Why all the pressure this week for Dean to drop out?

[madfloridian]

All of a sudden, just before WI, with Kerry rumors still not totally over.......Dean is urged to drop out NOW?

Why? Why right now? Why is this so urgent right now?

Why this week?

[Renew Deal]

1. I think it's because Dean has been so nasty towards Kerry

that it is seen as harmful. Dean's attacks on Kerry about special interests is a lie. And compared to Bush it's a joke. But th epukes have created a TV ad based on it and Dean makes it look credible. I think the feeling is that Dean is combuistible and dangerous to others. Also, if Dean is out, there is tremendous pressure on Edwards. I think Edwards is done too. He has won one state and has no prospects of winning another. Maybe Georgia, but I doubt it.

[goddess40]

12. Maybe if Kerry hadn't attack Dean during the debates

he wouldn't be returning the favor!

I still would like to know the answer to the questions that Dean is asking about Kerry. How will Kerry answer Bush when he asks why he supported Bush with his votes but now has changed his mind?

Kerry voted for the war, no child left behind, how can he defend against his voting record?

I don't believe the rumors about Kerry, but if they are true he should drop out now. We don't need to listen to that sex crap for 4 - 8 years. Let's make the Rep.s lie about our canidate so we can refute them, not offer our throat the way clinton did because he couldn't keep his fly zipped.

[Renew Deal]

40. How did he attack Dean at the debates?

Kerry tried to talk about issues. Dean doesn't want to. Instead Dean wants to say that Kerry is a puke that has raised the most special interest money. That's just not true. BTW, are you hoping the Bimbo thing is true?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[w4rma]

83. IMHO, that is historical revisionism.

I think coersive tactics such as trickery, purges, and loyalty oaths are ill advised.

[Cheswick2.0]

96. Kerry attacked Dean . He also alowed his campaign to push poll

dirty dirty tactics. And Kerry has also taken more money from special interests than any other senator democrat or republican over the last 15 years. Thems the facts.

[HFishbine]

18. Lest we forget

That argument seems totaly dependent only on who the current fruntrunner is:

I reserve the right to attack Howard Dean from every available angle from now until the moment he secures the nomination. I reserve the right to believe he is not the best candidate for the 2004 election. I reserve the right to spurn blandishments for party unity that are thinly disguised Support-Dean-Or-Else warnings for the campaign ploy they are. I reserve the right to believe that if Dean cannot overcome what is happening now, he does not deserve the nomination, and will furthermore be slaughtered in the general election if what he faces now is too much.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=926448#928438

[eileen_d]

21. never mind

read it wrong

[Renew Deal]

41. That's from Will Pitt

not John Kerry. That has nothing to do with Dean dropping out.

[stickdog]

145. If that's the best "argument" you can muster ... (nt)

[edzontar]

192. Thanks for posting this DU classic.

I for one shall never forget, and never forgive.

[ShimokitaJer]

19. Yes, Dean's use of facts against Kerry was quite cruel

While Kerry had to resort to ads comparing Dean to Osama bin Laden and push polling suggesting Dean was an abortionist and wife beater, Dean had the temerity to point out the very real connections between Kerry and bundled big media donations, the activities of Kerry's PAC, and Kerry's record of votes on IWR and the Patriot Act.

Quite whining about lies. Kerry supporters are always willing to offer vague denials, but when I post actual figures about Kerry's donations and actual evidence of Kerry's suspicious loyalties, I get no response.

Dean is being pressured to drop out because Kerry supporters are starting to feel vulnerable. Kerry managed to stay under the media radar for a long time and that is the only way he has managed to retain his aura of electability. These things WILL come out in an election, and I'd rather they come out when we still have time to choose a candidate who doesn't have to hide their record.

[Renew Deal]

38. I didn't know Kerry was a republican?

Is that a Dean fact?

[Cheswick2.0]

97. kerry said Clark was a republican is that a fact?

Hmmmm?

[stickdog]

146. Like a Republican.

You know, like Madonna's a virgin.

[GR]

50. I Don't Think It's "Nasty " To Call Attention To A Candidate's Real Flaws.

Kerry hasn't stood up when it counted, at least lately, and now that Dean showed him what was popular, he's talking a good game. I'm not sure he'll keep it up when the pressure is off. How exactly was Kerry's vote on the Iraq resolution different from that of Orin Hatch, arch republican?

And incidentally, I think the longer Kerry is fighting the better for all dems. The "contest" factor makes the whole democratic situation more interesting to the media and keeps getting the dem message out.

Once Kerry is chosen, Bush will concentrate all of his fire on Kerry. Now he can't do that.

[Cheswick2.0]

94. Kerry has been twice as nasty

and he has taken more money from special interests than any other senator over the last 15 years. Thats just statistics Bleachers.

[polpilot]

176. If Dean leaves then Rove & Co. can take a vacation & order the

champagne! Oh the nasty truth, that damn nasty truth.

Dean '04

[boxster]

2. The Kerry rumors are over.

n/m

[madfloridian]

8. No, they are not.

Whether I believe them or not, they are not over. Do a search. I wish they were over as I hate this kind of stuff against anyone. It needs to be totally vetted, and it is still around.

I despise dirty tactics against anyone.

This begging for Dean to drop out right after WI is really wrong and it is NOT Democratic.

[boxster]

55. Ok, to clarify.

They are over for nearly everyone except the diehards here at DU. It's barely getting any notice whatsoever in the 'real' press, and while I may be wrong, I don't think it's going to get legs.

[madfloridian]

69. Then your eyes are not wide open.

As I said, I don't care. The story is still there, with an eye opener at AP if they come out with it. That said, I hate this stuff. When is it better, now or later.

[Nicholas_J]

88. Yes

If you check out the ownership of the only media sources that are focusing on the Drudge allegations, you come up with the fact that the U.S. major media has left the scandal behind, hasnt even touched it, and the majority of the international media that is reporting an rehashing this unproven scandal is all owned by the same right wing sources that helped Bush get into office in 2000. Largely it was Ruport Murdoch, and Fox News analysts who reported a Bush win hours before the polls closed that kept many democrats home, deciding that it was not worth while to go out and vote, since Bush was already being reported as the winner. Now, it is largely Murdoch owned media that has been shoring up Drudge's report and allegations. Another right wing attempt to keep the Democratic Party selection in flux

[stickdog]

147. It won't get any legs BEFORE Wisconsin.

Which is the point of the pressure on Dean, right?

[madfloridian]

148. Aha!

;-)

[Dookus]

3. I'm not seeing a lot of people urging him to drop out today....

but rather, a lot are saying that he should keep his prior word to drop out of he does poorly in Wisconsin. According to all the polls, he will be trounced there, too. At that point he should drop out.

We need to turn this race into a battle against George Bush pretty soon.

[madfloridian]

13. See, that is what I mean.

So are they pressuring Edwards to drop out? And Kucinich? and Sharpton? Why Dean so much this week.

You say we all need to fall behind a candidate? Yet most have had no say at all.

[Dookus]

42. I said here weeks ago that Sharpton and Kucinich should drop out...

I didn't mention Edwards here because your thread is about Dean. But Edwards should drop out, too, if he doesn't do well this week.

For consistency's sake, I also suggested that MY guy (Clark) should drop out if he didn't pick up anything decent last week.

[Cheswick2.0]

98. that really isn't up to you dookus and besides he never promised that

he would drop out. You can have your own opinion, but facts are facts.

[Skip Intro]

4. because his angry, desperate comments are bringing the party down

or something like that -

Anyway, Kerry's inevitable, all the polls say so, so why even bother with that pesky voting stuff.

We've had the media spotlight long enough, let's let bushco. have some airtime now.

