I frankly don't get much pleasure in reading DU anymore.

[Auntie Bush]

In 2004 I could hardly tear myself away from the computer...it was so exciting...even after Clark dropped out. Yes, we had differences but we each tried to elevate our own candidate and show why they were better qualified than the others. We were all loyal to our candidate...but took a hard gulp and got on the bandwagon and joined hands...well most of us.

Not so this year! It feels like I'm on a Freeper type site...filled with vitriol and hatred. All anyone on this site does is bash our Democratic candidates. NO one is posting anything about our policies...and what our candidate stands for. I'll bet no one knows the differences between platforms. They just bash Democrats all to hell and predict dire future happenings if we get in office. Have ye no faith...anyone?

I don't know about anyone else but this place gives me no pleasure lately. I'm very tempted to take off till after the primaries and then hope we can unite with our candidate. Then if this type of discussion continues I'm out of here! Trouble is...I still love DU and would find that very difficult...damit! But I wish I could read with a bit of pride for our party...not a sicking lump in my stomach! Can 't we change the attitude around here?

[grasswire]

1. remember that the GOP wants you to feel ...

... isolated and sickened and betrayed.

And, so does the left -- the left that divided the party in 2000 by telling you there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Bush and Gore.

Those people are all lying to you, but they are also deliberately causing chaos and bitterness.

Ignore it, please.

[cui bono]

39. Don't blame it on the left. Gore won, the election was stolen. The left didn't steal it.

The Dems would have a lot more respect from everyone if the centrists would vote to end the war. The left Dems are the only ones who put their votes where their mouths are.

The centrists are cowering in fear and allowing BushCo to terrorize them into voting away our civil rights.

And how is your post not divisive?

[rwheeler31]

2. I agree there is no joy. I think we are just tired of the crap.

[superkia]

3. I see the same thing and posted earlier asking for some help on my decision.

This is from another post :
So far my vote goes to Dennis Kucinich for a couple of reasons.

He will end this war for money and use political dialogs to keep us out of war.
He has spoken out about the attacks on the constitution by the government.
He is for non profit health care for all.
He stood up and said the war was about oil and NEVER voted for it from the beginning.
He doesn't spit out the word terror or terrorist in every speech to keep us in fear and to boost up the terrorist industrial complex.
He has spoke out and in favor of impeachment of Dick Cheney.
He wants the patriot act repealed.
He is against NAFTA.
He answers questions directly, like any PRESIDENTIAL candidate should.

Ok, thats enough for now, I hope that everyone would join in with why they support their candidate and maybe we can get our country out of the gutter and elect the best person for the people.

[Mike Nelson]

4. I am shocked at how timid elected Democrats are...

...in standing up and declaring the regime of Bush/Cheney evil.

[The Wielding Truth]

5. Read anything about Kucinich and that will change your mind.

He is really who we are,IMHO. We complain when we don't see it in the other candidates. That is what I've been seeing here. I also see a lot of things in this government and our party to complain about, so I don't blame those who fuss. We have such great hopes and we want to see then but .......

So far, Al Gore isn't running.

[Bonobo]

6. How can discussing the political situation of this country give anyone pleasure?

It's horrible. Horrible.

Just looking at what is happening on so many levels is SO hard. So depressing. But it is better to know than not to know.

Frankly, I see DU as a very good indication of what is happening in our society in general.

Although it is true that in some sense, DU is NOT analagous to the rest of this country, it actually is in many ways VERY representative. We have our right wing and our left wing, our lovers, our haters, our attackers and our healers, our old and young, our working class and upper class, our artists and tradesman, etc.

What I see here is a slipping and sliding towards authoritarianism and paranoia. We attack others, we attack ourselves, we are jumpy, on a hair-trigger, ready to attack and assume we are being attacked. We are at each other's throats all the time now.

We are depressed. We are angry. We feel like we can't do anything, affect anything.

Our marches fail, our phone calls seem to accomplish little. It is depressing and has become more so since the Dems took the Senate and Congress and still nothing has changed.

Let us hang in a bit longer, Auntie. Please. Let's see if we can come out the other side together. Maybe then we will all smile at each other and shake hands, hug and feel good again.

How about it? It's been tough for all of us, so I think I know exactly where you are at.

