immigration and ethnic cleansing

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

No politician on either side will want to point this out (and with good reason), but it is an aspect of the immigration debate that ought to be noted.

About half of the Republican party supports policies and campaign appeals, explicit or implicit, promising to get illegal aliens out of the USA. Saner people note that deporting all illegal residents is impractical.

But, practicality aside... In the modern civilized world, nations are not allowed to forcibly relocate 12 million members of an ethnic minority. It is called "ethnic cleansing."

Imagine if Serbia had said, "we are only relocating these people because they broke the rules to be where they are, and they don't have the right papers." Nobody would have given a shit about the details... everyone would have said, "You cannot load millions of members of an ethnic minority, or anyone else, really, onto trains and relocate them. Period. We had had a bad history with that sort of thing."

[polichick]

1. Those here illegally are not all from one country...

And they're not all members of any one ethnic minority ~ nobody is suggesting anybody be deported because of his or her ethnicity.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. Most of the pro-deportation crowd would disagree.

Of course you are literally correct, but the republicans talking about deportation are talking about Hispanic people in general or Mexicans in specific. That's the political issue, and the facts be damned.

From a molecular biology standpoint I suspect that Hispanics are not an ethnic group, but as a political matter Hispanics are an ethnic minority in the US.

The fact that nobody is suggesting (publicly, in so many words) that anybody be deported because of his or her ethnicity is largely irrelevant to the question, since the world community isn't real interested in the reasons provided by the acting party when criticizing ethnic cleansing.

The practical result of Tancredo's rhetoric would be forcibly loading ten million people with a common linguistic heritage and browner skin than the anglo norm onto freight cars.

Whatever WE may think about it, the world will not hesitate to to recognize it as ethnic cleansing. And it would forever serve as a justification to ethnic cleansing regimes around the world. It would do for ethnic cleansing what we have already done torture and wire-tapping.

[iverglas]

7. you raise an issue worth talking about

But I wouldn't state the case quite so categorically. ;)

In order to see the current situation in its proper perspective, one has to go way back in history to when the US and Mexico took on the geopolitical forms they have today. And I'm not sufficiently versed in that history to do the job, but you might want to pursue it.

What did happen was that a people was divided by artificial political boundaries. The border drawn did not reflect that people's concept of itself as an entity, characterized by common ethnicity, culture, language, religion, etc., or the concept of individuals of themselves as members of that collective entity.

So to the extent that the border can be seen as irrelevant to the existence of a people, and an artificial and involuntary separation of that people, it is, in itself, a violation of that people's collective right to self-determination and of its members' right to associate freely with other members.

I'm stating the case -- not arguing it. ;)

But I think it's obvious that all this history can't be ignored in trying to solve the problems it essentially created.

[speakclearly]

8. We had an amnesty in 1986

That amnesty legalized the illegal aliens already in the US despite ethnic, cultural, religious, linguistic, or religious background. By this, it negated any injustices that might have resulted as a result of "artificial borders". It gave all residing in the US a "home". They were no longer illegal and would not be deported.

Now we are having to deal with a new crop of illegals. People who were not in the US when the borders were established. People who came here but have no historical tie to the place in the US where they are now residing. These are truly "uinvaders". They broke existing law and came here knowing that they were avoiding the laws of this nation.

These illegals should return of their own volition to their native territories/nations, despite where they originally came from and reside in their historical and family homeland. Only half of these people are of Hispanic or American Indian heritage. The other half are from diverse nations. They should all return.

If those people do not want to return, then we should provide incentives. We should take action to crack down on the corporate conspirators that are assisting them in violating the laws of the nation. Businesses, landlords, and service providers that conspire with illegals simply to make a buck off their situation should be fined, and after repeated violations, shut down. With few other options, most illegals will return voluntarily. Those that do not return by themselves, should be sent back as they are apprehended for other types of failure to abide by existing US law. Drug dealers, drunk drivers, crooks, rapists, etc. should be incarcerated without bail (since they clearly represent a filght risk, the standard for denying bail) until they are forcibly returned to their native land.

Its a simple case of law enforcement. We expect our fellow citizens to follow the laws of the land, and they expect the same from us. EVERY law-abiding citizen should support compliance with existing law, and hold those who do not obey the law accountable. This includes immigration law.

[iverglas]

10. okay, sorry

I know the concepts -- peoples, collective rights, culture, blah blah -- are things that people in the US are especially unused to. (They're part of the common discourse up here in Canada and many other places in the world.)

Amnesties for illegal immigrants really have nothing to do with what I was saying. You didn't understand what I was saying, and we'll probably best leave it at that.

[earthside]

2. But they should go home.

An illegal alien does not have the documentation to legally get a job in the United States.

No job, no income ... time to go home, right?

When those folks in other countries finally understand that they will not be able to get exploitive wage jobs here unless they get in legally, then the incentive to cross illegally will be gone.

That's what we need to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. That is why you FINE the corporations that hire them

and make it economically not viable

No jobs, they won't come.

Yes, it is that simple

That will not happen... because they need the cheap labor

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

5. Removing incentives as you describe is certainly more practical than Tancredo's notion

[WGS]

6. This is what ethnic cleansing looks like

If you have something comparable that you can show that involves illegal immigrants in the US please post it.

[LanternWaste]

9. That's merely part and parcel of what it looks like.

That's merely part and parcel of what it looks like. And to get to that one particular scene, career clerks, administrative assistants, supervisors, memos, lists, paperwork, justifications and righteous rage are all needed first.

You've probably already seen pictures of those and don't need a link for it, I imagine...