/sarcasm

[SheilaT]

5. So that the coronation

of Kerry can proceed smoothly?

Dean is the only reason Kerry has a viable candidacy, and Dean is the reason so many Democrats are worked up about this year's presidential campaign.

As a Dean supporter, I'm going to find it very, very hard to bite the bullet and vote for Kerry in November, and since I live in Kansas I may not bother.

On the bright side, we finally have a Democrat in this state running against Senator Sam Brownback -- hooray! And I plan to volunteer for that campaign. Two years ago Pat Roberts ran unopposed, which was utterly disgraceful, in my opinion.

[funky_bug]

6. Like it or not (and I don't)

Clark set the stage for this. He was still much more viable than any other candidate but Edwards (viable in terms of polls and votes to date.) When a strong candidate drops out, while several with less "favoribility" stay in, the pressure is going to mount.

I for one, don't want Dean to drop out, and I will not join in on the pressure for him to do so. He still has a large number of delegates, and therefor, this thing AINT over.

Hang tough. We Clark supporters took quite a bit from some Edwards supporters who urged us to get out of the way so that they could have a shot at Kerry. I guess they didn't count on Clark endorsing Kerry, and perhaps now, the pressure is coming from the same camp, who assume you will run to Edwards. I don't forsee Dean giving up. I hope he stays in it until the convention because his passion for this party is a must if we're going to keep the party on-topic.

Take it with a grain of salt. There are vultures all around us. They don't want Dean to go... they want your vote. Clark is endorsing Kerry, but Clark is still getting my vote, unless I think it can go to one of the others floundering at the bottom of this cess pool we call the primaries.

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Because He Only Hurts His Own Reputation

He is already running the risk of being seen as a humorous footnote, rather than the innovative campaigner he has been. Rather than being known for opening new ways of engaging activists, he risks going down in history as the guy who didn't know how to lose gracefully.

[madfloridian]

You are wrong.

That is just Democratic spin that he will hurt himself. That, as Dean would say, is just "silly."

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrFunkenstein]

17. I Was Open About Dean

I didn't like him as a campaigner, or his record as a Governor, but I always gave him props for an innovative campaign and his ability to rally the troops. My record bears me out.

As for my avatar, you should probably think a little harder about irony.

[madfloridian]

81. No, you have never been open about Dean.

As for the avatar, you need to read about the force behind your avatar's campaign.....re the NYT....some Republican named Stone.

[Nicholas_J]

91. Yes you have been very opened about Dean

In fact you and I had an open dialog for a while when I was focusing my posts on articles that reported Deans actual record as Governor, you openly sugested that I focus on shoring up my own candidate rather than focusing information that drew out the differnces between Deans camapign for president, and his actual record as Governor. For the most part, you maintained the positive stance that people on DU should not point out the flaws of each democratic candidate, but only the strengths of ones own candidate. You only gave up on this approach after your own positive posts about your candidates resulted in massively negative attacks on your candidate, or even you positive posts about other candidate, by those who insisted on going into attack mode. I well remember the personal atacks I was exposed to by the supporters of one candidate, and that you were not immune from such attack, even tough for the greater part of the last year, you refused to get embroiled in such negative campaign efforts, so the people who have just made statements about you and your behavior simply doesnt know what they are talking about, or refuses to recognise the history of these events on DU.

[DrFunkenstein]

190. Thanks For The Back Up

That seems a pretty accurate version of events. I was eventually worn down, and it really bummed me. I really wish I could say that I always took the high road, but I can't and it saddens me.

It's great to hear from you again. It seems like forever ago that we were having these talks. It's hard to believe the number of times I turned a cheek to all the "Bush-lite cockroach" nastiness, but honestly I had a blast debating the IWR. There are definitely some Dean supporters that I will forever hold in the deepest respect (you all know who you are).

[Cheswick2.0]

99. really, so delegates don't matter and neither does my vote?

very democratic of you.

[stickdog]

151. Then only way Dean can HELP his campaign now is by staying in

all the way to the convention.

[rucky]

9. The DNC wants his mailing list

n/t

[SheilaT]

10. Here's another thought.

If Kerry is the only one left standing in another week or two, what kind of a turnout will there be for the remaining primaries and caucuses?

Really low, I bet. Even the Kerry supporters won't need to make much of an effort. But that will only prepare us for a low Democrat turnout in November. Think about it.

Too bad Clark dropped out. The more candidates staying in longer assure a higher turnout all along the way, and perhaps those riled-up voters would also turn out in great numbers in November.

[janx]

14. I hadn't even considered that, but you're right.

People don't much like to see democracy hijacked.

My state isn't due to vote for the next TWO MONTHS. And already there are party officials calling for the candidate I support to drop out.

What percentage of the states *have* voted, anyway?

[Skip Intro]

16. Plus - why would the media cover those primaries

They wouldn't. Major opportunity lost.

Our message muted, rove events rule the airwaves again.

This "hurry up and drop out" stuff is insane.

[BuelahWitch]

73. What Kerry supporters?

I don't personally know any except for the ones who claim they are on DU. I've met Dean (of course), Clark, Kucinich and even Edwars supporters. Seems all this Kerry support is lemminglike...

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skip Intro]

24. Oh brother -

Dean wouldn't play paddy-cake with Kerry, so off with his head?

An effective reponse to Dean's critcisms of Kerry might be for Kerry to address and refute, if able, those criticisms, instead of trying to silence the one who dared question.

For example, why does Kerry still support the invasion of Iraq? The problem doesn't lie with the question or the questioner, but with the lack of a clear answer from the questioned.

Surely the issues matter. Surely something deeper than ABB defines our party.


Just a thought.

[The Magistrate]

34. Nonsense, Sir

The fire of all Democratic candidates should be aimed at the criminals of the '00 Coup; the point of contention among them should be which can attack these reptiles most effectively. That is the point of the exercise, Sir, at least among professionals who understand there is no substitute for actually defeating the enemy, and that nothing can be accomplished without this first essential being achieved.

Gov. Dean's attacks on Sen. Kerry boil down to the following: a deceptive and tortured use of numbers concerning campaign contributions, disowned by the organization from which those figures were arbitrarily extracted, and that in fact demonstrates nothing but Mr. Twain's maxim concerning lies, damned lies, and statistics; a self-serving allegation, without a shred of evidence behind it, that Sen. Kerry is behind advertisements put up against Gov. Dean by a Republican front group some weeks ago; and the hollow assertion that although the rank and file of the Democratic Party has rejected Gov. Dean by a proportion of four to one, still somehow Sen. Kerry is not enough of a Democrat to win election in the fall.

None of this is of any use, not even to Gov. Dean.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[chocolateeater]

68. So when Dean was the front runner and

the fire of all the other Candidates was aimed at him instead of Bush, was that all right?

[Skip Intro]

79. More blather - less substance

As if we hurt ourselves by defining ourselves.

I've had enough ambiguities from the other party. I look for something more from my own.

Let's allow ourselves to stand for something a litte more substantive than just ABB. We are capable of such, no?

[The Magistrate]

113. When You Are Tired Of Ambiguities, Sir, You Are Tired Of Life

The first need is to evict the enemy from office; nothing whatever can possibly be done before this is achieved.

Persons who claim to be holding out for defining differences would do well to begin by ceasing to claim damned near all Democratic Party office-holders might as well be Republicans, for all the "real" difference that they can see. You will note that the enemy does not much do this: the enemy's practice is to exaggerate even the most minor shades of difference, until their followers are convinced the difference between one and the other is that between pure good and absolute evil. That is how elections are won, Sir. It is not pretty, but it works....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[stickdog]

158. The enemy hates us because they hate freedom. And you are either for us

or against us!