:hug:

[Auntie Bush]

12. Thanks for the explanation and understanding...it actually made me

all teary eyed. Kind of like when we are in pain or angry, we fight with our loved ones instead of the true culprits. It's tough being human!

[Bonobo]

17. Also, Wes dropping out broke my last drop of hope... ;(

I didn't notice until just now that you are a Clark supporter. That is probably part of it for you too, is my guess.

Frankly, that one felt like a blow to the gut. Very low tolerance for pain at this point.

I feel pessimistic as all hell. I am ready to fight for this country, but I feel like we have no weapons.

Powerless in Massachusetts should be my new handle.

[defendandprotect]

7. This is a load of crap -- these people were elected to end the war ---

Like the Bush's family views on "loyalty," taken literally it can lead to criminal behavior.
Like the GOP "loyalties" which have delivered most of what Bush has wanted, it can harm our nation.

Iraq is a very important plank in all of the candidates' platforms -- perhaps one of the most essential planks.

I guess some here might be willing to "pretend" for you that there is nothing wrong with the Democratic Party -- including the DLC right-wing block in the Democratic Party !!!! -- and that there are no problems with any of the Democratic candidates . . . . ???

But not me --

[Norrin Radd]

63. Yep.

This is a fight for our lives, our liberties. Roll up your sleeves and get in it!

[AtomicKitten]

8. I think it has more to do with our circumstance.

America's journey from the 12/00 judicial coup d'etat until now has been nothing short of a nightmare, and we can only imagine what further damage will be inflicted before 1/20/09.

That and people realize this is a unique opportunity to really change the world.

Hang in there. We have nowhere to go but up.

Cheers.

[stillcool]

9. Something's going on...

there does seem to be an influx of perturbed people...but then outside of DU, there seems to be an under-current of tension....the pesky little irritants of life have magnified..or maybe it's just me.

[Auntie Bush]

22. No, I don't think it's you.

Many times I feel like we've been infiltrated by the enemy. But then I take my tin hat off and say nope...it's just us Damnocrats.

There's just one thing to do...actively help more Democrats get in office and get a veto proof majority. Then there will be no more excuses for not changing direction. Give more money to our congressmen for their election.
Work at making sure Democrats stay in control of congress instead of tearing down our nominees along with the Freepers.

[stillcool]

30. The day to day...

back-stabbing of my guy vs. your guy ...doesn't phase me. The votes our representatives cast that harm most Americans bothers me. The entire political system bothers me. It seems to me people interested in politics have no desire to discuss the underlying factors that have lead to our current reality, but focus all the attention on the horse race...betting the odds. I don't understand how things change with that philosophy. Is there no room for truth?

[peacetalksforall]

10. I am a critic of our Dem leaders. As long as any of them sanction the bombing of Iran

I will be ripping them apart with criticism. As long as they don't do more about our kids from VA to assignements to leaves to equipment to mercenary privileges over them, I will yeall and scream at our Dem leaders. As long as they allow the torture and lack of rights I will denounce them. It is simple for me. Some are performing as if this wasn't going on and some are voting for with Republicans. How should I show my support for that?

[Auntie Bush]

31. I'm with you on all those points! What Dem isn't? It's what we

are fighting for! Sounds like you're angry before we've had a chance to do that...BUT WE NEED A VETO PROOF MAJORITY FIRST? We also HAVE to compromise sometimes on some things in order to get elected. I know that stinks...but this is a democracy!

[bklyncowgirl]

11. I hear you Auntie. Here's a bit about what's good about each of the Democratic candidates.

I haven't fallen in love with any candidate--to be perfectly honest I have reservations about all of them. There are some I like a bit better than others, some I think would do a better job as president, but any one of the lot is better than any of the Republicans and that's the bottom line. I'm going to end up having to support one of them so I better be able to see the good in any one of them. I just pretty much ignore the attack threads--or the stars in the eyes "I love my candidate" threads.

Here then is what I see as the good in each of the candidates. In order of their poll standards.

Hillary Clinton: The Clintons know how to fight. Hillary will win or go down kicking & screaming. And of course there's Bill.

Barack Obama: Great guy, wonderful speaker and writer and a hopeful vision of what this country should be. Gotta love Michelle too.

John Edwards: Fighting for the rights of the downtrodden--that's what It's all about--and Elizabeth, can't say enough about her.

