Dean: "We're not going to win this election if...."

[Robb]

"We're not going to win this election if in October George Bush turns to the Democratic candidate and says, `You were with me on the war; you were with me on No Child Left Behind; you were with me on tax cuts. Why don't you just support me?'''

Is this what is meant by "Dean's attacking"?

[NashVegas]

1. No, That's One of His "Gaffes"

Saying things that the Dem party machinery doesn't want to hear, and doesn't want the Dem electorate to hear.

[Gin]

2. To me it reflects how I feel....so it's not a gaffe...and I support Dean

I want change in policy...not just in appearance.

[Guaranteed]

42. I think Crisco

was being sarcastic (rightfully so).

[NashVegas]

46. I Assure You, I'm Quite Sincere

"gaffes" in quotes because that's what the news media and the party hacks call them.

[eileen_d]

3. I don't see that as an attack

I see that as differentiation. Not that I buy Dean's argument.

[boxster]

4. Yep, those are the only issues in this election.

Boy, Kerry just won't have anything else to talk about.

/sarcasm

[Skip Intro]

8. Maybe he'll talk about why he STILL supports the illegal invasion of Iraq?

That would be refreshing.

[boxster]

11. Or maybe he'll talk about jobs...

Or outsourcing. Or the economy.

Or poverty.

Or health care.

Thinking George Bush would actually say that line is misguided, at best. Bush isn't going to give Kerry credit for anything, including voting for items Bush pushed.

Dean needs to find a better way of differentiating himself from Kerry or this thing is all over. Calling all of the other candidates Bush-lite and Republicans obviously isn't working.

Edit: typo

[Skip Intro]

Or maybe he'll answer the unanswered Iraq question -

Whether bush will raise the issue or not isn't the point to me. I want to know why Kerry still supports that crime against humanity - which is what it was.

This isn't all about political strategy for me, tho Kerry's CURRENT support for the invasion is a disadvantage for us politically.

If Kerry wants my vote, he can answer the question.

Why does he still support the illegal invasion of Iraq?


Why is there no answer to this question?

[For PaisAn]

20. In addition

Bush won't need to raise the issues. The problem for Kerry is that when HE raises these issues against Bush, Bush will counter that Kerry voted FOR those issues. The RNC has already started. Kerry complained about Bush's ties to special interests and the RNC created a video detailing Kerry's ties to special issues. Kerry will be an impotent candidate and so would Edwards.

[Skip Intro]

24. You're right

Impotent is the perfect discription.

Sadly, this situation would allow bush a pass from the opposition on the whole issue as well. Instead demanding accountability from him for his murderous lies, we are left to set the issue aside, as tainted by it as he is.

Tragic.

[JackRiddler]

34. Oh, how right you are...

The war, the lies for the war, education, tax cuts... trivialities. Not to mention Kerry's support for USA PATRIOT, Homeland Sec., NAFTA, WTO, and the 9/11 and BFEE coverups. Who cares? He will have SO many other issues to talk about, like:

- I got medals.
- Come on America, you know I'll do a better job keeping Iraq down.
- Whatever you want to hear, baby!

[sadiesworld]

5. Fair enough...

Except the tax cuts. It was misleading when Clark (the only candidate that I could get excited about) said it and it is misleading when Dean says it.

[retyred]

6. We're not going to win this election

if the voter doesn't vote for the one they feel is the most electable nominee. So far voters have decided Kerry is that man.

All the hand wringing over what bush/rove might throw at our Nominee doesn't mean a lot when in your mind your choice is the only candidate able to beat bush in November.



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[ShimokitaJer]

9. Actually, worrying about what Bush/Rove can throw at us...

has quite a lot to do with how electable a candidate is.

Don't tell us to vote based on public perception, then claim that public perception isn't important.

[Guaranteed]

43. They've been TOLD Kerry is the most electable.

Of course, no one has any REASON for saying that. In fact, I think Robb's point shows that Kerry is HARDLY electable, since he can't distinguish himself from Bush.