[Skip Intro]

187. "Where do you stand?" demands a "Here's where I stand!" answer -

- for me at least.

Or is that too much to ask of the one who asks to represent me?

Is there any thing we shouldn't do in order to evict the squatter? Anything? Should we imitate him, support his policies and dwell in murky language? Just like....

Is that the best we can do? Is that all we can offer?

Would you have us win at all costs? Even at the cost of our party's soul?

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[molly]

26. By golly - you are good!

concise and to the point.

[madfloridian]

27. Dean started the tirades against Bush while others just did nothing.

Now there is some truth for you.

Why must he drop out now? Why this week?

[drfemoe]

104. EXACTLY

Does it occur to anyone that Kerry is being criticized for voting WITH BUSH? Aim at the 00 Coup indeed.

Dean is the only one who made a peep a year ago against the thuggery in DC. It makes one wonder why his own Party is so anxious to have him silenced.

[PurityOfEssence]

29. Perhaps emotive appeals are more in order

Ahoy there, old chum! Glad to hear your voice.

Unfortunately, using rationality and calm causality is a fruitless approach when dealing with many of those who support this man.

Imagine how I feel, having been a die-hard Edwards supporter for three years now. First, Clark has to be called to greatness and brought in on the sedan chair of Imperial ascendancy, sucking up media time and actively competing against my guy. When he fizzled because of mistakes, poor public performances, questionable past stances, he still soldiered on. He barely ekes out a less than half of a percent third and then a less than half of a percent victory against my guy, and not realizing that he should exit, hangs on and goes into extreme prevarication philippics mode, splitting the vote. Now Dean hangs on to further split the non-Kerry vote, thus making things almost impossible for the person who is easily the most electable.

Dean is considered righteously pure by many of his supporters, and nothing he does will sway them; theirs is a religious devotion, which brooks no dissent and accepts no contrary evidence. Failure is attributed to duplicity on the part of his enemies, rather than accumulate mistakes on his own. There is no reasoning.

I suggest raw emotion.

John Kerry is not a Republican; to say that he is is to call your sanity and wisdom into question. He's hurting the party now, he's unable to win and just makes him look silly now. For his own sake--although I think he's already destroyed his future credibility--he needs to drop and regroup. He could help win back Congress and redeem himself. He could lead some kind of crusade of his own choosing. Whatever. Whip 'em up with the fervor of being the noble party lightning rod.

Then again, maybe it's all just pointless.

I don't think it serves anybody's purpose to let the myth persist that he was the truest and most noble, but was deliberately incinerated by a hostile press and stodgy establishment. He blew it on his own, and went down still holding on to the wheel.

[The Magistrate]

36. Well Said, My Friend

My nature is what it is, and a bloodless old reptile like myself can only say with Luther in that regard: "God help me, I can do no other!"

You have my sympathy in regard to the lot of your chosen candidate: Sen. Edwards is an excellent fellow, and has conducted himself splendidly during this campaign. His "two Americas" line is an excellent one, that deserves wide echo; it has the ring of truth about it to every ear that hears it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Edwards4President]

39. Perfectly said!

[madfloridian]

43. I see your words.

They don't mean that much. The party's record this year on the Iraq war (invasion), NCLB (I was a teacher), Medicare bill (disastrous), deficit (no one addressed it until Dean).....and I could go on.

Magistrate, your words are magnificent and eloquent, but they are rather hollow to me right now.


Your Quote:"his doing this is reprehensible to the point of treason"

I really love that word treason directed toward Howard Dean.

[The Magistrate]

45. If, Ma'am

Gov. Dean sets himself to damage the prospects of the Party by his conduct, as he seems just now to be doing, he commits treason to the Party; if his actions serve to assist the criminals of the '00 Coup to retain themselves in usurped office this fall, he commits treason to the people and the country.

This is not about the record of the Democratic caucus in Washington, Ma'am. It is about breaking from office the worst elements of reaction in our polity. Without that done, none of the things we both desire can possibly be achieved.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[madfloridian]

47. Treason and Howard Dean do not belong in the same sentence.

n/t

[The Magistrate]

48. If His Actions Today, Ma'am

Cause harm to the prospects of the party in November, those words do indeed belong together.

It pains me to cause you any distress, but the matter has reached a pitch requiring plain speaking. There is emanating from certain quarters just now a nihilistic whiff of Gotterdammerung, that must be rebuked....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[madfloridian]

49. Definitions of treason.

I don't think it extends to trying to change a party that has let us down.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/treason

I really don't. It is ok if you offend me and cause me distress.
I am just sad you are calling Howard Dean treasonous. That is just sad.

[madfloridian]

57. Magistrate, a question for you.

If Dean's criticisms are considered "treason", then are those of us who are not satisfied with the rush to coronate and deprive us of our primary vote.....are we treasonous as well in your mind?

You are not answering, and I think it is important to know.

[The Magistrate]

110. The Matter Is Simple, Ma'am

If Gov. Dean continues his campaign, and devotes his campaign activities to slurring other Democratic candidates who have a real prospect of getting the Party's nomination, he is giving aid and comfort to the other side.

Persons who put about distortions and smears aimed at a Democratic candidate with every prospect of being the Party's nominee are also doing the work of the right, whether they are willing to admit this or not, or whether they claim to do so from commitment to left principles or not.

Persons who declare that they will, if the Party does not nominate who they prefer, "take their vote and go home!" will be, should they actually do that, similarly lending material assistance to the criminals of the '00 Coup, by acting in a manner that will increase the chance those miscreants will prevail at the polls in November, and it does not matter whether they are willing to acknowledge that is the effect of their actions, or whether they insist such an action will spring from a zealous commitment to left principles. Its effect will be to strengthen the hand of the worst elements of reaction in our polity.

There has been sufficient imflammatory rhetoric from many supporters of Gov. Dean in this forum that there is little room for his advocates to complain of plain talk in this matter: the stock in trade of the fiercer advocates for Gov. Dean has been for months that his opponents are really Republicans, that supporters of his opponents are plants and disruptors, and such like excesses.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[madfloridian]

114. There is nothing more to say then.

Your quote..."If Gov. Dean continues his campaign, and devotes his campaign activities to slurring other Democratic candidates who have a real prospect of getting the Party's nomination, he is giving aid and comfort to the other side....."

There really isn't more to be said then. Not one soul in this party, with the exception of Kucinich, was saying anything at all. I have been quite activist against the war, the Medicare bill, NCLB, and I heard and read the useless answers from our congress folk.

One candidate's office, when I asked them how they felt about the shock and awe bombing on Iraq, and all the deaths......I was told they voted for the war but did not approve of the killing. Well, isn't that special?

My view is that Dean forced their hand, they took his message, and they said "go away, bad guy." And once he and we go away, they will all revert to form.

God bless America. You, too, Magistrate. You go get those Bush Bastards.

[Old and In the Way]

118. Let's postulate that it was Dean who had caught on instead of Kerry.

Let's further say that the record of wins/margins were exactly opposite.

I suspect every Dean supporter would use the same words of "treason" against Kerry with absolutely no hang-up in the application.

And you'd be very well right in making that case, IMHO.

[madfloridian]

125. Why would I use the word treason against Kerry?

Your argument makes no sense.

I was a Democrat long before I was Dean supporter. I was an American even before that.

Do you have any idea what it has felt like the last year to be called unpatriotic by my church and treasonous by a forum meant for Democrats?

[Old and In the Way]

129. To kneecap the frontrunner for no other reason than to squeeze

an additional 1-2% of votes?

I, too, am a long term Democrat and I contributed to Dean last summer when he was sharpening the rhetoric against Bush.

