What if Clark/Dean or Dean/Clark went third-party?

[maggrwaggr]

You can say I'm in denial, but I'm really pissed off at how the whole primary thing has played out.

When Dean dropped out, I heard a giant silence as millions of excited people turned away from politics, maybe never to return.

Maybe I'm nuts, but I REALLY want to see someone throw out the old Democratic party and start a new one.

This party's broken, the country's broken, and we need to clean house.

Kerry ain't the guy for that. He's old guard. He's establishment.

He VOTED FOR IWR GODDAMNIT.

I just CAN'T vote for anybody who voted for the IWR

So who am I gonna vote for?

[Lindacooks]

1. So you'd really rather have Bush?

See, Repukes are different from Democrats. They understand the importance of sticking together. Because only when Democrats stick together will we get the White House back from those squatters!

I just don't understand why people can't see how unbelievably important this election is. So many things will change for the worse if Bush gets elected in 2004. Democrats HAVE to do everything they can to stop him.

[maggrwaggr]

3. Kerry voting for IWR makes him a Bush enabler

so what's the freaking difference?

The Democratic party doesn't deserve my vote if the best they can turn out is Kerry.

A lot of others are gonna feel the same way.

It sucks, but it's the truth, baby. The truth hurts.

[Catch22Dem]

7. What's the diff between Gore and Bush?

Millions of Nader voters said those exact words. Don't you think maybe, just maybe, Gore would have been a weeeeee bit different? Same thing applies here.

[maggrwaggr]

14. people need a serious wakeup call

C'mon, let's see what we have here. We've got fascists who have taken over the republican party and started invading countries.

You've got a Democratic party who has LET them do all of this ...

You've got corporations actually making their own laws now ....

And Americans are under the grand delusion that simply voting a Democratic corporatist into the executive branch to replace the fascist corporatist who is there is gonna fix ANYTHING?

This country is FUCKED UP. This country is going down the tubes.

And we think voting in a guy like Kerry's gonna fix everything?

Give me a break! This country is almost to the point of needing a goddamn revolution, this country needs its harddrive erased and re-installed, a whole new operating system.

[Catch22Dem]

23. Well, I'm afraid that's just not going to happen

Plain and simple. So, the choice (most likely) is Bush or Kerry. Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you, but at some point idealism has to give way to reality. The reality is, if Bush gets 4 more years, shit's gonna get REAL bad. Shit that may stand a chance of NOT going bad with Kerry in charge. Man, that's the fucking reality. That's the truth, and yeah, it hurts.

[zoeyfong]

64. It's definitely not going to happen if kerry wins.

Why should we expect change *after* kerry wins? When a politiican wins, they use the same strategy next time; they don't change a winning strategy. It only makes sense. That's why kerry represents stagnation for the democratic party, at best.

[angryinoville]

65. How can we start...

a revolution? Tell me where, and I'll sign up. I'm right there with you with everything you've said. Until there's an actual revolution, it's gonna be the same old shit over and over!

[maggrwaggr]

78. I wish I knew

If I were younger and didn't have kids, I'd be a lot more radical. I can't leave my kids. I can't risk my life because of them.

Those who don't have kids need to start something. We need to start a movement that is bi-partisan, that has nothing to do with Dems or Repugs and storm the goddamn capitol of this country and SHUT IT DOWN.

We need to throw the bums out and start over. Put in a new government. The fish tank is full of shit, it's time to clean it out and put in some fresh water.

[SerpentX]

11. If I were voting third party from a state that's in play

I wouldn't throw the "Bush enabler" label around.

[retyred]

72. Republicans aren't self obsorbed with themselves

With them it's for the good of the party even if they disagree with their leader.

You change nothing from the outside, and you change nothing from the top down.



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[John_H]

2. Obviously they'd split the Dem vote and Chimp would win. Jeez.

[Shanty Oilish]

30. Then, we'd need a 3rd + a 4th party

We'd have to have a 3rd party spinoff of the Democratic, simultaneously with a 4th party spinoff of the Republican, so that neither would automatically benefit from the fission of the other.

