With all the misinformation it's time to set the record straight about Florida.

[William769]

Yes the vote was unanimous in the House meaning all Democrats and all Republicans voted to change our primary date. The reason the vote was unanimous is this. PAPER BALLOTS! It should also be noted that the Democratic State party also agrees with this move.

I have also applied this morning to become a Florida delegate. If If the National Democratic party wants to take us on in Florida, so be it, they will lose. It will go to court and we will win. The Bottom line is this is, it's a good move for the Florida voters and our vote will count and be counted correctly in God only knows how long.

The showdown will come this Saturday and hopefully cooler heads will prevail. If not, hang on because it's going to be a roller coaster ride.

[rateyes]

1. So, you couldn't get paper ballots without

breaking party rules?

[William769]

3. When you are not the majority party, you take what you can get.

Since the paper ballot measure was attached to this bill, thats why it was a unanimous vote.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. So you are saying that Florida is changing its Democratic

primaries at the behest of the Republican party?

[William769]

9. Oy vey.

Where was the outrage over electronic voting? now we have the chance to go back to paper ballots, and we are going to have outrage over this?

[madfloridian]

17. Yes, that is what he is saying. Florida collaborated.

.

[rateyes]

12. Sounds like excuses to me...

You got Democrats on board with breaking party rules because of paper ballots? Come on. All but ONE Democrat voted for this bill. As you say, the Republicans are in the majority. Republicans could have passed the bill without the paper ballot provision. So, why did they attach the paper ballot provision? Because the Republicans are nice people?

That's like the Democratic leadership in Congress (who are in the majority) saying, "We wrote the blank check to fund the Iraq War because the minimum wage increase was attached." It's throwing a bone to people to justify doing what they wanted to do anyway. It's called political cover.

This is about MORE than paper ballots.

[MaineDem]

2. What's happening Saturday? n/t

[William769]

5. Final dispostition on whats going to happen to Florida by the DNC.

[MaineDem]

8. Sorry, that was last Saturday

The Florida Party has 30 days to come up with a new plan or face sanctions.

Edited for spelling.

[William769]

10. I just got off the phone with the State party chair and she informed me it will be this Saturday

And then there would be 30 days. :shrug:

[MaineDem]

11. I watched the vote on Saturday.

Not sure what Karen means but she must know.

:shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. What do paper ballots have to do with violating the party rules

on the primaries? I don't see the connection. Please explain.

[William769]

6. See post #3.

[Mojorabbit]

14. The contest

goes on long enough as it is. I don't want to be voting in Dec for pete's sake. I think this was a way to stick it to Dr Dean also and the whole thing pisses me off. I want my vote to count but I am pissed off at the state leadership.

[durrrty libby]

13. I am so glad you are involved and will keep us posted, because

frankly, the whole debacle has me confused

Do you think Crist is on the side of Democracy?

[William769]

16. Being a Republican, I still have my reservations about him.

But to date he does not seem to fit the Republican mold that we have seen for the past 7 years. He has already changed hoe felons get thier civil rights restored (for the better). I will hold my judgment on him for a while longer to see how things go.

[madfloridian]

15. What showdown. It came last Sat. The DLC dems will kill Florida's heart and soul.

I have had it.

Go with the lawsuit. I would love it. I think it would show who is lying and spinning.

[William769]

18. I guarantee you the Courts will take into consideration voters rights.

Something the DNC had no problem using to their advantage in the past two Presidential elections. There is no lying when it comes to protecting voters rights. Not counting our our delegates will disenfranchise all Democratic voters in Florida. See that word (disenfranchise) can be a double edge sword.

[MaineDem]

19. I'm pretty sure the Supreme Court has ruled that Parties run their nomination process

I don't think the lower courts will get involved in this.

[William769]

20. As a private citizen my civil rights have to be protected.

When a lawsuit is filed it will have to be addressed. The Supreme Court may have ruled on the nomination process, but were voter rights involved?

[MaineDem]

22. What voter rights?

The Democratic Party Rules say states can hold their first step in the selection of delegates no earlier than 2/05/08 with the exception of one state in each region.