My point is, if the tables were turned and Kerry was saying Dean was a Republican, I can only imagine the vitriol that would be coming from the Dean posters here. The word Treason would not be avoided...and I'd be agreeing with that setiment if Dean had the Democratic mandate that Kerry enjoys.

[stickdog]

155. Can't you understand that Dean -- like many Democrats -- sincerely

believes that Kerry is the WORST candidate in the entire field and has from the start?

[The Magistrate]

167. You May Feel What You Please, Mr. Dog

A great many of us felt from the beginning that Gov. Dean was the worst of the viable candidates in the field. The matter is being put to the vote of the rank and file members of the Party, and it seems that the number of these who would agree with you that Sen. Kerry is the worst possible candidate is not so very large after all, and that the number who would agree both with that, and with the proposition that Gov. Dean is the best candidate, is only a very small proportion of the voting rank and file of the Party. You have been out-voted, Sir, decisively.

The only question is, what do you intend to do about it? Do you intend to do damage to a figure you claim already to be a weak candidate, and thus make the enemy's job easier? Do you intend to with-hold support from the Party's candidate in the fall, thus strengthening the hand of the enemy at the final poll? Or will you join in Popular Front against the worst elements of reaction in our polity, and assist in evicting the criminals of the '00 Coup from office? The choice, Sir is yours to make for yourself, but what you cannot do in making it is ignore the likely consequences of a choice to follow the splinter course of a wrecker for the people and the country. If your choice is to reject the Party's nominee, it does not matter one whit how loud or often you protest the doing is a sign of commitment to left ideals and values: you will in fact be acting as a tool of reaction, and ought to manfully own up to the name.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[stickdog]

172. How many big states that voted for Gore in 2000 have even had primaries?

The compressed calendar has ensured that the winner of Iowa and NH would have a HUGE advantage on the rest of the field.

Meanwhile, the "front-runner" media assassination of Dean has been followed by the front-runner media coronation of Kerry.

When Kerry has 50% of the delegates, I'll reluctantly jump upon his band(aid)wagon. Until then, it would be treasonous of me to support the candidate whom I sincerely estimate to be the weakest in the entire field, now wouldn't it?

[The Magistrate]

183. Then Clearly We Both Know, Mr. Dog

The great preponderance of rank and file voters of the Democratic Party in those states will cast their ballots for Sen. Kerry, and only a trifling fraction of them will cast their votes for Gov. Dean. A campaign of attempted character assassination by Gov. Dean will not alter this fact; if anything, it will only reduce the already trifling portion of the vote he receives. The only thing such a course by Gov. Dean will accomplish is to lend some credence to Republican attacks on the Party's nominee in the general election campaign.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[drfemoe]

130. Could we go on to say

that every vote cast in America is "treason"?

Treason: A betrayal of trust or confidence.

To cast a vote at all requires one to determine where to place their trust and confidence, thereby rejecting the possibility of pledging trust to any other.

Perhaps we should vote on the status of our trust and confidence in our guaranteed right to vote for representation.
Does that part of the constitution get a yes or a no vote?

[stickdog]

154. We don't have to fucking postulate. Dean DID catch on instead of

Kerry. And what happened to the attacks against Dean at that point?

[The Magistrate]

184. Nonsense, Mr. Dog

Gov. Dean "caught on" only during the "phoney war" period of the campaign, before there was a single vote cast. His position at this time was merest vapor, and was revealed as such the moment real voters cast real ballots.

Sen. Kerry's current status has been earned by real votes cast by real rank and file voters of the Democratic Party.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[chocolateeater]

116. So was it all right for some of the other

candidates to do the same thing to Dean when he was the front runner and had a real prospect of getting the Party's nomination?

[Cheswick2.0]

124. kerry called Clark a republican

Double standard?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

142. Actually, Kerry Never Called Clark a Republican

He had his surrogates do it. Which did piss me off, but hey, that's politics for you.

DTH

[stickdog]

153. You are either with the Magistrate or you are against him!

Yes, it's quite simple, in several senses of the word.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

156. I'd Much Rather Be With The Magistrate

Not only because he's a capital, sensible fellow, but also because he has an efficient tendency to completely and utterly demolish the arguments which are occasionally marshalled weakly against him and his positions.

DTH

[stickdog]

159. Yes, he's very Buckley-esque. (nt)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

161. And Which Buckley Would That Be? (eom)

DTH

[stickdog]

162. Tim, perhaps?

http://www.alwaysontherun.net/tim.htm#f1

[The Magistrate]

169. Mr. Dog, My Friend

Is attempting to infer me to be a doppelganger of William Buckley, an old high Tory of formidable erudition with a most benighted political view leavened only slightly by a libertarian streak that leads him to propose de-criminalization of drugs.

It is, of course, well known that anyone who disagrees with the "lefter than thou" in this forum is an undercover reactionary operative. It is much easier to raise such a hue and cry than it is to examine whether or not the headlong and headstrong courses they urge be adopted would actually succeed, instead of having the practical effect of strengthening even further the grip on office of the worst elements of reaction in our polity.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[stickdog]

173. Tim & Jeff both died far too young for you to accord Billy this sort of

undeserved respect.

[edzontar]

194. I would say that tossing about words like "treason" ....

To refer to one of our candidates and his supporters is, if not Buckley-esque, surely McCarthy-esque in its teminology and rhetorical strategy.

Of course, in the last days, I have grown accustomed to reading threads from other colleagues calling for us to be purged from the party, and from DU, I presume.

I guess this really DOES prove that the party is "more unified than ever."

[goobergunch]

201. Well, it's going to be unified soon....

because any dissenters from milquetoast incrementalism will be hurled out.

[Walt Starr]

191. All of the flowery prose in the world

does nothing to make rhetoric less rhetorical.

[edzontar]

193. I cannot believe I am reading these words from someone

Whose contributions I am accustomed to reading with respect, if not agreement.

So, it is "treason" to remain in a race and criticize a flawed candidate after hius agents have CRUCIFIED you through dirty tricks tactics and misrepresentations at every step of the game?

I am disappointed, to put it mildly.

[BuelahWitch]

76. "The Party" committed treason by running so many Bush-liters

Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt were falling all over themselves trying to convince voters which of them was the most like GW Bush last spring. Why would Democrats WANT a candidate like Bush? Dean gave The Party a well needed kick in the ass by being the anti-Bush candidate early on.

[The Magistrate]

112. Nonsense, Ma'am

None of the persons you named, most particularly Sen. Kerry, and not even Sen. Lieberman, spent a moment's energy trying to convince anyone they were interchangeable with the criminals of the '00 Coup. A statement like that is a mere radical's hyperbole, useful, perhaps, for shouting up at a rally, but meaningless as a description of real events.

The fact is that Gov. Dean has received a very small proportion of the votes cast by the rank and file of the Democratic Party in this primary season. It is therefore piffle to speak of him and his supporters as the "real" Democratic Party; if that were the case, he would have gotten, and they would have cast, a preponderance of the votes. They did not. That is democracy, and this is the voice of the "real" Democratic Party.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cheswick2.0]

119. the fact is that dean has received more of the votes than anyone but Kerry

do you think we should just stop the primaries now before anyone else gets to vote?

[The Magistrate]

171. Capital Spin, Sir, But Of No Earthly Consequence Whatever

It is a crowded field still, and roughly four in five of the persons who have cast votes, whether in primary or in caucus, have voted against Gov. Dean.

It is natural to seek comfort in the fact that only about a quarter of the votes are yet cast and counted, but these proportions are not much going to change as the process continues.