Now, how do we get Dems and Reps to agree to such a chicken run?

:)

[EXE619K]

4. Well, you can take....

Clark out of that equation. He's gone to the First-Party(or Second, depending on perspective I guess).

C/D or D/C....

Boy, that was a long time ago.

[Catch22Dem]

5. Perhaps you exaggerate a little

I don't think there is that profound of an effect with Dean dropping out. However, I'm afraid after the primaries, you might have a hard time here, because I'll bet any promotion of 3rd party candidates will be frowned upon. There will almost certainly be a temp hiatus on negative talk like there was during the '02 mid-terms.

[sleipnir]

6. Hard choices indeed.

I've struggled with the same questions.

I'm not sure I can vote for Kerry in Novem., but I probably will. That doesn't mean that I will send him any money or wear any of his buttons. No, nothing will make that happen.

I think that the current Dem party is as dead as doornail and that it will sadly be proven once again after * is given a second term. And the Dems will sit back and take it, like they took in 2000. I guess I'll stop crying in my teacup today, so I can brew a fresh pot of 2008.

[maggrwaggr]

8. How do we throw out the old, if we can't do it with primaries?

That's what I want to know.

Campaign finance reform? Give me a break. That's like asking the fox to build a door that will keep him out of the henhouse.

How do we fix our country? This party isn't doing it. We need something that WILL.

Who's got ideas?

[sleipnir]

20. True, new ideas are needed.

But, I'm not sure third-party this election will do it. I think that we need to build a voting bloc centered around Clark or Dean in Congress and all over the nation. Slowly, but surely, we'll amass numbers and maybe then, announce a new party to challenge the current Dem stagnate.

I fear real change will never come to this country. We are too deep-rooted in our traditions and stupid ways. Perhaps, four more years of Bush might wake us up, or at least allow us to rebuild from the rubble.

[maggrwaggr]

26. that's a good idea

We need to take over congress the way the neo-cons did.

Hmmmm.......

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. give the Dean organization another four years

and we might have some real change. It can't just be about Dean - but the small-donor fundraising, the decentralized organizations like the meetups, and the online communications - given some time - probably can't be stopped.

Of course, everyone is going to be doing that now, so you'll have some competition. If the Dean group is truly democratic, people will know it's the real deal.

[Turkw]

46. We need to promote things like instant runoff voting, which stops third

party candidates from being spoilers.

Progressive Democrats need to encourage Greens and other third parties to enlarge the practice of temporary affiliation switching, like some states allow for primaries. For example, if the Greens pick a candidate they want early, they should switch to Democrat and run their candidate in the Democratic party.

If it is a contested primary and their candidate looses, when they switch back, they can still run their candidate as a Green. If their candidate wins, they get the support of the Democratic party. Either way, the third party candidate can promote progressive ideas, and get more exposure.

[robertpaulsen]

57. Instant Runoff Voting is the future!

So far, the only Democratic candidate I know of who has spoken in favor of IRV is Dennis Kucinich. Yet another reason to vote for DK in the primaries.

www.kucinich.us

[WiseMen]

9. Take Deep Breath. Chant "IWR Wedge Issue" over and over.

It really was a wedge issue. Voting for or against IWR is not
what is telling regarding attitude to Bush and his unholy War.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Bush gets four more years

the Republic is dead.

That is what happens

Now Dean asked his suporters to remain involved

he begged US to stay active in the primaries

He begged us NOT to give up

Change comes slowly grasshopper

Now here is another piece of wisdon told to me by a US Senator... recently... "change in DC never comes from the inside, only from pressure from the outside." Do you understand what he meant by this? I will tell you what he meant... KEEP THE PRESSURE... and hells bells, next electoral cycle, RUN for something... anything! Just do it!

[maggrwaggr]

22. I will listen to Dean

I sure as hell won't listen to Kerry. Or Edwards.

No way.

This country committed a terrible crime. These people could have stopped it. They did not.