Bill Richardson: Experience and knowledge in the form of a man whose personal specialty is making brutal wackjob dictators see reason.

Joe Biden: Smart, and fully knowledgeable--he wouldn't have to have HIS speechwriters spell Caracas phonetically.

Dennis Kuchinich: An untiring champion of peace and justice--not to mention a figure of hope for all short homely guys who dream that somewhere there's a tall beautiful woman who'll love them for their minds.

Chris Dodd: An Irish mensch with a great deal of wisdom to boot.

Mike Gravell: Channels the anger and outrage that I am feeling most of the time better than anyone.

[beaconess]

15. One of the most informative posts I've seen in a long time!

[superkia]

23. Thank you for giving you outlook of the candidates. We more people...

to do the same.

[rudy23]

26. Great post. That should be a sticky!

Something to go back to every time we get down.

[Auntie Bush]

35. Now that's the kind of post I like to read. I agree with every one

of your comments! I'm not sure who I'll vote for yet either. I'm still looking, thinking and researching. I also have my concerns about all of them. I just wish Clark was running, then I'd be in 7th heaven!

[saltpoint]

36. I don't know one Democratic committee chair who wouldn't kill to have you

in their precinct.

:thumbsup:

:dem:

[cui bono]

41. This is really a response to those who replied to post #11 before me...

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but that really is kind of like a Hallmark greeting card. While the poster is saying something nice about each candidate, it doesn't tell anyone anything about them as far as their policies. There's nothing in there that is something to use as criteria to vote for someone. This kind of thing isn't going to help determine who should be the candidate. Sure it's a feel good, can't we all get along sort of thing, but that's not going to get us anywhere.

There's nothing wrong with criticism of someone's policies and such. You have to do that to point out why they're not the best candidate. That's how it works.

I'm more disappointed at the authoritarian tendencies I've been seeing on this board. That really scares me.

[bklyncowgirl]

44. Don't worry, I can go on and on (and have) about the negative things about each candidate too.

What I find a bit tiresome are the true partisans who can be counted on to obsessively push their candidate at the expense of all others.

Hillary Clinton, for example, is not my personal favorite but there are powerful reasons to vote for her. I am not in agreement with her on Iraq and frankly I blame Bill for NAFTA. Would she make a better president than any of the Republicans? Compare Bill Clinton to George W. Bush and get back to me on that.

[reggie the dog]

62. That depends

If you are a laborer or a work at one of the remaining factories in the USA as far as your PERSONAL life is concerned you were no better or no worse off with Clinton or Bush. Now I am not talking about foreign policy, but hell domestic policy is important too.

[LanternWaste]

53. I think there's a distinct and relevant difference

I think there's a distinct and relevant difference between critiquing or analyzing a candidate, and simply denigrating the candidate instead. It's the latter that I feel will not only prevent us from getting anywhere, but may also fracture the foundation to the point in which it has to be relaid.

[LanternWaste]

51. I actually believe yours may be the first post...

I actually believe yours may be the first post to say positive things about the candidates with absolutely no denigrations or back-handed compliments I've seen on DU this cycle! :toast:

If for nothing else, thank you for that! I wish I had your will-power to avoid the attack threads-- I allow myself to get sucked into them every day...

[beaconess]

13. My sentiments exactly! Thank you! n/t

[TheDoorbellRang]

14. I guess

we must be the change we wish to see. I myself have become so clenched up internally with what I see as everything gone so wrong in our country, it's hard -- sometimes impossible -- for me not to be a negative wave. Sometimes it becomes too easy to react to the vitriol and hatred we've encountered with those very same tools, and it takes a reminder from posters like you that it. just. doesn't. help.

I haven't taken time to study the other candidates as of yet (I'm one of those Gore "fantasizers"), but it would be helpful for those who are still sitting on the fence to compile comparison data issue by issue of all our candidates.

[ralphmich3]

16. Presidential elections are beauty contests

driven by big media and fund-raising contests...

the campaigns aren't about issues... The media has already picked Hillary as the nominee with a single vote being cast in a primary...

The system is dysfunctional and undemocratic...

[Think82]

60. if they were real elections....