The question is not simply, should Gov. Dean continue to campaign; it is, rather, should Gov. Dean continue his campaign by adopting the lines of smear and distortion the enemy can be expected to use against his choief rival in the general election campaign? He should not do this, and if he continues to do this, his campaign serves no interest but ths of the enemy, and ought therefore to be brought to a speedy halt.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[BuelahWitch]

140. Nonsense sir!

Lieberman at least stated it in one of the first "debates." Please don't try to revise history.

[stickdog]

160. No, they did not -- because they were too busy attacking Dean for

NOT AGREEING with Bush enough.

Now then, which of these two types of attacks compromises Democratic chances against Bush more and why?

[Old and In the Way]

123. Since when does "The party" have any say on who decides to

run for the nomination? As far as I know, you only need to be a Democrat to run. Whatever "The Party" thinks or feels, you are being disingenuous in assigning blame to "The Party".

Democrats don't do that. They run a diverse spectrum of candidates from right to left. You must be thinking about the top down selection process that the RNC uses. And the Republicans end of crowning a oil-toady moron like Bush as their nominee.

Face it, Kerry's positions are quite clearly in the middle of the field. Politically, mainstream-to-slightly left in the Party. But the mainstream Democrats are not voting on a strict matrix of policy positions. If they were, Kucinich would be winning in a landslide. They are voting for a person who exemplifies the characteristics and values that they want in their nominee. That's why he'll be our nominee.

[Andromeda]

188. Since the primaries are structured

to leave only one man standing it's offensive to hear you call Dean treasonous since he is only taking part in a time-honored process where candidates willingly set themselves up as targets and happily return the favors when opportunities arise. It's called democracy in action.

Kerry may appear to be the likely winner but it is not inevitable since unforseen factors could change the outcome.

The point is that this is the way it's supposed to be and for you and others to just tell everyone else to go away because Kerry is the annointed one is downright unamerican in my opinion. Dean adds a needed dimension to these primaries and even though it doesn't appear that he'll win it makes the race more interesting, challenging and democratic.

Dean doesn't have the power to sabatoge the nomination by destroying Kerry---he can only make it more uncomfortable for Kerry at the very most and that's not likely to make any difference to voters who have made their minds up already.

We all want the Bush team to get the old heave ho and I think you give Dean way to much credit for being Kerry's major thorn-in-the-side. If Kerry falters it will be of his own doing. Political opposition just keeps Kerry honest, so to speak, and keeps him on his toes. Dean's not thwarting the democratic process, sir, he is aiding it and if I may be so bold I feel that your indiscriminate use of the word "treason" is inconsiderate and disproportionate and does nothing to further thoughtful discussion.

[HFishbine]

46. "reprehensible to the point of treason"

And some people wonder why we don't all fall in line.

[w4rma]

75. With all due respect, The Magistrate, if you weren't saying this

about Kerry and Gephardt when Dean was in Kerry's current position and Kerry and Gephardt had their guns pointed at Dean instead of Bush, then you have no credible grounds to say this now, convincingly to the folks you are trying to convince.

[Cheswick2.0]

107. Not that simple and not true Sir

They have all aimed at Dean for months. Karma's a bitch.

[The Magistrate]

111. Today, My Friend, Is Not the Cabinet Of Yesterdays

Gov. Dean has no realistic prospect of success today. His distortions and slurs can only serve a wrecker's interests as matters stand now.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Cheswick2.0]

121. I live in Pa and I haven't voted yet.... perhaps you have forgotten this

is still America?

[goobergunch]

149. The Largest States Haven't Voted Yet, Sir

California (370 pledged delegates), New York (236 pledged delegates), Texas (195 pledged delegates), Florida (177 pledged delegates), Illinois (156 pledged delegates), and Pennsylvania (151 pledged delegates) have not cast their ballots at this time. I am sure an honorable man such as yourself would not wish to deprive the citizens of the six largest states in our Union the right to support the candidate of their choice for President in the primary process.

[The Magistrate]

174. Their Votes, Sir, Will Mirror Those Already Cast

You seem to imagine there is some undetected ground-swell of support for Gov. Dean, or resistance to Sen. Kerry, remaining among rank and file Democrats in those jurisdictions. There is no such support or resistance in existence. Sober reflection, rather than consultation with the tricksters' firm of Hope and Desire, would disclose this to you in a moment's consideration. When those states hold their primaries, rank and file Democrats will cast the preponderance of their votes for Sen. Kerry; you may depend upon it, Sir.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[goobergunch]

179. So you can read the minds of everyone in those states?

Or are you just assuming that everyone in those states will mindlessly follow the lead of smaller states that have already voted? This would reflect poorly on our system of "democracy" in that nation.

Nothing in the future is definite.

[The Magistrate]

182. Care For A Friendly Wager, Sir?

The mark of understanding a complex system is the capability to predict with some accuracy the result of its workings in advance. This is as true at cards or the race-track as it is in electoral politics.

It is not me who has a poor opinion of "democracy," or of the rank and file voters of the Democratic Party, Sir. It is persons who cling to the belief that voters who disagree with them are mindless sheep, rather than thinking persons who have drawn conclusions and hold opinions different from their own, who have a poor opinion of democracy and of the rank and file voters of the Party. Persons who hold to that belief doom themselves to impotence in electoral politics, Mr. Punch. Few people think they are sheep, and they tend to reject with some anger people who claim to their face that they are.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jax]

136. Right now

I am giving you a standing ovation for this post. Thank you. I am feeling very much the same way right now.

Jax

[stickdog]

150. How in the hell is Dean hurting Dems by accurately pointing out how much

Kerry AGREED with Bush?

How does this compare to when Kerry attacked Dean for NOT AGREEING with Bush enough?

You appear to have a very SELECTIVE idea of which attacks are allowable and which are not.

[goddess40]

20. Dean needs to stay in to keep the media focused on the Dems

When the battle for the Dem primary is over the media will shift its attention to defeating that person. It is better to keep them diverted for as long as possible.

Besides, why put the money into these primary's if the choice is made in Iowa. Maybe ballots shouldn't be counted until after all the primarys are held? I'm more than a little miffed that I was 'ordered' to vote for Kerry, it smacks of right wingism to me.

Let the primaries do there job, and let all the votes count, remember what happens when all the votes aren't counted.

[Kahuna]

64. The media only reports on him for comic relief...

To mock him and make him ridiculous before the country and the world. Why can't you see that? He has become a caricature of himself.

I personally do not care how long he stays in the race. I just think it's very sad that he is making a mockery of himself.

[janx]

67. He is not making a mockery of himself--the media are doing

that.

[madfloridian]

70. It would be more *comfortable* if he got out.

That is what you are saying.

[Cheswick2.0]

102. maybe so.....but he still does better than Clark in money and delegates

go figure :shrug:

[MurikanDemocrat]

127. No, on the contrary. Dean's focus on attacking Dems needs to stop

and the focus needs to return to attacking Bush.

[West Coast Democrat]

22. No offense to Dean supporters, but......

Clark has dropped out because he felt he had no realistic prospects to win any more states...so why is it that Dean should remain in the race at this point?

[molly]

28. His great big unrealistic ego?

[Cheswick2.0]

105. what kind of ego does a man have to have to get botox at 60?

hmmmm ,,,,,, yup I'll still take Dean. I mean as long as we are talking personality here. :7

[madfloridian]

33. Why the pressure this week?

That is my question.

[West Coast Democrat]

86. Because he had said he would drop out if he lost Wisconsin

and he is being urged to stick to that.

[madfloridian]

87. Why? His supporters asked him to stay on after.

He said that publicly. Why must he drop out this week? He said before he would go on. It is the media and the party urging him to drop out.

Why must it be this week? Why so urgent?