I am ashamed of my country. I am angry at those who failed to stop those who committed this crime.

I have always said I wanted anyone who voted for the IWR to be OUT of office ASAP.

I'm not gonna vote for one to be president.

But I will listen to Dean. I may not do what he says, but I will listen to him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Dean also asked you

to get behind the candidate

Now youy have no idea how or what exactly was used to scare these people into voting.

I suspect that we may learn a lot of what has been done in the next ten to twenty years

Here is a free clue, (and for some tinfoil moment) Antrax attack only affecting Demo leadership and the press.

Second item, you have no idea what scary powerpoint presentation was shown in classified meetings... and fear and paranoia grows by order of magnitude when you're close to the source.

I am not justifying them, but chances are... unless Martial Law is enacted and the Constitution suspended (not that far fetched, way too many statements from Bush and crew... including a top former general and the Head of The Supreme Court), that the Democratic Party will win, and it will win more than just the WH.

As I said, ten seconds after that, make sure you MAKE A COMMITMENT to pressure these boys and girls and to remind them who they work for. As to the IWR... yes it was a mistake, and yes it is a wedge issue.

Rove will use it if he can... to keep people like you at home

Now if a Third Party candidate has the same effectg as Nader did... and we get four more years of George, I hope you realize that there will be no electgions in 2008 as the transformation of this country into a police state will be well under way.

I sure hope you can live with that.

[Casablanca]

81. Kerry says "My IWR vote was a mistake." Voila, no wedge issue. ...

The fact that this hasn't yet seemed to occur to Kerry or many of his supporters is not a good sign for the Dems or a potential Kerry Presidency.

[NNN0LHI]

12. If Kerry had voted against IWR what would have changed? n/t

[maggrwaggr]

18. if he had voted against it, if he had tried to stop the war

I could vote for him.

He did none of this.

I cannot vote for him.

[NNN0LHI]

21. Nothing was stopping Bush's war. Tell me how Kerry could have stopped it

You cant do that, so your argument does not hold water. See ya.

Don

[maggrwaggr]

24. Congress could have stopped Bush's war

and you know it.

Don't give me that bullshit.

[Catch22Dem]

25. If you believe that...

I have a bridge to sell you. ;)

[maggrwaggr]

27. if you don't believe that ....

you're a hundred times more cynical than I am.

[Hav]

50. lol

"Congress could have stopped Bush's war"

You mean the Congress with the "democratic majority" could have stopped the war?

And no, there will be no Dean-Clark third party, both are too intelligent and realistic to know what the outcome of that would be.

[polpilot]

55. Your case of Kerry as 'ineffective' is compelling. A 'non-representative'?

A 'ghost'? A COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE LEADER?

No ineffective leaders. If after 19 years in the Senate he's unable to voice and move people away from an illegal war then he needs to be fishing, alone, somewhere WAY away from Washington, D.C.

[zoeyfong]

66. Would've changed kerry from a man without principle to one with principle.

[4morewars]

13. DUDE !!!!!!!

We MUST beat bush*. We have to get that prick out. After that, who knows? If a dem wins the job, he's fucked anyway. The rebub congress won't help him, and might even impeach him. It will take 10 or fifteen years to clean up the mess this bush* admin has made. Maybe the time for forming a third party is after November? I don't know, I just cant forget Nader's 97,000 votes in Florida.

[capriccio]

15. Memories

Yes, this sounds like me 1968 when I withheld my vote from old guard, etablishment Hubert Humphrey thus paving Nixon's way into the White House for six years of secret bombings, war on dissent, and undermining the Constitution. My moral vanity was cold comfort then.

So skip the litmus test, vote for whomever the Democratic candidate is, join the party, and help fix the damn thing.

[LandOLincoln]

62. Amen, amen, amen...

and here we go with the "They got the guns but we got the numbers" stuff again, again.

You'd think 2000 would have taught people all they need to know about splitting the Dem/left/progressive vote, and the Rep=Dem and Dem=Rep meme, but noooooo... :grr:

2004 is reminding me 'waaay too much of 1968. (Maybe it's just the DU that's reminding me.)