[For PaisAn]

7. Dean is right

Both Kerry & Edwards would be impotent, as our nominee, in challenging Bush and his policies. I've gotten no response in several other threads where I've posted this problem.

[lancdem]

17. I'm pretty sure Kerry didn't support the tax cuts (if I remember correctly

BTW, I agree this isn't really an attack. It's pretty mild stuff and likely won't hurt Kerry if he's the nominee, either among Dems or swing voters. Voting for IWR is not a liability among the vast majority of voters; it's Bush's conduct of the war and his administration's lies that are the problem.

[sadiesworld]

10. Gee, if only...

we had a candidate who didn't vote for these things AND has strong military credentials.

[For PaisAn]

12. Precisely

n/t

[bigtree]

13. I wonder who a candidate like that would endorse if he didn't make it?

:eyes:

[boxster]

15. Everybody likes to back a winner.

Or encourage unity.

Or both.

[For PaisAn]

19. Clark's endorsement of Kerry does not

equate to Kerry being the best candidate to challenge Bush.

[boxster]

14. Yeah, too bad the media and the electorate mainly ignored him.

x(

[sadiesworld]

16. I think that mythical candidate would understand that fear will be the

campaign theme and he would endorse another military hero.

[funky_bug]

18. I hope Bush DOES try that nonsense.

Kerry most likely isn't stupid... but let's say that he is (for the sake of argument) but now he's got a Rhodes Scholar advising him. Either way, the rebuttal goes something like this.

"Because, Mr. President, it's what you've done with my vote. I trusted that you would follow the guidelines of IWR, but you pushed ahead without meeting the requirements my fellow representatives mandated. I won't support your misuse of our trust, and I won't support your misuse of our military personnel. In good faith, we trusted you. It's the results of your actions, and the hundreds of dead soldiers that bring me to this podium today. I fought in the war you dodged. I was shot by bullets that you escaped. I stand here as a representative of the millions of disillusioned Americans that in the wake of 9/11 looked for unity and patriotism, and found instead a man willing to manipulate their trust in favor of power. You asked us to fund a war we didn't need, all the while misusing precious funds that could have gone toward NCLB, a vote we placed in good faith - a faith that again, was misused. Perhaps, you didn't realize that when you said, 'Bring it on' that the American people would take up arms, and answer that call."

[boxster]

21. Exactly.

The people claiming Kerry couldn't respond to a argument like that are just being intentionally and conveniently obtuse.

Your rebuttal is exactly what Kerry would need to do, and I have no doubt that Kerry would rise to the occasion.

[adadem]

22. I concur n/t

[HFishbine]

25. Bush's reply:

"Now Mr. Kerry, let's be straight with the 'Merikun people. You critisized Howard Dean for saying we needed to get the permission of the UN before bringing down the evil tyrant Saddam Hussien. And when we got 'im in his spidey hole, you said it was a "great day." So, you voted for the war, condemned the notion that we needed the permission of the UN to liberate Iraq, and you were eleated when we captured Saddam. You know, we have a saying down in Texas, might have it here in Atlanta too, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it protests too much."

[eileen_d]

26. This would make absolutely no sense!

I also think it's a stretch to think Bush would chide Kerry for criticizing Dean to support his argument.

[HFishbine]

He wouldn't be chiding Kerry

He would be agreeing with Kerry, or more precisely, pointing out that Kerrry agreed with him (Bush) -- that we don't need permission from the UN.

[eileen_d]

32. Why would Bush waste time in a debate agreeing with Kerry?

Whether Kerry actually did agree with Bush is a separate issue - I just don't see the benefit for Bush in pointing out any similarities between himself and his opponent.

[HFishbine]

37. Then you miss the point

The point is that Bush will have plenty (in the way of Kerry's words and actions) to counter any attempt by Kerry to draw distinctions between his position and Bush's on the war. Kerry may try to make such distinctions and Bush will squash them by pointing out the numerous ways in which Kerry agreed with Bush, which will have the added benefit for Bush of painting Kerry as a hypocrite.