[West Coast Democrat]

95. We Clark supporters asked him to stay in also

....but losing candidates begin to run low on money. I had wanted Clark to stay in until Super Tuesday.

I really don't think there's any conspiracy here. There are some who think Dean may be going too negative on the frontrunner who's pretty much a shoe-in.

[madfloridian]

106. Only a shoo-in if the party forces everyone else out.

See my way of thinking?

[West Coast Democrat]

109. Right now it looks like Edwards is doing better than Dean

Also, it's no secret that we're trying to project party unity this time around.

It's too bad that Dean hasn't performed better in some key states, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[madfloridian]

137. What is the % of Democratic voters who have decided?

Why not let others have a voice? Why must it be over so quickly?

[goobergunch]

157. Less than a quarter of delegates have been apportioned

I heard on NPR that only 22% will have been apportioned after Wisconsin.

[Old and In the Way]

126. He can stay in as long as he wants, that is certainly his prerogative.

But I don't think he serves the Party well in trying to ruin Kerry's reputation in the process. As long as Dean makes the case why we should elect him and save his venom for Bush, he can ride it out all the way to the convention as far as I'm concerned.

[Cheswick2.0]

103. because he has more delegates money and prospects than Clark?

because Kerry is a horror story and we are hoping not to have a 49 state loss to bush in November. No offense to you of course.

[Anwen]

200. Last time I checked,

Dean had the second highest amount of delegates.

Why should he drop out?

[CalebHayes]

23. Because, he is done. He has no chance. It is OVER for Dean.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[feistydem]

25. Because he is losing...

Because as the anticipated frontrunner 4 months ago he's now in a distant third position. That is not the same as Edwards and Clark who came up from behind. Dean is losing steam fast except in his ability to raise more money out of his supporters.

Because he is destructive to the ultimate goal of defeating GWB in his smear rhetoric (BTW, he was also the first to go on the attack, not Kerry, by referring to the Dem Senate votes for the Iraq war). It's easy to talk tough when you don't actually have to cast a vote that your credibility hangs upon. Sharpton and Kucinich are not attacking their opponents the way Dean is. And Edwards is in 2nd place, why should he drop out?

Because he isn't even pulling 15% in the voter averages (of the 14 contests, thus far, of which he has not won a single one).

Because he said in an e-mail fundraising letter to his supporters that if he lost in Wisconsin (which the polls say he will) he's out of the race.

Because after Wisconsin, if he loses (when he couldn't win in the ultra-progressive, Seattle-dominated, Washington State where he had a huge following --even Kucinich did well there) he's doing nothing more than stirring up trouble. And what is the point of that, exactly?

I don't think it's urgent before Wisconsin. But I think if he loses there too and remains in the race, he is not being gracious or wise about his political future.

[madfloridian]

31. Why this week?

Why all the pressure just *before* the WI primary? Why now? Why are they pressuring him just now.

[feistydem]

37. Who's pressuring him?

Let me first write that I understand why you are a "mad floridian." I'd be mad too if Jebby was my governor, Katherine Harris my rep. and my state the place of a political coup.

I haven't read anything about Dean being pressured this week, unless you are referring to the likes of Chris Matthews and the White House press corps, who seem to be in love with GWB.

I think it's fair for him to stay in even through the end of March's primaries/Caucuses. But then if he's still not winning, the writing appears to be on the wall.

No doubt Kerry is not the guy Dean supporters would like to see as the nominee. But sincerely, shouldn't the focus soon become about getting Bush and President Cheney out of the White House?

Dean supporters couldn't possibly think those two sharks are better than Kerry --or any Dem for that matter (maybe even any trained chimp). Could you?

[MidwestMomma]

56. Because if the media repeats enough times before the primary

that your candidate should drop out then if effects the outcome of the primary. Because some voters who hear repeatedly that a candidate 'should' drop out interpret that as they 'will' drop out and don't want to waste their vote. In the week before the TN/VA primaries, the pundits were calling for Clark to drop out and see how that worked out. Not saying this is why Clark did not do well in those primaries but it certainly can't help your candidacy for potential voters to hear over and over that your done. Just my 2 cents...

[madfloridian]

59. Well said, they are affecting the outcome by doing that.

They know exactly what they are doing.

My vote did not count in 2000. I don't think my vote will count this year either.

[janx]

63. Mine won't. It was supposed to have happened in April. n/t

[Tinoire]

122. And a very good 2 cents that was! n/t

[mountainvue]

78. I believe

you have an answer to your own question. Please share it with us.

[Edwards4President]

32. Is that all you got? :-)

[Kahuna]

65. Because even Al Sharpton is doing better?

How's that for a reason? :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

101. really kahuna? How do you figure that?

Fact is my candidate did better than yours and yours had to drop out from lack of delegates money and support.

[goobergunch]

144. The delegate count disagrees with you (n/t)

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Duder]

35. My theory...

After McGovern, the primaries were front loaded to prevent an insurgent candidate from winning the nomination. A candidate such as Kucinich would never have a chance because he can be buried by money early on and never build momentum. Kerry was the presumed frontrunner at the beginning and also got the big checks to be one of the top fundraisers in the first quarter. Dean's fundraising prowess and poll numbers almost usurped the system by winning the invisible primary which would normally make Dean the nominee. Historians will look back at the 2004 Democratic primary as an aberration and perhaps might find it to be the most manipulated and possibly corrupt primary ever. Now that the status quo has been reestablished they want to bury the insurgent and keep him from rising again so that they can coast to the convention, which just coincidentally happens to be in Boston. Kucinich and Sharpton have been marginalized and are insignificant, Edwards is an acceptable alternative should Kerry collapse but Dean remains as the wild card which is why he is singled out, imo.

[janx]

44. Yes, that's pretty much what is happening.

It wasn't until yesterday that I realized how desperate it must have been for the party leaders when Dean was soaring.

So much for real democracy, eh?

[Duder]

51. So much for the Democratic Party

You don't disseminate long lasting unity like those that are propagating fear of defeat and that are demeaning the standard bearers of populous visions of hope.

But...

"Freedom's just another word..."

[madfloridian]

52. Freedom.....nothing left to lose.

You may be right, sadly.

I think to have Dean and treason used in the same sentence has just about made me see there is nothing left to lose. That happened today, in this thread.

Definitions of treason.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/treason

[Duder]

58. Traitors to Democracy

Are those that would use treason in connection with Howard Dean.
Dean has a long history of working for the Democratic Party and even recruited people to run for office as head of the NGA. He's honorably played by the rules and his only crime is to the elite and special interests that find working within the party for change to be abhorrent. There are quite a few regressives on the board that cloak their agenda with Bush is a bastard in the same way Bush plays upon popular fears of terrorism. Both lead down a far more destructive road for the future then November of 2004, imo.

[madfloridian]

60. If Dean equates to treason, then we are also. I don't like that.

Question the party, and you get declared as treasonous at a Democratic board.

[Duder]

61. You shouldn't like it, but...

The tea is in the harbor.

[janx]

108. It certainly IS! n/t

[Rose Siding]

186. A charge of Treason stands Howard Dean in good company

Josiah Bartlett
William Whipple
Matthew Thornton
John Hancock
Samual Adams
John Adams
Robert Treat Paine
Elbridge Gerry
Stephen Hopkins
William Ellery
Roger Sherman
Samuel Huntington
William Williams
Oliver Wolcott
William Floyd
Philip Livingston
Francis Lewis
Lewis Morris
Richard Stockton
John Witherspoon
Francis Hopkinson
John Hart
Abraham Clark
Robert Morris
Benjamin Rush
Benjamin Franklin
John Morton
George Clymer
James Smith
George Taylor
James Wilson
George Ross
Caesar Rodney
George Read
Thomas McKean
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton
William Hooper
Joseph Hewes
John Penn
Edward Rutledge
Thomas Heyward Jr.
Thomas Lynch Jr.
Arthur Middleton
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
George Walton

Howard Dean:toast:

Conventional wisdom has repeatedly underestimated the determination of people who seek change.