At least nobody's got shot yet.

[Oreegone]

16. Stop Stop Stop

With the 3rd party BS....the Universe is set up with positives and negatives...good....bad....dark....light....keep it in synch.............

[Leilani]

17. Neither one will

but, but this is all very disheartening.

Clark & Dean brought excitement, which is now sadly lacking.

[QC]

19. What if my Aunt Ethel goes third party?

She's just as likely to win.

[MurikanDemocrat]

28. Vote as you please. But Clark and Dean are not going 3rd Party

Nor will a 3rd Party ever successfully replace the Democratic Party.

[maggrwaggr]

29. well here's a radical idea

maybe this country needs to go further down the road of darkness and ashes in order to transform itself.

Maybe this country needs four more years of Bush and PNAC and neo-cons in order to have its wake-up call.

If Germany hadn't had its ass kicked in WWII think about what it would be like.

If Japan hadn't had its ass kicked in WWII think about what it would be like.

This country is fucked up and it ain't getting better any time soon. That's all I'm saying.

I'm starting to think this country is getting everything it deserves.

America is a scared bully of a country. Paranoid and delusional.

People vote out of fear. This includes the Democrats who are voting out of fear, fear that they might nominate someone who isn't "electable".

It's really kind of pathetic.

[maggrwaggr]

32. if 9/11 and the Iraq "war" wasn't wake up call enough

I hate to think of what has to happen to this country to wake the people up.

It's gonna get real bad.

We're running out of oil and people are buying Hummers.

We just killed tens of thousands of innocent people in Iraq and the news story I kept hearing today was how the elderly are likely to get in car wrecks.

Our president lied to us about a country being a threat and so we invaded it, we started a war for crying out loud, and all people can talk about is some aging pop star's boob.

And the opposition to this LOSER of a president is so timid and scared of this OAF that they think they have to nominate this panderer to run against him.

This country is pathetikkk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I have two words for youq

GREAT DEPRESION.

Now since you mentioned Nazi Germany... THINK what BushCo could do to this country wiht four more years and a Depresion to boot... one caused by them!

I hope you have memorized the Constitution and thet Bill of Rights, as this is all that may remain of the Republic, a mere memory of those documents

Oh and if you think that this country will come out of this dark night a Democracy, I would not bet on it either.

[4morewars]

34. The great depression...

ushered in the most drastic social change in the history of this country, maybe the world !!!
I hope and pray you are wrong nadin, but i have seen this country turn into a police state recently(Miami,FTAA protests), and i think that was just a practice run. These fuckos have a plan and it's not pretty.We have to stop them!!! WE HAVE TO !!! If we don't, I shudder to think of the consequences.

[Hekate]

40. Good point. Further, it was economic devastation in Germany...

...after WW I that fueled Hitler's rise and the rise of the Nazi party. (Truman was one smart cookie to have the US assist in rebuilding Germany and Japan after WW II, as they ultimately became democracies and staunch allies instead of continuing as bitter and impoverished enemies.)

As to our country, we are not immune to social forces like that. A couple of weeks ago I overheard a teenaged boy talking to his mother about the spate of anti-Bush books (we were in Borders). Turns out the kid really likes the idea of the US being the biggest and baddest hombre around, thinks it's "our time" and so on. He likes Bush's foreign policy just fine. To her credit, Mom was trying to insert some broader perspective between his ears, but he was not persuaded. Wonder how many other adolescents (in temperament if not in years) in this country are attracted to Dubya's adolescent bragadoccio despite the economic harm he's doing to them.

Hekate

[zoeyfong]

68. You seem to believe that kerry would prevent this. Evidence?

[zoeyfong]

67. True, we are at the 11th hour, and dems nominate a spineless poser.

[MurikanDemocrat]

35. I'm not going to talk you out of voting 3rd Party

I just think it's a cop out.