In other words, bottom line, Kerry will not be able to critisize Bush on the war.

[eileen_d]

38. I guess it's time to agree to disagree. eom

[funky_bug]

27. I agree with you on one point

That Bush would most certainly pull a malapropism - it's his signature gaffe.

However, I seriously doubt Bush is going to call to the light the fact that he abused IWR. Additionally, no one is going to argue that it was a great day when we caught Sadaam... but it doesn't negate the fact that he never used "capturing evil dictators" as his premise for war. If he were to say such a thing, Kerry would need only this one-line response:

"Tell me, Mr. President, where exactly are the WMD's you promised us Sadaam had?"

[HFishbine]

28. Huh?

No one is going to argue that it was a great day when we caught Saddam? But that's exactly what Kerry said.

Additionally, by using Kerry's words and actions Bush will "prove" that he didn't abuse the IWR.

[funky_bug]

33. Maybe you misunderstood me

Are you saying you weren't happy when we caught Sadaam? It WAS a great day. Dean was correct in saying we were "no safer", but that doesn't mean I still wanted that satanic bastard un-captured. Sure, Osama the real boogy man is still running around, but hell, if I get an A in science and an F in math, it doesn't mean my A in science wasn't a great thing.

[HFishbine]

36. What I think doesn't matter

The point is Kerry said it was a great day and Bush will use that as just one more example of Kerry supporting the war and its outcomes.

[boxster]

49. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but Howard Dean said almost exactly

the same thing. He said that it was a great day for the Bush Administration.

So, what's the difference? If your complaint is that Kerry thinks it was a great day, it seems as though you should have the same problem with Dean.

[janx]

35. A recent little joke from George W. Bush:

"Then we have Senator Kerry. I think Kerry's position on the war in Iraq is politically brilliant. In New Hampshire yesterday, he stated he had voted for the war, adding that he was strongly opposed to it."

[Robb]

39. Just great.... nt

[nonconformist]

44. LOL! Thanks for the laugh!

You could be a Bush speechwriter ;)

[LandOLincoln]

40. You need to email this to Kerry and/or Clark. I think you have a fine

future as a speechwriter.

[eileen_d]

41. Hot damn! That is good!

Sorry I missed this one while scanning the thread. Kick!

:yourock:

[Guaranteed]

45. That's not going to work, because it's not REAL OPPOSITION.

Bush's response:

"We had the UN inspectors in the country, but Saddam wasn't cooperating, and he hadn't BEEN cooperating for years and years. Nothing was rushed- we went to the UN, they denied us. And we DID have a coalition of forty countries behind us. What exactly are you complaining about? You supported the war "as a last resort" , to protect our country. That's what we did. Why are you having second thoughts about protecting your country? You Massachusetts liberals need to make up your mind."

The "nuancing" ain't gonna cut it. Kerry can't use this issue. That's what happens when you compromise your integrity- you castrate yourself.

[Terwilliger]

47. OMG...I certainly hope Kerry doesn't go around saying "But I TRUSTED you!"

I mean....HOO boy :eyes:

[chyjo]

23. we won't win without Dean

Without him we are nothing. Progressives didn't even exist before Dean. You heard it here first! if Dean doesn't win the nomination Im going to beg him to come here to upstate NY where we will use up his ultra effective meetup.com army to mount a campaign to have Southern Ontario annex us. Dean or secession! thats my motto.

[Dookus]

31. good luck with that

[DU GrovelBot]

29. ## Support Democratic Underground! ##

RUN C:\GROVELBOT.EXE
 
This week is our first quarter 2004 fund drive.
Please take a moment to donate to DU. Thank you
for your support.
 
- An automated message from the DU GrovelBot

Click here to donate.

[seaglass]

30. That quote looks familiar but when I first saw it, I could

have sworn it had a different ending.

[jpgpenn]

48. No but this is a Dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=331283&mesg_id=331283