[Tinoire]

89. Spot on! Democracy Hijacked as another DUer put it!

the most manipulated and possibly corrupt primary ever

[madfloridian]

92. Right on, Tinoire.

And they dare call it treason.....how dare they do that to us.

[Tinoire]

117. They think they can intimidate us & stop the people's movement.

Treasonous old bastards choosing corporations over people & irresponsibly pursuing their empire-building rather than caring about the needs of the people.

Well, they can label us as treasonous all they want. Since when is it treason to believe in



?

When good old Democratic values were good enough?

[The Magistrate]

185. The 'People's Movement', My Friend?

Would not a people's movement be a mass phenomenon?

Not even Gov. Dean's campaign can demonstrate mass strength; indeed rather the opposite has been shown by events.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[stickdog]

163. Ding, ding, ding!

We have a winner!

[MrSlayer]

53. Because he's only hurting himself and the party now.

People are just seeing him as bitter.

[madfloridian]

54. People who have been let down by the party don't feel that way.

Medicare bill, disastrous.

Iraq invasion, disastrous.

NCLB bill, hurting public education

Huge tax cuts..being forced down to middle class in other forms

Huge deficit with bad outlook.

More.....

[madfloridian]

62. On this thread, no one replied to the treason bit but Dean supporters.

It was allowed to stand as a statement. That Dean was treasonous. A couple of his supporters have stood up and spoken out, but the rest are just letting it go.

That is more telling that anything I have ever seen here.

It is shocking.

It is the same feeling in the pit of my stomach as I had when our Southern Baptist church called us traitors for being against the war.

It is sick feeling. No one defended us against the word treason.

[slinkerwink]

71. that's because they want a quick kerry nomination

forget Dean who's telling the truth about how Kerry did us all a wrong by voting for IWR, NCLB, and the Patriot Act.

[madfloridian]

72. So, I fear I will have to assume that others agree about the treason.

Oh, that is really a serious thing to say. No one else, no other supporters of any candidate are willing to say that Dean and his supporters are not treasonous?

That is what I am seeing.

[eileen_d]

74. You're going to conclude that on the basis of a DU thread?

Fine - I'll bite. I don't think Dean or Dean supporters are treasonous. I'll take the liberty of speaking on behalf of everybody.

Anything else you need?

[eileen_d]

80. Would it help if I also apologized for causing Dean's downfall?

It was me. It was ALL my doing. Here is my job description:

ANTI-DEMOCRACY OPERATIVE II

In support of the DLC mission, ANTI-DEMOCRACY OPERATIVE II will determine the content and tone of all media coverage, create and maintain the front-loaded primary system, exercise control over the minds of all voters in the Democratic primaries and caucuses, and "other duties as assigned."

[The Magistrate]

177. Ssshhhh...Not Here, Ma'am, Only Behind The Hollow Tree!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[madfloridian]

82. Well, what is unsaid is often more powerful than the spoken word.

I thank you for your saying that we are not treasonous. The fact that I had to even ask is really a commentary, don't you think?

No, I don't need anything else. I think I pretty well understand now.

[madfloridian]

84. One person defended. Is that all?

There goes that bad tummy feeling again.

[boxster]

90. No offense, but how many supporters of other candidates do you

expect to respond?

You called it "shocking". Quite the contrary. It's pretty normal where DU is concerned.

First of all, in a thread titled, "Why all the pressure this week for Dean to drop out?", I wouldn't expect too many non-Dean supporters to even read it, much less respond, because a significant fraction of his opponents think he should have dropped out already for various reasons.

Second, the argument about "Dean" and "traitor" in the same sentence is a little silly. Of course he's not a traitor. Most people realize this, and aren't going to go out of their way to continue this argument one way or the other.

That being said, did you honestly expect non-supporters to jump right in and defend Dean? If so, your expectations are way outside what I've come to expect here. And quite outside the expectations I'd have in any political environment.

Kerry opponents weren't exactly jumping to his defense when Drudge, of all people, posted that ludicrous intern story with no documentation and no proof. Quite the contrary. Many were acting as though the story was rock solid, and he should just drop out immediately, no questions asked. That's as ludicrous as calling Dean a traitor, but not terribly surprising.

Sorry, but I think that you're looking for assistance in a situation where you're very unlikely to receive it.

[madfloridian]

93. In this thread, Dean was called treasonous.

If no one speaks up, then I assume they feel that way.

If Dean and treason are used in the same sentence, and no one defends it, then we his supporters may assume we are as well.

If you don't see a problem with equating Dean to treason, then think about it.

[drfemoe]

115. No you get a party

at DU for setting the record straight ..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=760394

party hat anyone?

[boxster]

132. Do you think there are just thousands of people looking at your thread?

"If no one speaks up, then I assume they feel that way"

Ah, guilt by lack of association. You didn't respond (even though you didn't even see the post), therefore you must agree that Dean is treasonous.

Ridiculous.

No offense, but I doubt that all of the members on DU sit around waiting breathlessly for your next post. Don't expect 100 people to jump all over one comment in one thread when there are thousands upon thousands of posts a day on DU.

No one spoke up, because A) your thread didn't interest them, or B) they thought the "treason" argument so ridiculous that they didn't bother responding.

If you honestly believe that every DUer that didn't respond thinks Dean's a traitor, you need to step back and realize how that sounds. Most of the people who were responding in your post were Dean supporters, so what did you expect?

In fact, to use your logic, I guess that every Dean supporter who read this thread but didn't respond to the treason argument also believes it, right?

And thank you for not reading my post. I quite clearly said, "Of course he's not a traitor." Nice knee-jerk reaction, though.

[madfloridian]

134. Not one person said it was out of line to use treason and Dean together.

You know, I understand how you feel. I really do. I really did think that everyone just waited on my next words. Whoda thunk it.
:shrug:

[boxster]

141. That's my point. No Dean supporters (except maybe one) jumped

in either. You really didn't say whether or not that makes them as bad as Dean non-supporters.

The point is: no one thinks Dean is treasonous. People didn't respond because arguing with the one poster out of 40,000 who made the reference and apparently thinks that is a useless waste of time.

It's an argument that is a sure loser, because A) the basis for the argument is ridiculous, and B) you're accomplishing nothing other than attracting attention to the argument, and C) if someone was misguided enough to make the connection in the first place, they're likely determined enough to keep the argument going.

Let it die. Don't draw attention to it, and it'll go away. If we threw a fit every time that someone told a lie about one of our candidates, we'd spend all of our time defending stupid assertions. Wallowing in self-pity or begging people to respond to an obviously false and misguided assertion isn't going to do anything other than waste time.

Take it from a Clark supporter who saw and ignored "Clark is a Republican" threads for months. It's not worth your time. Either people believe it, or they don't.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

195. peep

I agree with you, boxster.

I read this thread with growing nausea that it was said
here at DU, by a respected member, that it was taken
seriously, that it was regarded as rational, that it apparently
spawned a thread of praiuse for the poster. There is no
excuse for making the charge that Dean is treasonous, and
there is no excuse that it was allowed to remain on the
board.

[madfloridian]

196. Thank you.

But it is still on the board.

[edzontar]

197. The "treason" slander is unworthy and disgraceful.

And the fact that this crap is piling up here in the past several days is proof enough that not only are we not unified, but that the voices proclaiming this phantom of unity are the same voices that wish to purge and condemn, to silence all debate, and generally shut-down, in true Flordian fashion, the forces of democracy.