And I've heard the "it has to get worse before it gets better", scorched earth argument a hundred times and I still think it's bullshit. It will get worse and WORSE.

You think this election has to be about restructuring the Democratic Party. The vast majority of the rank and file of the Democratic voters see this election as being about getting the worst sonovabitch neocon that ever set foot in the White House out before he can do FAR, FAR, FAR more damage. And he CAN.

I think we DO need some reforms in the Party, but I don't agree with that this election should revolve around restructuring the Party. That's an unrealistic expectation. It will take years, even with a Democrat in the Presidency, and that only if we get some support in the House and Senate. Right now they still have a Republican majority.

There HAS been a dramatic shift to the right over the last generation and I don't like it either, but change isn't going to happen overnight, or even in 4 years. It will take 10 years to undo SOME of the damage Bush has done IF we get a Democrat in the White house and KEEP one there.

If Bush makes the next USSC appointments, as well as numerous other judge appointments, we are FUCKED for the next 2 generations, AT LEAST!

Worse before it gets better, my ass. And by then there STILL won't be a viable 3rd Party.

And BTW, people are not voting out of fear. They are voting out of anger - at Bush. They are not afraid of voting for someone unelectable. I think they are quite confident in their choices. I think we need to put to rest this notion that people who make choices that others disagree with are "sheeple" or stupid. Intelligent people disagree.

[Old and In the Way]

36. Amen.................I think we are far more united then some of the

posters here realize.

I undersand that there's going to be post post-partum blues, but I also think that the grand arguments we are having amongst ourselves is the preference of instrument used to effect change.

Personally, I totally believe Kerry will be our best possible candidate to usher in sweeping changes. He's totally onboard with the sources that have created a 30 year hidden agenda of RW terror internally and externally. Clinton called him off in the 90s. I suspect that he'll press to confront a lot of the stuff that's been festering without resolution for this time. He's also understanding the source of our real problem...our energy policy. I think he will use the power of his office to make the case for a new energy policy that will be job intensive. A completely new energy policy will require evolutionary changes in our infrastructure, too.

You want change? Hang on to your hat, cuz I think Kerry is going to bring us more change than we even realized was possible.

[Claire Beth]

86. well stated, murikandemocrat!!!

:hi:

[bobbieinok]

60. 'we had to destroy the village to save it'

infamous US military quote from VN war

1968 - purists didn't vote for HHH; country got Nixon

2000 - purists didn't vote for Gore; country got W9

I KNOW - constant anti-Gore media bias, republican playing with the vote in FL - BUT vote was so close at least partly because of dems not voting for Gore in FL

[maggrwaggr]

77. the destruction is about a symbolic death and a rebirth

it's basic Joseph Campbell.

I see the Iraq invasion as the beginning of the end for the United States.

We can either turn into imperial Rome, or we can turn into modern-day Europe.

Which would you prefer?

Right now, the citizens of the U.S. seem to be fiddling while the dry brush is smouldering and ready to erupt.

Nothing, it seems, will wake them up except destruction.

This country deserves what it's getting. I'm ashamed to be a citizen of it.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

82. "Maybe this country needs four more years of Bush and the PNAC.....

.....and neo-cons in order to have its wake-up call."

That's the kind of logic the Communists in Germany used against the Nazis back in the 1930s.

I repeat this country cannot afford four more years of George W Bush.

[maggrwaggr]

84. and Germany is better today because of it

If WWII had never happened, what would europe by like today?

Think about it .......

[Hekate]

37. We'd have four more years of Bush-Cheney-Rove-Rumsfeld Inc.

Thank you so much. Four more years of THAT. By 2008 our country may be damaged beyond recall.

Our system is what it is. We don't have coalition governments, we have winner take all. We don't have direct democracy, we have the Electoral College, which is also winner take all. We don't have a viable third party, all the power resides in just two parties, and those two parties are the Dems and the GOP.