Biden would be the front-runner. sigh. BIDEN 08

[Gman]

18. The most vicious ones, and they know who they are

are no better than the worst Republic. They hang around here and, simply put, disrupt. They are committed to undermining the Democratic Party. This is still Democratic Underground. If they don't like it, they should really get on down the road. But they feel they can do the most damage by just staying here.

They act outraged when I call them just as much the enemy as the most vile Republic. Fact is, they are the enemy in our midst. I'm a Democrat and I've fought many, many battles for the party over the years. I don't appreciate these punks coming in here and bashing my candidates, my Congress and my Senate. And they're all my candidates and our candidates from Hillary to Kucinich and from the court house to the White House (Democrat coming soon in January 09). We as Democrats will pick one for each contested race next year and fight together to get 'em into office.

[emilyg]

32. Thank you.

[Auntie Bush]

37. Hear! Hear! That's more like it!

Gee, I still love this place...sometimes!

[Fly by night]

19. It feels like we're running about 30-40% freeper here these days.

And seriesly, these hugh morans cant spel wurth a shite!!11!!!11!

[Vilis Veritas]

20. There is only one way to conquer the people...

Allow them to conquer themselves by constantly pointing out all their nuanced differences and whispering in their ears that the other person does not really want the same things as you...

To pit us all against the other, so that there are no sides only a massive circle argument that never ends.

To divide, is to conquer.

Peace to all that is DU...

No Fear.

[ooga booga]

21. There's a lot of us who don't enjoy DU much these days.

It's an awkward time still well before any primaries. So much being said in favor or against candidates and "dream candidates". Once the primaries and caucuses hit, a lot of players will be forced to bow out and the way ahead will be a lot clearer. 'Til then all of us politically inclined nerds are stuck with the current unsatisfactory state of affairs.

[HughMoran]

24. I completely agree with you

You've writen a post there that is a good summary of my thoughts about DU lately.

[ozone_man]

25. 2004 had some better candidates.

Dean, Clark, and even Kerry. They were much better than the dismal field of Clinton, Obama, and Edwards. Kucinich and Gravel are the only candidates who offer a real choice for progressive, antiwar voters to rally behind. If you want status quo candidates, then the Clinton, Obama, Edwards should please you. Progressives are not happy with those choices and are being vocal about it, about ending the Iraq war, corporate trade policies, economic and social inequity.

If the electorate is getting angry about these things, then that's a sign of hope. Let them get angry! The only way to make real change is to wake them up from their matrix-like existence. These Democrats (except for Kucinich and Gravel, Obama is a novice) voted for the Iraq war leading to over 600,000 Iraquis deaths. Talk about a holocaust that we are in denial about! Those votes should be talked about openly. That's one of the things we do here. Hold politicians feet to the fire. If we have to bash some of these corporate Democrats, so be it. It's only because we expect more from the Democratic Party. Now is not the time to settle for the lesser of evils, but to demand real change, the end of war, and so on. That's the way I see it.

[notadmblnd]

27. You gotta remember; trolls do come here to upset the applecart

I don't pay too much attention to the bickering about the candidates here. Trolls come and try to get us to hate on each other, so I take everything that is written with a grain of salt. Besides nothing anyone says is going to change my mind about who I choose to support. So try not to take it too seriously and don't read the threads that you know are going to disappoint you.

[zulchzulu]

28. Balance DU with grassroots efforts

Find out from your local Democratic office what is going on locally. Help out those who are supporting your candidate(s) of choice and pitch in that way.

Eat your grassroots vegetables with your DU protein.

:hi:

[Catchawave]

29. I tried to raise the bar here, only 32% agreed with me :(

My old poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3499329

I know how you feel though :hug: Freeperville nightmares here too :scared:

I spend a lot more time on Daily Kos which is member moderated, but DU will always be my "dysfunctional family". Love it a lot, hate it a lot. We'll be fine.

[doc03]

33. Same here, was so excited when we

took control of the Congress and our so called leaders have let us down from the start (now an 11% approval rating). Just saw Nancy Palosi a few hours ago and she said again impeachment is off the table. It seems as though there are no Democrats with any guts, even though Bush is the most hated President in history he beats them down on every issue it's disgusting. It's obvious the MSM has decided to shove Hillery down our throats they have her as our nominee and not one vote has been cast. I am so disgusted with the whole process I rarely even visit DU anymore. I believe the MSM is going to set us up for the biggest defeat in history, once it is decided Hillery is our candidate they will destroy all chances of her winning. It is just depressing to even discuss politics anymore.