There is a provision in the rule for states that are subverted by Republican Legislatures. The state parties have to show that they fought against any such legislation. It seems the Rules and Bylaws Committee felt, almost unanimously, that Florida didn't do that.

As I said before, Washington state, I believe it was, faced a similar problem. They have decided to hold their preliminary delegate selection step (either a primary or caucus) within the allowed window. Florida can do the same and not face sanctions.

The 30-day period will show a lot. I feel a compromise will be reached.

[William769]

24. The only compromise I will accept is Howard Deans resignation.

Thankfully he lost the last primary. If he can't run the DNC, how in the hell would he have run this Country.

[MaineDem]

25. This shows you have absolutely no idea of the process

This is not an anti-Dean issue. Well, maybe it is to some people.

I was not a Dean supporter in '04 but that has no relevance in this discussion.

[William769]

26. His governing has everything to do with it.

[MaineDem]

27. No, I'm afraid it doesn't

He didn't make the rules. Representatives to the DNC, elected by each state (including Florida), passed these rules a year ago.

And sanctions are AUTOMATIC for violation of the rules.

But, you do what you feel is right. It's the Democratic way.

[RaleighNCDUer]

34. Not an anti-Dean issue?

It certainly is to the DLC. That's why the DLC is pushing this, to undercut the DNC, which represents ALL democrats, not just the neo-liberal wing.

[MaineDem]

35. I think you may be right

Besides, I've learned that those who post don't necessarily understand.

[rateyes]

28. Well, that statement says a whole lot more about you...

than it does Howard Dean. Dean didn't create the rules. The party did. He abides by the rules, and so does the Florida Democratic Party, or under the rules, face sanctions.

No one is trying to take any "voter rights" from you. Under the rules, adopted by all (and voted for with Florida delegates on board)Florida can hold it's primary---giving you your vote--not disenfranchising you--on February 5. The only people that will be responsible for Florida not getting delegates at the DNC in Denver will be Florida. Florida is doing that by violating the rules. Go ahead and take it to court. Florida will lose.

[William769]

29. As MaineDem pointed out, there could be a compromise.

That says a lot about Howard Dean and hs governing skills. It should not have gotten this far. The Messiah has screwed this up royally.

[madfloridian]

30. I'm so glad you now recognize Dean as the Messiah. Took you long enough.

:hi:

[William769]

33. Just calling him what you wanted to hear.

[rateyes]

32. As you said,

the only compromise you'll accept is seeing Dean fired. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Florida voted for the rules, and now doesn't want to abide by the rules. That's not Dean's fault. That's Florida's fault.

Dean is right on this one, Messiah or not.

[madfloridian]

21. Here's what the rules committee knew when they met. Alarming.

It was sent out by a state rep.

"4. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after receiving a call from DNC Chair asking for help in opposing setting the primary date before February 5, “I don’t represent Howard Dean.”

5. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5th, that the only reason he offer it was “to show that there was an attempt to state within the Democratic Party rules.” The amendment failed on a voice vote with no debate being offered.

6. Florida Senate Democratic Legislators voted in committee to move the primary to January;

7. Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate.

[William769]

23. What are the House and Senate rules on Debate?

[Igel]

31. Presumably, there's no rule

requiring that the legislator offering an amendment "mock his own amendment", nor are there rules, I'm thinking, on how minority members must vote. Even pointing out that debate was forbidden wouldn't help.

And this is the rub: One can find loopholes to justify the object of one's belief for just so long, pushing the opponent to find ever more obscure facts to allow "the dems may not be guilty" to be read as "the dems are mostly certainly innocent".

Sadly, it was only a voice vote on this amendment, if the adduced citation is accurate. A roll-count vote would have been much more informative.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

39. Thanks!

[MagsDem]

37. How will you win in court?

What federal law says the DNC has to accept Florida delegates at its convention? I'm just curious.

[sendero]

38. Fuck Florida..

... the fucking epicenter of everything that is wrong with America. And Ground Zero for the first stolen presidential election.

Fuck Florida.