I am disgusted by what I have read here today.

[janx]

100. I've seen half a dozen requests for Dean to drop out in just

the last 24 hours.

I saw maybe one request for Kerry to do so.

The reason people were concerned about the Drudge story is that, if there is ANY truth to it whatsovever, (and we're not assuming there is), we absolutely cannot afford to find out about is later rather than sooner.

[boxster]

133. Kerry's the front-runner. Why should he drop out?

Anyone suggesting he drop out is doing so out of nothing other than dislike for Kerry. I saw many, many suggestions that Kerry drop out. In the early "intern" threads, the people suggesting it were all over the place.

Dean, however, hasn't won a state and doesn't look like he's going to win one any time soon.

Suggesting Dean drop out and suggesting Kerry drop out are two entirely different subjects.

I don't think either one should drop out. I didn't think Clark should, either.

[janx]

138. I certainly don't advocate anyone's dropping out.

I'd like to see the process be allowed to work.

[w4rma]

77. It's the Kerry attitude of "Get over it." and "Don't cry in your teacups."

That pissed us off before, and the attitude does the same now. My suggestion is that the Kerry folks let things take their course instead of trying to toss wrenches into the system. Things will work out better for everyone if you do.

[Zhade]

85. No questions, Citizen! The Corporate Elite have made their choice!

Why bother with silly 'democracy' and your 'right' to 'vote'? Kerry has been anointed, all hail Kerry!

[WI_DEM]

120. why indeed should he get out?

Howard Dean can go on till the very end. At least we would have a voice out there talking about issues that I care about. I don't care if Dean has little or no chance to get the nomination at this point. If he goes on he can still get alot of delegates as long as he is at 15% or above in the primaries and Dean will do much better than that in states like California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Massachusetts (yes Massachusetts), Oregon, Vermont, Connectcut, Minnesota and several others. Maybe not enough delegates to win the nomination but I can see Dean arriving in Boston with 500-600 delegates and like Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988 he will help influence the platform and he will speak to the convention--where he will rip into Bush like nobody else--something he was doing two years ago while the Washington democrats were afraid of the boy Kings approval ratings.

[MurikanDemocrat]

131. Dean is not being asked to drop out now, he is being pressured to

bow out AFTER the WI primary, as he indicated he would do in his make or break in WI announcement.

There are reasons for staying in the primary race even though one does not have a foreseeable chance of winning the nomination. Edwards, Sharpton, and Kucinich add to the platform and the debate and focus toward the goal of the election, which is to remove Bush from the White House.

Dean's agenda is to attack the nominee with the best chance to unseat Bush, the other candidates by calling many of then Republicans, and the Democratic Party itself. In other words, an agenda that better suits the enemy.

The goal of the Democratic Party is to win the election in November. The Democratic Party does not revolve around Dean.

I agree with everything The Magistrate has said on this.

[stickdog]

164. Kerry has no chance to unseat Bush. None whatsoever.

He agreed with Bush on Bush's biggest blunders.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

165. The Vast Majority of Voting Democrats Disagree With You (eom)

DTH

[stickdog]

166. With the media cheerleading them all the way.

Kind of like the way the media led the cheers for the Iraq War, huh?

No reason to distrust the media. Nope. They'd never steer us in the wrong direction. Never.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

168. Kerry Will Win This Race Because He Won Iowa

He took a huge gamble and it paid off. That's all.

I have no quarrel with you about the media, as I agree it wields far too much influence. As a supporter of the "other" candidate with real grassroots support, believe me, it pisses me off that volunteer efforts can only make up to about 5% of a difference, but media momentum can make up around 30% of a difference.

But that's not why Kerry is winning. Dean had plenty of good media coverage, before Iowa (or if you prefer, he had no worse media coverage than any other candidate, certainly). If anything, blame the stupid overimportance of Iowa in our primary system.

DTH

[stickdog]

170. Dean had 10 times as much negative coverage as any other

candidate, including current front-runner Kerry.

Clark got screwed as well, and Kucinich gets almost no coverage that ISN'T negative.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

175. My Perception Differs From Yours

Before Iowa, Dean had lots of media coverage, some good, some bad. Before Iowa, Kerry had very little media coverage at all. If I were running, I'd rather have the former.

DTH

[stickdog]

178. This isn't advertising. There IS such a thing as bad publicity in politics

[MurikanDemocrat]

181. On the contrary, the voters decided not to let the media chose for them

The people voting in these primaries are not "sheeple"; they are making an informed choice.

Dean was the unquestioned front runner most of last year, and all but crowned the obvious victor of the Democratic nomination. To follow your logic one would have to believe that before the Iowa primary people were making the “right” choice because they were well informed and politically astute, and that now that the voting has started people are making the “wrong” choice because their IQ’s suddenly all took a nosedive and they are allowing the media to chose for them. What happened is that people did NOT allow the media make their choice for them. (Dean) They made up their OWN minds, and voted in greater numbers for Kerry instead.

[madfloridian]

198. What % of the voters is that?

I have not voted, none of my state has. NY has not voted. CA had not voted.

[MurikanDemocrat]

199. So far about 25%

But we are not in the dark about the remaining states. Polls clearly show more of the same. Kerry has an overwhelming lead in most states.

Here are some numbers - They are a couple weeks old but I don't know of a more current website. Chances are the numbers have only improved for Kerry and become worse for Dean:

Florida - 1/24-26

Kerry 38%
Dean 16%
Edwards 14%
Clark 10%
Lieberman 8%
Sharpton 6%
other 3%
undecided 5%

California - 1/31-2/2

Kerry 49%
Dean 18%
Edwards 12%
Clark 8%
other 9%
undecided 5%

New York - 2/4-10

Kerry 53%
Dean 12%
Edwards 8%
Clark 8%
Sharpton 4%
Kucinich 3%
undecided 6%

[MurikanDemocrat]

180. The evidence proves otherwise

The majority of the Democratic voters are not making IWR and the PATRIOT Act a litmus test for their choice of candidates. The biggest factor with the public is that they are angry with Bush and they want him the hell out of office.

Kerry has won 14 of 16 primaries. Dean has won a single primary. A pretty good indication that Kerry has a good chance of beating Bush, and that Dean has no chance at all.

Another measure is a poll of head to head match between Kerry and Bush - Kerry 57%, Bush 43%. I believe the source was a USA Today article.

Your insistence that Kerry has no chance whatsoever to beat Bush is not rational or based on fact.

[Southsideirish]

143. The party wants the Dean people's money - ain't going to happen.

Do they really think, if he drops out, we are going to re-direct our financial support to them or ....Kerry??? Never in a hundred, never in a million, never in a billion years would I contribute a cent to either of them.

[MoonRiver]

152. Because it's time?

:shrug:

[CWebster]

189. It is politically correct to pay tribute to Dean

with the understanding that he step aside---along with all the issues that he introduced- so that the chosen nominee can ascend to his annoited role. We are all expected to fall in line without question and most are willing to accept the simplistic ABB soundbite and dismiss all that they have been angry about(anger is wrong) for the past three years. The election has become a referundum on Viet Nam. Perhaps, the powers that be have decided Bush has become to much of a liability and have framed the election around issues to benefit Kerry. Since Kerry isn't in a position to challenge Bush, but will pose no challenge to politics as usual, the media is more than willing to ignore or dismiss issues that clash with the corporate agenda. The Democratic strategy is to play to the swing voter and that is the voter most likely influenced by the dominant winning propaganda. As long as the propaganda is dominated by corporate interests, the citizens interests will be marginalized, along with any candidates who would seek to air them.