[Auntie Bush]

38. The media did that with Dean! We complained the Media was picking out our

candidate for us. Then we/they tore him down like a sheet of wallpaper.
The same thing can happen to Hillary!

[doc03]

58. Exactly, although Hillary is by far my

last choice I will vote for her unless someone like Gore runs on a third party ticket. But I am convinced no matter what the polls say about Hillary's support she just cannot win. I think people in this country are a lot more prejudiced here in the mid-west and the south than most people like to admitt. I don't think Hillary or Obama have a chance of winning the election, they may carry more votes but they won't win the electoral vote.

[bonito]

34. Oh brother you said it

I feel like a clingon myself.

[madfloridian]

40. I think a lot of us post concerns out of worry about Iran and Iraq

and the fact that our Democrats are sending mixed messages pretty openly.

I notice the the Social Security issue is coming up again now.

It is really a lot about worry.

I do post about what the Democrats do because I worry. Just like I am very worried about what Florida is doing.

I think we really have to do it.

[rhett o rick]

42. I was devastated in 2000 when the republicans stole the election.

I figured that the Democrats would rally against this attack on the foundation of democracy. I worked hard and was totally destroyed when the republicans did it again. For the second time they stole the election. Fool me once and shame on me fool me twice and fuck you. But there was Kerry saying that he conceded. He conceded. I guess all is fair in love and politics. Why did he concede?? I had a extremely hard time recovering from his betrayal. His failure to fight for our freedoms. I and I believe many others were determined to fight even harder. In 2006 we overcame huge obstacles to give the Democrats a majority not only in the HOR but also in the Senate. And they turn around and stab us in the eye with their support of BushCorp condemnation of Moveon.org. THEY SUPPORTED THE FASCIST F****** DICTATOR. I wonder if he sent those traitorous bastards flowers after they voted as he wished.

But now the Democrats, like Lucy holding the ball for Charlie Brown, are saying, one more time. Just give us your trust one more time. Honest we won't disappoint you again.

Looks to me like we will not change things until it gets so bad that the guillotines are brought out. I will work against a violent resolution, but I don't see any hope for a peaceful change. I guess you can't go home again.

[gateley]

43. I'm a newbie so I can't compare DU to the good old days, but I've been struck

by just how accommodating and respectful the people here are compared to other sites I've visited. I've also asked some really basic, dumb questions in an effort to understand the situations and politics in general since I'm coming to this really late in life. People have been very generous and willing to give of their expertise for which I'm grateful. I admit when I see a thread -- or a reply in a thread -- which seems argumentative I've already learned to just pass on by. I don't have it in me to let my energy be drained by their negativity and pettiness.

I guessing 4 years ago there was more hope and optimism all around than there is now after these years of being defiled by Bush and the enormous letdown of our high expectations of Congress.

I'm sorry it has become this for you.

Take care!

Edited to change something really embarrassing.

[polichick]

45. These are some of the darkest days America has ever seen...

What you see here reflects that darkness ~ fear, worry, anger, desperation, betrayal, hurt, despair.

It's always darkest just before the dawn and many had hoped dawn was coming with the 2006 election, but it didn't happen and now people are wondering whether this party has what it takes to make it through the night ~ the angst is understandable.

imo it's best to stay away from message boards unless you're in a relatively good place that day.

[CK_John]

54. IMO, the civil war yrs, 7 yrs of dust storms, flu yrs, depression yrs would seem to be worse. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

46. It isn't just this board..

In real life most people I know,even those who are not particularly politically aware are full of unease. They know things are terribly off kilter.
For me, it is that I was so euphoric after the last election and thought we would see some real change in congress and now I feel hopeless. The last fold over the FISA thing clinched it.I think we need someone with real vision to guide us through some of the most trying changes we have ever seen coming up, ie global warming, peak oil, protection of our liberties,etc and I don't see that person in the top tier. It scares me.

[sandnsea]

47. Agree and Disagree

I think the vitriol was worse in 2003, you must have seen it differently because you were involved with your candidate. Plus, Clark wasn't really targeted by anybody, the way some of the others were.

