms of animals. It's just the right thing to do.

(music up and fade)

[Myra]

133. I'm sorry Nader supporters; I'm not trying to be inflammatory

But this leaves no doubt in my mind that Nader is out to help
the Republican party by splitting the opposition. Whether it
be out of the "kindness" of his little black heart, or for the
benefit of his big fat billfold, this leaves no doubt.

Look at the difference between Nader, and a man like Wesley Clark.
Clark put the good of the US (and world) above his own personal
ambition, he did not prolong his campaign beyond the point
that he felt it was viable, and he wasted no time in endorsing
a candidate so that the Dem party can move forward and get where
it needs to go. Into the White House.

God. I wish I could say what I thought of Nader.
But it'd be deleted in a heartbeat.

[Terwilliger]

143. Clark ran b/c the Clinton's told him to

Whether it
be out of the "kindness" of his little black heart, or for the
benefit of his big fat billfold, this leaves no doubt.

That's just as bad as anything a Freeper might say about Clinton or some other Democrat.

[Iverson]

146. you forgot an essential thing

Normal rules of civility are suspended for Nader. His humanity is in question, as is that of his supporters, past and present.

See also:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=332620&mesg_id=334175&page=

[Terwilliger]

148. Unfortunately, I see in thiis Nader hatred something very familiar...

the same attitude Republicans have toward Democrats: not only are they not to be trusted, but they're to be vilified as well

It's amazing that the Dems get upset about Republicans attacking Democrats...it's like they weren't expecting it or something :shrug:

[John_H]

162. LOL! It's good to see that Nader has at least two supporters left on DU

[Iverson]

134. Be the life of the party!

When your friends come over, show them your devastating wit and political savvy by misspelling Nader's name. :party: It's good for HOURS OF FUN-FILLED ENTERTAINMENT!!! :7 B-) :D

Here's *just a sample* of available options!

Nadir - an extremely popular choice, and WHAT A PUN!!! :evilgrin:
Nadar - you can't get better vowel economy! :9
Nadur - if you're from the midwest, every vowel is a short u anyway! :think:
nader - ooooh! leaving that name in lower case has gotta hurt! :hurts:
Naiyderr - BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! (wipes tears) :+

... and there's even more!

Just dial 1-800-SHALLOW, and you too can be a respected pundit with a flick of the wrist.

disclaimer: This is totally different than Hillary-bashing. Totally. It just is. Leave me alone.

[no name no slogan]

137. LMAO!!!

Now THIS is funny!

[GreenInNC]

136. Nader fills a role

Hey - The Democrats will need a scapegoat come November when a Kerry/Edwards tickets fails to energize the left.

[mikehiggins]

141. Right. We have a shortage of egotists in this campaign eom

[Iverson]

142. Bam! Way to slap down a lefty!

That'll teach him to deviate from the corporate centrist line.
Whoo! I can smell the smoke all the way over here!

[Terwilliger]

145. does that mean you admit most politicians are egotistical?

I mean...you don't think Bill Clinton was ANYTHING less than egotistical, do you?

[Desertrose]

152. best way to get rid of Nader...nominate Dennis Kucinich

Ralph has said he won't run if Dennis is the nominee...
if you can take him at his word that is....
:shrug:


GO DK!! :yourock:

Peace & Hope
DR

[hippiechick]

153. Now that he's running as an Independent

... (which he actually always was ) will DU'ers stop mercilessly slamming The Green Party (which Ralph never truly was a member of) ??

Thank you.


:hippie:

[Iverson]

156. What do you think?

There's an obvious answer here, and it isn't pretty.

[MurikanDemocrat]

154. Let him run. He won't get near the votes he got last time.

The Democratic voters are more united and determined than ever during this election cycle to get rid of George Bush.

I am in full agreement that reform is needed within the Democratic Party, however I do not sign to the agende that any single election, particularly this one, should primarily revolve around a major restucturing of the Democratic Party. The majority of the Party is simply never going to sign on the radical agenda of the left fringe.

Let them find out, once and for all, that the emotional extortion and blackmail games promoted by a samll fraction in the minority of the Party in order to sway the vast majority is not going to get us any closer to the reforms we need.

Change is going to have to come slow, by working withIN the party. And that doesn't stand a chance at all if Bush gets another term in office. If Bush makes the next USSC appointments as well as the other judge appointments next term, we are FUCKED for another generation, if not longer. And that’s only ONE of the MANY problems that will get worse if Bush gets another term.