Things are not looking good in our country right now. During BushCo's first year in office I reflected many times that NOT ONE DEMOCRAT would have done to our country what he has done: from his first day in office it has been like a juggernaut 24/7, rolling back EPA protections, trampling on scientific and educational progress, and eroding a woman's right to make her own reproductive decisions. After 9-11, I believed that no Democrat would ever have fallen so low in terms of the destruction of our civil liberties and of our international network of treaties and alliances.

I finally got to listen to Dean's speech tonight, just about an hour ago. I'm looking forward to what he will do next, but for now he is not running for president. I'm going to do as he suggested and cast my vote for him on March 2 in hopes of sending some delegates to the convention to speak for me.

I don't much like Kerry either -- I think you are correct about his being old guard and all that. But I can't forget what BushCo. has done to us in the short years they've been in power, and I still believe that NOT ONE DEMOCRAT would have done as much damage. So when it comes to the GE I'll vote for the Democrat, not a third party or a splinter group. The US is as divided today as it was in 2000, and our fortunes will be decided by the slimmest of margins once again.

Hekate

[Piperay]

38. If Clark went third party

I would know that I had backed the wrong candidate all along, someone who didn't care about his country the way I thought he did. I would NEVER vote third party, that would only help give chimp another 4 years longer to destroy this country.

[mouse7]

39. You'll do what is necessary to send Dumbya back to Crawford

Howard Dean had more invested in the Dean campaign than you did. Dean is going to support the nominee of the party. I'm sure you'll see the wisdom in doing that as well.

[Lexingtonian]

41. Gee

That iron-willed commitment to get rid of Bush evaporated in a hurry.

And about IWR, the principled way of dealing with the horse being gone is to weld the barn door shut and burn the whole thing down?

[REP]

42. I Don't Believe Either Would Do That

Both Dean and Clark strike me as too damned smart to piss of their supporters by running as third party candidates, splitting the vote and handing Asswipe* a second term. I think both men want (and deserve) positions of power in the Democratic party, and a third-party run would end any chances of that, as well as alienate everyone who doesn't want to see Bush* get another crack at destroying our economy, our country's international goodwill and respect, and possibly the planet.

I'm not thrilled about the possibility of Kerry on the ballot, but if he's there, he has my vote. As Dean said, any of the other candidates are better than Bush.

[Guava Jelly]

43. as a staunch clarkie

I would loose all respect for the general if he went third party.
Any respect i had for Dean would be gone.

THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
THIRD PARTYS ELECT REPUBLICANS
am i clear

[bowens43]

49. You're clear but you're also wrong.

Towing the party line , blindly accepting any candidate because of his political affiliation is what put us in this mess in the first place. Each election cycle the differences between the two parties become smaller. It is never wrong to vote your conscience. A vote for a third party is not a vote for bush and it is not wasted. Third partys do NOT elect Republicans, to say that they do is just plain silly.

[DeepModem Mom]

44. You're on the wrong board if you vote third-party,

because you're voting for Bush. These third-party threads are frightening and depressing. This is not just any year; we're on the brink of losing this country. If you think the country's "broken" now, you ain't seen nothin' yet, once we get into a second Bush term, with a compliant Congress, and Republican Judiciary.

Sorry, I've made it a point to be unfailingly polite and fair-minded in every post I've made since I came to DU, but I've had it. I know your intentions are sincere, but to my mind, they are dangerously wrong-headed. Please vote one more time for a flawed Democratic nominee.

As someone who's been vocal in my opposition to the Bush regime, I feel I've risked a knock on my door at some future time, and I accept that risk, but I fear for my family in a right-wing extremist, one-party theocracy -- and I fear for all registered and posting here.

[bowens43]

52. Wow

First , this site isn't just for Democrats. It's for Democrats, liberals and progressives. Second a vote for a third party is NOT a vote for bush, to say that is, is ridiculous. A vote for a third party is a vote for a third party. Nothing more , nothing less. Your point in invalid. It demeans the electoral process and more importantly it demeans the principles of those who place more value on substance then on winning. The win at all costs attitude espoused by so many is what got us into this 'the lesser of two evils' mess.