OTOH, there is also a huge lack of policy postings. I posted Dodd's Health Care Plan today, because it is very unique. One response. Unreal.

I think half the party is ecstatic about the win and aren't even concerned about policy variations; and the other half is distraught because we know the change we want isn't going to happen because one Democrat simply isn't as good as another.

Last time, specific people made it their individual responsibility to advocate for a specific candidate. They posted the speeches, policies and other info, kept threads kicked. Maybe you need to do that for a candidate who isn't getting enough attention, and you'd feel better.

[applegrove]

48. In the past we didn't spend as much time talking to people who support "others" in the primary.

And the DU was very different back a few years ago..more personal and smaller. People knew each other.

It is a very different world and DU is a different place. Sorry it is dragging you down. Hope you find a way to enjoy the DU again. Maybe take a step back or avoid certain threads. That is what I do.

[PatSeg]

49. I understand how you feel

but as some people here mentioned, other boards are far worse. Emotions are off the chart these days and for good reason. Unfortunately many people tend to speak from their emotions and direct their anger aimlessly into the atmosphere, not considering where it might land.

There is an upside to all this unbridled passion. More and more people are becoming involved in the political process. The days of apathy and complacency are passing and people are taking responsibility for the world they live in. We will not be unified in all things all the time, but we are unified in our desire to change the world for the better. The process will bring a lot of disagreements, but it also is bringing an awareness of who we are and what we stand to lose if we don't demand change.

Our current problems did not happen overnight. It took years of people living in their own little subjective lives, ignoring the gathering storm. People in power took advantage of that pervasive complacency, but they underestimated the power of the people's core beliefs, and they certainly never anticipated the effect of the Internet.

So for all the downsides of this open cyber dialogue, the upsides are worth it.

[CK_John]

50. I agree and we are losing many of the most informed posters, leaving us with those who mis inform

by design and the uninformed by selection.

[bread_and_roses]

52. I must have been reading a different DU than you were in '04 - it "sounded" just like now. (n/t)

[alfredo]

55. Success is our problem

We had become comfortable with being the, minority, the insurgents. It unified us. Winning in 2006 upset our whole self image. Now we have the power and we are in the uncomfortable position of maintaining and maybe expanding that power. If we were authoritarian, we would be more comfortable in a majority position.

[Armstead]

56. Do you forget what it was really like in 03-04?

This is tame compared to some of the Dean/Clark/Nader/ETC. flamefests and fueds that went on the last time around.

[Eurobabe]

57. I agree, it's depressing and maddening

Someone attacked me yesterday and said that I start threads and then "take umbrage when anyone disagrees with me." I was like WTF? The only thread I got pissed about and ever went off on was in the Lounge.

I find little joy on here , except in my DU groups. Feh, with the rest.

[harlinchi]

59. Bash democratic candidates and those who question the actions of certain states like...

Israel!

[concerned citizen23]

61. It is still possible to both criticize “your” party and support them at the same time

in fact constructive criticism can be the ultimate expression of support in that it demonstrates you hold a higher ideal you expect them to aspire for...

The truth is democracy is high maintenance. It requires vigilance by its citizens over those in power. We the people and all that stuff...

It is not democracy if it is acceptable to criticize one party while considered wrong or blasphemous to lambaste the other.

As history bears out, no party, individual, or institution is above reproach…Profit, greed, and thirst for power can corrupt any individual and in turn institutions. For corrupt individuals, government is merely an instrument. Our weakest link in our system today is an electoral process run amok by corporate-lobbyist funding.

Our only vanguard against corruption and abuse of power and the preservation of democracy is for a diverse and informed public to actively participant and challenge those in power...and to do so in a nonpartisan manner...the trouble is the number of voters who actually do this is a minority...

[texpatriot2004]

64. I know what you mean. I can remember what DU meant to me in

those days after the 2nd election was stolen in 2004. I have been here ever since. Lately, there seem to be a gazillion duplicate posts, encounters with DU oldtimers are few and far between these days, it seems there aren't many original threads, DUers I have seen here for quite awhile no longer have little gold stars...what's up with that? I am rambling but I can relate to your topic. I still love DU and DUers and I am still extremely grateful that DU is here. I still check in daily to see what is going on. I am working now so I am not posting alot but I am still here.