[John_H]

155. Some gems from the NYT piece

"Mr. Nader tried asking visitors to his Web site, naderexplore04.com, whether he should run, but the poll was halted after a flood of negative votes..."


"Another measure of grass-roots support, or lack thereof, can be found at meetup.com...there were more than 188,000 registered supporters for Howard Dean, 45,000 for John Kerry, 23,000 for Dennis J. Kucinich, 9,000 for John Edwards and a grand total of 375 for Mr. Nader. He did however come out ahead of the Rev. Al Sharpton, who had 233."


I still say, Run, Ralph, Run! Let's get his profiteering from the corporations he vilifies, his union-busting, his megalomania, his 2000 campaign lies out in the open. And then, on election day, a fate worse than death for an egomaniac: joke fodder and political oblivion.

[genius]

157. Good reason to have Kucinich on the ticket

If Dennis is on the ticket,Nader won't get any votes.

[corporatewhore]

159. Damn!!He'll steal votes from David Cobb!!!

[NV1962]

163. Nader the RW's darling rides to Bush's rescue - again!

yawn - as if Drudge rummaging through interns wasn't enough deja-vu!

the self-important idjuts...

Oh wait. This will be a double homerun: Bush thrown out, and Nader burnt at the stakes, never to be seen again.

Two outcomes that will make November 2, 2004 a memorable day.

Sayonara sucker!

[NV1962]

164. Sorry for the double post but

I'm really looking forward to seeing Nader creamed! We should organize a big Welcome Home party for him, so he gets his hopes all up 'n sh*t. We need some position papers, quick, about the corrupt DNC, about the corrupt Gang of Four: Kucinich, Dean, Edwards & Kerry, about their records being indistinguishable from Bush, and about the need for an Honest Man in the White House! Dang, this is where the Internet could be handy to spread rumors... Ah! I know! I know! We could publish highly critical articles about Nader not being progressive enough, being a corporate sell-out owning at least two pairs of shoes...

:evilgrin:

[digno dave]

165. Thankfully he won't get half the votes he got last time

Kerry will get 80% of those votes, also.
Not that big a deal.

[NV1962]

166. Lest we forget about 2000

http://www.commondreams.org/views/062100-103.htm

"Ralph Nader's candidacy for President will bring a turnout of progressive voters who could furnish the margin of victory in enough close Congressional races for the Democrats to regain control of Congress. Nader will energize many Progressives who would otherwise sit out the election because Gore appears too much in-the-pockets of big corporate power and hesitates and hedges on critical issues of economic and social justice like world trade, campaign finance reform, and the death penalty. Nader voters are largely to the left of the political spectrum and will overwhelmingly choose the more liberal Democratic candidates for Congress.

Gore strategists see Nader as a dark cloud hanging over crucial states like California that could wash away Gore's chances by swinging some closely contested states to Bush, but Democrats wanting to control Congress as much as the White House are beginning to see a silver lining in Nader's candidacy. Clinton is raising big bucks for Democratic Congressional candidates, but many progressive Democrats blame the loss of Congress on the Administration's botching of issues like health care reform and disagree with Clinton's co-opting conservative issues like welfare reform and utilizing cynical and selfish "triangulation" politics."

One question: is this criminally stupid, catastrophically ignorant or simply malicious as usual?

C'mon Ralph, be man an run this year, too.

[Crunchy Frog]

167. Shit, shit, shit!!

Hell, I actually voted for the guy in 2000, but at this point, I wouldn't even piss on him if he was on fire.

His ego is going to help turn this country into a single party authoritarian state.

I wonder if he really is in the employment of the Republican party.

[Alinsky]

170. I voted for Nader and Gore in the 2000 election

http://votetrader.org/results/
http://www.fairvote.org/plurality/nader.htm

I don't understand how Limbaugh gets away with ranting and raving about the liberal Democrats. Before the 2000 election I always voted the Democratic Party line, because they were somewhat more tolerant of liberalism then conservatives. I even voted for Clinton twice even though he was a Republican Democrat sellout like Kerry.

But in 2000 I traded my Gore vote in a swing state with a Nader voter because in New York my New York vote would not of counted because Gore won the NYC vote by 80% or more over Bush. And I think that liberalism is the answer to solve our social injustices so in 2000 by voting for Nader I was actually for once able to vote my conscience.


Some 16,000 people traded votes in swing states in 2000 Here are the numbers.

http://votetrader.org/results/
http://www.fairvote.org/plurality/nader.htm

[Bucky]

173. Ewww! Daddy, make it go away!!

God, he looks like the SwampThing