One party theocracy? Whether you admit or not, whether you know it or not, that is EXACTLY what you are advocating. Each year the differences between the two major parties become less.

[DeepModem Mom]

54. I appreciate your sharing your thoughts, and respectfully agree...

to disagree strongly with them.

Best,
DMM

[Sly Kal]

45. Many people will vote for Dean

Where ever he is on the ballot, people have said they will vote for him. In the meantime they will work to elect progressive candidates to the senate and congress. Very few people will go to Kerry because of his role in the osama and other attack adds. Some people will go to Edwards, more than will go to Kerry, but not enough to change the race unless Edwards offers something major to Dean in the way of platform planks or position.

[maddezmom]

47. Neither one are going to run 3rd ticket n/t

[union_maid]

48. You have to ask what Kerry would have done

What would he have done if he were president? What would any of them have done? I believe that Kerry wouldn't have gotten us into this mess to begin with. We'll never know for sure. How would Clark or Dean have voted on the IWR? We'll never know that for sure either. I think that's what Clark was trying to say when he made his first famous "gaffe". He wasn't walking in the senators' shoes at the moment of the vote. Neither was Dean.

However, the war is at the root of a serious reservation that I have about Edwards and that I did have about Gephardt. Kerry was all over this thing as soon as it became clear to him that the Bush administration was doing this all wrong and doing it for the wrong reasons. Edwards and Gephardt continued to be enthusiastic about it. Up to then, Edwards had pretty much been my favorite and one guy who I hoped would run before he threw his hat in the ring. His continued support for what Bush was doing changed my views of him a bit. Doesn't take away the good and important things he's saying, but it's a big negative.

[molly]

51. I think both of those fine gentlemen

are smarter than that and this country means more to them than that.

[krkaufman]

53. NOT a possibility.

At least one of those in your pairing isn't fully not sane enough to participate in that suicide pact.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

58. They're not going to

Sorry. Simple as that.

[Lefta Dissenter]

59. There are a lot of us who are pissed,

and getting bush out of our White House is the first step in repairing our country. You ARE in denial if you claim that a third-party vote is not a vote for bush.

Listen to Dean. Listen to Clark. Why the hell would they both insist that we support the Dem nominee if it weren't important?

And it's so easy for people on this board to say, "Well, the country just has to get more fucked up before it can get better." Well, YOU don't have kids who are of draft age! You don't give a fuck about the environment. You don't give a fuck about the right to choose. You don't give a fuck about democracy and dissent. You don't give a fuck about our country if you choose to throw away our government and risk what I fear may be civil war.

I'm sick of trying to be nice and diplomatic on this board. We have thrown away our best opportunity to have the greatest President in generations, and I'm pissed about it! But I'm not about to lie down and kiss bush's ass just because I didn't get my way. This is bullshit. GET OVER YOURSELF!!! When we have our nominee, you'd better bust your ass to get him elected, because it's our ONLY HOPE for beginning to save our country!

[MrSlayer]

63. Well said and absolutely correct!

Most of these selfish people are going to be the one's drafted and dead because of BushCo. Where will their idealism be then? Buried with the rest of their corpse somewhere in the desert. Wake the Fuck Up!

[zoeyfong]

69. Prove that kerry is significantly better than bush.

You say,
And it's so easy for people on this board to say, "Well, the country just has to get more fucked up before it can get better." Well, YOU don't have kids who are of draft age! You don't give a fuck about the environment. You don't give a fuck about the right to choose. You don't give a fuck about democracy and dissent. You don't give a fuck about our country if you choose to throw away our government and risk what I fear may be civil war.

I think we do give a f**k about these things, we just don't see kerry doing a whole lot about any of them. It's not like it's a choice between a really good dem candidate and bush, and we're going 3rd party. I'm sorry, i just don't share your optimism about what a kerry presidency could accomplish. He has already shown that he is a follower, not a leader.

[arwalden]

61. The War Would Have Happened Anyway.

It was a calculated political trap that was designed to make anyone who voted against it fall prey to being labeled as "soft" when it comes to getting back at the demon saddam who was "responsible for 9-11". John Kerry made a wise move. That's how politics go. That's how the game is played. People don't always get what they want. People must look at the big picture.

Only the most naive people believe that a no-vote would have made a bit of difference in whether or not we went to war.

People who think this way are reckless and selfish and I suppose are still grieving and coming to terms with their loss. They appear to be looking for a scapegoat and someone to "get-back" at and to be the target of irrational anger and verbal temper tantrums.

For those who are angry about the war... BUSH's WAR... a war that was planned from week-one, they certainly have a VERY ODD way of showing their disapproval. Why would anyone cast a vote that would ultimately HELP BUSH to stay in power?

It just boggles the mind how immature and petty some groups of people can be. It's an irrational anger that feeds on itself.

Obviously the desire for attention... the me-me-me factor... can easily be seen in the ABUNDANCE of these types of "I'm-gonna-punish-the-party" antagonistic threads.

It just boggles my mind.

-- Allen

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

87. Sorry You Feel That Way, Maggrwaggr

Of all the people running for president, only TWO of them actually stand a chance. I choose to vote for the BETTER of those two men.

Others choose to be naive and reckless. The choice is theirs to make. One-issue voters are selfish focused on one piece of the puzzle and are apparently incapable of grasping the whole picture.

I do find that to be damned odd behavior when someone shouts that they have "values" and "standards" (ad-nauseum) yet their very actions serve to BENEFIT the one candidate who is the antithesis of everything that they claim to hold dear.

-- Allen

[SinkingInTheRain]

70. It's time to rewrite the Democratic party

Every 4 years it's the same old thing; let's just defeat "______" and *then* we will clean up our act. Then the act never gets cleaned up. After what was done to Dean I say we start NOW to clean up the act and we act now!

[rocketdem]

71. What would I do?

I'd be disappointed with both of them and then I'd go ahead and vote Dem. Any vote made but not made for the Dem ticket is a vote for Bush. Period.

[bitchkitty]

73. I'm voting against Bush in the GE -

I won't be voting in the primary because I don't care which one wins now.

I am no longer a Democrat. I don't care who gets the nomination, Kerry or Edwards - it makes no difference to me. I'll vote against Bush in November, as no doubt a lot of us will. This round, fear wins. Next round, if I live that long, whoever gets my vote will get it because he or she earned it.

Since Selection 2000, and especially since September 11, I've watched in dismay as my party became, for the most part, a flock of ineffectual, cringing bush-ass-kissers, until Howard Dean spoke up and gave me hope. Wednesday saw the death of that hope, and I no longer believe that America will ever significantly change.

[Skip Intro]

74. It'd make voting Dem 04 REALLY hard.

Really, really hard.

[Adelante]

75. Clark's not going third party

He is working within the Democratic Party. He's made this clear.

[HuskerDem]

79. Isn't going to happen eom

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

80. It would be suicide.

Would you rather have 4 more years of Bush?

Plus I agree with you that you are most likely in denial.

Both Howard Dean and Wesley Clark have vowed to support the eventual democratic nominee so I think your third party scenario is highly unlikely.

[retyred]

83. What if?

retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[Claire Beth]

85. Sounds like you are voting for Bush!

Because the FINAL result of a vote for anyone other than the democratic nominee is going to be just that! I'm not exactly pleased with everything about the primaries either, but I know how critical this upcoming election is to us, our children and future generations.....Sometimes you just gotta hold your nose and do the right thing even if we aren't always thrilled about it.

[WI_DEM]

88. it won't happen, but

if it did I would be highly tempted to vote for that ticket.

[ScreamingMeemie]

89. I don't think it would be a good idea. For one main reason...There is

not enough time to gather the people together to make a run at forming a viable third party. That's not to say it shouldn't or couldn't be an option in the future. Right now it would just pull votes away from the eventual nominee. And I cannot stomach the thought of another four years of monkey business.

:hi: